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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: poverty is theft
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Yes. It takes thousands of poor people to make one person obscenely rich.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Am I mad or does the article, in fact, argue the opposite of the OP?
The relevant quote:
quote:
poverty as the result of a kind of robbery
To which I would agree.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Am I mad or does the article, in fact, argue the opposite of the OP?
The relevant quote:
quote:
poverty as the result of a kind of robbery
To which I would agree.
The OP was, perhaps, too cryptic, if you thought I was arguing that the poor were the thieves, rather than the victims of theft.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
No, I am too familiar with your posting to think you would argue such. Although, based on the title, I expected the article you linked to argue such.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I don't quite get where theft comes in, but all this seems to be an undesirable product of democracy - the majority (those who can afford to get by) suppressing minorities (the extremely poor).
The situation is exacerbated by free-market capitalism - is this theft?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I don't quite get where theft comes in, but all this seems to be an undesirable product of democracy - the majority (those who can afford to get by) suppressing minorities (the extremely poor).
The situation is exacerbated by free-market capitalism - is this theft?
It works like this. Hard work creates wealth, but for the most part it is the hard work of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H ......, that creates wealth for X.
See modern China. The newly wealthy are basically those who bought prime land early, ie those who had some wealth tucked away, usually in the form of gold. Now they can afford to develop that land, using the cheap migrant labour from inland China. The migrant labourers don't get wealthy - they are above the official poverty line, but they are working 14 hour days, 7 days a week.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The situation is exacerbated by free-market capitalism - is this theft?
What would you call a system whereby some profit and become wealthy directly because of the labour of badly-paid workers?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am too familiar with your posting to think you would argue such. Although, based on the title, I expected the article you linked to argue such.
I actually thought I was going to get a discussion about Romney saying 47% of Americans don't pay income tax.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
The article appears to boil down to the claim that the poor are being made more poor because they are being charged too much for the services, housing and loans specifically, that they need. The question which follows is: 'What is the alternative?' The regulatory solution is to attempt to reduce the price by direct intervention in the market. This will work for some people, whilst others will be deprived of the service which the entrepreneurs who are providing it are no longer willing to provide. The example of the decline of the private sector housing in New York into slums because rents were insufficient should be a cautionary tale against all such suggestions.
As far as housing is concerned, the provision of affordable housing remains a major issue in almost all developed countries - however if the claims of the article are correct, a far more effective way forward would be to publicise the allegedly large profits being made in an attempt to encourage more provision, which will cause the profits to be competed away. Unfortunately the political environment surrounding the provision of good housing to the poor is so toxic as a result of leftist campaigning, that reputable firms, fearing rent controls, tend to avoid the area. Part of the problem is the visible rents DO need to be excessive in order to allow for the far greater occurrence of failure to pay etc; a 'risk premium' is legitimate - but seldom recognised as such.
As far as loans are concerned, if the poor are deprived by new regulations of their ability to go to this source, they are liable to resort to loan sharks - a far worse fate. Again, encouraging more competition is healthier than cutting off the source for the poor.
But underlying the whole situation is the ignorance and often chaotic lifestyles of the poor. Sadly these are very hard to address, but are the true diseases at the core of the problem. One of the great virtues of the British organisation Church Action on Poverty is that it does attempt to deal with these issues directly.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am too familiar with your posting to think you would argue such. Although, based on the title, I expected the article you linked to argue such.
I actually thought I was going to get a discussion about Romney saying 47% of Americans don't pay income tax.
Does that include kids, nuns, stay-at-home mums and the unemployed as well as Warren Buffett?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But underlying the whole situation is the ignorance and often chaotic lifestyles of the poor.
Thank you for the same cold, pointless, patronage. Have you ever been poor?
You really are a heartless theoretician.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Ender's Shadow: But underlying the whole situation is the ignorance and often chaotic lifestyles of the poor.
Studies with poor people around the world --some of which I took part in-- show a different image: how creative and versatile these people are, finding and managing a whole range of coping strategies in situations where you and I probably wouldn't survive.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, discussing 'the poor' makes me wonder where people are coming from in experiential terms. Are such comments based on some kind of professional or academic work? Or personal experience? Or prejudice?
I grew up in a very poor area of Manchester, and there were definitely some chaotic families, but also there were some who were not, and who did their best for their kids.
So I would say that 'the poor' are not a homogeneous group.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
So I would say that 'the poor' are not a homogeneous group.
Indeed, and neither are the rich.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But underlying the whole situation is the ignorance and often chaotic lifestyles of the poor.
Thank you for the same cold, pointless, patronage. Have you ever been poor?
You really are a heartless theoretician.
One of the reasons why the poor resort to payday loans and loan sharks particularly is that they don't know HOW to borrow from more established lenders; one of the most appalling stories of the credit crisis was the arrangement of sub-prime loans by people endorsed by churches - when in some cases the people would have been eligible for mainstream loans. They also don't know the meaning of such concepts as APR or what resources ARE available from state institutions. The allegation of 'ignorance' is not condemning - these are often hard things to find out, and the segregation of communities by wealth has made this far more of a problem.
'Sometimes chaotic'; again, a statement of fact. And indeed, often there are good reasons for their chaos. Pretending it isn't a reality in at least some cases is just closing your eyes to the facts.
I'm sorry that 'ignorance' and 'sometimes chaotic' makes me sound heartless - it's an attempt to engage honestly with the issues. Describing them as 'stupid' is heartless - that's to assume the problem can't be solved. But ignorance is a soluble problem, though presenting information in ways that are accessible is a major challenge.
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
which will cause the profits to be competed away
The trouble, surely, with any model based on competition is that there are inevitably winners and losers. The winners are those who are best at competing and the losers those who are worst at it. If you're OK with winners and losers that's fine, but the problem is the proposal of a solution to a problem (poverty) which relies on the same mechanism (winners vs losers) that caused the problem in the first place.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The situation is exacerbated by free-market capitalism - is this theft?
What would you call a system whereby some profit and become wealthy directly because of the labour of badly-paid workers?
Theft.
Besides, we haven't even started to discuss the effect of people's jobs being "offshored" to cheaper countries which is often the cause of them being unemployed in the first place. The only option for such people is to take poorly paid insecure jobs wherever they can, if they can find them.
As for the top 1%, well, they just get richer through saving their huge corporations money, and pocket obscene bonuses for their efforts.
Such is the world of free-market capitalism.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
which will cause the profits to be competed away
The trouble, surely, with any model based on competition is that there are inevitably winners and losers. The winners are those who are best at competing and the losers those who are worst at it. If you're OK with winners and losers that's fine, but the problem is the proposal of a solution to a problem (poverty) which relies on the same mechanism (winners vs losers) that caused the problem in the first place.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) Exactly!
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
One of the reasons why the poor resort to payday loans and loan sharks particularly is that they don't know HOW to borrow from more established lenders; one of the most appalling stories of the credit crisis was the arrangement of sub-prime loans by people endorsed by churches - when in some cases the people would have been eligible for mainstream loans. They also don't know the meaning of such concepts as APR or what resources ARE available from state institutions. The allegation of 'ignorance' is not condemning - these are often hard things to find out, and the segregation of communities by wealth has made this far more of a problem.
On the topic of why poor people borrow from loan sharks and payday lenders,
this article is very interesting. Faisal Rahman, the author, runs a finance social enterprise, and works with people in debt. He argues that the financial products offered by mainstream banks are not tailored to the needs of those on very low incomes, and that payday/high interest unsecured loans represent a considered choice (even if it is a choice that costs) on the part of his clients.
This is a long-winded way of saying I agree with LeRoc's point about the creativity and ingenuity with which poor people often manage in desperate financial circumstances.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am too familiar with your posting to think you would argue such. Although, based on the title, I expected the article you linked to argue such.
I actually thought I was going to get a discussion about Romney saying 47% of Americans don't pay income tax.
Does that include kids, nuns, stay-at-home mums and the unemployed as well as Warren Buffett?
Who knows. You'd have to ask someone who actually believes that it's a realistic figure.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am too familiar with your posting to think you would argue such. Although, based on the title, I expected the article you linked to argue such.
I actually thought I was going to get a discussion about Romney saying 47% of Americans don't pay income tax.
Does that include kids, nuns, stay-at-home mums and the unemployed as well as Warren Buffett?
Who knows. You'd have to ask someone who actually believes that it's a realistic figure.
Mitt Romney says so, but we don't know if he's paying income tax either.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
There's a post explaining why people pay no federal income tax by the Tax Policy Center, which is likely the source for the claim. Briefly, those who don't pay federal income tax (actually 46% is 2011) fall mainly into two categories:
- Half of households in the 46% are simply too poor - after the standard deduction and personal exemptions, their income is below the threshold for the lowest bracket.
- Of the rest, about 3/4 are made non-taxable by "tax expenditures" (breaks), mostly such things as exclusion of some Social Security income, extra credits and larger deductions for the elderly, and extra credits for the poor for children, childcare, and earned income.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
This is a long-winded way of saying I agree with LeRoc's point about the creativity and ingenuity with which poor people often manage in desperate financial circumstances.
I am not sure this is altogether fair - Credit Unions (in the UK) offer various tailored services but rarely make much of an impact in their locality.
I suspect the success of high interest payday loans is directly linked to their advertising prominence in the media.
Some people show a lot of creativity in their survival techniques in bad circumstances and too often society seems to make their lives even harder rather than attempting to help and reward them. Many others, in my opinion, are making their lives more difficult because of stupid choices.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
the long ranger: Some people show a lot of creativity in their survival techniques in bad circumstances and too often society seems to make their lives even harder rather than attempting to help and reward them. Many others, in my opinion, are making their lives more difficult because of stupid choices.
Some undoubtedly do, but often it seems to me that the consequences of stupid choices are heavier when you're in a situation of poverty.
I've made some stupid choices in my life, but I've always had some things I could fall back on: my family (who also helped me through financially at times), insurance, access to credit... Many of these safety nets are harder to come by when you're poor.
Some people make stupid choices in their lives, both rich and poor do. But the consequences seem to be harder on the poor.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I suspect the success of high interest payday loans is directly linked to their advertising prominence in the media.
I think it's more to do with the fact that the rates they charge *are* the prevailing market rates for pay day lending. If you look at the charges incurred going over your high-street bank overdraft limit by the amount of a payday loan, you can see that the high-street banks actually charge similar APRs for payday lending. They just badge it as various fees and charges.
The question then is why such a high APR is needed to make a reasonable return on payday lending. Reducing it to a very simple choice, we can either corral high risk borrowers into separate pools, and charge them interest rates that really do cover the risk of default. Or we can accept that lower risk borrowers should accept higher rates (and therefore bear a greater part of the cost of the higher-risk population's defaults). Or we can say that retail lending should as a whole be a lower margin business. Or some combination of two or three of these options.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Some undoubtedly do, but often it seems to me that the consequences of stupid choices are heavier when you're in a situation of poverty.
Absolutely true.
quote:
I've made some stupid choices in my life, but I've always had some things I could fall back on: my family (who also helped me through financially at times), insurance, access to credit... Many of these safety nets are harder to come by when you're poor.
Some people make stupid choices in their lives, both rich and poor do. But the consequences seem to be harder on the poor.
Yes, well said. We're all a function of our choices (good and bad) and fortune (good and bad). Many of us are fortunate to have survived bad fortune and bad choices (or both).
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Awesome OP ! I love it Josephine. As long as Christianity pursues the illusion of pie in the sky when we die via right beliefs then it will fail Christ in the poor.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think it's more to do with the fact that the rates they charge *are* the prevailing market rates for pay day lending. If you look at the charges incurred going over your high-street bank overdraft limit by the amount of a payday loan, you can see that the high-street banks actually charge similar APRs for payday lending. They just badge it as various fees and charges.
I am not a bank manager. However, the point here is that there are people who are surviving on repeated loans (taking one to pay off the last), as a result racking up massive charges.
Credit is not supposed to support a lifestyle, it is supposed to assist in times of trouble. If you need repeatedly to draw on an expensive (and presumably unplanned) overdraft or roll over on your credit card each month or access payday loans, there is a very good chance you're already in debt up to your eyeballs and have a financially unstable lifestyle.
It is a sign of the times in one sense. But in my experience people tend to be overly optimistic with regard to credit and debt and imagine they can carry on with their normal standard of living whilst waiting for a job to turn up. And then when it doesn't, they just get even deeper into debt.
quote:
The question then is why such a high APR is needed to make a reasonable return on payday lending. Reducing it to a very simple choice, we can either corral high risk borrowers into separate pools, and charge them interest rates that really do cover the risk of default. Or we can accept that lower risk borrowers should accept higher rates (and therefore bear a greater part of the cost of the higher-risk population's defaults). Or we can say that retail lending should as a whole be a lower margin business. Or some combination of two or three of these options.
Well, you are right to say that payday loans are expensive because borrowers default, though it would be interesting to see the extent to which defaulting is covered by the fees. I suspect it is actually a form of ursury in which the payday lenders are making outrageous profits from those who can least afford it.
Ultimately, I think your three options are based on a faulty assumption - that people need this kind of credit. In my opinion, many people would be in a far better financial position if they were refused credit earlier, learned to budget (which many credit unions offer to members) and changed their expectations with regard to their standard of living.
In most conceivable circumstances, it is hard to justify why payday lenders are needed at all.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
...As long as Christianity pursues the illusion of pie in the sky when we die via right beliefs then it will fail Christ in the poor.
Whilst I hate that "pie in the sky" phrase - I've heard my ex-C of E priest use it - I'm not even sure what you mean. Are we supposed to reject any beliefs about eternal life altogether, and instead just love our fellow man? Why do we have to choose between the two?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
the long ranger: We're all a function of our choices (good and bad) and fortune (good and bad). Many of us are fortunate to have survived bad fortune and bad choices (or both).
I agree, but I'd like to add that these two factors aren't equivalent. Our fortune influences the gravity and the consequences of our choices.
When a rich guy's fired from his job because he's done something stupid, it's not necessarily the end of the world because he has things he can fall back on. Even if he made a bad choice, the consequences aren't terrible.
When a poor guy's fired from his job because he's done something stupid, it's possibly much worse for him. If he made a bad choice, the consequences are potentially disastrous.
It's easy to point the finger to this poor guy and say: "See? It's your fault, you've made a bad choice." Maybe it is, but the rich guy did too, only for him it doesn't matter.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Ultimately, I think your three options are based on a faulty assumption - that people need this kind of credit. In my opinion, many people would be in a far better financial position if they were refused credit earlier, learned to budget (which many credit unions offer to members) and changed their expectations with regard to their standard of living.
In most conceivable circumstances, it is hard to justify why payday lenders are needed at all.
Well, let's take an example. You are living in long term poverty when your washing machine breaks down. You could do all your washing in the bathtub (although this is difficult, backbreaking and time-consuming). You could take your clothes to a laundrette (assuming you have one in walking distance, if not you will have to find money for busfares, and then the wash will cost you more than you would have paid in electricity in your own home). Or you can replace it.
Even the cheapest washing machine will cost a lot of money. If you have no savings (and if you are in long term poverty you won't have any), then you need to find a loan from somewhere. And that loan needs to be quick, and unsecured, and needs to be a loan that you can pay off weekly or whenever your income comes in, and needs to be available to you even though you have no job/live in rented or social housing/are on benefits etc etc.
You get the loan, and the washing machine. But then something else happens which breaks your budget (and you now have less to spend because of the repayments on the washing machine). Your kids need new shoes, or winter clothes. The TV packs up. You take out another loan.
Now your repayments are eating up more of your fixed income, and it becomes less and less possible to manage. In this situation it is easy to tip into a quick escalation of debt/repayments. But you haven't got there because you are profligate. You have got there because you haven't got the safety net of (even minimal) savings, or family with a bit to spare, or an overdraft from the bank that those of us who are comfortable depend upon to tide us over life's inevitable financial bumps.
In my example, it is not the case that the person's expectations are too high. It is the case that their income is too low.
[ 18. September 2012, 13:22: Message edited by: Niminypiminy ]
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
(sorry, too slow to edit)
My example, of the washing machine breaking down, is the kind of thing that in the UK used to be covered by the Social Fund, which provided crisis loans to people on benefits and very low incomes. However, the Social Fund was scrapped in the first round of the Tories' benefits cuts. Local councils are now supposed to manage a much smaller sum of money which is in no way adequate to the needs it has to cover -- which is why some of them are considering using all this 'extra need' money to fund food banks.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Lone Ranger
Credit Unions give loans, that is what the word "Credit" means in Credit Union. It is basically a cooperative where a group takes out a loan rather than an individual. They work on creating a culture of saving and supporting the person to cope with credit with budgeting advice, addiction counselling and their loans have a smaller interest rates than the loan companies that abound in small areas (maybe higher than the banks though, but the banks aren't open to such people).
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Lone Ranger
Credit Unions give loans, that is what the word "Credit" means in Credit Union. It is basically a cooperative where a group takes out a loan rather than an individual. They work on creating a culture of saving and supporting the person to cope with credit with budgeting advice, addiction counselling and their loans have a smaller interest rates than the loan companies that abound in small areas (maybe higher than the banks though, but the banks aren't open to such people).
Jengie
Yes. Where did I say anything otherwise? I am very well acquainted with how Credit Unions work.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
Well, let's take an example. You are living in long term poverty when your washing machine breaks down. You could do all your washing in the bathtub (although this is difficult, backbreaking and time-consuming). You could take your clothes to a laundrette (assuming you have one in walking distance, if not you will have to find money for busfares, and then the wash will cost you more than you would have paid in electricity in your own home). Or you can replace it.
The sensible option, which most people in that situation around here take, is to use a launderette, of which there are many.
quote:
Even the cheapest washing machine will cost a lot of money. If you have no savings (and if you are in long term poverty you won't have any), then you need to find a loan from somewhere. And that loan needs to be quick, and unsecured, and needs to be a loan that you can pay off weekly or whenever your income comes in, and needs to be available to you even though you have no job/live in rented or social housing/are on benefits etc etc.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if the only option you have to buy white goods is a payday loan provider, then you probably don't need the white goods and you should use a launderette. If you have no job and a low income, there are no circumstances where a payday loan will actually help.
quote:
You get the loan, and the washing machine. But then something else happens which breaks your budget (and you now have less to spend because of the repayments on the washing machine). Your kids need new shoes, or winter clothes. The TV packs up. You take out another loan.
Indeed. And payments your previous loan which you didn't really need is hardly helping the situation.
quote:
Now your repayments are eating up more of your fixed income, and it becomes less and less possible to manage. In this situation it is easy to tip into a quick escalation of debt/repayments. But you haven't got there because you are profligate. You have got there because you haven't got the safety net of (even minimal) savings, or family with a bit to spare, or an overdraft from the bank that those of us who are comfortable depend upon to tide us over life's inevitable financial bumps.
Nope, you're there because you think you need white goods even though your financial situation suggests you can't afford them.
quote:
In my example, it is not the case that the person's expectations are too high. It is the case that their income is too low.
If you can't afford to buy white goods, you can't afford to get a payday loan. It is as simple as that.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No laundrettes without travelling around here on the outskirts of London; £8 return bus fare to get to the nearest one I could think of. When I lived in Dorset on not a lot of money the nearest laundrette was 7/8/9 miles depending on where I lived and not on a bus route for several places.
The local Credit Union will not lend to anyone until they've got a history of saving with that Credit Union, so you've got to plan your poverty and disasters in advance. So someone being made redundant for a poorly paid job with minimal reserves and the car failing or being stolen means 50% of jobs on offer aren't options.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
Long Ranger, I can see where you are coming from, but what if the appliance that needs replacing is the oven? I saw a TV programme the other week where a pregnant lady was severely anaemic, because she wasn't eating good food because she had no oven. She was living off pizza and microwave meals, whilst awaiting funds/oven from the social. Presumably her baby will be born less healthy than the baby of a woman with an oven and access to homemade lasagne, and with his poor start in life will find it harder to excel at school, get a better job, pull himself out of poverty... and all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
It is easy to say that a washing machine is a luxury not
everyone can afford, but there are other expensive items that
are more essential to life and which a person might think justify taking a loan for.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I live in Sheffield on the edge of UPA, there used to be a laundry locally, it closed five years ago long after the ones I knew in Manchester were closed. There is another within walking distance (about two miles away, no the bus is not an option as that is two buses one into town and one out again, perhaps if you have a car it is reasonable) and that appears to be it. There are no city centre ones which is the real deal breaker as all public transport goes in or out of the city centre. So another suburb and you have to get the bus in and a bus out.
A dry cleaners or a professional laundry service is not cost effective.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
angelfish - you don't have to eat ready meals from a microwave. You can bake and cook a lot of things using one, and pizzas really are things that don't work well in one, so long as you don't mind your roast chicken or whatever coming out looking pale and washed out. But you do need to be able to cook, and our schools have not been teaching actual basic cooking since the National Curriculum came in 1995, it's all been food technology.
But microwaves are not good at cooking the really high quality cheap foods - the casseroled cheap cuts of meat or beans or things that need slow cooking.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Awesome OP ! I love it Josephine. As long as Christianity pursues the illusion of pie in the sky when we die via right beliefs then it will fail Christ in the poor.
rubbish!
Two words:
Salvation
Army
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
I stand corrected on launderettes. In my area, I can think of at least 3 within 5 mins walk, more than 10 within 10 mins bus journey. I guess where you all live the situation must be much more difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
[QB] Long Ranger, I can see where you are coming from, but what if the appliance that needs replacing is the oven? I saw a TV programme the other week where a pregnant lady was severely anaemic, because she wasn't eating good food because she had no oven. She was living off pizza and microwave meals, whilst awaiting funds/oven from the social. Presumably her baby will be born less healthy than the baby of a woman with an oven and access to homemade lasagne, and with his poor start in life will find it harder to excel at school, get a better job, pull himself out of poverty... and all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
This isn't about me. However, I can speak from experience: in my family we have at times had to live without white goods. We had more than a year without a washing machine, necessitating several trips a week to the launderette.
We also have had times without a proper cooker and fridge at the same time. We survived using a cheap electric hob. But then as most of my cooking is hob based (I don't actually use the oven much), so it didn't make a lot of difference.
I strongly deny the idea that one cannot have a balanced diet without a fridge or a cooker, though accept thought and careful planning is necessary.
Fridges and cookers are not essential parts of life. Very nice to have, but perfectly possible to live without if you need to.
quote:
It is easy to say that a washing machine is a luxury not
everyone can afford, but there are other expensive items that
are more essential to life and which a person might think justify taking a loan for.
When we have lived on a ridiculously low income, we survived by cutting everything to the bone. We had no car, no fridge, no cooker, we had no TV, we didn't go out, we don't smoke and don't drink.
Again, this isn't about me - but a lot of the 'luxuries' everyone seems to bandy about as entirely necessary are anything but necessary.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
We're all a function of our choices (good and bad) and fortune (good and bad). Many of us are fortunate to have survived bad fortune and bad choices (or both).
Love the compassion and understanding here.
Problem with this quote is "fortune" includes people profiting from keeping others fortunes down. It also implies that much of the "bad fortune" is the result of poor choices. Not only is this utterly simplistic, it ignores concerted, intentional oppression over long periods of time.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Credit is not supposed to support a lifestyle, it is supposed to assist in times of trouble. If you need repeatedly to draw on an expensive (and presumably unplanned) overdraft or roll over on your credit card each month or access payday loans, there is a very good chance you're already in debt up to your eyeballs and have a financially unstable lifestyle.
It is a sign of the times in one sense. But in my experience people tend to be overly optimistic with regard to credit and debt and imagine they can carry on with their normal standard of living whilst waiting for a job to turn up. And then when it doesn't, they just get even deeper into debt.
To your assertion that credit is not supposed to support a lifestyle I need use just one word: mortgage.
In Britain and America an assumption is made that respectable people take the owner occupier route to housing, but to do so about 90% of them have to take out a loan that is some colossal proportion of their salary for most of their working life. I'm sure it is a greater multiple of salary than the deficit is of Britain's GDP and as if that wasn't bad enough they were sold for many years on the back of Ponzi schemes known as endowment mortgages. That racked up house prices so that new buyers had to get heavier mortgages at even greater multiples of salary.
Moreover, if credit was intended for the hard times why is it so much more difficult to get credit when times are hard?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
I've worked with a lot of people living in poverty in my life, and some of them could not use a laundromat if it were right next door. Owning a washing machine is too much to ever hope for.
So things get washed out in the tub--which takes time and effort which could be applied to solving some other problem in life. . .but at the end of the long, labor-intensive day of a person with little money, there will be important things left undone.
I posted here several years ago about a book written about the everyday life of a person with a child living below the poverty line. Even the work of getting services took up so much time that there was basically no down time in life.
We all need a few moments to regroup and relax, but many people who are food and housing insecure, desperately short of money, and trying to follow the rules and regs of public assistance have none of that.
Eventually it can wear a person down.
So one day, they have an extra few dollars (enough for only one load of washing and drying at a laundromat)--but do they have the energy to actually make that investment, knowing that it will result in time taken away from work/money they need to invest in another area of life?
There really is no rest for the weary or the poor, despite the stereotype of how lazy they are.
It is very difficult for those of us not in this situation to know what life is like when convenience is taken out of the picture.
That's why I applaud low-income people I meet who becomes (as has been posted on this thread) creative about how to go about the business of staying alive.
But creative responses take energy, too. And sometimes the best that a person can do is to hold on by the fingernails.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Problem with this quote is "fortune" includes people profiting from keeping others fortunes down.
I agree, although even there to some extent you can make a difference to your own life outcomes out of choice. There are no general cases, I wasn't implying anything - other than that there is a mixture of choice and 'shit happening' in all of our life stories.
quote:
It also implies that much of the "bad fortune" is the result of poor choices. Not only is this utterly simplistic, it ignores concerted, intentional oppression over long periods of time.
Let me be clearer: the exact extent to which a given person is responsible for their bad (or good) situation varies. Some are very much responsible, some are very much affected by things out of their control.
The point is that it is not possible (as some conservatives imply) to suggest that 'with hard work you will succeed' - because many people work hard and do not succeed. Many many poor people work very hard to survive.
But then for the vast majority of people, it is not possible to ascribe all of their fortune to fate. Most people can influence their situation to some extent.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
Posts: 1310 | Registered: May 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
To your assertion that credit is not supposed to support a lifestyle I need use just one word: mortgage.
In Britain and America an assumption is made that respectable people take the owner occupier route to housing, but to do so about 90% of them have to take out a loan that is some colossal proportion of their salary for most of their working life. I'm sure it is a greater multiple of salary than the deficit is of Britain's GDP and as if that wasn't bad enough they were sold for many years on the back of Ponzi schemes known as endowment mortgages. That racked up house prices so that new buyers had to get heavier mortgages at even greater multiples of salary.
I agree. We no longer have a mortgage for this reason.
quote:
Moreover, if credit was intended for the hard times why is it so much more difficult to get credit when times are hard?
Quite, this is the really ridiculous thing about credit - if you really need it, you probably can't afford it. If you can afford it, you probably wouldn't be using it.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
We had more than a year without a washing machine, necessitating several trips a week to the launderette.
How can that possibly be cost-effective? The last time I went to the launderette it cost £6. If you go three times a week that's £18 a week, which means you've spent £180 in ten weeks - which is the price of a washing machine.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
This does all rather ignore the possibility that this hypothetical person's neighbour(s) might have a washing machine that could be shared. But we don't talk to our neighbours any more. Oh no, society is dead and gorn...
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
How can that possibly be cost-effective? The last time I went to the launderette it cost £6. If you go three times a week that's £18 a week, which means you've spent £180 in ten weeks - which is the price of a washing machine.
It isn't cost effective. But if you only have a low weekly income, there isn't much alternative. A pay day loan would mean you had to pay 150% of the loan value within 28 days. If you don't have £180 now, what are the chances you'll have £270 in 28 days? Much more likely you'll have £18 a week, if necessary skimping on washes to make the ends meet.
If you buy a washing machine, you need the money up front and money to put in the meter to keep it running.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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