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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Torture, when do we support it?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
In Amrit Singh's report* she documents how the CIA gained the cooperation of 54 governments around the world to support them in "rendering" people, and in torturing them. So the answer to the question "torture, when do we support it?" seems to be "whenever we're asked to". The CIA would appear to be engaged in criminal human rights violations and 1/4 of the governments in the world are accessories and complicit.
What do you think? Can we ever justify this sort of thing?
(* Amrit Singh works for Open Society Foundation of New York.)
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
Link to Amrit Singh's report.
quote:
Snatching people off the streets. Hanging people from the ceiling. A man freezing to death alone on a concrete floor. This is the story of how the United States used its position to cajole, persuade, and strong-arm 54 other countries to take part in the CIA’s post-9/11 campaign of secret detention and torture.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
When we see Jesus incarnate do it.
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
When we see Jesus incarnate do it.
I was going to say NEVER. NOT EVER. But this is an even better answer - at least for Christians.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
But I thought George W. Bush was a Christian, and even had bible studies with his cabinet. Don't mean to be inflammatory here, but maybe I do.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bostonman
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# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But I thought George W. Bush was a Christian, and even had bible studies with his cabinet. Don't mean to be inflammatory here, but maybe I do.
Right, so Christians who don't believe they're guided by God ti invade random countries, then.
A classic case of Matthew 25. I'm pretty sure the sheep aren't saying "Lord, when was it that you were in prison and we hung you from the ceiling with electrodes attached to your testicles?" The goats, maybe.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
Why does torture only ever come up when it involves a trendy target such as the United States?
Torture is intolerable whether carried out by the USA, its proxies, or any of the other numerous countries which perpetrate it - communist, Islamist, Buddhist, post-colonial or whatever.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Why does torture only ever come up when it involves a trendy target such as the United States?
Torture is intolerable whether carried out by the USA, its proxies, or any of the other numerous countries which perpetrate it - communist, Islamist, Buddhist, post-colonial or whatever.
Probably because our government is quite happy to condemn torture in other countries on our behalf, but will never speak a word of criticism against the US and is generally complicit in torture carried out by the US. In a supposdely democratic society the start of changing that is by publically discussing it.
There's also the issue of rank hypocrisy. You (generic you) don't get to go around calling yourself the "leader of the free world" and trample all over human rights. You don't get to say "in God we trust" (and generally imply you mean the God of Jews and Christians not those dirty mozlems) and not get called on actions that go against Christian teaching.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I thought this article about John Brennan, the proposed head of the CIA, the USA spy and apparently torture agency was quite informative. I perceive a complete moral collapse. Torture is good as long as we do it. Brennan apparently has lost any influence from his Jesuit education.
quote:
Torture doesn't matter anymore, at least not to the Barack Obama administration. Four years ago, John Brennan, a 25-year veteran of the CIA, was forced to withdraw his name from consideration to be CIA Director (DCI) because of his public support of--and likely participation in--the Bush administration’s programs of torturing terrorism suspects and/or sending them to foreign prisons to be tortured.
And this is too cute to leave out:
quote:
If confirmed, he would succeed Gen. David Petraeus, who resigned following revelations of an extra-marital affair in November 2009.
So, according to Obama, it's okay to kidnap and torture and kill terrorism suspects without even a hint of "due process of law," but if you put your dick in the wrong person, you're unfit to run the CIA.
[ 08. February 2013, 20:53: Message edited by: no prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
We support it when we can't be bothered to oppose it, --Good men doing nothing and all that.
And the reason most good men/women have done very little to oppose post 9/11 torture is that they,(we), have successfully been made to fear a greater evil.
[ 08. February 2013, 21:16: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
There's also the issue of rank hypocrisy.
Yes, well fortunately that's not a problem with any of the examples which I cited, all of of which are exemplarily humble and honest about themselves.
Pity that the uniquely hypocritical USA couldn't take a leaf out of their book.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
The USA IS uniquely hypocritical. Nobody else comes CLOSE. Although my beloved Britain particularly under my then hero Tony Blair, second only to Churchill, did. Does. And rolyn you are so right. We are SUPINE as OUR Caesar subcontracts out torture in OUR name to paragons like Gaddafi.
Those to whom much power has been given abuse MUCH.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I don’t think there will be too many raised eyebrows when I say that it’s fine by me as long as it does the job it’s intended to do.
I prefer that innocent people be protected from Islamic terrorists (let’s be honest, they’re who we are torturing here), rather than allowing the terrorist to kill those innocent people.
Some innocent people will be tortured of course and that is a shame. Lessons must be learnt and those situations avoided, but we are in a war, and in war the innocent are sometime victims.
Of course, torture is a very inefficient way of getting information, as people will tell the torturer what they want to hear to make the pain stop. Much better are things like sleep deprivation, drugs and multiple interrogations to check for discrepancies, but this takes time.
Hypocrisy and double standards slip down the list of what’s important when people’s lives are at stake.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I find that response outrageous deano. Gee, it's okay and unfortunate if a few innocents are tortured. Some of them also die. Okay, what if it is your brother, sister, father, mother or child? As soon as the line is crossed, then other things also become possible. In retaliation. If the USA can torture, then others who have lesser resources, are they justified with suicide bombings, random murder and terrorism? I think they think so. And the logic is hard to see.
I'm sure we'll see in the future a story of someone who was tortured by Americans who tracks down the torturers and kills them in front of their homes in front of their children. The trial of the murderer would be interesting. Just a matter of time.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don’t think there will be too many raised eyebrows when I say that it’s fine by me as long as it does the job it’s intended to do.
I prefer that innocent people be protected from Islamic terrorists (let’s be honest, they’re who we are torturing here), rather than allowing the terrorist to kill those innocent people.
Some innocent people will be tortured of course and that is a shame. Lessons must be learnt and those situations avoided, but we are in a war, and in war the innocent are sometime victims.
Of course, torture is a very inefficient way of getting information, as people will tell the torturer what they want to hear to make the pain stop. Much better are things like sleep deprivation, drugs and multiple interrogations to check for discrepancies, but this takes time.
Hypocrisy and double standards slip down the list of what’s important when people’s lives are at stake.
Deano we are not inocent victims if we torture or condone any such abuse.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
It also tends to produce a reciprocal reaction. If the West is torturing, say, Islamic militants, what chance do Western troops have if captured?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Jesus was innocent. Tortured. Murdered. By Caesar. Nothing changes.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don’t think there will be too many raised eyebrows when I say that it’s fine by me as long as it does the job it’s intended to do.
"[T]he job [torture is] intended to do" is extract confessions, regardless of accuracy. Thanks for being honest about your priorities.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Some innocent people will be tortured of course and that is a shame. Lessons must be learnt and those situations avoided, but we are in a war, and in war the innocent are sometime victims.
<snip>
Hypocrisy and double standards slip down the list of what’s important when people’s lives are at stake.
Well, when your life might possibly be at stake in some unknown way at some indeterminate time. Other people's lives, not so much.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I prefer that innocent people be protected from Islamic terrorists (let’s be honest, they’re who we are torturing here), rather than allowing the terrorist to kill those innocent people.
Yep, torturing people who are members of a group renowned for their expressions of anger is a really great way to make them stop that group being angry with you. Adds up to me ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
My gut feeling is to reject it entirely, but I think it worthwhile trying to see the other side.
Unless you are a pacifist, you believe it is ok to kill in war, and this will often inflict pain. Plus there will be people who are maimed, psychologically destroyed and other bad things.
But there is an accepted definition of a just war, where a key factor is that the suffering caused is less than the suffering which would have taken place if the war had not happened. This calculation is impossible for most of us to do, but it gives a guide.
I expect that those who approve torture would mount a similar defense. If the pain caused is less than the pain prevented. I do not know if this can ever be the case. A key factor here is the belief that torture rarely produces results, and that it is never a more efficient way of obtaining intelligence. I am inclined to believe this, but I don't know if it has ever been proven.
And of course, there are varying degrees of torture just like there are degrees of nastiness relating to weapons of war: cluster bombs, poison gas etc.
Also, conformity to accepted treaty standards is important if a country is to keep moral credibility.
I assume those who say they would do it if they saw Jesus doing it are pacifists. If not they are playing with words.
I also note that it is widely accepted that torture was never approved in the OT despite the apparent approval of military action and King David is criticised for a specific practice generally taken to be a form of torture.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In any case, the evidence gained as a result of torture is usually inaccurate.
I agree and I said as much in my first post upthread.
I do not care about the responses against my post. It's "us" vs "them", and I am on the side of "us".
The brutal truth is they will hate us whether we torture them or not. They will kill us for simply not being like them. Thus they have to die first, and we have to extract information from them in any way that works. Torture isn't the most effective tool, but it can be quick and useful. It's a hammer, and it has a restricted utility.
That's they way it is.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Jay-Emm
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# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
They will kill us for simply not being like them.
I don't know, they often support acts of terror as well. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
I would not assume that only Muslim extremists might be tortured, nor that only governments commit torture. For example (low-hanging fruit): did the two sides fighting in northern Ireland ever use torture?
I spent some years living in Chicago, where, at one time, there were police detectives who tortured suspects into confessing. Numerous cases have come to light.
I don't really understand (or I hope I don't) the kind of person who would torture someone else and then boast of it. To me, that seems like boasting of rape or arson.
The problem is not only that there are governments that are willing to use torture but that there are individuals willing to take such actions.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In any case, the evidence gained as a result of torture is usually inaccurate. [/QB]
Confirmed by ex-CIA Glenn Carle
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I do not care about the responses against my post. It's "us" vs "them", and I am on the side of "us".
(It's a discussion board. Why on earth post something you won't discuss?)
You say it's "us" against "them". Even taking that at face value, I challenge you to be even vaguely accurate on identifying "them".
Just in the same way the NRA seems to think that the good guys all wear white hats and the bad guys wear black hats, you seem to believe you have some patented way of peering into people's souls. You can't. That's the whole of the problem right there.
You will make far more of "them" by torturing someone entirely innocent. Torture is what stupid people do when they can't think of anything else to do. They think it gets them information. It doesn't. They think it inspires fear. It doesn't - it inspires hate.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
... Can we ever justify this sort of thing?
Obviously not, any more than one can justify cruelty to children or rape. Silly question. Question answered. Nothing further to discuss.
There are two subsidiaries, and I think they are the only two.
1. Many of the countries that most go in for torture, don't at the same time profess a commitment to any higher standards, and
2. In most of the other countries that go in for it, a person cannot write articles in the thinking press calling the state's actions into question.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Except Enoch, the USA, with the help of my country for one, is doing it. And they claim the moral high ground. For all the trumpetting about rights, particularly about guns lately, just makes me so, so puzzled.
Here's an interesting quote.
quote:
Theodor Eicke, SS officer, 01 Oct 1933, as quoted in "In the Garden of the Beasts" by Erikson, as recalled by Rudolf Höss
Tolerance means weakness.... Any pity whatsoever for 'enemies of the State' was unworthy of an SS-man. There was no place in the ranks of the SS for men with soft hearts and any such would do well to retire quickly to a monastery. He [Eicke as formulator of rules for SS concentration camps] could only use hard, determined men who ruthlessly obeyed ever order."
If you read "CIA" for "SS", are we really seeing anything different?
I don't see how constitutions protect people, what due process is, and how either are worth anything.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
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# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... They will kill us for simply not being like them. ... That's they way it is.
No, actually, it isn't. People don't actually wake up and say, "Hey, today I think I'll kill some Americans because they aren't like me." More often, they wake up and find out the USA is killing them. Or exploiting their resources and destroying the land, air and sea. Or arming their enemies. Sometimes the USA overthrows the government they want or supports the one they don't. Many of the people who hate the USA have a lot of good reasons to do so.
It takes willful ignorance of hundreds of years of history around the globe to say "They will kill us for simply not being like them."
I don't subscribe to this "us and them" shit. If I did, however, I would consider it essential to understand the enemy's motivation and goals, rather than pretend they're some sort of mindless, malignant force that cannot be reasoned with.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Of course, torture is a very inefficient way of getting information, as people will tell the torturer what they want to hear to make the pain stop.
How does "information" offered to stop pain help protect "the innocent?" Say I'm arrested and sent to Guantanamo for torture, er, interrogation, but I'm actually innocent (a possibility to which you seem to attach little importance).
To get a little respite from the pain, I admit to things I didn't do, claim actions that never happened, name people who may not even exist, and so on.
How does this pseudo-information and these false confessions protect the lives of "us," whoever that may be? It's all rubbish. Further, this too takes time -- time which could be spent tracking down actual terrorists.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Much better are things like sleep deprivation, drugs and multiple interrogations to check for discrepancies, but this takes time.
These methods differ from torture how, exactly?
Torture does not yield accurate, actionable intelligence. Since that's the ostensible goal of torture -- getting accurate, actionable intelligence -- there can be no justification for its use.
[ 10. February 2013, 00:34: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Torture is wrong. Torture as wrong is magnified when used, or condoned, by nations who condemn it when used against their own citizens by others.
from an article linked earlier
quote:
It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time
The interrogators beat his legs to a literal pulp which caused his death all while thinking him innocent. This is what the culture of torture begets. The bastards did not care even though they thought him innocent!
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Torture doesn't work, Deano. That, totally aside from any moral objections, should disincline you towards it.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
The USA IS uniquely hypocritical.
I don’t know which USA on which planet you are referring to, but if you can believe that the protestations from torturing Islamofascist, communist and other regimes about “religion of peace”, “freedom and equality ”, or “people’s will”, are outdone by any hypocrisy on the part of the USA here on planet Earth, then you are capable of believing anything.
What is more, contra paranoid Chomskyesque conspiracy theories, citizens of the US can and do publicise torture by the US in a way which is impossible under other torturing regimes, and normal people across the world show what their opinion is of the relative merits of the US versus other perpetrators of torture, by risking their lives to escape the other regimes and get into the US.
A great deal of respect is due to individuals and agencies who impartially draw attention to torture globally, but those who don’t really give a shit for victims of torture, but bring up the subject only when it involves the US, as a means of showing how politically correct and fashionable they are, deserve nothing but contempt.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hail Caesar.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Torture doesn't work, Deano. ...
It's not quite as simple as that. Torture does get information. It also gets false information, and those that use it have no way of being able to tell which information is true and which isn't.
Also, every interrogator in history has believed and will believe that they already know what their victim is guilty of, if they can but get them to confess. It's the disease of interrogators everywhere. So if a person doesn't tell the interrogator what they want to hear, it's "So. He denies it", and twist the thumbscrew a bit tighter. "He must be lying. If he were telling the truth, he would admit it".
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Torture doesn't work, Deano. That, totally aside from any moral objections, should disincline you towards it.
Yes. I know. I said so twice.
How many people read ALL the posts in a thread before hitting "Add Reply"? It would prevent people making the same points that have already been made and make things more interesting.
Torture is very inefficient, but it can generate more timely information, though less accurate.
More accurate information can be gleaned by other methods but they are slower.
I'm not going to change my mind, but if you are wondering why, it's because the very thought of standing alongside someone who equates the CIA with the SS is something that simply makes me queasy. I'd rather stand alongside the torturers than alongside those types of people. They have less conscience and less morality than the torturers. Vermin have more conscience and morality to be honest.
[ 10. February 2013, 11:30: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
I suspect that no-one capable of inflicting torture has the slightest interest in guilt or information.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Torture doesn't work, Deano. That, totally aside from any moral objections, should disincline you towards it.
Yes. I know. I said so twice.
How many people read ALL the posts in a thread before hitting "Add Reply"? It would prevent people making the same points that have already been made and make things more interesting.
Torture is very inefficient, but it can generate more timely information, though less accurate.
More accurate information can be gleaned by other methods but they are slower.
And that, as I'm sure you realise, is the #1 drawback to torture: what's the point of 'timely' information that is inaccurate? The '45 minute dossier' was timely and therefore suited Bush'n'Blair's purposes so it was politically convenient although it was inaccurate and bugger all use in the longer term though.
Torture, as you suggest, can only achieve the same ends. The outcome is not intelligence and the procedure is neither intellgent nor civilised.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Torture doesn't work, Deano. That, totally aside from any moral objections, should disincline you towards it.
Yes. I know. I said so twice.
How many people read ALL the posts in a thread before hitting "Add Reply"? It would prevent people making the same points that have already been made and make things more interesting.
Torture is very inefficient, but it can generate more timely information, though less accurate.
More accurate information can be gleaned by other methods but they are slower.
I'm not going to change my mind, but if you are wondering why, it's because the very thought of standing alongside someone who equates the CIA with the SS is something that simply makes me queasy. I'd rather stand alongside the torturers than alongside those types of people. They have less conscience and less morality than the torturers. Vermin have more conscience and morality to be honest.
So you are willing, then, to inflict excruciating pain, permanent physical and psychological maiming, and even death in an effort to get quick access to unreliable and/or false information which is useless in protecting anyone?
You regard this as a reasonable response to threats against safety? And you have no moral problem with this?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In any case, the evidence gained as a result of torture is usually inaccurate.
I agree and I said as much in my first post upthread.
I do not care about the responses against my post. It's "us" vs "them", and I am on the side of "us".
The brutal truth is they will hate us whether we torture them or not. They will kill us for simply not being like them. Thus they have to die first, and we have to extract information from them in any way that works. Torture isn't the most effective tool, but it can be quick and useful. It's a hammer, and it has a restricted utility.
That's they way it is.
Are there any torture methods which you would consider "beyond the pale" deano? Or do you consider that "anything goes"?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm not going to change my mind, but if you are wondering why, it's because the very thought of standing alongside someone who equates the CIA with the SS is something that simply makes me queasy. I'd rather stand alongside the torturers than alongside those types of people. They have less conscience and less morality than the torturers. Vermin have more conscience and morality to be honest.
Well, I personally have not suggested this CIA = SS equivalency. In this case, however, it wouldn't matter if I had.
Once again, you're creating a false equivalency. Nobody is being asked to make a choice between "CIA = SS" and "Torture, maim, and kill people to obtain information which has no value."
It's perfectly possible to have a CIA which upholds the US Constitution. It is also perfectly possible to obtain useful, actionable, reliable intelligence without torture.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The very thought of standing alongside someone who equates the CIA with the SS is something that simply makes me queasy.
I also wonder if it's right to compare water-boarding to flailing someone's skin off with a whip and then, after having had a tea-break, flailing their tendons to pieces with a set of chains.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Well, I personally have not suggested this CIA = SS equivalency. In this case, however, it wouldn't matter if I had.
Once again, you're creating a false equivalency. Nobody is being asked to make a choice between "CIA = SS" and "Torture, maim, and kill people to obtain information which has no value."
It's perfectly possible to have a CIA which upholds the US Constitution. It is also perfectly possible to obtain useful, actionable, reliable intelligence without torture.
I agree but it was No Prophet who set up the false equivalency upthread. You seem not to have read it so here it is for you...
quote:
Originally posted by No Prophet:
Here's an interesting quote.
quote:
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Theodor Eicke, SS officer, 01 Oct 1933, as quoted in "In the Garden of the Beasts" by Erikson, as recalled by Rudolf Höss
Tolerance means weakness.... Any pity whatsoever for 'enemies of the State' was unworthy of an SS-man. There was no place in the ranks of the SS for men with soft hearts and any such would do well to retire quickly to a monastery. He [Eicke as formulator of rules for SS concentration camps] could only use hard, determined men who ruthlessly obeyed ever order."
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If you read "CIA" for "SS", are we really seeing anything different?
So if you are saying No Prophet is wrong then I agree with you. As you say No Prophet has put the SS alongside a democratic insitution designed to protect the innocent. Vile.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano: On the CIA
Hypocrisy and double standards slip down the list of what’s important when people’s lives are at stake.
quote:
Originally posted by SS guy: On the SS
Tolerance means weakness...
quote:
Thus they have to die first, and we have to extract information from them in any way that works.
Any pity whatsoever for 'enemies of the State' was unworthy of an SS-man.
There was no place in the ranks of the SS for men with soft hearts and any such would do well to retire quickly to a monastery.
He [Eicke as formulator of rules for SS concentration camps] could only use hard, determined men who ruthlessly obeyed ever order.
I'd rather stand alongside the torturers than alongside those types of people [who oppose torture]. They have less conscience and less morality than the torturers. Vermin have more conscience and morality to be honest.
So in a way it's you who've made the comparison.
So either that quote actually brings out the 'good' bit of the SS, or No-Prophet has a point.
[ 10. February 2013, 12:29: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
I’m going to go with the NO crowd on this one. Perhaps I’m being naïve sitting in my comfortable house not realising that I’m being kept safe at this moment by people who use torture to stop other horrible things happening. Regardless I just can’t imagine feeling comfortable with torture.
I was also thinking the other day about how useless thought experiments are with this kind of question. The classic being that “there is a bomb planted which, if detonated, will kill hundreds. Torturing one person will give the information needed to stop the bomb. Should we use torture”?
The obvious answer is yes based on the rationale of hurting one terrorist to save lives. But of course in the real world we can’t always be sure where the bomb is, if there really is a bomb, whether the person definitely knows the location, whether they will spill the beans etc. The thought experiment is too simple and doesn’t reflect the messy reality.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
No Prophet has put the SS alongside a democratic insitution designed to protect the innocent. Vile.
Again, I have to say: if it was that easy to sort out the innocent from the guilty, we wouldn't need to torture anyone.
The CIA have, quite clearly, tortured innocent people for information they don't have. The only reason why you support this is that the innocent person they tortured is not you, or someone you care about.
No matter what the CIA were originally designed to do, they have become, in part, what they are trying to defeat, with the connivance of the American people and the complicity of the British. The comparison with the SS, startling as it is, should be a reminder that torture is against international law for a very, very good reason.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
No Prophet has put the SS alongside a democratic insitution designed to protect the innocent. Vile.
Again, I have to say: if it was that easy to sort out the innocent from the guilty, we wouldn't need to torture anyone.
The CIA have, quite clearly, tortured innocent people for information they don't have. The only reason why you support this is that the innocent person they tortured is not you, or someone you care about.
No matter what the CIA were originally designed to do, they have become, in part, what they are trying to defeat, with the connivance of the American people and the complicity of the British. The comparison with the SS, startling as it is, should be a reminder that torture is against international law for a very, very good reason.
deano, can you try answering a few of the direct questions put to you?
1. Do you acknowledge that the CIA uses torture? (Let's leave the SS aside for now, and get back to the main question.)
2. Do you acknowledge that torture, regardless of who uses it, violates international law?
3. Since you've already acknowledged that torture is "inefficient" (your word, not mine), would you advocate other, more "efficient" forms of eliciting information, and (if you would), what exactly would these consist of?
4. Do you believe that US institutions should follow the law which governs them?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... Torture is very inefficient, but it can generate more timely information, though less accurate.
More accurate information can be gleaned by other methods but they are slower....
I'm really having a hard time seeing the utility of obtaining incorrect information in a timely manner. All that does is enable bad decisions to be made more quickly.
quote:
... Vermin have more conscience and morality to be honest.
Dude, you just Godwined yourself.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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