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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pastor rearrested ON CHRISTMAS DAY
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
You've got to admire the Iranians for this stunt: by doing it on Christmas day when the journalists of the world are off duty, they are perhaps hoping to get away with it.
Huffington Post story
[Pastor rearrested ON CHRISTMAS DAY]
[ 13. February 2013, 00:17: Message buggered about with by: comet ]
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Not for the first time, the Iranians have got it wrong. While journo's are on holiday everyone else is, so it's slow news time. Maybe the hope was that those who ought to be listening missed it.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) Pastor Youcef and family, that they are together again soon.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
No, you're not confused. You're just bloody pedantic.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
You don't understand. God has told the Iranians to do this to prevent further apostasy.
Of course, when God tells you to do something bad to another person, you can be pretty sure it is not God who is speaking.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
You've got to admire the Iranians for this stunt: by doing it on Christmas day when the journalists of the world are off duty, they are perhaps hoping to get away with it.
Huffington Post story
It's actually not that bad. Christmas lasts for twelve days after all.
Especially if you're an Episcopalian
So perhaps "The Iranians™" were just giving us extra reason to rejoice in giving our martyrs a hard time during one of the most blessed times of the year.
Surely the chap will go to heaven. Shouldn't we be cheering him on?
[ 30. December 2012, 12:49: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
No, you're not confused. You're just bloody pedantic.
You do get my point, don't you?
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
No, you're not confused. You're just bloody pedantic.
You do get my point, don't you?
Yes, It goes with that supersize bag of hyper-sensitivity you got in your Xmas stocking.
Welcome to Hell.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel
You do get my point, don't you?
The point that I 'get' is that there is a person on this thread who interprets language in an ultra-literal way, which is completely out of synch with the way language is actually used in the real world. It's obvious that Ender's Shadow is referring to a general attitude or policy within Iran rather than the position of every single individual Iranian.
It's a bit like saying the following: "During the Blitz Londoners displayed great fortitude" and some pedant pops up and says: "I'm confused, because I know of one particular Londoner who did not display that kind of attitude, therefore what you're saying is nonsense, because he is a 'Londoner' just like all the others..."
Most people tend to look at context and the bigger picture. Perhaps you're not one of them?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
Personally, I have no trouble with calling my government "the Americans" when they take some action good or bad. I do have trouble when some private US citizens take an action or state an opinion and the rest of us are saddled with it as if we are all joined at the hip. Like when someone starts an OP with "What's with you Americans?" that refers to something some Americans hold dear or disapprove of. Inevitably, it all goes downhill from there.
If some Iranian citizens had mobbed this poor man's house, I think referring to them as the Iranians would be inappropriate. Calling actions of the government as action by the Iranians isn't, IMO.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Good point Lyda*Rose. We have Iranians studying here in our community. I would not want to lump them in what the Iranian government is doing (I think a majority of Iranians are actually opposed to the government now).
That said, I think it is time for the good pastor to seek asylum elsewhere. Britain comes to mind.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
If pointing out that not all Iranians are bad evil Islamic maniacs gets me that kind of comment, then I guess I'll have to put up with it.
If you had simply said;
"This is a reprehensible act by the Iranian government, but of course not all Iranians are bad evil Islamic maniacs" then I doubt you would have the same reaction. But you went further. You implied that using the shorthand "Iranians" for an act of the Iranian govt was an indication of a Daily-Mail reading, rabidly racist Islamaphobic bastard.
It is quite unfair to make that allegation based on ES's OP. You would need to dig up one of his postings from last week to do that.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
You're right. I didn't actually indicate that I believe ES to be guilty of that thinking, but didn't make it clear enough that I didn't think that. I apologise to ES for not being careful with my words.
Just to deal with the Londoners point, yes, context is everything. That was my point (seemingly not made clearly enough). Iranians are to be found in a different context to Londoners.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It is quite unfair to make that allegation based on ES's OP. You would need to dig up one of his postings from last week to do that.
Nicely done. Remind me to never piss you off mdijon.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
As a person living in a city that gets blamed for the actions of a couple of hundred people in Parliament, I'm all in favour of precision in language.
Residents of 'Washington' and 'Ottawa' probably share my feelings.
EDIT: Come to think of it, residents of 'Tehran' probably do as well.
[ 30. December 2012, 23:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
So, I was talking about gun control with my uncle. He beings up how "Chicago" has a record number of shootings this year, and says he's never coming to visit Chicago.
If you look at the map, the shootings are localized to particular parts of Chicago, and are mostly gang related. That's not saying that all of Chicago has suddenly gone OK Corral.
Given what I've been reading about the youth culture in Iran and social tides, I also really see no point in saying "the Iranians" when it's an action of the Iranian government and Iran isn't a democracy by any reasonable definition.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As a person living in a city that gets blamed for the actions of a couple of hundred people in Parliament, I'm all in favour of precision in language.
Residents of 'Washington' and 'Ottawa' probably share my feelings.
EDIT: Come to think of it, residents of 'Tehran' probably do as well.
And the poor bastards working in the White House.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Getting back to the OP: I am fascinated by the concept of "apostacy," which seems to be a capital crime in Iran, as it is in several other Muslim countries. Obviously, the Iranian authorities can play with the convicted person as it wishes, releasing and then returning someone to prison, possibly to make points with the Iranian people, or to send some sort of message to the West.
A related question: does anyone have any information about the Present Truth Ministries, linked in the Huffington Post article. This group is supporting Pastor Nadarkhani and has a photo of him on the first page of its website. It describes itself as being quote:
... dedicated to bringing the gospel to Muslims and supporting the persecuted church in the Middle East.
There is also a reference to quote:
... fulfilling the end time mandate to preach the gospel to all nations ...
I don't know the extent of Present Truth's involvement in Iran. Calling attention to the persecution of Christians seems an unequivocally proper thing to do, as it would be for any sort of religious persecution. But I can also see that actually engaging in proselytizing in Iran, especially at this time, could be considered a provocative act and one which can be expected to bring about serious and possibly unanticipated negative consequences for all sorts of people.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
roybart wrote:
quote:
But I can also see that actually engaging in proselytizing in Iran, especially at this time, could be considered a provocative act and one which can be expected to bring about serious and possibly unanticipated negative consequences for all sorts of people.
Especially if they're framing their mission in terms of apocalyptic doomsday themes.
Their website seems heavily focussed on Nadarkhani's case. Interestingly, this page states that he has been "charged" with not being a Trinitarian, and he seems to subscribe to some form of modalism.
It's not clear if this "charge" is an informal one, just something people are saying, or if it forms part of the authorities' legal case against him. I would speculate that the Iranian government might be more lenient toward Christians regarded as holding supposedly established beliefs, rather than those whose beliefs could more easily be surmised as oddball or cultic.
[ 31. December 2012, 03:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
But I can also see that actually engaging in proselytizing in Iran, especially at this time, could be considered a provocative act and one which can be expected to bring about serious and possibly unanticipated negative consequences for all sorts of people.
Indeed - such was the concern of the Jewish authorities in the face of the preaching of Peter and John. Fortunately for the history of Christianity, they regarded the commands of God as having a slightly higher priority when deciding what to do. But it's always easier to pick the conformist route ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Can some kindly host remove the puking emoticon from Ender's Shadow's reach? He overuses it.
Meanwhile, yes, it is reprehensible that the Iranian authorities are apparently mistreating this pastor. Irrespective of how good, bad or indifferent his theology is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:
I But it's always easier to pick the conformist route [Projectile]
... though perhaps not quite as easy as clicking the vomit emoticom button from a safe and comfortable location in the U.K.
It is possible to support Christian and other religious minorities in Muslim countries while remaining wary of Western Christian evangelical organizations which are working to convert people in one of the most dangerous Islamic regimes in the world, as Present Truth Ministries are claiming to do. I thought I made that distinction clear in my original post. I was not, apparently, clear enough for all.
Given the role of Christian evangelicals in support of the Iraq invastion, and the strong position of evangelicals in the U.S. military command and chaplain service, I think there is some reason to wonder about what effect zeal to promote Christianity in the Muslim world might have on the people of those countries and, by extension, on regional and world stability.
I repeat my questions: does anyone know more about Present Truth Ministries? Assuming that they are doing something and not just talking, what do you think about Christian proselytizing in states like Iran? Fulfilling a Gospel commandment? Or a dangerous idea at this time?
(By "dangerous," I am thinking about the local people, including existing Christian communities and other minorites. I am also thinking about the potential effects on those residing, like most of us, far from the action but not immune to possible long-term consequences.)
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
I repeat my questions: does anyone know more about Present Truth Ministries? Assuming that they are doing something and not just talking, what do you think about Christian proselytizing in states like Iran? Fulfilling a Gospel commandment? Or a dangerous idea at this time?
Fulfilling a gospel commandment?
No.
Enders just likes that idea because it makes him feel self righteous.
More likely Presenet Truth Ministries are pawns of a right wing agenda to demonise Iran so the might of the USA can move in, control the oil, make Israel safer so Christ will return (bout fuckin time wouldn't you say?) and not piss too many normal citizens off in the process because they're demons that persecute Christians?
Yes.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
More likely Presenet Truth Ministries are pawns of a right wing agenda to demonise Iran so the might of the USA can move in
In which case the revolutionary guard and Iranian govt seem to have fallen into the trap feet first. I very much doubt the good pastor is a puppet of any sinister Western power. I think it much more likely that he faces prison and worse because of genuine personal faith. What else could there possibly be in it for him?
It is reprehensible that he is not allowed freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
Posted by mdijon:
quote:
It is reprehensible that he is not allowed freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
Yes. But one can believe this deeply and still feel that the situation is being exploited by others. You can have divided feelings about situations, after all.
The role of possible outside influences, or outside forces that may be trying to exploit an injustice for their own ends, is something that deserves looking at for its own sake. Wanting to do this doesn't put you in the camp of the Iranian authorities. (If it did, rational discourse about such matters would be impossible.)
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Posted by mdijon:
quote:
It is reprehensible that he is not allowed freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
Yes. But one can believe this deeply and still feel that the situation is being exploited by others. You can have divided feelings about situations, after all.
The role of possible outside influences, or outside forces that may be trying to exploit an injustice for their own ends, is something that deserves looking at for its own sake. Wanting to do this doesn't put you in the camp of the Iranian authorities. (If it did, rational discourse about such matters would be impossible.)
There's nothing to stop you searching online for "Present Truth Ministries" and finding out about them for yourself.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
Your google must be broken, leo - first 4 hits it gives me are directly to Present Truth's Ministry's website.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
But the place to go is here.
There aims: quote:
1. To encourage Christians in countries where their involvement in fulfilling the end’time mandate to preach the gospel in all nations causes persecution. “This gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end shall come” (Matthew 24:14).
2. To provide co-ordinated prayer support to imprisoned Christians.
3. To bring the Gospel to Muslims and Bible teaching to Muslim background Christians.
4. To inform the world of the evils committed against Christians and encourage believers around the world to get involved in helping them.
They believe that we are living in 'the end times' and they are not Trinitarian because they cannot find scriptural warrant for such a belief.
I cannot find any evidence as to who funds them.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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roybart
Shipmate
# 17357
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Posted
I had actually checked this out on Google. Most of the links are to their own site. There is an interesting thread on a discussion board for "former adventists."
I was puzzled as to why there was a link to this Ministry in the Huffington Post article. Possibly this is a fringe ministry trying, through its website, to suggest that it is more active than it really is.
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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton
Posts: 547 | From: here | Registered: Sep 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
I haven't listened to any of the News, Audio, or Video entries on their main site, but all of them except two are posted by someone named Jason Demars. There is nothing earlier than May of 2012, with the bulk being from October onward. No action in the comment sections.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The details of every organisation that puts Pastor Nadarkhani's story on their website seems rather peripheral to the big picture.
Some may have mixed motives but that doesn't seem to change the fact that a man has been denied freedom of religion and speech in his country of origin.
In seems to me more important to understand Nadarkhani's own organisation and his own actions. If those gave reason to doubt his sincerity then that would be an issue. Therefore I'm not sure what cause there is for mixed feelings on the issue.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Therefore I'm not sure what cause there is for mixed feelings on the issue.
Well, in an instance like this, we are being asked to support not human-rights generally, but to give special attention to the case of one particular individual.
It's one thing if someone says we should donate to Amnesty International, which works for prisoners-of-conscience around the world, including(I would assume)Pastor Nadarkhani. It's another thing if someone says that Pastor Nadarkhani is especially deserving of a campaign on behalf of him alone. Maybe he is, but when that kind of claim is made, I think it's valid to ask questions about who exactly is making the claim.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
And persuant to what I wrote above, it seems that AI has, in fact, taken up Naekhani's cause. Though that article is from 2011, presumably from one of his previous arrests.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That sounds uncomfortably like the prototype argument that says we can't worry about x because x is simply a subset of problems a through z, and hence focusing on x is unbalanced, derives from some ulterior motive, and smacks of hypocrisy. On that basis we wouldn't give to a local charity tackling providing homelessness, would never write to a head of state expressing outrage over the treatment of an individual, and would never take part in a protest march over a single issue.
Things get done because people give attention to specific single issues. I have no problem if someone chooses a different specific issue to get exercised over, but I have a problem if someone tells me I ought not to get exercised over a particular issue of injustice because of all the other injustice in the world.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Obviously, the Iranian authorities can play with the convicted person as it wishes, releasing and then returning someone to prison, possibly to make points with the Iranian people, or to send some sort of message to the West.
The reason given is that he was released early. This might be a convenient excuse. But the exact same thing could happen in 'the West' as well. If there was a miscalculation of the amount of a sentence served, it's perfectly possible for a person to be sent back to prison here.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The reason given is that he was released early. This might be a convenient excuse. But the exact same thing could happen in 'the West' as well. If there was a miscalculation of the amount of a sentence served, it's perfectly possible for a person to be sent back to prison here.
IIRC, it used be the law here that a person's sentence ran whether they were in custody or in the community; the exception to that was of course if a convicted person had escaped from lawful custody. So if a person was released early by mistake, and taken back into custody a month later, that month counted as part of the sentence served. No doubt, parliament has changed this.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
More likely Presenet Truth Ministries are pawns of a right wing agenda to demonise Iran so the might of the USA can move in
In which case the revolutionary guard and Iranian govt seem to have fallen into the trap feet first. I very much doubt the good pastor is a puppet of any sinister Western power. I think it much more likely that he faces prison and worse because of genuine personal faith. What else could there possibly be in it for him?
It is reprehensible that he is not allowed freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
The good pastor is not a puppet. He's just being used as one to generate religious strife by Christian extremists.
The New Atheists are certainly correct when they speak of religion generating violence in this area.
The motivations of these terrible organisations like Present Truth Ministries is wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day in a wrong world.
[ 01. January 2013, 04:53: Message edited by: Evensong ]
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Getting back to the OP: I am fascinated by the concept of "apostacy," which seems to be a capital crime in Iran, as it is in several other Muslim countries. Obviously, the Iranian authorities can play with the convicted person as it wishes, releasing and then returning someone to prison, possibly to make points with the Iranian people, or to send some sort of message to the West.
A related question: does anyone have any information about the Present Truth Ministries, linked in the Huffington Post article. This group is supporting Pastor Nadarkhani and has a photo of him on the first page of its website. It describes itself as being quote:
... dedicated to bringing the gospel to Muslims and supporting the persecuted church in the Middle East.
There is also a reference to quote:
... fulfilling the end time mandate to preach the gospel to all nations ...
I don't know the extent of Present Truth's involvement in Iran. Calling attention to the persecution of Christians seems an unequivocally proper thing to do, as it would be for any sort of religious persecution. But I can also see that actually engaging in proselytizing in Iran, especially at this time, could be considered a provocative act and one which can be expected to bring about serious and possibly unanticipated negative consequences for all sorts of people.
Given that the White House and State Department were among those calling for his release last time round, the fact the Present Truth Ministries is now notifying the world that the Iranian government has done it again doesn't seem terribly significant. Unless of course you want to argue that the American government, the product of a subversive revolutionary movement, is a questionable organisation.
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Actually there is something to be said for that argument ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The good pastor is not a puppet. He's just being used as one to generate religious strife by Christian extremists.
I think you ought to notice that it wasn't Christian extremists that put him in prison for his faith.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel
"The Iranians"? What with him being Iranian, I am confused.
Unless you are saying that Christianity is a nationality. Or simply putting all Iranians together in one evil Muslim-wanting-to-dominate-the-world bag, including, well, the Pastor in question.
No, you're not confused. You're just bloody pedantic.
You do get my point, don't you?
Yes, It goes with that supersize bag of hyper-sensitivity you got in your Xmas stocking.
Welcome to Hell.
I agree with Rosa. At the very least the OP is badly phrased.
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The good pastor is not a puppet. He's just being used as one to generate religious strife by Christian extremists.
I think you ought to notice that it wasn't Christian extremists that put him in prison for his faith.
Wasn't his faith they put him into prison for.
The Iranian constitution recognizes Christianity as a protected religious minority and a member of parliament represents them.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
My understanding is that apostasy is treated differently from being born a Christian. Thus apostasy is a crime in Iran, but being born a Christian isn't.
Have you looked into it and come to a different conclusion?
[ 01. January 2013, 12:45: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Christianity is a permitted religion in Iran. However, it is a serious offence for Christians to proselytise, and an even more serious offence for a Moslem to apostasise. In other words, if you keep your head down, say nothing, don't even ring a church bell to announce that a service is about to commence, you'll be left alone. I assume that similar principles apply to other religions, but I'm not sure about Judaism or Ba'hai. I have a recollection that life for them is even more difficult.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Judaism is permitted, Bahai isn't, IIRC
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That is one question, the other is whether you were previously a muslim and apostatized or not. I believe one line of defence used in Youcef Nadarkhani's case was that he had never been a practising muslim, hence had not really apostatized.
It was reported that Iranian law recognises a child's religion according to their birth, and hence this line didn't work.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
My understanding is that the question is whether one is one of the people of the book or not. AKA Christian or Jewish (if not Muslim.)
Thank you - that has stirred some of the memory cells that are on holiday.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
That is one question, the other is whether you were previously a muslim and apostatized or not. I believe one line of defence used in Youcef Nadarkhani's case was that he had never been a practising muslim, hence had not really apostatized.
It was reported that Iranian law recognises a child's religion according to their birth, and hence this line didn't work.
That's what I heard too
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