Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Wedding without the vows
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
So I recently read this news story all about a lady who is ill, and will die soon, and who arranged a "wedding" so that she could experience the joy and happiness of having her big day, even though she had no-one to get married to. The news article goes on about what a wonderful thing it was, but it left me rather toubled.... First obviously it is all very sad that this lady is ill, and I would not want to be unkind to her in the face of her suffering. The situation also makes it rather unique too, so I accept that this is unlikely to become common place. The story does raise questions about what people think is going on at a wedding. The flowers, the dress, the party, the cars etc etc are all in my understanding built around the kernel of two people making committments to one another. In my mind if you take that away then what is left is meaningless. However that does not seem to be the view in this case, and seems to suggest that the trapping all have value of themselves - a celebration of self-indulgence. The sympathetic way that the story has been reported sends an uncomfortable message that this is a good thing - something to aspire to - that people who never will get married, because they are unable or unwilling to make lifelong committments can still have a wedding. I think this would be an ugly development. However, perhaps looking for the positives, such a move would allow for a reclaiming of marriage, in the same way that all the "winterval"* nonsense has allowed christmas to be reclaimed for the celebration of the incarnation. So having a self centred orgy of consumption and indulgence for a day becomes something that all sorts of people might do at some moment in their lives, but is not the same thing as making a commitment to a marriage, which is something else, but might for some people occur at the same time.
* I am well aware that "winterval" was a tabloid scare story that was well wide of the mark.
-------------------- It's more important to be kind than to be right.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
One wants to fell sympathy for this poor girl, but this does sound like a rather grotesque example of what weddings are becoming in our times- self indulgent festivals of affirmation for the bride. I mean, they don't even need a groom for this one!
No comment on my upcoming nuptials. [ 21. April 2013, 13:18: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I assume that's the one where they had a male model as a stand-in for the groom.
It's the second one I've heard of recently. But I get the impression that in some quarters secular weddings are beginning to be seen more as parties than solemn ceremonies of commitment.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I read that story too, Codepoet.
I'm afraid for many - particularly young women - the wedding is totally and solely about "their" day and the only elements they consider important are their dress, the hen weekend, reception, evening disco, jewellery, etc, etc, etc.
I realised this was the case some time ago but my PP - lovely man, so naive - was completely floored to be told by a would-be bride after a service: we'll let you know Vicar, we've got 4 more venues to look at.
It was 3 years ago that we were told, in all seriousness, by a would-be groom that he didn't want "all that till death do us part stuff": his original choice of "hymns" was Jerusalem and Swing low, sweet chariot and the theme from The Vicar of Dibley (aka Psalm 23 set by Howard Goodall. She wanted The Ride of the Valkyries and wondered if she could have the theme tune from Emmerdale to walk up the aisle - Oh, and could one of their relatives go up to the top of the tower to release the "traditional doves"
Sadly, their lurve didn't survive the engagement but I notice we have her brother getting married later this year so we're bracing ourselves...
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think there is a focus these days on The Wedding being a big event and celebration, the actual event of the two people getting together being very much lost in the midst of it, especially as, so much of the time, they have been living as if married for several years, while they save up.
I don;t see a problem as such with a women who wants to have a big celebration and all of the stuff, I do have a problem with calling it a wedding. it wasn't - at the heart of a wedding is two people making their public commitment to each other. That was missing in this case.
Maybe there should be a return to "jumping the broomstick", and other such folk events, taking place amidst general celebration, but without the same level of fuss.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Codepoet
Best Bear On Board
# 5964
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.
Do they result in a marriage though?
-------------------- It's more important to be kind than to be right.
Posts: 1156 | From: Southampton | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Codepoet: quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.
Do they result in a marriage though?
Every time.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sorry, I'm having a difficult time seeing any reason to be concerned. Understand, marriage is an important thing to me. I do not see the idea of commitment as trivial. However, I could give a toss about weddings. Self-indulgent, trivial, vain, over-priced, divisive, etc. The whole thing lost the plot ages ago. Nothing, save perhaps mandating everyone have one, could further debase the concept than it already has been.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Sorry, I'm having a difficult time seeing any reason to be concerned. Understand, marriage is an important thing to me. I do not see the idea of commitment as trivial. However, I could give a toss about weddings. Self-indulgent, trivial, vain, over-priced, divisive, etc. The whole thing lost the plot ages ago. Nothing, save perhaps mandating everyone have one, could further debase the concept than it already has been.
Amen
-------------------- Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
There's a sacramental dimension to marriage that is getting obscured (making this sort of thing a little blasphemous? if not simply quite sad).
Having said that, a culture that normalizes pre-marital relationships and condones/justifies extra-marital goings on seems like the perfect place for a faux wedding for one.
-------------------- "He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
True. It's only a step removed from the $20-$50 K consumerist extravaganzas that do happen to have a groom.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Among some Greek and Ukrainian Orthodox, a young umarried woman who dies is buried in a wedding dress. Since the young woman in the article is terminally ill and apparently not likely to marry, who would begrudge her this pre-mortem appearance in a wedding dress?
I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.
Condemn the wedding industry all you want. As far as I'm concerned it's merely a spin-off business of the church's traditional marketing message about women: "You have beauty and dignity ONLY IF you marry a man."
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leaf: Among some Greek and Ukrainian Orthodox, a young umarried woman who dies is buried in a wedding dress. Since the young woman in the article is terminally ill and apparently not likely to marry, who would begrudge her this pre-mortem appearance in a wedding dress?
I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.
Exactly how I feel about this.
A young woman with a bucket list of things to do before she dies, including dressing up as a bride for a day, is not demeaning actual marriage the way that people who abuse their actual marriages are. IMO.
-------------------- "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Laurelin: quote: Originally posted by Leaf:
I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.
Exactly how I feel about this.
A young woman with a bucket list of things to do before she dies, including dressing up as a bride for a day, is not demeaning actual marriage the way that people who abuse their actual marriages are. IMO.
Yes. Just to clarify (as I see now the context is unclear), my more negative comments were in reference to the broader discussion we'd segued into about the broader culture and the consumerist frenzy that is the wedding industry. [ 22. April 2013, 17:01: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Laurelin: quote: Originally posted by Leaf: Among some Greek and Ukrainian Orthodox, a young umarried woman who dies is buried in a wedding dress. Since the young woman in the article is terminally ill and apparently not likely to marry, who would begrudge her this pre-mortem appearance in a wedding dress?
I can't find it in my heart to condemn her for it. She's a 23-year-old very sick woman who wanted to feel beautiful for a little while.
Exactly how I feel about this.
A young woman with a bucket list of things to do before she dies, including dressing up as a bride for a day, is not demeaning actual marriage the way that people who abuse their actual marriages are. IMO.
I sort of agree. I mean, if dressing in that particular kind of dress and having a big party was something she really wanted, sure. I think calling it a wedding and hiring a groom is weird, and I don't understand why, if you think on some level you want or need or deserve a big party where you're the centre of attention (I mean apart from if you're dying like the girl in this story) why don't you just throw yourself a huge birthday party at an expensive hotel or something?
I do think it's worth thinking about "milestones" for people who never marry. One of my best friends bought her first home at about age 40 -- she was not married and had no prospect of marriage at the time (nor has since). Since she had put in years and years of hosting and attending wedding showers and baby showers for all of her married friends, we church ladies and some of her other friends got together and threw her a housewarming shower. Why should she miss out on getting a whole bunch of nice gear for her new house just because she wasn't getting a husband along with it? That kind of thing makes perfect sense to me. Hiring a stand-in husband, not so much.
-------------------- Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Besides what everyone else is saying - looking at the photos makes me wonder what her surviving friends and family are being put through for this, and what they'll be left with. Photos of her fake wedding? Pictures of her play-acting a wedding will only remind them she died before finding a husband to actually marry.
It's good for the local economy, though, I suppose, if someone had all that money to throw around.
But why not just throw a big party, with a beautiful dress? She was a bit old for a quinceañera, but something similar could have been done.
I really can't bring myself to have strong feelings one way or the other, though. I just find it baffling.
-------------------- I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: Orthodox wedding ceremonies -- even the ones with two marriands -- don't have vows.
This is more of a Byzantine Rite thing than an Orthodox thing. Byzantine Rite Catholic weddings similarly have no vows, while Western Rite Orthodox ones do.
-------------------- If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I agree what she had was a wedding-themed fancy dress party. I'm sorry for the cultural conditioning, and limited imaginative horizons that meant that was the summit of her ambition. I imagine there were people involved to whom it must have been desperately, painfully hollow.
But maybe, to couples cohabiting, the wedding is a Real Thing, not essentially connected to the domestic situation pre and post? Like an exotic holiday?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: I get the impression that in some quarters secular weddings are beginning to be seen more as parties than solemn ceremonies of commitment.
Whatever would give you that impression? I think you can safely strike "in some quarters", "secular", and "beginning to be" from the above sentence, and you'd still be making a safe generalization about many times and places, ever since Cana. That's why our quiet, bookish, pipe-smoking Dad, who once freely confessed to being "anti-social", told my sister and me as kids that it wouldn't bother him at all if we were just to drive up to the house someday, bounce out of the car with our beloved, and chirp "Guess what? We're married." (Nevertheless, when in due course she wanted a proper church wedding with a reasonable amount of trimmings, he was unstinting. )
For those dads able and willing to throw big parties, no opportunity in their whole life is likely to beat a child's wedding. Stravinsky had the same impression you do when he composed Les Noces so long ago and with Russia in mind. It would appear that everyone gradually gets falling-over drunk. On the BBC only last week was a story about a small group in the Middle East (Yemen) opposed to the tradition of "chewing cat [?]" at weddings-- evidently some drug that I haven't heard of yet. (How could this happen? ) Guests often show up, invited or not, with no other purpose in mind, and they zone out to the extent that they become oblivious to everything, including the bride and bridegroom.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister: Byzantine Rite Catholic weddings similarly have no vows, while Western Rite Orthodox ones do.
Furthermore, we should bear in mind that even in societies where vows are common, they are not everywhere the same. Do couples always vow language like "forsaking all others, keep thyself only...". My motley experience as organist suggests that this might not always be the case. And, it occurred to me during the Bill & Monica brouhaha, that most of us who commented and gossiped didn't know for a fact what vows Bill & Hillary had made. Lawyers tend to be fussy about the terms of a contract, you know.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alogon: ... opposed to the tradition of "chewing cat [?]" at weddings-- evidently some drug that I haven't heard of yet. (How could this happen? )
I live to serve. Khat. Also see this sort of thing. The Toronto area has a huge Somali diaspora, hence the use of khat.
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
At a 'typical' western wedding...
The father of the bride and the bride commonly pretend that he can 'give her away', as though she was under his control rather than being an independent person who has long since left home.
The couple pretend they are coming together in a new relationship, rather than formalising their existing cohabitation.
The couple pretend that the marriage is about having children, even if the children came first.
The wedding party and congregation pretend to believe in a god, to whom they pray and whose name they invoke in the ceremony, even if they have no such belief.
The bride pretends to be virginal in white, even though that ship has long since sailed.
The couple and whoever is paying may hire a big house and pretend to be lords of the place, even though it's only rented for the day.
Everyone involved pretends that the wedding (vows or not) is for ever, even if most would be horrified at the thought of divorce not being an option.
The bride may pretend to some form of nobility, in a borrowed tiara.
The couple may pretend to be royalty, seated on thrones.
Not all apply at every wedding, of course, but there are other things that could be added for many. If we got rid of pretence at weddings, how much would be left?
-------------------- At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Oh Chapelhead, how cynical, if accurate!
There are alternatives... 1. Ed's wife left him (took to financial cleaners), shacking up with his ertwhile best friend before emigrating with the children; Clare's husband decided he preferred his fellow man and moved in with his mate Jonno.
2. After a period of years (7 for him, 10 for her) Ed and Clare met, fell in love, and thought about marriage - perhaps children.
3. Both churchgoers, they approached their respective PPs both of whom pronounced that they couldn't marry in church - Clare's told her any second marriage would only be adultery.
4. Gritting teeth went for "christian" counselling where they were urged to "repent" for their failures in faithfulness (!!!) and wait for a year before thinking about committing to each other.
5. They actually waited - went back to counselling and got the same line.
6. At this point common sense took over (biological clock may have had something to do with it). Went on holiday (still in separate rooms) stood alone in tiny Greek church and said their vows.
7. Returned to UK, moved in together (her place); at church on first Sunday requested interview with PP who, when told what they'd done responded they weren't welcome at communion.
8. 3 children later, and a move, and finally they got a PP who, when told they weren't married responded with "why on earth not".
9. Wedding organised in 6 weeks flat - friends in congregation rallied round. Self-catering, pretty dress, children and their Godparents all there. Reception was a parish party - total cost less than £1,200 - this in 2005.
10. Couple are still very happy and friends happy for them...
BUT Clare's old PP, when he heard of the nuptials, sent the most unpleasant letter I've ever seen: adulterers, fornicators, faithless, sin against God, etc, etc, etc. Of course, he'll still marry anyone else so long as they go along with the fiction they don't co-habit - what a hypocrite.
No pretence for this couple but what about the "good on marriage" PPs.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chapelhead: The bride may pretend to some form of nobility, in a borrowed tiara.
The couple may pretend to be royalty, seated on thrones.
Great post. I'd just quibble with the above.
These customs are reminiscent of a traditional "crowning" ceremony in old wedding rites, and as matter of faith they are no pretense. The Prince of Peace has made us His brothers and sisters. We would probably be better off if we regarded one another, and ourselves, as royalty more often rather than less. I've been known occasionally to address children at church as "Prince Peter" or "Princess Barbara" with no ironic intent whatsoever, because such they are. Archbishop Runcie (of blessed memory) said something like this during the wedding of Charles and Diana.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote: posted by Alogon Archbishop Runcie (of blessed memory) said something like this during the wedding of Charles and Diana.
That he did - and we all know how that turned out...
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist:
1. Ed's wife left him (took to financial cleaners), shacking up with his ertwhile best friend before emigrating with the children; Clare's husband decided he preferred his fellow man and moved in with his mate Jonno.
2. After a period of years (7 for him, 10 for her) Ed and Clare met, fell in love, and thought about marriage - perhaps children.
3. Both churchgoers, they approached their respective PPs both of whom pronounced that they couldn't marry in church - Clare's told her any second marriage would only be adultery.
4. Gritting teeth went for "christian" counselling where they were urged to "repent" for their failures in faithfulness (!!!) and wait for a year before thinking about committing to each other.
5. They actually waited - went back to counselling and got the same line.
6. At this point common sense took over (biological clock may have had something to do with it). Went on holiday (still in separate rooms) stood alone in tiny Greek church and said their vows.
7. Returned to UK, moved in together (her place); at church on first Sunday requested interview with PP who, when told what they'd done responded they weren't welcome at communion.
8. 3 children later, and a move, and finally they got a PP who, when told they weren't married responded with "why on earth not".
9. Wedding organised in 6 weeks flat - friends in congregation rallied round. Self-catering, pretty dress, children and their Godparents all there. Reception was a parish party - total cost less than £1,200 - this in 2005.
10. Couple are still very happy and friends happy for them...
BUT Clare's old PP, when he heard of the nuptials, sent the most unpleasant letter I've ever seen: adulterers, fornicators, faithless, sin against God, etc, etc, etc. Of course, he'll still marry anyone else so long as they go along with the fiction they don't co-habit - what a hypocrite.
No pretence for this couple but what about the "good on marriage" PPs.
To me, the moral of this story is that things would be so much easier if churchgoers tried to find out what their church or a pastor actually believed on these commonplace issues before making themselves at home in a church fellowship. Why be part of a church if you don't share its hardline positions, or if you fundamentally disagree with the minister? You're just storing up trouble for yourself.
We seem to have reached the stage where people care more about the music and the atmosphere in church than about its doctrines and teachings. Or maybe it's just that people don't really care about the teachings unless their own lives are directly affected. This may be true of weddings as of other things.
(As it happens, the British Methodist Church, of which I was recently a member, is one of the most liberal denominations when it comes to remarriage. At one stage, most of the marriages they conducted involved divorcees. I don't know if this is still true now that there's more latitude in the CofE.)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote: At a 'typical' western wedding...
Like most symbolic affairs, the reality doesn't always live up to the symbol. The doesn't mean it's all a pretense.
quote: The bride may pretend to some form of nobility, in a borrowed tiara.
The couple may pretend to be royalty, seated on thrones.
Crowning the couple is still part of the Orthodox ceremony. Something about Christ's royal priesthood, I imagine, though the Orthodox would be able to explain it better. [ 04. May 2013, 12:11: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
-------------------- Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: To me, the moral of this story is that things would be so much easier if churchgoers tried to find out what their church or a pastor actually believed on these commonplace issues before making themselves at home in a church fellowship. Why be part of a church if you don't share its hardline positions, or if you fundamentally disagree with the minister? You're just storing up trouble for yourself.
We seem to have reached the stage where people care more about the music and the atmosphere in church than about its doctrines and teachings. Or maybe it's just that people don't really care about the teachings unless their own lives are directly affected. This may be true of weddings as of other things.
Or possibly the fact that it: - is no more conservative than any other church within a reasonable distance
- has an active Sunday School which the children enjoy, which gives them a good grounding, and which provokes interesting discussions on the way home
- contains a broad spectrum of attitudes within the congregation and on the whole people get on despite their differences
- has a strong social justice outreach
- used to have a more liberal pastor, and may be will again
are also factors?
I don't tend to choose a church solely by it's teachings on marriage.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Haydee
I agree that there are lots of factors that go into choosing a church, but I'm becoming ever more convinced that you have to explore the nature of a church quite thoughtfully before committing yourself to it. Just looking for a nice atmosphere and/or a commitment to social justice, a friendly minister, etc. isn't enough. And marriage is hardly an abstract theological matter, but is a fundamental aspect of human existence that affects all of us, directly or indirectly. It affects us to such an extent that a dying women without a groom feels inspired to have a 'wedding' ceremony!
As I see it, the situation is that many of these evangelical churches are lively, busy places, which some people find attractive. Many new members are joining up because of these positive aspects without considering what the challenges will be.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I have every sympathy with the lady in the OP.
In the last two years I have attended about six weddings as a guest. Two marriages have already ended, and another two are on the rocks. All six receptions were excruciatingly boring; especially the speeches delivered by the brides' fathers' and the best men. Dire. Everyone wanted to get to the bar.
Perhaps the time has come to re-examine the whole notion of two people shackled together for life , and whether this is actually sensible - at all. What may have been appropriate and useful in past ages, may not be a model for today.
It is perfectly possible for two people to get through life without a crutch, or with the right leg of one tied to the left of the other.
So a ceremony and party for all? Why not. One, or both can dress up as a meringue and enjoy a dinner.
And if someone reaches (say) thirty and is 'unmarried', why not give them the presents anyway.
-------------------- sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
After my mother realized that I would probably never marry, for several years she gave me a great piece of kitchen gear for each birthday and Christmas. I still appreciate both the practicality of the gifts and the acceptance of my choices that they symbolize.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SvitlanaV2: Haydee
I agree that there are lots of factors that go into choosing a church, but I'm becoming ever more convinced that you have to explore the nature of a church quite thoughtfully before committing yourself to it. Just looking for a nice atmosphere and/or a commitment to social justice, a friendly minister, etc. isn't enough. And marriage is hardly an abstract theological matter, but is a fundamental aspect of human existence that affects all of us, directly or indirectly. It affects us to such an extent that a dying women without a groom feels inspired to have a 'wedding' ceremony!
As I see it, the situation is that many of these evangelical churches are lively, busy places, which some people find attractive. Many new members are joining up because of these positive aspects without considering what the challenges will be.
As a middle aged single mother of 2 (adopted) children my church's stance on marriage is just about the last thing I looked at when joining my current congregation. In fact I didn't consider it at all (and it's not a 'buzzy' evangelical church).
Could I refer you to the thread on single women in church, and the general expectation that Real Christians are only adult if married?
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Haydee: As a middle aged single mother of 2 (adopted) children my church's stance on marriage is just about the last thing I looked at when joining my current congregation. In fact I didn't consider it at all (and it's not a 'buzzy' evangelical church).
Could I refer you to the thread on single women in church, and the general expectation that Real Christians are only adult if married?
I suppose you didn't consider it because you didn't think it applied to you. As I said, that's just human nature. But by that token, it would be a bit unfair of you (or anyone else in the same situation) to express deep disapproval of these teachings if your personal life changed and suddenly the church's teachings on these matters DID apply to you!
As for the thread about single women in the church, that's relevant to me because I am single, and I do think churches have some issues with that. However, the discussion on that thread is mostly about evangelical churches looking to pair single people up, whereas in my faith tradition, aging is by far the more prominent issue, so young, single women, while lacking a certain status, are desperately needed to contribute their time and commitment to the church. Finding husbands for them is hardly a priority. (Especially since there really is hardly anyone for them to marry in the church!)
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