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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There and back again my preciousss
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Does anybody want to discuss The Hobbit (part 1 of 3).
I think I'd say that if you've seen the LotR trilogy and the Jackson King Kong, and know that they've expanded The Hobbit into a trilogy, it's about as surprising in places and predictable in others, as fun and as padded as you're expecting.
At one point Galadriel, who I'm sure you remember from the original book, asks Gandalf why he brought Bilbo along. Gandalf says something about it not being big epic sweeping gestures that defeat evil but day to day acts of love and kindness. That's nice. But if that's the message, why is the film trying its hardest to make everything epic?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
But if that's the message, why is the film trying its hardest to make everything epic?
THANK YOU!
Also, Sam is the hero of LOTR, and no film maker ever seems to get that. Thank you for listening.
[ 03. January 2013, 22:06: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I though LOTR the movie cocked up Frodo as much as or more than Sam. Frodo, as portrayed in the film, was a scared child, I don't think Elijah Wood ever had a confident look on his face the entire time.
ISTM, in the book, Frodo and Sam are a composite hero.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, in the book, Frodo and Sam are a composite hero.
I can buy that. I can't buy the consistant relegation of Sam to adoring sidekick. The man-- hobbit-- wrote huge parts of "The Red Book" and composed gorgeous lyric poetry on the spot. It wasn't just certain acts Sam did that made him part of the hero composite, it was who he was.
(now imagining the result if someone had handed Miranda July the script...)
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
[ETA Sorry! End Tangent!]
[ 03. January 2013, 22:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Rhythm Methodist
Shipmate
# 17064
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Posted
Myself and Mrs. Rhythm Methodist watched "The Hobbit" and enjoyed it rather a lot. Perhaps not one for the purist - there was a lot of padding, as Dafyd suggest. But I found the major deviations from the original strangely more acceptable than I did the comparatively minor ones in LOTR. I think that's because there's a need to radically alter a short book in order to make it a three-part epic. The changes in LOTR seemed unnecessary and vaguely irritating. I suspect money is the driving force behind making it an epic.
@Kelly Alves - bang on, regarding Sam being the hero of LOTR! You jogged an old memory - I'd written about just that back in Jan 2002, while making a point about Christ. For your enjoyment (though at the risk of annoying others) I've dug out the extract:
"Had the movie-makers wished to experiment with a different value for heroism, they needed to look no further than The Lord of the Rings. Those who are familiar with the book (and my apologies to those who are not) will know that the real hero is Sam the gardener. The success of the quest crucially depends on Sam at several points, but he is the antithesis of the Hollywood hero. Undersized and slow-witted, he has no wizard’s power nor Elven sword to bring to the fray. He has no momentous agenda - the defeat of Sauron and the restoration of the monarchy are the concerns of the more conventional ‘heroes’. Sam’s motivation is his love for his master. He goes on the quest voluntarily - as a servant. Facing every kind of danger, and armed with little more than faithfulness and determination, he nonetheless plays an imperative role in the Grand Design - and he does it all for love".
"Of course, the self-sacrificial Sam will not be portrayed as the primary hero in the final movie instalment of Tolkien’s book. We know this, because - though the film is on celluloid - the heroic format is engraved in stone. Sam’s brand of heroism is simply not tried and trusted box-office material".
Posts: 202 | From: Wales | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
BRAVO.
I guess the reason it bugs me so much is that ignoring that-- and ignoring the simplicity of Bilbo, too, for that matter-- tears apart ideas that seem (to me) particularly dear to Tolkien's heart.
[ 03. January 2013, 23:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
I went prepared to be disappointed, but surprisingly, was not!
It's been a few years since I read the book, but my memory was jogged in a good way watching the movie.
I think PJ did a marvelous job with both the story and the beauty of the film. His interpretation of Smaug was so much better than what was in my head as I read it to a very small Daughter-Unit, and those times I read it just for myself.
So, what I want to see is The Silmarillion. I double-dog dare PJ to do it without providing a spread sheet for all the movie-goers. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Do NOT let Peter Jackson hear you mention the Silmarillion! Though a shorter book than LOTR, it contains the seeds of many, many movies. If he can make the hobbit three movies, we would need be elves to live to see all the parts to that.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
But if that's the message, why is the film trying its hardest to make everything epic?
Yes, yes, yes.
Before even seeing the film, myself and some other friends had exactly those misigivings. The Hobbit novel is not anything like LOTR in tone and style, but having 3 movies pointed to an attempt to turn the Hobbit film into a second LOTR film.
And while I didn't hate the film by any means, those misgivings were definitely realised. This was designed for fans of the LOTR films to give them another set of LOTR films.
But at times it simply doesn't work because the material they are working from isn't the same. The thing that jumped out at me the most, and annoyed me, was that in The Hobbit it appears that people can go through the most ridiculous over-the-top perils and always survive. Massively outnumbered in a battle? Everyone will be fine. Teetering on cliff tops? No-one will lose their grip.
Because the Hobbit has a small band of a dozen dwarves who all have names and who generally get through their adventurous scrapes. The Lord of the Rings is a completely different universe, in which not only do prominent characters die, but there are entire armies of sword fodder available.
It's perfectly possible in the LOTR films to show people on the 'good' side of things perishing. The threats are believable because the threats can be actualised. Whereas I sat through part 1 of The Hobbit knowing full well that no matter what ridiculous odds the good guys faced, there would still be just as many good guys at the end of the film.
[ 04. January 2013, 01:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The shame is, I think the battle scenes could have been more realistic and just as exciting.
Still liked it. And, more importantly for Jackson, still going to see the next.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Having just this moment come back from seeing it, I agree with you Orfeo - the perils were 'cartoon' perils, and impossible to be taken seriously. And the 3D is seriously bad for anyone with vertigo or vision problems... Having said that, I did enjoy it. Visually it is stunning, they got both the elves and hobbits *right* and the dwarves had a genuine culture, which I loved.
I think they managed to keep the simplicity of Bilbo quite well. Better than the LOTR, which as others have pointed out, was really about Sam and his simple loyalty, love, determination and willingness to serve without necessarily understanding the bigger picture. Anyway, I like it, and will watch the rest, but it won't replace the book for me.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I must say, I very much like Martin Freeman as the choice for Bilbo. Very satisfactory casting choice.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
This is true.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, Sam is the hero of LOTR, and no film maker ever seems to get that. Thank you for listening. [/QB]
You mean the hero is not Sméagol? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
(Ponders)
Kinda hard to be a hero when you are a mindless puppet of addiction. Heroism implies a choice. Smeagol is used to a greater good, but choice isn't a big factor in his actions.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(Ponders)
Kinda hard to be a hero when you are a mindless puppet of addiction. Heroism implies a choice. Smeagol is used to a greater good, but choice isn't a big factor in his actions.
I suppose it depends on whether you like your heroes flawed or not.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
They are all flawed, the heroes of the story. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about motivation. Smeagol reaches a place where he is really not self-motivated-- or only barely.
I guess I am just thinking in storytelling terms, not in terms of character development (which might work for Smeagol being heroic) . In terms of the story, he's more an agent of antagonism, don't you think?
[ 04. January 2013, 08:36: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Still waiting for husband to decide he needs a good sleep in a dark noisy cinema. (He doesn't particularly like fantasy films but will go with me so I am not a total Billy-no-mates on my own in the cinema.)
Picking up on the flawed hero theme I wonder what PJ could do with Thomas Covenant?
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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I should say that I am a passionate geeky Tolkien fan (I have all 12 volumes of "the history of Middle Earth - and have read them - and used to be a member of the Tolkien society, and contributed to their newsletter occasionally ).
The LOTR films were excellent - they were not the same as the books, but I loved them. The problem with them, for Hollywood, is that the "hero" character is very complex. Frodo, Sam, Smeagol, Gandalf, and many others, are all partly heroes, and all flawed. It is only because of this that they can achieve what they do. To me, that it part of the fantasticness of the books, that there is no single, ideal hero. There are lots of people in the books who are not hero-material, but who simply do what they believe to be the right thing, without trying to achieve great things. To my mind, this is the core message of those books, if you want books to have a message.
The hobbit is a different book - it is much more a childrens book, and so a much less epic tale. What is more, it is far more about Bilbo growing into the hero that he always was, but didn't realise. And it is far more a pleasant romp across the hills to sort out a dragon, not the epic quest that LOTR is.
The film I really enjoyed (we saw the 2D version on NYE). I liked the extra material that they used from the appendices, filling in more history - this in itself justifies (for me) a longer film than the original book would indicate. The other additions I can accept to make it a more cinematic experience, although I am not convinced that they are necessary.
I am not certain that it justifies three films. Two I can see, but three is wrong. I just hope that the other two parts can match up, but it should still be a pleasant, fun tale, not some grand epic. I do not know whether PJ can manage this, and keep this true to the feel of the book.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, Sam is the hero of LOTR, and no film maker ever seems to get that.
LotR is about heroism and has several different heroes according to different ideals. Sam is one of them.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I saw the Hobbit (2D) with a chunk of family of all ages - that was stressful enough in the getting there and seated!!
I am the sort of person that likes the story to keep moving, so hated the classics in school when they had pages and pages describing the landscape and weather. Likewise I found the scenery lovely but excessive, and the fight scenes overlong. I felt the stretch out, I was told by a friend some of the extras were from The Silmarillion (not read that to know).
I came home to read the hobbit and see where they changed the plot. The film felt very much like trying to be the prequel to LotR with hints of Sauron rising etc and that aspect felt too forced.
So nice enough afternoon, but will wait for the DVD on parts 2 & 3 - at least I get to shout at the screen, or nip out to the loo in a long fight...
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The LOTR films were excellent - they were not the same as the books, but I loved them. The problem with them, for Hollywood, is that the "hero" character is very complex. Frodo, Sam, Smeagol, Gandalf, and many others, are all partly heroes, and all flawed. It is only because of this that they can achieve what they do. To me, that it part of the fantasticness of the books, that there is no single, ideal hero. There are lots of people in the books who are not hero-material, but who simply do what they believe to be the right thing, without trying to achieve great things. To my mind, this is the core message of those books, if you want books to have a message.
The hobbit is a different book - it is much more a childrens book, and so a much less epic tale. What is more, it is far more about Bilbo growing into the hero that he always was, but didn't realise. And it is far more a pleasant romp across the hills to sort out a dragon, not the epic quest that LOTR is.
...OK, you're right, you're right, I am buying into the Hollywood idea of the functional "hero" and The Ring saga (in novel form) really challenges that very idea. Come to think of it, every story I have ever really loved, in film or television or novel, has challenged that idea. Lucas did it, for instance, in the first Star Wars
I guess I just strongly identify with Sam, therefore my ego wants him to get hero credit.
[ 04. January 2013, 19:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The battle sequences and the chase scenes were all too long, boring and implausible, and some of the fighting was unnecessarily icky and gross. (Not to mention the bird shit in Radagast's hair.) I don't object to changes from the original narratives just because they're changes, but I wanted the movie to have something of the tone of the book, and a lot of this movie could easily have been done by the folks who brought us the "Ice Age" movies. I'll probably see the next two installments out of curiosity, probably on Netflix, because this one was really disappointing given the wonders of the LOTR trilogy.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
So nice enough afternoon, but will wait for the DVD on parts 2 & 3 - at least I get to shout at the screen, or nip out to the loo in a long fight...
I read this as "nip out to the loo for a long fight" and was going to type, TMI!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
So nice enough afternoon, but will wait for the DVD on parts 2 & 3 - at least I get to shout at the screen, or nip out to the loo in a long fight...
I read this as "nip out to the loo for a long fight" and was going to type, TMI!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Just meant I wouldn't miss anything important
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
I haven't seen it on the big screen yet, and have mixed feelings about it...making it a trilogy just seems to be holding on to the breadwagon.
I also have mixed feelings about PJ--I loved some of the cinematic grandeur of LOTR, but I have a hard time forgiving him for leaving out the Scouring of the Shire. I have an even harder time forgiving him for re-writing the character of Faramir so badly. In spite of that, I've got the big boxed set of the director's cut and I watch them over and over. I can no longer read the passage through Moria without seeing the movie in my head.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...OK, you're right, you're right, I am buying into the Hollywood idea of the functional "hero" and The Ring saga (in novel form) really challenges that very idea. Come to think of it, every story I have ever really loved, in film or television or novel, has challenged that idea. Lucas did it, for instance, in the first Star Wars
I am not disagreeing with you entirely - accepting that Sam is one of the heroes. It is just that "hero" was a far broader concept, spreading the glory among various of the cast. Sam was an important one of the heroes, or rather, an important component of the multifaceted hero character of the story.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I enjoyed it and I didn't think it "ruined" The Hobbit. I'd rather have seen it in 2D but it was OK. The mini-review I gave everyone was that I could have used more dwarf singing and fewer battle scenes.
I thought some interesting variations from the source material were done with the dwarfs though -- fleshing out the backstory and making Thorin more of a heroic figure. I thought he was being set up as kind of a mini (in all senses) Aragorn, which should make for an interesting ending since as I recall it's not exactly "return of the king" for Thorin. Choosing a really good-looking actor to play him certainly didn't hurt.
Martin Freeman was perfect as Bilbo. I couldn't imagine anyone else in the role.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I haven't seen the film but would watch it just for Martin Freeman. He stole the show in "Sherlock" and I can imagine how well he probably suits Bilbo.
I wouldn't have thought there was really enough material in "The Hobbit" to spin it out into three whole films, though, which suggests rather a lot of liberties with the text.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
As I understand it the Hobbit was written for children as a stand alone book. Then Tolkein expanded Middle Earth and came up with Lord of the Rings and all the other stuff*. Thus a lot of the history just isn't in The Hobbit but Peter Jackson is putting it in which works well for me.
For instance, he's making more of the Necromancer than Tolkein did in the book because in the eventual grand scheme of things he was very significant but Tolkein hadn't decided that when he wrote The Hobbit. In the book he was just a reason for Gandalf to leave the thirteen dwarves for a bit. That's why PJ brought in Saruman, Galadriel and Radagast. I particularly liked the implication at the end that Smaug was a tool of Sauron.
I was also pretty pleased that they kept in touches like the golf gag but the stone giants bit was unnecessary.
I did like the film and its interpretations a lot. 3d wasn't necessary but it seems to be the norm these days.
* Apologies to Tolkein purists for calling the vast history of Middle Earth stuff.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
If I remember correctly the original plan was to have two films - one for The Hobbit story and one for the period between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Having stopped where they did I guess it's just two films for the Hobbit itself.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
I enjoyed it - I did think it could have been a good half hour shorter but it wasn't the end of the world that it was so long.
Radagast really reminded me of Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Picking up on the flawed hero theme I wonder what PJ could do with Thomas Covenant?
Oh please no. I mean, I'd love someone to do something with Thomas Covenant - preferably a TV series - but I don't think PJ would be the one for the job.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Radagast really reminded me of Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Except his rabbits were less deadly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I have an even harder time forgiving him for re-writing the character of Faramir so badly.
I felt a greater disservice done to Boromir There was no sense of the slow degradation of his nobility. The flaw in his character which turned an essentially good man to evil. Granted, that would have been a difficult job in film, but it was barely attempted. That and turning Frodo into a perpetually frightened rabbit.
And in the Hobbit book, Bilbo grows into heroism much more slowly. At the current pace, he will be marching into Smaug's lair and thrashing him with his fists and stroll out wearing dragon skin boots.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I have an even harder time forgiving him for re-writing the character of Faramir so badly.
I felt a greater disservice done to Boromir.
And Gimli was reduced to comic relief, and his growing friendship with Legolas was completely ignored (at least in the first movie; I didn't have the stomach to watch the other two).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
What's the sound quality like? In LOTR, most of the dialogue was muttered while over=loud background music was played.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I have an even harder time forgiving him for re-writing the character of Faramir so badly.
I felt a greater disservice done to Boromir.
And Gimli was reduced to comic relief, and his growing friendship with Legolas was completely ignored (at least in the first movie; I didn't have the stomach to watch the other two).
Well that's why you completely missed the growing friendship.
Still plenty of use of Gimli as comic relief though.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What's the sound quality like? In LOTR, most of the dialogue was muttered while over=loud background music was played.
I didn't notice a problem, Gee D. The dialogue was easy to follow. The Dwarf singing is really good; but there's not enough of it. We also get some Elven music, although no singing.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh please no. I mean, I'd love someone to do something with Thomas Covenant - preferably a TV series - but I don't think PJ would be the one for the job.
To mention the obvious, there's the rape bit. Leaving it out would mess up the plot; leaving it in would be... well, they shouldn't. It's dodgy enough when, as in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, the rapist is presented as a sadistic creep who can't get it any other way.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Frodo, as portrayed in the film, was a scared child, I don't think Elijah Wood ever had a confident look on his face the entire time.
Is Frodo supposed to be confident and not scared?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh please no. I mean, I'd love someone to do something with Thomas Covenant - preferably a TV series - but I don't think PJ would be the one for the job.
To mention the obvious, there's the rape bit. Leaving it out would mess up the plot; leaving it in would be... well, they shouldn't.
The Thomas Covenant series was in my high school library. With all the other "oh yes, fantasy, teenage boys read fantasy" books.
I read that around age 13. You can imagine.
I don't think Thomas Covenant should be in high school libraries, unless it's senior high school or with big stickers alerting as to the content. It actually took me three goes to get through Lord Foul's Bane, which I can't recall happening with any other book. It was so difficult and challenging, starting with the rape bit but there was plenty else that was difficult.
After that, finally getting around to reading David Eddings at about age 17 made Eddings seem like juvenile twaddle.
So yes, I actually like the idea of Thomas Covenant getting translated to film and television (or Stephen Donaldson's Gap series, which is some of the most visceral edge-of-seat stuff I've read, but which also has things that make the Thomas Covenant rape look sedate), but it would have to be done in a very gritty, real, adult way. I think there are television networks that could pull it off.
[ 05. January 2013, 08:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What's the sound quality like? In LOTR, most of the dialogue was muttered while over=loud background music was played.
I didn't notice a problem, Gee D. The dialogue was easy to follow. The Dwarf singing is really good; but there's not enough of it. We also get some Elven music, although no singing.
Thanks - we'll see it when we get back home (no cinemas within coo-ee here).
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The Thomas Covenant series was in my high school library. With all the other "oh yes, fantasy, teenage boys read fantasy" books.
I read that around age 13. You can imagine.
I think I was only slightly older. However, I was hardened by Michael Moorcock.
And possibly other things. Thomas Covenant struck me as being on the grim side, but not so far grimmer than anything else around. Put it down to growing up in the UK under Thatcher - all the creative writers who were any good were feeling less than cheerful.
With hindsight, Donaldson seems adolescent dark rather than adult dark if that makes sense.
[ 05. January 2013, 10:41: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Still waiting for husband to decide he needs a good sleep in a dark noisy cinema. (He doesn't particularly like fantasy films but will go with me so I am not a total Billy-no-mates on my own in the cinema.)
Count yourself fortunate - Mr Nen is the same about fantasy films and refuses to waste his valuable time by coming with me. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I may need to ask if one of my girl friends wants to see it - or wait for the DVD which, as has been pointed out, has certain advantages.
I did have a struggle with the Lord of the Rings films because I love the books so much and felt the films didn't do them the justice they deserved. It wasn't till I heard Peter Jackson honouring the books in the extended DVDs that I was able to accept the interpretation he'd made.
Nen - proud of her LOTR board name.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Still waiting for husband to decide he needs a good sleep in a dark noisy cinema. (He doesn't particularly like fantasy films but will go with me so I am not a total Billy-no-mates on my own in the cinema.)
Count yourself fortunate - Mr Nen is the same about fantasy films and refuses to waste his valuable time by coming with me. I may need to ask if one of my girl friends wants to see it - or wait for the DVD which, as has been pointed out, has certain advantages.
What is wrong with going alone? Beats a grumpy neighbour in the row!!
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
I liked the action scenes - probably because I was there with my 11 yr old grandson who knew nothing whatever about Tolkien. We had prepped him by watching the LOTR trilogy with him over the preceding days, and on the way to the cinema I explained that The Hobbit was written as an adventure story for an 11 yr old boy.
So I think that really helped us to have the right framework for watching it. The slapstick, the corny bits, the swash and buckle, and Barry Humphries doing the Goblin King all seemed to make much more sense with that in mind.
Visually stunning, pace just right for seeing it with a kid - it WAS a kid friendly movie and he loved it. I think PR got it right for interpreting Tolkien to a new 21st century generation. Purists will always be unhappy with anything attempted - but I remember the god-awful attempt done on it in the 1970's. So here's one fan applauding, because we now have another JRRT lover in the family. Given that he's far more likely to entertain himself with electronic gadgetry and a football than a book, I'd say that's a not inconsiderable achievement on the part of PJ.
Thank you Mr. Jackson.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Frodo, as portrayed in the film, was a scared child, I don't think Elijah Wood ever had a confident look on his face the entire time.
Is Frodo supposed to be confident and not scared?
There is a scene in the book where his heroism is so apparent that, after he recovers from being struck down by a troll's spear, Aragorn says he feared they were carrying a "brave, but dead, hobbit" So there is confidence. By contrast, Bilbo's bravery develops more slowly in the book, arrives in fits and spurts and is not fully, beat fists on chest heroic until the battle for the lonely mountain.
[ 05. January 2013, 18:27: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Read "PJ" for "PR" in the above post.
Oh, and if I could make 3 movies instead of 1, that would happily multiply my investment into creating a whole other world, I certainly would. There is plenty of material to work with in Tolkien's writings. I am happy to reserve judgement until all 3 are on the video shelves.
I would have grave concerns about doing another 3 after that though, a la George Lucas.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. 'The Shire!' he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot. There was a bellow, and the foot jerked back, nearly wrenching Sting from Frodo's arm....
'One for the Shire!' cried Aragorn. 'The hobbit's bite is deep! You have a good blade, Frodo son of Drogo!'
After he is hit with the spear, he makes light of his wound, to which Gandalf remarks, 'You take after Bilbo. There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.'
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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