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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Is poverty a crime?

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is poverty a crime?
Belle Ringer
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My yard man will be in jail for two weeks, due to borrowing (with permission) a friend's truck that, unknown to him, had a busted tail light and out of date registration and inspection. Not his truck but he was driving it so he gets dinged.

Wouldn't happen to "rich" people - when I get stopped for a non-working tail light I get a warning, partly because I can afford to keep registration and inspection up to date, which poor people often can't afford. Multiple offenses means no courtesy warning.

A different acquaintance is homeless because the cops shut down the apartment she was renting, for not meeting code. If she could afford a legal apartment she would have rented one!

I keep seeing ways the law seems to say poor people should be punished for their poverty.

Should traffic fines be a percentage of income instead of same fee for rich and poor?

Should substandard housing be legal so minimum wage or below people can afford to rent shelter instead of illegally sleeping in their car or on the street and fearing arrest just for being unable to afford standard housing?

What are some solutions to the extra harshness of laws when applied to the poor?

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Latchkey Kid
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# 12444

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I was speaking to a patient today in his 90s. He was instrumental in setting up the nursing home for the poor next to the hospital and was later on the board. Now the church has replaced and restructured its care so that you need $350,000 for a place. So it became a place for the rich and, ironically, those who started it for the poor are too poor to use it.

I don't have the answers.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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deano
princess
# 12063

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But what about those mothers of children who died in road accidents caused by badly maintained and dangerous vehicles? What would they think?

What about those relatives of people who died from houses which were so shoddy they burned down or collapsed when they shouldn’t? What would they think?

The requirements for those kinds of checks and regulations were to save lives, not make people better off.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
My yard man will be in jail for two weeks, due to borrowing (with permission) a friend's truck that, unknown to him, had a busted tail light and out of date registration and inspection. Not his truck but he was driving it so he gets dinged.

Wouldn't happen to "rich" people - when I get stopped for a non-working tail light I get a warning, partly because I can afford to keep registration and inspection up to date, which poor people often can't afford. Multiple offenses means no courtesy warning.

In Australia this works the same way - regardless of who owns a vehicle, the offence is to drive with a vehicle that isn't roadworthy or registered. It is made very clear that this is the responsibility of the driver, I even had a question on that as part of the random selection when I did my road rules test to apply for a learner's permit. "He said I could" is no excuse for not checking the rego sticker and lights before driving, and it makes you wonder what other road laws he couldn't be bothered observing?

The reason for this is simple - there's no problem with owning a car that is not registered or is not roadworthy if it's not being driven, for example the classic Porsche my uncle's restoring is not registered or roadworthy but it's causing no danger to other members of the public because it's sitting in a garage.

I fully support this conviction since road safety is a serious issue, but I'm not sure that the sentence is appropriate. For the offence of driving an unroadworthy vehicle it would be more appropriate to issue a defect ticket with an on-the-spot requiring it to be presented to a police station in a roadworthy condition or to be impounded within one week, with a small fine for deterrence included. Driving unregistered is more serious, that deserves a criminal conviction to be recorded, the driver's license disqualified for a period and the driver given a significant fine (or community service in lieu of payment).


quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Should traffic fines be a percentage of income instead of same fee for rich and poor?

Should substandard housing be legal so minimum wage or below people can afford to rent shelter instead of illegally sleeping in their car or on the street and fearing arrest just for being unable to afford standard housing?

Sliding scales for fines are a possibility, but there should be a 'collar' as well as a 'cap' so that the important deterrent value is not affected. Even if people don't care about road safety, a hit in the hip pocket might be a suitable motivation to observe the rules in the future.

If landlords are not keeping properties in a fit state to be lived in, then you need an appropriate authority to mandate a maximum rental rate that can be charged, and/or require that improvements be made and verified by inspection before a higher rate can be charged.

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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Law is a one size fits all and will inevitably bear more hardly on some than others.

But it is also the case -

Through tattered clothes great vices do appear;
Robes and furred gowns hide all. Plate sin with gold,
And the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks.
Arm it in rags, a pigmy’s straw does pierce it.


Rob one, you're a mugger. Rob thousands and you're a banker.

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Enoch
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I think there's a cross-cultural problem here. I don't think most countries imprison for ordinary motoring offences.

Here the ones that are taken much more seriously and can see you end up behind bars are killing someone on the road, and being drunk or found without insurance more than once.

Sliding scale fines were tried here a few years ago but didn't work because the fines for rich people who committed relatively trivial infringements rapidly started to look seriously disproportionate. Of course that's also an indication that even an ordinary sounding fine might be seriously disproportionate for a really poor people, but no one seemed to argue that.

Sorting out poor housing doesn't come under the police here. It's done differently. So the picture of the police swooping on a property, inspecting it and then throwing the occupants out into the street sounds a bit bizarre.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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deano
princess
# 12063

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Was it a squat?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Let me Google that for you

I've heard and read a few times that the values or rights we have are those of the ruling or middle classes. I found that to be strange when I read that, but when I think of how squatters often get treated and compare that with the likes of Philip Green or Irvine Patnick, then I think that there is some truth there.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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deano
princess
# 12063

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I don't follow. I wasn't being chippy, I was asking a serious question. If the police raided a house and threw everyone out onto the streets, I think asking if it was a squat is a fair question. If is wasn't, then let's dig a little deeper to get to the reason why they were thrown out.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Was it a squat?

Basement in a house. Homeowners wanted a little extra income, gal wanted a place to live for less than $500 a month.
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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Too slow for edit window. It wasn't a police raid, it was a neighbor found out and complained.

Lots of limits on use of housing. Single family zoning means no renting out a room to non-family.

In this case the basement, as she described it to me, also was not up to code for rental as a separate apartment. I couldn't ask a lot pf details without prying. Police gave her a week to leave, the complaint was not against her but against the homeowners.

I understand there are safety reason for code, but a cheap basement or garden shed sure beats living in the open field! Much of the world live in below USA code housing, right? Yes there can be safety issues, but living with no shelter is less safe.

I don't know the answers.

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don't follow. I wasn't being chippy, I was asking a serious question. If the police raided a house and threw everyone out onto the streets, I think asking if it was a squat is a fair question. If is wasn't, then let's dig a little deeper to get to the reason why they were thrown out.

Sorry, I hadn't read your post correctly. Too many words [Hot and Hormonal]

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Much of the world live in below USA code housing, right?

People die in slums.

--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Too slow for edit window. It wasn't a police raid, it was a neighbor found out and complained.

Lots of limits on use of housing. Single family zoning means no renting out a room to non-family.

In this case the basement, as she described it to me, also was not up to code for rental as a separate apartment. I couldn't ask a lot pf details without prying. Police gave her a week to leave, the complaint was not against her but against the homeowners.

I understand there are safety reason for code, but a cheap basement or garden shed sure beats living in the open field! Much of the world live in below USA code housing, right? Yes there can be safety issues, but living with no shelter is less safe.

I don't know the answers.

Abandoning safety standards for accommodation may or may not result in lots more accommodation being available.

But it will definitely result in more unscrupulous landlords letting deathtraps.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Driving unregistered is more serious, that deserves a criminal conviction to be recorded, the driver's license disqualified for a period and the driver given a significant fine (or community service in lieu of payment).

In the US, "registration" is a purely administrative annual tax - it doesn't involve any kind of real safety check. The vehicle would still be displaying its license plates, which would identify it - they would just have an expired sticker on them. There's no reason for it to be the serious offense that you describe.

Now, driving without a license or insurance is more serious, and does deserve more than a slap on the wrist.

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Pomona
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I was thinking more along the lines of Westminster Borough Council wanting to make feeding the homeless illegal [Mad]

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Gwai
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# 11076

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Driving unregistered is more serious, that deserves a criminal conviction to be recorded, the driver's license disqualified for a period and the driver given a significant fine (or community service in lieu of payment).

In the US, "registration" is a purely administrative annual tax - it doesn't involve any kind of real safety check.
That is certainly not true in all jurisdictions. I have owned and known cars that failed the inspections required for stickers. (Where failed means a fault was found that had to be fixed before the sticker would be sold.)

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Driving unregistered is more serious, that deserves a criminal conviction to be recorded, the driver's license disqualified for a period and the driver given a significant fine (or community service in lieu of payment).

In the US, "registration" is a purely administrative annual tax - it doesn't involve any kind of real safety check.
That is certainly not true in all jurisdictions. I have owned and known cars that failed the inspections required for stickers. (Where failed means a fault was found that had to be fixed before the sticker would be sold.)
I drive a VW POS that is going on close to a year of not being able to pass inspection which is necessary to renew the registration. The check engine light stays on and once we fix what the system says causes it, something else makes the light turn on. It's like whack-a-mole.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Porridge
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# 15405

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AFAICT, poverty has always been a crime, at least in Western societies. Societal attitudes toward poverty reach far back in history and are predicated on several basic (and generally false) assumptions about poverty's causes:

1. Poverty results from refusal to work.
2. Poverty results from divine punishment.
3. Poverty results from drunkenness (and more latterly, from other addictions).
4. Poverty results from failure to keep marital vows.

Of course, these behaviors can and do sometimes produce poverty; it's just that the assumptions make no allowance for things like simple misfortune, or for situations over which we have no control, or for things like deliberate victimization of vulnerable people.

You can go back centuries and find that the poor were routinely jailed, put into forced labor, driven out-of-town, and/or generally treated like undesirables. Somehwere deep in our DNA lurks a belief that, if you're poor, there's something wrong with you, and if there's something wrong with you, you must be punished for it.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
The check engine light stays on
Take the bulb out.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313

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I like Porridge's post.

I think the phenomenon has to do with the common failing of going to any length whatsoever to avoid having to feel compassion for others.

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hanginginthere
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# 17541

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The 'poverty is a crime' mindset reached its nadir in the institution of the workhouse, where families were split up, not just women from men but children from their parents. The workhouse may have gone, but vestiges of the attitude linger on, I fear.

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'Safe?' said Mr Beaver. 'Who said anything about safe? But he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'

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comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I drive a VW POS that is going on close to a year of not being able to pass inspection which is necessary to renew the registration. The check engine light stays on and once we fix what the system says causes it, something else makes the light turn on. It's like whack-a-mole.

we're car-twins! only mine is a Mitsubishi and thankfully registration requires no inspection.

I drove illegally for two years due to cost. Well, partly. I also had some misinformation about the cost but that's on me.

I finally got legal recently, and it cost me about $800. none of those were fines for being illegal, I never got caught. that was the combined cost of renewing my license, changing over a title, registration, and insurance. I have no moving offenses on my record and I'm solidly in a "cheap" insurance demographic. that was a best-case cost scenario.

I make about $400 a month right now, to give some context.

YES - driving is a privilege and if I can't afford to do it legally I can suck it. I know that's the deal. but the reality is, I couldn't hold down my job without a car. It would be a 4 mile hike through the woods and snow and critters at 4 or 5 am to get home. I've done it, it sucks. And it means even more time away from my children, who spend plenty enough time without me. Another co-worker lives 12 miles away; he just would have to quit and be isolated if he couldn't drive. He holds down two jobs in order to make expenses.

I would love to see at least a mini-grant program that covers expenses of registration and insurance for those of us TRYING to hold down low paying jobs. meanwhile, there's a LOT of us driving the roads illegally.

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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We don't have to have cars checked here as there is no MOT test centre on the island. You can drive a rust bucket as long as all 4 wheels will stay on. I can also get a provisional licence and ride any motorbike upto 250cc without any training whatsoever. Certainly saves a few pennies for those that are inclined. Every so often someone gets caught out taking their island car to the mainland and forgetting to book it in for testing before going too far.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
That is certainly not true in all jurisdictions. I have owned and known cars that failed the inspections required for stickers. (Where failed means a fault was found that had to be fixed before the sticker would be sold.)

I didn't realize that any state did more than an emissions test (which can certainly be expensive - it can easily be $1000 or more to fix "my check engine light comes on" - but isn't a safety issue, so being late with it should be no more than a slap on the wrist). I stand corrected.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
isn't a safety issue, so being late with it should be no more than a slap on the wrist).

And yes, I know "should" and what governments actually do are about as connected as fish and bicycles, but at least leave me with the illusion of a few ideals, OK?
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Gwai
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# 11076

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Some states definitely do more than an emissions test or at least some cities, but it is also true that perhaps many don't also.

Either way I would Love to see programs to help people get their car up to code for work reasons. Perhaps the sort of thing that we have for light and heating bills.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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Criminalization of poverty is a HUGE problem. To understand it, you have to hear about it from the perspective of the poor. Yes, there may be good reasons for certain laws, but if they have the effect of making life more difficult for the poor, then they need to be worked out better. We should consider not only the intent of a law when it was originally passed, but all of its practical applications and effects.

Many of our laws on issues related to poverty are essentially to keep the poor out of view. It's been pointed out that Westerners who think we don't have the same kind of abject poverty in our own nations and cities think so because we don't see shantytowns, for example. But we don't see shantytowns in our own countries because they're illegal here.

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Much of the world live in below USA code housing, right?

People die in slums.
That's a nice, simple answer. The alternative, however, is people being on the street. People die on the street. I'm not arguing in favor of slums; but throwing someone out of a home because it's not to code without providing for other housing is unconscionable. Are you trying to say that tossing someone onto the street because their house isn't up to code saves the person's life?

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was thinking more along the lines of Westminster Borough Council wanting to make feeding the homeless illegal [Mad]

WHAT?!?!?! I can only imagine that this is trying to sweep poverty out of view, based on the idea that if you feed the homeless, they'll stick around?

San Francisco, that supposedly liberal city, passed a "sit-lie law" a couple years ago, making it illegal to sit or lie on a sidewalk before 11pm. That's another attempt to make homelessness less visible. All those sorts of cosmetic laws accomplish is to decrease awareness of a very serious problem so middle-class folks can go on with their shopping and not feel bad. That we can see homeless people in the streets begging and think, "Let's fix this problem by making it illegal to be in the streets begging" says a lot about our sinful nature. In addition, it's a lot easier to talk (and legislate) about the poor than to talk to or with them and invite their insight and input into the so-called solutions we propose.

A huge part of the criminalization of poverty is that having a criminal record makes it harder to climb out of poverty. If you've been to jail because you couldn't pay your rent (and you live in Arkansas), or because you were sleeping in your car, it's only going to be that much harder to get a job (which is already impossible to do without a permanent address anyway).

I can recommend a book on the subject, written by a woman I know who lived all this: Criminal of Poverty: Growing Up Homeless in America by Lisa Gray Garcia.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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We are getting along just fine but I hate spending money on cars because cars depreciate. On July 30 I changed the oil. I've only put about 2,850 miles on it since then. If we take a trip we go in my wife's car. We would give my car the heave and get another POS for going to work and back if I could just get my check engine light off long enough to pass inspection so I can sell it.

A commonly overlooked advantage of a POS is that you generally don't mind just having liability insurance on it and not also comp and collision.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was thinking more along the lines of Westminster Borough Council wanting to make feeding the homeless illegal

Can you expand on this? I've not heard or read anything about this.

Separately, I thought the advice generally was not to give money to the homeless because it tends to be spent on drinks or drugs? (Though I have done.)

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I had always been given that advice, but I have started to have doubts recently - having had more contact with people with serious alcohol problems. If you are actually alcohol dependent, stopping drinking without medical supervision (often inpatient care) is actually very dangerous. So in the end, what do we achieve, when we know so little about the individual at the moment at which they ask ?

[ 26. February 2013, 23:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alwyn
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# 4380

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was thinking more along the lines of Westminster Borough Council wanting to make feeding the homeless illegal

Can you expand on this? I've not heard or read anything about this. [...]
I wonder if Jade Constable meant items like this one, which suggests that Westminster proposed to ban feeding homeless people and then backed down, after campaigning by groups such as Liberty and Church Action on Poverty?

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

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Martin60
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# 368

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If you give them a hot meal because they are hungry and cold and lonely they will spend whatever money they can get on drink or drugs ...

What's been pointed out to me just this Monday is that there are people in my church who are in poverty giving to feed people who come to our 'outreach' who have their own property. Three I know do. One a really nice flat. His dad has dropped him off in a Merc before now.

I'm having to examine my open arms policy.

I've not stopped the drug dealing that goes on. It's all I could do to establish that pimping wasn't. Deals were going down from watching non-verbal communication, but I've never seen it. Apart from shared spliffs outside. And no I haven't. Tempting though.

Two of my team members have had to be forbidden from giving money. One with a £500 gas bill.

And yeah, I'm a total hypocrite. And one just doesn't have time to get forensic about it or go to a cash point, then go to a late night shop to put 'electric' or gas on an electronic key.

I'm getting to the point of budgeting a couple of fivers a Friday night.

I gave a guy a lift on Friday and felt a total bastard for having nothing to give. The previous week I had to tell him how to wash socks with soap. Or keep your first layer on in the shower. Been there, done that. He spends a hundred pounds a week on food and power. I don't. I need to spend time that doesn't exist exploring that.

I wish I had nothing to give. But the power to transform lives ...

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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The housing one is a hot button issue in France, which has a major housing crisis, especially in the big cities. I can't find the statistics in English, but Le Parisien has a fairly typical article in French.

The highlights: for the whole country somewhere between 400 000 and 600 000 homes are considered "unworthy" (indigne), and a report by the Fondation Abbé Pierre suggests that as many as 200 000 homes should be classified as "squalid" (insalubre). Last year there were 2 283 prosecutions, mostly in the rental sector. In the Parisian region, which is the worst hit, 887 homes were prosecuted as squalid. Overall, France is short of the best part of 1 million homes. (Squalid means a real danger to the health and safety of the inhabitant(s) - things like severe damp, dangerous electrical installations, fire risk, overcrowding…)

Unsuitable and illegal "accommodation" gets rented out all the time. For example, I saw a report on the TV a while back about a building that has rooms in its basement that are meant to be used as laundry rooms. They get rented out for people to live in, completely illegally (renting a basement as a dwelling is illegal, and usually for good reason - they present a real health risk because of the damp). There are even people living in basements with no windows or ventilation of any kind.

The authorities pretty much never have the tenants removed, though, unless the place is completely beyond the pale, because they know perfectly well that if they do, the bastards who rent them out will find someone else to move in within the week. The housing crisis is that bad. When it's a choice between a squalid building with trailing electric wires in the hallway and no inside toilet, liable to burn to the ground at any moment (not a rhetorical exaggeration - this has happened), or being in the street, people take the squalid building. The poor you will have always with you…

This sort of thing will only get sorted out when there is concerted action to provide the necessary amount of safe, affordable housing so that people have any kind of real choice. FWIW I get the strong impression (although I don't have statistics to back this up) that the majority of people living in squalid accommodation are not white.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I had always been given that advice, but I have started to have doubts recently - having had more contact with people with serious alcohol problems. If you are actually alcohol dependent, stopping drinking without medical supervision (often inpatient care) is actually very dangerous. So in the end, what do we achieve, when we know so little about the individual at the moment at which they ask ?

Not to mention that someone who is severely addicted isn't all that likely to skip their fix if they don't have money - they'll just get into a stranger's car or break into someone's house. The addiction will be met, somehow.

The "don't feed them and they'll go away" mentality is very sad. We talk that way about rats and pigeons - have we got to that point with humans now?

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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Kit Withnail was homeless and has written this:

quote:
It's none of your business what someone spends the money you give them on. You aren't 'keeping them in a cycle of dependency'. You aren't 'contributing to the drugs trade'. Yeah, lots of homeless people are addicted to drugs. Yeah, lots are to alcohol. Yeah, they spend money on it. But exactly what do you think you are doing denying them even the possibility of help? Do you think you control addiction by keeping someone in the rain, in the cold? Do you think you control addiction by giving a sarcastic sausage roll? Do you know why they're addicted? Has it occurred to you that all they want is to stop hurting and stop feeling? You really want to help? Give them money. Even just talk to them!
Source

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Or a hot shower.

Several years ago, I was volunteering in a cold weather shelter (church basement with cots and restrooms but no bathing facilities). Basically, all we offered was the possibility of not freezing to death overnight. A new guest preparing to leave in the morning broke down on learning there were no accommodations for bathing.

I lived nearby. I wanted to take the guest away with me and and offer use of my shower; those in charge sternly forbade this. I wish now I had provided the shower first and asked forgiveness for breaking the @#$#@! rule afterward.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Not to mention that someone who is severely addicted isn't all that likely to skip their fix if they don't have money - they'll just get into a stranger's car or break into someone's house. The addiction will be met, somehow.

The "don't feed them and they'll go away" mentality is very sad. We talk that way about rats and pigeons - have we got to that point with humans now?

It is an extremely depressing state of affairs.
But unless we Christians can adopt the tough love approach of our fore-bearers, (zero tolerance, signing the pledge ect.), then I think we do more good by leaving it to professionals.

Thinking about it, there is no comparison between addiction problems today and the days of Booth and Wesley . I mean back then there was no national help-network, no welfare state .
The choice was stark and radical , you either changed you ways or continued your gin-soaked existence.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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quote:
by giving a sarcastic sausage roll?
I give hot coffee and sausage rolls. I've never thought of myself as doing so in a sarcastic manner. If I were in a cold doorway, I'd want something hot. I have a real concern that there might be someone behind a person on the streets (e.g. a pimp) and that money might just be passed on.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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What do you think happens to the individual if they are unable to pass on as much money as expected ?
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
North East Quine

Curious beastie
# 13049

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I don't know. I have a cousin-of-sorts who spiralled down into drug addiction /prostitution / homelessness. I gave her money "for electricity" at the outset, knowing she was using cannabis, but not knowing she was on heroin. If I could have my time over, I'd have given her food but not money.

ETA - she's turned her life round and is now drug-free, in a relationship, with a nice home and doing well.

[ 28. February 2013, 10:50: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I lived nearby. I wanted to take the guest away with me and and offer use of my shower; those in charge sternly forbade this. I wish now I had provided the shower first and asked forgiveness for breaking the @#$#@! rule afterward.

The reason for forbidding it is, a desperate person returns to the place they got help once, hoping for help again. Wouldn't you?

I have a near homeless man doing my yard work for two hours every Saturday, for which I pay him. He knocks on my door Tuesday, or Thursday, sometimes several times a week, saying he needs money "to buy gas so he can finish mowing the yard" of a neighbor. Why my door? He's gotten money from me so I must be as source of money. Makes sense, right?

Give a shower to the gal, she'll ask for another in a few days, wouldn't you?

I've discovered getting involved with a homeless person is for the long haul. The needs are bottomless. And neither of the two I'm involved with drink or do drugs that I can tell.

One huge need is to talk. To have a human being listen. The homeless gal I took in for a few days couple years ago is "back home" 1000 miles away and calls, sometimes daily, she calls me her "lifeline." I finally had to tell her I'm available only on Mondays, she was calling so often wanting to talk for an hour or two. Yard guy likes to talk, too, for 20 minutes or more every time he comes.

I think the homeless life is lonely, you feel devalued, like no one loves you. That's hard. So if someone shows personal kindness you go there again, desperate for more.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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The homeless are devalued, judged, pitied, loathed, etc., rarely simply accepted at the same value as non-homeless.
Your situation is not atypical, Belle Ringer. Very well said post.

Helping might not always be easy or comfortable. Beats the shame of not helping, though.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
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# 13379

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The homeless are devalued, judged, pitied, loathed, etc., rarely simply accepted at the same value as non-homeless.

One of the problems in trying to get a job is people assume homeless = on drugs or mentally ill.

So you have to hide your homelessness. But you have no address to put on application forms, except the address the employers know is really the charity or government job hunt office for homeless.

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