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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Saint C.S. Lewis?
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
This is a spin-off from the cur4rently-running Lewis Trichotomy thread.
C.S.L. is listed in the Index of Saints' Days at the back of Celebrating Common Prayer (1992), to be commemorated on 22nd November. The Roman typeface indicates that he is included in the Franciscan but not in the Regular Calendar.
This difference sits oddly with the suggestion that he appeals primarily to those of an Evangelical persuasion. Rowan Williams' recently published book, 'The Lion's World' (a study of the Narnia series), goes a long way towards restoring Lewis's reputation as a Christian apologist.
So I wonder: was there ever a move towards commemorating him generally? Is there likely to be one now?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The Episcopal Church's "Lesser Feasts and Fasts" and "Holy Women Holy Men" commemorate Clive Staples Lewis on November 22 -- except this year when Thanksgiving Day falls on the 22nd.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
In my experience (largely of evangelical circles) he is commemorated almost every Sunday as yet another quote of his appears in the sermon!
Since Peter Jackson made the LOTR films, JRR Tolkein gets more than his share of mentions too.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Really? In life, C.S. Lewis was very much considered an Anglo-catholic and wrote against the Ordination of Women. This is the first time I've heard of him as being particularly revered amongst Evangelicals, however useful his quotes might be in expository sermons!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Celebrating saints' days doesn't strike me as terribly evangelical, at least the way evangelicals are in this country.
[eta] To flesh this out: Therefore a list of saints' days will not have been compiled by evangelicals. Thus Lewis's appearance in said book says nothing about evangelicals' reverence of him.
HOWEVER, in this country also, he is, or was back when I was an evangelical, rather quite revered by evangelicals.
[ 04. September 2012, 15:33: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
The reference to Evangelicals derives from a post from The Long Ranger on the Trichotomy thread. It seemed, and still seems, an odd assertion. Anglican Franciscans are hardly Evangelicals.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Organ Builder
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# 12478
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Posted
He was well respected by the Southern Baptists of my youth, before all the moderates were labelled "liberals" and purged. I'm not certain how American evangelical-types view him now, because my exposure is somewhat limited.
He has several advantages for cross-camp appeal, though. Firstly, he was a good writer whose faith (more than his specific liturgical practices) shines through in his books.
Secondly, he's dead. He'll never be able to tell someone "That's not what I really meant!"
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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HCH
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# 14313
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Posted
Is it customary to celebrate an individual on the anniversary of his/her death?
Who makes the decisions to include names in the list in question?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Is it customary to celebrate an individual on the anniversary of his/her death?
Yes, that is when saints are commemorated.
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Lothiriel
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# 15561
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Posted
The (American) evangelicals/fundamentalists of my acquaintance who revere Lewis tend to be more familiar with Narnia, and not so much his apologetics. In the Chronicles of Narnia, they especially like The Magician's Nephew, for its story of a non-evolutionary creation, and The Last Battle, for the resonances with the book of Revelation.
But those evangelicals (again, speaking of the ones I know) who know his apologetics and other writings, such as the space trilogy, appreciate his political conservatism as much as they do his theological stance. They like his conversion from atheism back to Christianity. And they like his theological orthodoxy, even though he explicitly distances himself from evangelicalism.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
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pete173
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# 4622
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Posted
It's customary to wait 50 years - so watch this space in 2013!
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Pete
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Anglican Franciscans are hardly Evangelicals.
Really? Arguably St Francis himself was an evangelical. Certainly the Anglican SSF had equal input from evangelicals and anglo-catholics at its foundation, and many Third Order members come from the evangelical tradition.
Possibly not the sort of evangelicals that venerate the blessed C S Lewis though.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I've come to the conclusion that the veneration of the Blessed Clive by evangelicals is because there are so very few Christians of any stripe who are household names for being explicitly Christian.
Thus, they'll overlook any heterodoxy in order to say "one of us". Other Christians who are less explicitly Christian (Tolkien, for example, or more recently JK Rowling) are suspect because they don't "do God" in their written work.
Watch out for the next time an athlete/sportsperson publicly and repeatedly talks about God. Churches will be falling over themselves to invite them for their next mission week.
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Forward the New Republic
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
In life, C.S. Lewis was very much considered an Anglo-catholic and wrote against the Ordination of Women.
Even now some evangelicals are against the ordination of women. I don't think Lewis was ever an anglo-catholic. He was closer to the lower end of the candle than the upper. I don't think he was properly speaking an evangelical though (*).
He wasn't what would be called sound on a number of key conservative evangelical issues: he didn't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible in a strong sense (he says that some of the sentiments in the Psalms are distinctly unholy), and he didn't believe that pre-mortem acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation.
(*) In the flavour of Christianity sense. He'd have said he was evangelical and catholic in the all Christians should be sense.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I would see C. S. Lewis as an archetypal MOTR Anglican. He values a variety of Christian traditions, and has a mix of views both Protestant and Catholic. You won't find many evangelicals who support prayer for the dead and admit the possibility of Purgatory, for example. More than anything, I get the impression that he very much disliked the factionalism in the Church of England.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Anglican Franciscans are hardly Evangelicals.
Really? Arguably St Francis himself was an evangelical. Certainly the Anglican SSF had equal input from evangelicals and anglo-catholics at its foundation, and many Third Order members come from the evangelical tradition.
Possibly not the sort of evangelicals that venerate the blessed C S Lewis though.
"Evangelical" in the relevant sense here refers to a rather recently evolved group of people. They didn't exist in St. Francis' day.
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I don't think Lewis was ever an anglo-catholic.
His confessor was a Cowley Father and he attended worship at St Mary Magdalen's, and if he went to evensong there, he would have attended Benediction.
He was not a partisan anglo-catholic and would have rejected the term, but he fitted in with it.
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
He hated the sound of the church organ. There would be less of that the lower down the candle he worshipped.
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Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Anglican Franciscans are hardly Evangelicals.
Really? Arguably St Francis himself was an evangelical. .
"Evangelical" in the relevant sense here refers to a rather recently evolved group of people. They didn't exist in St. Francis' day.
Well of course. I was aware of the anachronism. Nevertheless, Francis had many traits that would make him acceptable to 'evangelicals' in a narrower sense (though not of course his devotion to the papacy!), and he has always been revered across denominational boundaries, even if in a sentimentalised version sometimes. My main point is that the Anglican Franciscan movement has a much wider appeal than simply to anglo-catholics.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
He hated the sound of the church organ. There would be less of that the lower down the candle he worshipped.
Really? Guitars etc didn't really take off until well after Lewis died. Musically speaking there wasn't much difference between worshipping traditions across the C of E. Everybody used the BCP (approx) and traditional hymns.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Organ Builder
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# 12478
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Posted
Yes, he preferred earlier services where any organ use would be kept to a minimum.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Disliking an organ isn't necessarily a sign of churchmanship; he might have not liked the sound quite literally. It might've been too loud for his taste, or he just didn't find it appealing as an instrument.
I definitely heard him referenced more often by Evangelicals when I was one than I do now by Episcopalians (though some Piskies really like him).
The Evangelicals of my youth really liked the "liar, lunatic, or Lord" trichotomy, actually. I think they generally liked his rather direct apologetic style. In fact, I tended to avoid reading him because I was always put off by anything that people drooled over that much (including popular music). It was, in the Assemblies of God and Baptist circles I tended to be in, as if invoking CS Lewis could end an argument.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
"Saint" C. S. Lewis (in the evangelical wing of the TEC) all sounds a bit gimmicky to me. It is unnecessary and just doesn't ring true.
There's no danger of him being forgotten - despite the murmuring of intellectuals, his books will always be read and loved by many, I am sure.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
His confessor was a Cowley Father and he attended worship at St Mary Magdalen's, and if he went to evensong there, he would have attended Benediction.
That he had a confessor is significant. That he went to an Anglo Catholic church isn't; one of the things he was against was parish shopping on the basis of churchmanship (or I think anything short of outright heresy).
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
His confessor was a Cowley Father and he attended worship at St Mary Magdalen's, and if he went to evensong there, he would have attended Benediction.
That he had a confessor is significant. That he went to an Anglo Catholic church isn't; one of the things he was against was parish shopping on the basis of churchmanship (or I think anything short of outright heresy).
He would have attended services in Magdalen College Chapel in term time, which is one of the more catholic-feeling chapels now- I have no idea what it was like fifty years ago! But IIRC he was most associated with Holy Trinity, Headington Quarry. He's buried there, and his brother Warnie was a churchwarden. I've looked around the church- you can see his favourite pew hiding behind one of the pillars!
The church seemed pretty MOTR to me at the time, and looking at the
website it looks fairly middle of the candle- said HC at 8, sung at 10, Choral Evensong once a month, a midweek communion... as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be!
Of course, it may have all been different in Lewis's time; but churches in Oxford tend to keep their churchmanship fairly unchanging. Just like everything else...
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
The difficulties of pigeon-holing Lewis ecclesiastically reinforce his claim to be a “mere Christian”.
To an evangelical, he comes across as quite sympathetic to Roman Catholicism ( though he claimed to find liturgy boring) but Tolkien accused him of anti-Catholic bigotry ( “the Ulsterior motive”) which could tell us more about Tolkien than it does about Lewis.
The evangelical enthusiasm for Lewis is quite an interesting phenomenon, and is certainly not general.
Outsiders often treat evangelicalism as homogeneous, but it contains countless variations, and while middle-of-the-road-evangelical Wheaton College might put Lewis’s pipe on display in a glass case (other hagiographical details can be found in A.N. Wilson’s biography), and a Wheaton lecturer, Alan Jacobs, has written the best biography of Lewis (not just my opinion, but that of the late Roman Catholic priest and controversialist Richard John Neuhaus), the now defunct conservative Moody Monthly (yes, I know) criticized Lewis in the past.
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
In the Open Brethren in which I grew up all Christians were stated to be saints, probably from passages found in the letters "to the saints" and some others which are all inclusive.
Nevertheless, from a phenomenological perspective, some people were regarded as saints. FF Bruce, Spurgeon, Beasley-Murray were all revered. Some brethren I know act as though Darby and Andrew Norris Groves are saints (while being careful not to use the term).
Of course, the missionaries Nate Saint and Jim Elliot that were killed in Ecuador are regarded as martyrs and, when I was a teenager, seeing the film "Through Gates of Splendour" was a sort of pilgrimage.
And CS Lewis was revered for being an intelligent, articulate Chistian apologist.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Disliking an organ isn't necessarily a sign of churchmanship; he might have not liked the sound quite literally. It might've been too loud for his taste, or he just didn't find it appealing as an instrument.
I don't recall saying that disliking the organ was a sign of churchmanship. But it may well have influenced the style of service he chose to attend. As I understand it, C.S.Lewis really disliked the sound of the organ.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Lewis appealed (and appeals) to a particular group of Christians across the "party lines" - educated, informed, safe. His apologetics books are not the easiest to understand for those whose formal education is limited.
What some have described above as traditional MOTR anglicanism reflects his views and practice pretty well. I think he had more time for RCC's than he did methodists, baptist or Congregationalists. Yep he is quoted in evangelical circles but perhaps conveniently overlooking some of his more (ahem) unorthodox views for inhabitants of that particular country (e.g views on Purgatory). It's the conversion you see for them -- but perhaps even that is not quite as so often explained.
He'd be pretty uneasy (IMHO) with anything lower than MOTR churches as expressed in contemporary worship.
I'm not a fan although of the evo persuasion - for me it's not content as such but the style which puts me off. Never been keen for example on allegory as an apologetic tool: say it as it is mate. In the Bible it's ok for me but elsewhere it doesn't somehow hit the mark. I'm too lazy I expect ......
His voice, together with J B Priestly's was the kind of reasoned comforting words on the wireless during world war 2 that guided people to think about the wonderful new world they would have when it was all over. One man's reasoning is anothers propoganda.
[ 05. September 2012, 05:16: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Disliking an organ isn't necessarily a sign of churchmanship; he might have not liked the sound quite literally. It might've been too loud for his taste, or he just didn't find it appealing as an instrument.
I don't recall saying that disliking the organ was a sign of churchmanship. But it may well have influenced the style of service he chose to attend. As I understand it, C.S.Lewis really disliked the sound of the organ.
Though oddly enough, he seems to have enjoyed bagpipes (while admitting he couldn't tell one tune from another).
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I think it was part of Lewis' genius that when he went after "Mere Christianity" he really did manage to distil essentials that many different denominations could regard as essentials. And he carefully argued forcefully for them, thus endearing himself to many different Christians.
Consequently he was well regarded during my evangelical youth (although most would have recoiled if they heard him discuss purgatory), and seems well regarded among MOTR Anglicans. Catholics seem to also find much of appeal in his writings, and I understand some Swedenborgians have also been tempted to claim him for their own.
I can't help thinking that he would resist any attempts to pin down his churchmanship as anything more than an arbitrary detail, and I wonder what he would have made of any attempt to commemorate him in a regularized way.
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Exclamation Mark, the Narnia books are not allegory, nor is the 'Sci-Fi trilogy', nor is 'Till We Have Faces'. The only allegory Lewis wrote is 'The Pilgrim's Regress', which is almost incomprehensible nowadays, not to say unreadable; hardly a representative work,
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Exclamation Mark, the Narnia books are not allegory, nor is the 'Sci-Fi trilogy', nor is 'Till We Have Faces'. The only allegory Lewis wrote is 'The Pilgrim's Regress', which is almost incomprehensible nowadays, not to say unreadable; hardly a representative work,
The Great Divorce? Though I suppose that's more metaphor than allegory.
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Forward the New Republic
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Disliking an organ isn't necessarily a sign of churchmanship; he might have not liked the sound quite literally. It might've been too loud for his taste, or he just didn't find it appealing as an instrument.
I don't recall saying that disliking the organ was a sign of churchmanship. But it may well have influenced the style of service he chose to attend. As I understand it, C.S.Lewis really disliked the sound of the organ.
Though oddly enough, he seems to have enjoyed bagpipes (while admitting he couldn't tell one tune from another).
Maybe he'd have liked the organ more if it was normally played outdoors from a good distance away, too.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Exclamation Mark, the Narnia books are not allegory, nor is the 'Sci-Fi trilogy', nor is 'Till We Have Faces'. The only allegory Lewis wrote is 'The Pilgrim's Regress', which is almost incomprehensible nowadays, not to say unreadable; hardly a representative work,
Oh, I quite liked 'The Pilgrim's Regress'!
I came to Lewis's writings whilst converting to Christianity when a student in the 1980s, so they will always have a special place for me amongst Christian books.
I had not read any of the 'Narnia' books as a child. So I started with 'Mere Christainity' (Thanks, Richard K., for lending me that!). Then I got really into his apologetics and bought and read most of them in a short space of time. I remember liking 'TPR' quite a lot, and 'The Great Divorce'.
I eventually read the 'Out of the Silent Planet' trilogy as well. I still think 'That Hideous Strength' is the best book he wrote. Only then did I read the 'Narnia' series. Weird, eh?
[ 05. September 2012, 10:03: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Lewis himself said that the Narnia books were not allegory, but I've always felt that this is somewhat disingenuous. With there being so many close parallels between the books and events in the Bible (right down to the High King being called Peter) allegory is the term that springs to my mind at any rate.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
PS Alaric, I can't remember if you've read any Charles Williams. If That Hideous Strength is your favourite Lewis you may well enjoy Williams. It is widely thought that Ransome in that book is modelled on Williams; in the first two he is thought to have been modelled on Tolkien.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Lewis himself said that the Narnia books were not allegory, but I've always felt that this is somewhat disingenuous. With there being so many close parallels between the books and events in the Bible (right down to the High King being called Peter) allegory is the term that springs to my mind at any rate.
He called them "supposals", i.e. supposing how Christ might reveal himself in different types of world.
I'd never thought of High King Peter being a direct connection to the fisherman formerly known as Simon. (That really would be Catholic ...) Anyway, Peter never disowns Aslan!
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I'd never thought of High King Peter being a direct connection to the fisherman formerly known as Simon. (That really would be Catholic ...) Anyway, Peter never disowns Aslan!
No, I'm not seeing that either. (And Peter is not my favourite Pevensie. He's rather priggish.)
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
He was not a partisan anglo-catholic and would have rejected the term, but he fitted in with it.
That makes sense. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I know loads of evangelicals who 'revere' Lewis. I am one of them! (Proud to be a fangirl of both him and Tolkien!) I don't always agree with Lewis, and -- unlike Tolkien -- his imaginative fiction can be rather dogmatic and preachy (apart from 'Till We Have Faces', which is brilliant), but he has had a huge impact on my imagination ... particularly the way I view the reality of Heaven. That's all thanks to Lewis. I also found 'The Great Divorce' a helpful book: it has passages of great beauty and startling spiritual insight.
It's not surprising to me that evangelicals like Lewis: 1) evangelicals love Narnia, and 2) Lewis was a great defender of orthodox faith. Also, most open evangelicals are aware of Lewis's Anglo-Catholicism and are not bothered by it. He is viewed with far more suspicion by Calvinist types, it seems. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
One of the best glimpses of Lewis is in Sheldon Vanauken's autobiographical novel 'A Severe Mercy', in which he documents how he and his wife met Lewis in Oxford during the 1940s. It's a wonderful glimpse of the man: jovial and booming, loving a good pie and a good cigar, and very kind and compassionate. One of my favourite quotes is when he tells Vanauken that "I suspect the Holy Spirit is after you ... I doubt you will get away!"
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I read a lot of C S Lewis's stuff in the 80's - including the collections of his essays and shorter items and I found them rather helpful at the time (although I suspect that I would ask rather more questions of them now).
But I have to say that I now find that he is beginning to look pretty "dated" - even his "classic" books (Screwtape Letters, Prayer: Letters to Malcolm and the Four Loves). I don't want to minimise his impact on Christian thought in the 50's and 60's especially, but I'm beginning to get rather puzzled as to why he continues to be held in such esteem, especially by evangelicals. My suspicion is that this is in part because he comes from a period when (in the UK at least) Christianity was much more taken seriously by the wider population and Biblical criticism was far more easily dismissed.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I don't want to minimise his impact on Christian thought in the 50's and 60's especially, but I'm beginning to get rather puzzled as to why he continues to be held in such esteem, especially by evangelicals. My suspicion is that this is in part because he comes from a period when (in the UK at least) Christianity was much more taken seriously by the wider population and Biblical criticism was far more easily dismissed.
Yes, I'd agree, and there's also a simple sentimental factor. Perhaps as the UK (and other countries) become less familiar with Christianity, the Narnia books become more and more treasured as a way for children (and adults) to discover something about the magic and wonder of God.
I didn't grow up in a Christian household but I read the Narnia books and became enamoured of the Deeper Magic from Before the Dawn of Time. I agree, some of his works look very dated now, but I suspect a lot of people still hang want to hang on to the man who gave us Reepicheep and Lucy and Pegasus... He's part of the family.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Wasn't part of Lewis's point in choosing the title 'Mere Christianity' that he deliberately did not want to align himself with any faction? He was very scathing about those divisions. It's clear he didn't reckon much to apostate or semi-apostate clergy, of whatever churchmanship but unlike most other tendencies, I don't think the MCU, as was, has ever tried claim him as one of them. Any other tendency that is trying to claim him now as one of themselves, is whistling in the wind.
Going back to the OP, though, I think CCP may be going slightly further than the CofE as a whole, in simply referring to the whole list as 'Saints Days'. To misquote Prof Joad, it depends what you mean by saint. The CofE does not have a mechanism for canonisation. The lectionary does not say that all the names recommended for commemoration, as examples or respect, are 'saints' in the canonised sense. If it did, that might be interpreted as saying officially that X, Y and Z are just waiting up there in heaven to receive your requests for intercession.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I think that there is a considerable difference between Lewis as Narnia creator and Lewis is a Christian apologist and writer.
Narnia remains one of the greatest achievements of 20th century novel writing, not least for the fact that what is ostensibly a series of children's books has such a powerful depth. Just compare the Narnia books with anything from Enid Blyton (pretty much a contemporary) and you'll see how ground-breaking and innovative Lewis was. Yes - the books are dating now, but still hold up remarkably well.
But you can't take his reputation and achievements in the Narnia series and then use it to claim that his Christian books have a similar genius. In their time, they were sometimes good and at times very good. But they don't have the same lasting significance as Narnia.
I do think that part of this is evangelical nostalgia for the "good old days" when life was simple and you didn't have to fret overly about homosexuality or multi-faith cultures. Lewis represents a society that has now pretty much died and will not be brought back again.
But I have no problem with him being included in any semi-official Anglican canon of significant 20th century Christians who can be remembered and honoured through the year - much like people such as Jerzy Popiełuszko, Oscar Romero, Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Janani Luwum. He influenced a lot of people and that should not be forgotten or belittled.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
Been thinking aver the last day or so about why I love Lewis so. Despite inevitably disagreeing with him over certain doctrines, I have found some of his fictional work to powerfully speak to me at various points in my life. I think he was a man of great humanity, and therefore had the knack of piercing through to how we all are deep down.
Incidentally, I am sure he says in the intro to The Great DIvorce that it has nothing to do with Purgatory (more to do with spiritual journeys, and the reasons people have for rejecting God) but I don't have a copy to hand, so cannot check.
Either way, as free evangelical, i couldn't care less whether he was canonised or not.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No, not really. See what Enoch says, three or four posts up.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I'd never thought of High King Peter being a direct connection to the fisherman formerly known as Simon. (That really would be Catholic ...) Anyway, Peter never disowns Aslan!
No, I'm not seeing that either.
High King above all other Kings in Narnia? And called Peter? I find it hard to see that as co-incidence (and I'm no advocate of the authority of the Pope).
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I was far, far more taken with Tolkien as a child than I was with Narnia, and re-reading The Lion etc ten years ago, I thought it strangely derivative.
My younger sister was recommnded Mere Christianity for her confirmation. It was the first work of theology that gripped me. It now looks crude and bullying at times. (I was confirmed into State Shinto, so there was no theological content at all.)
I find The Screwtape Letters fascinating, but the work for which he stands out, not least because it rejects his shallow triumphalism is A Grief Observed.
[ 05. September 2012, 16:26: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was listening to the Books-on-Tape edition of Screwtape last week (read dramatically by John Cleese--most excellent acting job! Check it out!) and was appalled by how sexist he was.
But what I think keeps us fans -- well, okay what keeps me -- coming back is how good a writer he was. The man could turn a phrase better than Mata Hari could turn an ankle.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
To modern ears, everyone was sexist in 1942. Nobody had really thought of it. So their ears had not been sensitised to it. It would be many years before they would be.
As a comment it's interesting, but if it's a criticism, it's comparable to criticising Dickens for not mentioning the electric light.
It's perhaps an equally interesting thought as to what in 70 years time will sound dreadful to people living then, to which we are oblivious.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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