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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Public holidays on the right days
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Saint Henry Ate and Eddy Six cut down on the number of holy days for pretty brazenly economic reasons, so maybe Protestantism is at least one of the factors.
Zach82, you may be surprised to hear that a surprisingly large number of the traditional holy days lasted as public holidays in England until the mid-nineteenth century.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The UK is also different from most of Europe in its post-war remembrance: in France, for example, everything comes to a halt on 3rd September to mark the anniversary of the outbreak of WWII, and the same thing happens on 11th November. But in the UK it was decided after the 39-45 war that there should be Remembrance Sunday so, rather than keeping 11th November, it falls on the Sunday closest to it.
Yes, so as not to disrupt the profit machine. Even commemorating the dead and praying for peace is not sacrosanct.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
This is a UK practice that we didn't pick up here in Australia. There is sometimes much grumbling by employer groups about the extra days lost when people create a long weekend, eg just recently Anzac Day fell on a Thursday and it was fully expected that a lot of people would either take the Friday as a holiday or 'call in sick' on the Friday. However, the grumbling fails to generate change.
And when a holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday, we get the following Monday as a public holiday instead.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I should have added. May Day was not a public holiday in England either on May 1st or the first Monday afterwards until introduced by Harold Wilson (anyone remember who he was?) in the late 1960s. New Year's Day was only a public holiday in Scotland until sometime around then. I can remember working on New Year's Day. I don't think Christmas Day was a public holiday in Scotland until about the same time.
The public holiday that's now somewhat meaninglessly fixed on a Monday at the end of May used to be Whit Monday, and actually was the Monday after Whitsunday, which of course moves.
One curiosity (to me) I found visiting Scotland in the early summer a few years ago was that individual towns had their own official and binding public holidays on different dates. Is that still the case?
[ 08. May 2013, 22:02: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In the Middle Ages, and still today in much of Catholic Europe, celebrations of the church and of the people take priority over the needs of the capitalism money-machine. Did the Reformation set in train the triumph of profit over people?
1 – Despite the best efforts of some religious adherents we are no longer in the Middle Ages – and anyone who is receiving a pension, has had antibiotics or an inoculation, chooses to use a computer, travels other than by foot (their own or those of some domesticated animals’) etc. etc. etc. should be very glad we’re not.
2 – As you point out some Bank Holidays are specifically related to the beliefs of a particular, and decreasingly small, religious group. Whilst this is not in itself important it does indicate the pervasive influence of christianity (the same christianity that some believers choose to see as persecuted because a few of its historic privileges are being questioned) within the UK.
3 – In France they have been celebrating Victory in Europe Day today and will celebrate Ascension tomorrow – but France, like other countries traditionally under the yoke of the RCC, is hardly part of “Catholic Europe” (The state may maintain the churches but relatively few attend and the state has just successfully ignored the RCC over SSM).
Perhaps it’s not “the triumph of profit over people” but, maybe – just maybe, it’s a sign of the ultimate triumph of the people over religion
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I should have added. May Day was not a public holiday in England either on May 1st or the first Monday afterwards until introduced by Harold Wilson (anyone remember who he was?) in the late 1960s.
Margaret Thatcher, I think, mooted the idea of moving this 'Socialist holiday' to 21st October, Trafalgar Day, but it never happened. I think it'd be a good idea, though - if nothing else it would create an oasis in the public holiday desert between 31 August and 25 December.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Anglican't
Margaret Thatcher, I think, mooted the idea of moving this 'Socialist holiday' to 21st October, Trafalgar Day, but it never happened. I think it'd be a good idea, though - if nothing else it would create an oasis in the public holiday desert between 31 August and 25 December.
For quite a long period of our history there was a holiday on 25th October - St Crispins Day.
Nice idea to have a day off in October but, face it, neither Trafalgar nor Agincourt is going to make the French happy ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I think all holidays should be on Thursdays so people (at least some people) would get a 4-day holiday.
(In USA they were set for Monday to give 3-day weekends, back when offices didn't close for Thanksgiving Friday.)
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
3 – In France they have been celebrating Victory in Europe Day today and will celebrate Ascension tomorrow – but France, like other countries traditionally under the yoke of the RCC, is hardly part of “Catholic Europe” (The state may maintain the churches but relatively few attend and the state has just successfully ignored the RCC over SSM).
Perhaps it’s not “the triumph of profit over people” but, maybe – just maybe, it’s a sign of the ultimate triumph of the people over religion
Nice post, as usual! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) One of my sons, who has been working in Spain and France for years now, says that the people there are very good at thinking something like, well, there's a day off on Wednesday, so we might as well stay off work Thursday and Friday...
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This is a UK practice that we didn't pick up here in Australia. There is sometimes much grumbling by employer groups about the extra days lost when people create a long weekend, eg just recently Anzac Day fell on a Thursday and it was fully expected that a lot of people would either take the Friday as a holiday or 'call in sick' on the Friday. However, the grumbling fails to generate change.
True, we only have a couple of public holidays linked to religious festivals and they are always on the proper days, except if either/both of Christmas/Boxing Days are shifted to after the end of a weekend.
I have heard my parents saying that they thought it was only a relatively recent move (~25 years ago) to have Australia Day and ANZAC Day declared as public holidays on the actual day rather than the next Monday. It could just be their grey-tinted view of how tough it was when they were kids, do you know if this is correct?
I'm happy with all the other civic holidays being long weekends, but I wouldn't mind if at least one was on a Friday instead of a Monday. Perhaps the
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I've long thought that in a secular society public holidays attached to holy days should be abolished. So I expect to see all good secularists working on Christmas Day and Good Friday, thanks very much. Oh, and Sundays, too. I think people of faith should be guaranteed the opportunity to worship on holy days (the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion is a human right guaranteed in secular law) but I don't see why people should have the whole day off work.
On the other hand, I have a deep religious devotion to the medieval British saint, St Monday - a feast day created by workers who were fond of a long weekend!
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Originally posted by Giant Cheeseburger:
I have heard my parents saying that they thought it was only a relatively recent move (~25 years ago) to have Australia Day and ANZAC Day declared as public holidays on the actual day rather than the next Monday. It could just be their grey-tinted view of how tough it was when they were kids, do you know if this is correct?
Yes, I can't give you an exact date off the top of my head, but it's a relatively recent practice.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
On Remembrance Day/Sunday in the UK: while the official commemorations take place on the Sunday, I remember that there was a growing move among the public to mark the two minutes' silence wherever they happened to be, which is to my mind a good thing. Those who wish to sit in front of the TV and watch the broadcast from the Cenotaph may do so on the Sunday, and those who wish to participate in local events may do so too. But employers enable the silence by switching phones to night service, and supermarkets request the silence over the tannoy, so that everyone may take the two minutes. I once went out to the supermarket on Saturday 11 November so that I would be in a public place when 11am came.
With Anzac Day and Australia Day here, the public holiday may be moved if it falls on a weekend, but the observation itself is not moved. That puts them in the same category as Christmas Day and Boxing Day; the public holiday is moved, but when 25 December falls on a Saturday we don't wait until the Monday to celebrate.
I said 'may' be moved because it is not universal. While everyone gets a weekday public holiday for Australia Day, only some states grant a weekday public holiday if Anzac Day falls at the weekend; one state, IIRC, makes a distinction as to whether it falls on Saturday or Sunday, too.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
1 – Despite the best efforts of some religious adherents we are no longer in the Middle Ages – and anyone who is receiving a pension, has had antibiotics or an inoculation, chooses to use a computer, travels other than by foot (their own or those of some domesticated animals’) etc. etc. etc. should be very glad we’re not.
Of course. But what relevance is this to the subject? The Middle Ages were horrendous in many ways, but for example they produced much wonderful art which we value and want to preserve despite not wanting to preserve the bad things.
quote:
2 – As you point out some Bank Holidays are specifically related to the beliefs of a particular, and decreasingly small, religious group. Whilst this is not in itself important it does indicate the pervasive influence of christianity (the same christianity that some believers choose to see as persecuted because a few of its historic privileges are being questioned) within the UK.
My initial post was prompted as much by the shift of Labour Day away from 1 May (and, doubtless, in the eyes of many, away from its left-wing connotations), as by the sidelining of Ascension. I'm not supporting Christian triumphalism here: I'd be very glad if we celebrated Islamic and Hindu festivals and others too. As well as secular days and events. But we have fewer public holidays than most of our European neighbours and the ones we have are more or less arbitrary dates than occasions for celebration. That I think is a pity.
quote:
3 – In France they have been celebrating Victory in Europe Day today and will celebrate Ascension tomorrow – but France, like other countries traditionally under the yoke of the RCC, is hardly part of “Catholic Europe” (The state may maintain the churches but relatively few attend and the state has just successfully ignored the RCC over SSM).
That's my point really. France is an even more secular country than the UK, yet they can celebrate such holidays.
quote:
Perhaps it’s not “the triumph of profit over people” but, maybe – just maybe, it’s a sign of the ultimate triumph of the people over religion
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) I really don't know what to make of this comment. If you think that our society isn't dedicated to the pursuit of wealth (for some) at all costs, and that all human activity is to be directed to that end, then you are living in far more of a fantasy world than any religious fanatic.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Here in Canada the government decided a few years back that there were a couple of holidays -- Remembrance Day on November 11 is one of them, and I think perhaps Canada Day on July 1, and of course Christmas was always in that category -- that were so important they had to be observed on the actual day not on the nearest Monday. This makes sense, I guess, but I must admit I'm always very happy when one of those holidays falls on either a Monday or a Friday so we get a long weekend. Our other statutory holidays are generally held on the nearest Monday (except Good Friday which is obviously a Friday anyway).
There's no holiday drought in the fall here -- we have Labour Day in September, Thanksgiving in October and Remembrance Day in November. It's the Christmas-till-Easter stretch that gets a bit thin around here.
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Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
One curiosity (to me) I found visiting Scotland in the early summer a few years ago was that individual towns had their own official and binding public holidays on different dates. Is that still the case?
There are local holidays in Scotland, and different regions hold them at different times. So, in Glasgow we get the 8 bank holidays and Fair Monday (15th July this year) with many other cities having a Fair Holiday one of the other mondays in July. Whereas, Edinburgh has an autumn holiday (16th Sept this year) but no July Fair Holiday.
The decisions about dates for holidays is taken by local authorities (including the recognised national holidays, eg: Christmas - although if a council proposed to scrap New Year they'd likely be lynched!). A lot of the holidays that aren't nationally recognised are often skipped by employers - especially those with main offices south of the border.
We have long "holiday droughts". The longest by far is over the summer - in Glasgow, no public holidays (excepting the not universally observed Fair Monday) between the Queens Birthday (27th May this year) and Christmas being by far the longest covering all of summer and autumn.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
End of May till Christmas with no public holidays? That's terrible!!
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Alan Cresswell:
There are local holidays in Scotland, and different regions hold them at different times. So, in Glasgow we get the 8 bank holidays and Fair Monday (15th July this year) with many other cities having a Fair Holiday one of the other mondays in July. Whereas, Edinburgh has an autumn holiday (16th Sept this year) but no July Fair Holiday.
However, whether you get these local Bank Holidays depends upon who you work for...
When I worked for the University, I was entitled to a Bank Holiday at the beginning and end of May, and Fair Monday. But I didn't get the September weekend holiday. Now I work for the NHS, I get the first holiday in May, I don't get Fair Monday, but I do get September. On the whole, I'd rather have the September one as it breaks up an otherwise long stretch between July & Dec.
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Dormouse
Glis glis – Ship's rodent
# 5954
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The UK is also different from most of Europe in its post-war remembrance: in France, for example, everything comes to a halt on 3rd September to mark the anniversary of the outbreak of WWII, and the same thing happens on 11th November. But in the UK it was decided after the 39-45 war that there should be Remembrance Sunday so, rather than keeping 11th November, it falls on the Sunday closest to it. [/QB]
I'm not sure if I'm particularly unobservant, but I've never noticed anything different on 3rd September in France - it's Mr D's birthday so I'm a bit more alert that day! - although yesterday there was a remembrance service at the village memorial for VE Day. I always forget to go to that one, but we do always go to the 11/11 service/ ceremony wearing our poppies - which have been the cause of several conversations.
Certainly many industries embrace the "pont" (bridge" day) by shrugging shoulders and closing factories etc. So my usual Friday lessons have been cancelled because the plant is closed after the 2 consecutive jours feriés of VE Day and Ascension Day, presumably because it's not worth the expense of opening as so many people will take it as a holiday...Whether employees have to count it as part of their holiday entitlement I don't know.
Most of my students, when we discuss the British method of "the nearest Monday" think it's a great idea, because, of course, when Bank holidays fall at the weekend, they don't get a day off work. It's just "tant pis"...(TR: hard luck)
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Posts: 3042 | From: 'twixt les Bois Noirs & Les Monts de la Madeleine | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
quote:
posted by Alan Cresswell:
There are local holidays in Scotland, and different regions hold them at different times. So, in Glasgow we get the 8 bank holidays and Fair Monday (15th July this year) with many other cities having a Fair Holiday one of the other mondays in July. Whereas, Edinburgh has an autumn holiday (16th Sept this year) but no July Fair Holiday.
However, whether you get these local Bank Holidays depends upon who you work for...
I thought I'd said that. Not only do a lot of employers not give the fair holidays, some give a holiday at the end of August - which certainly for those with school age children is no good at all.
quote:
When I worked for the University, I was entitled to a Bank Holiday at the beginning and end of May, and Fair Monday. But I didn't get the September weekend holiday. Now I work for the NHS, I get the first holiday in May, I don't get Fair Monday, but I do get September. On the whole, I'd rather have the September one as it breaks up an otherwise long stretch between July & Dec.
I'd forgotten that there is a Glasgow Sept holiday, because I'd checked the dates on the uni website! The uni used to take both July and Sept holidays, but cut it down to one to conform to the same number of holidays as other UK universities several years ago. Presumably the NHS (or, at least the local NHS Trust you're with) did the same and chose the other holiday.
I think I prefer a July holiday. But there isn't much difference between an end May-Sept and July-Dec stretch. Schools are off both holidays, and I don't think there's much difference in chances of good weather in July or Sept (most likely lousy on both).
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Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dormouse:
Certainly many industries embrace the "pont" (bridge" day) by shrugging shoulders and closing factories etc. So my usual Friday lessons have been cancelled because the plant is closed after the 2 consecutive jours feriés of VE Day and Ascension Day, presumably because it's not worth the expense of opening as so many people will take it as a holiday...Whether employees have to count it as part of their holiday entitlement I don't know.
We have a 3 day bridge holiday between Christmas and New Year. The university is closed. However, those three days count towards annual leave.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
We have a 3 day bridge holiday between Christmas and New Year. The university is closed. However, those three days count towards annual leave.
Wow. At my university we get from about Dec 22/23 to Jan 3/4 off, and it doesn't count as annual leave.
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Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
... My initial post was prompted as much by the shift of Labour Day away from 1 May (and, doubtless, in the eyes of many, away from its left-wing connotations), as by the sidelining of Ascension. ...
And mine was that 1st May never was a bank holiday in England anyway.
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Enoch;
quote:
One curiosity (to me) I found visiting Scotland in the early summer a few years ago was that individual towns had their own official and binding public holidays on different dates. Is that still the case?
Aberdeen City and Aberdeenshire have different holidays, which is awkward for parents who live in the Shire, but work in the City, or vice versa. (Some of Aberdeen's housing suburbs are actually in the Shire, so this affects a lot of people.)
My village still has half-shut day every Wednesday, although only three of our shops shut - the other three remain open.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
On Remembrance Day/Sunday in the UK: while the official commemorations take place on the Sunday, I remember that there was a growing move among the public to mark the two minutes' silence wherever they happened to be, which is to my mind a good thing.
I disagree as I think it's confusing. Have the Remembrance moment either on the 11th or the Sunday but not both. When I was a child we had the Sunday silence and also a silence at School Assembly on the 11th (but not at 11 am).
Back in 1995 we had FOUR silences as we stopped on VE and VJ Day too!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Most of Europe has a public holiday for Ascension Thursday.In Italy and Spain,as well as Portugal,I think, the liturgical celebration is transferred to the following Sunday and the Thursday is not a public holiday. Although the Catholic church in England moved the liturgical celebration to the following Sunday a few years ago,
Ascension Thursday is still a Holyday of Obligation for Catholics in Scotland.
Local holidays are a complicated matter in Scotland with each town having its own local 'holiday Mondays'.These were originally 'fast days' before the celebration of the Lord's supper.Some Presbyterian bodies still keep a whole series of preparation days before the celebration of the Lord's Supper.In time however the Fast days,which were not really observed as such by the general population, were transferred from the Friday before Communion to the following Monday and became a general local holiday.Here in Edinburgh they are really hardly observed as the shops are opened 7 days a week.In recent years the banks have taken all the English bank holidays which can be a real bind as the expression 'bank holiday' here in Scotland usually just means that the banks are closed on what is otherwise a normal business day.
The May day holiday on the first Monday in May is one of the very few holidays which apply generally to both England and Scotland but bizarrely most of the many private schools in Edinburgh do not observe the May day holiday because of its socialist origins,even although I suppose that the private schools in England have the day as a holiday.
The French are particularly lucky this year as the 8th May is a public holiday (Victoire 1945),the 9th May is a public holiday (Ascension) the 10th May is a holiday for most people (pont de l'Ascension) plus the following Saturday and Sunday free.
For observant Catholics if Ascension is transferred to the following Sunday then they are starting the Pentecost novena before the liturgical celebration of the Ascension.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Most of Europe has a public holiday for Ascension Thursday.In Italy and Spain,as well as Portugal,I think, the liturgical celebration is transferred to the following Sunday and the Thursday is not a public holiday. Although the Catholic church in England moved the liturgical celebration to the following Sunday a few years ago,
Ascension Thursday is still a Holyday of Obligation for Catholics in Scotland.
Local holidays are a complicated matter in Scotland with each town haviunless it is officially a bank holiday.ng its own local 'holiday Mondays'.These were originally 'fast days' before the celebration of the Lord's supper.Some Presbyterian bodies still keep a whole series of preparation days before the celebration of the Lord's Supper.In time however the Fast days,which were not really observed as such by the general population, were transferred from the Friday before Communion to the following Monday and became a general local holiday.Here in Edinburgh they are really hardly observed as the shops are opened 7 days a week.In recent years the banks have taken all the English bank holidays which can be a real bind as the expression 'bank holiday' here in Scotland usually just means that the banks are closed on what is otherwise a normal business day.
The May day holiday on the first Monday in May is one of the very few holidays which apply generally to both England and Scotland but bizarrely most of the many private schools in Edinburgh do not observe the May day holiday because of its socialist origins,even although I suppose that the private schools in England have the day as a holiday.
The French are particularly lucky this year as the 8th May is a public holiday (Victoire 1945),the 9th May is a public holiday (Ascension) the 10th May is a holiday for most people (pont de l'Ascension) plus the following Saturday and Sunday free.
For observant Catholics if Ascension is transferred to the following Sunday then they are starting the Pentecost novena before the liturgical celebration of the Ascension.
That's interesting about the CofS fasts. Also North East Quine's description of a place that still has early closing. That was an important feature of the week forty years ago+, but seems to have died out down here.
I was always told that the reason why public holidays are called 'bank holidays' is that it is an act of bankruptcy for a bank not to be open on a normal working day unless the day is designated as a 'bank holiday'. Otherwise, it's a public statement that the bank has suffered a run and been cleaned out.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
If Hughwillrideme considers that France was a country traditionally 'under the yoke of the RCC' will he also accept that England is a country which is still 'under the yoke of the CofE' ?
About 100 years ago the vast majority of French people,well over 90% self identified as RC,that figure has gone down to about 60% with those who are 'pratiquant'(churchgoers) as opposed to 'croyant' (believers) much ,much lower.However all this is quite voluntary as for over 100 years the State and the church have been completely separate (apart from Alsace and Lorraine) Is this the case in England as far as the CofE is concerned ? From my viewpoint outside of England the CofE enjoys a number of privileges which other bodies do not have.I have no objection to these CofE 'privileges',but if the ?French were traditionally under the yoke of the RCC,are not the English still under the yoke of the CofE ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Whereas, I was told when I moved here that the the Glasgow Fair Monday (in July and Sept) was the last trace of the summer and autumn fairs when livestock was brought to market in town (in early summer) and the crops were brought in (in autumn). Traditionally, these fairs were times when the travelling entertainers etc gathered in town, there was plenty to drink and a general party. As towns became industrialised the markets became less important, but it became a tradition to shut everything down for two weeks at a time and give workers a holiday - which is a pattern that is common in much of the rest of Europe. Now, the fair holidays are whittled down from the whole town taking a two week break to a few employers giving their staff a single Monday.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
1 – Despite the best efforts of some religious adherents we are no longer in the Middle Ages – and anyone who is receiving a pension, has had antibiotics or an inoculation, chooses to use a computer, travels other than by foot (their own or those of some domesticated animals’) etc. etc. etc. should be very glad we’re not.
Of course. But what relevance is this to the subject? The Middle Ages were horrendous in many ways, but for example they produced much wonderful art which we value and want to preserve despite not wanting to preserve the bad things. I took In the Middle Ages, and still today in much of Catholic Europe, celebrations of the church and of the people take priority over the needs of the capitalism money-machine. Did the Reformation set in train the triumph of profit over people? to be a suggestion that you felt the Middle Ages (and some of modern Europe) had it right. I was merely pointing out that people have benefitted immensely from the capitalism driven advancements of the post Middle Ages. Wanting to preserve art may be fine, but what does it have to do with the names and dates of public holidays? My apologies if I misunderstood you. (and for the record I am much in favour of a mixed economy with capitalism's extremes severely shackled
quote:
That's my point really. France is an even more secular country than the UK, yet they can celebrate such holidays. .
Many workers have a day off – that is not the same as joining in a religious (or secular) celebration.
quote:
Perhaps it’s not “the triumph of profit over people” but, maybe – just maybe, it’s a sign of the ultimate triumph of the people over religion I really don't know what to make of this comment. If you think that our society isn't dedicated to the pursuit of wealth (for some) at all costs, and that all human activity is to be directed to that end, then you are living in far more of a fantasy world than any religious fanatic
I’m not sure that society is dedicated to anything – ISTM that it is a tool to facilitate individuals’ needs, albeit a tool that is manipulated by a few for their disproportionate benefit. The pursuit of wealth is simply a result of the evolutionarily implanted need for living entities to survive and reproduce. We tend to value those with the most wealth/status/good looks etc., and those with wealth can use that to improve status and looks. The most valued will probably survive longer and have more opportunities to procreate than the hoi polloi . Social living increases the chances of the survival of the species whilst being valued ( = wealth = power) increases the chances of the survival of the valued’s lineage. Not a lot of room for fantasy in that is there?
Originally posted by Forthview:
quote:
If Hughwillrideme considers that France was a country traditionally 'under the yoke of the RCC' will he also accept that England is a country which is still 'under the yoke of the CofE' ?
Yes – but the weight of that yoke may, almost imperceptibly, be starting to diminish.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
a suggestion that you felt the Middle Ages (and some of modern Europe) had it right. I was merely pointing out that people have benefitted immensely from the capitalism driven advancements of the post Middle Ages. Wanting to preserve art may be fine, but what does it have to do with the names and dates of public holidays?
I'm not sure that all the improvements in the standard of living can be attributed to capitalism. You only have to read Dickens to realise that many people suffered just because of it. But that argument aside, my point was that you don't ditch everything that comes down to us from the Middle Ages just because we've moved on in some respects.
You may dismiss Christianity, and religion in general, but the point is, it is, or should be, counter-cultural and help us to question the prevailing values of society. Insisting on holidays when the money-machine briefly stops (though of course it enables it to keep running in other ways – it's not easy to totally disconnect) is a similar way of being counter-cultural, to say that there are more things in life than profit.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Here in South Africa the public holiday falls on whichever day it falls - which means if it falls on a Saturday then no day off ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
And a day off in the week isn't long enough to do anything or really relax. I prefer the UK system of a long weekend.
And then, with Ascension Day, it used to be a public holiday and isn't now - but the schools are allowed to close so parents have the lovely situation of their children having a day off without them... or rather, having to use annual leave ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I was merely pointing out that people have benefitted immensely from the capitalism driven advancements of the post Middle Ages.
Yes. People with capital, mostly.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Here in Canada the government decided a few years back that there were a couple of holidays -- Remembrance Day on November 11 is one of them, and I think perhaps Canada Day on July 1, and of course Christmas was always in that category -- that were so important they had to be observed on the actual day not on the nearest Monday. This makes sense, I guess, but I must admit I'm always very happy when one of those holidays falls on either a Monday or a Friday so we get a long weekend. Our other statutory holidays are generally held on the nearest Monday (except Good Friday which is obviously a Friday anyway).
There's no holiday drought in the fall here -- we have Labour Day in September, Thanksgiving in October and Remembrance Day in November. It's the Christmas-till-Easter stretch that gets a bit thin around here.
There are people who get their Easter Monday holiday moved to July, and attached to Canada Day (01 July). Also, in the west we've seen a Monday in Feb become a holiday with the name seeming to have become "Family Day". I've been calling it the Valentines Day holiday myself.
The nameless one is the August long weekend (first Monday in Aug), or maybe that's its name?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I don't see how three-day weekends serve the capitalist machine the OP refers to.
I love the three-day weekends we get, and they're far more relaxing than the random day off we get in the middle of the week when Independence Day, Cesar Chavez Day (a California state holiday not subject to the Monday Holiday Bill) and Veterans Day fall on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. This year Cesar Chavez Day fell on Good Friday (which I don't normally get off), so that plus getting Easter Monday off made a four-day weekend that was absolutely heaven.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Apparently, it is (or has been) customary for RC areas to have Ascension Day as a holiday. Does this also apply to sects/denoms which do not celebrate that sort of feast day? Does it apply to non-Christians?
Second, related, question: how much absolute horror would be caused by the idea of giving specifically Muslim or Hindu holidays cause in the UK? There are probably as many observant Muslims there as there are observant Christians. (Dunno about Hindus or Jedi)
How much accommodation would have to be made to allow the appropriate holidays, at the "RIGHT TIME" (per the OP) for all the flavours of religious observance? Splitting up the various holidays would be a boon in times of heavy holiday travel, and might allow some tourist operators to function better.
Why does the State interfere with religious custom/ Might be better to legislate the appropriate amount of holiday time being allowed for all varieties, with the choice available, and let the employers work out how to cover the work-time slots.
I do note that, presently, many parents remove their kids form school for trips to the Sunny South or whatever, more-or-less because "you can't tell me not to". Maybe an appropriate form of individual progress teaching, instead of lockstep industrialism, would solve that problem as well.
[ 10. May 2013, 21:52: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Apparently, it is (or has been) customary for RC areas to have Ascension Day as a holiday. Does this also apply to sects/denoms which do not celebrate that sort of feast day? Does it apply to non-Christians?
Probably the same as places where Christmas and Good Friday are public holidays I guess. Other groups don't have to go to work as well, and for people who don't care about the observance who work in essential service industries not closed on that day (train drivers, police, petrol station staff, paramedics etc) it can actually be financially beneficial as they get paid penalty rates.
quote:
How much accommodation would have to be made to allow the appropriate holidays, at the "RIGHT TIME" (per the OP) for all the flavours of religious observance? Splitting up the various holidays would be a boon in times of heavy holiday travel, and might allow some tourist operators to function better.
Why does the State interfere with religious custom/ Might be better to legislate the appropriate amount of holiday time being allowed for all varieties, with the choice available, and let the employers work out how to cover the work-time slots.
I think this is best dealt with by minimising the number of public holidays in the calendar which are related to religious festivals (in Australia it's just Christmas, Good Friday and Easter Monday, an appropriately small number considering this is a country where 60% identify with some flavour of Christianity) and letting people apply to their employer to use a day of annual leave (or flexitime, or time off in lieu of overtime pay) if they want to take time off on other working days. As you say, it might be better to legislate that everybody has a good amount of leave that they can use at whatever the RIGHT TIME is for them, whether it's for a religious occasion, a non-religious occasion or just wanting to have some time off to keep a good work-life balance.
With 20 days of paid annual leave being accrued each year by a full-time employee (in Australia at least) there's already plenty of capacity for people to use some of those days for observance of religious occasions or anything else they consider significant, such as a relative's university graduation, travelling across the country for a friend's wedding, or going to a major sporting event or concert. For many people these events would be far more significant than any religious occasions, so I see no reason that there should be any special discrimination that grants these rights to only religious adherents. Practically, people wanting days off for religious occasions will always have an unfair advantage because they know the dates years in advance and can apply for leave for those days before anybody else does, while a football fan might only know that their team is playing in a finals match less than a week in advance.
Discrimination law in Australia makes it illegal for leave requested for religious reasons to be denied if it would be granted to the same employee over the same time period for any other reason. A friend of mine working in a supermarket successfully had his union step in over his request to be off the roster over the whole of the Easter weekend for religious reasons when the store management denied that request but then granted leave on those days to another employee in an equally graded position. Thankfully all it took was a call from the union to the head office HR people who rolled their eyes at the local manager's stupidity and told her to get back in line with the rules.
quote:
I do note that, presently, many parents remove their kids form school for trips to the Sunny South or whatever, more-or-less because "you can't tell me not to". Maybe an appropriate form of individual progress teaching, instead of lockstep industrialism, would solve that problem as well.
There are ways that incorporate some level of individual progress assessment, especially by allowing to recognise that such trips can contribute to the education of a child and expecting that any holiday with more than a couple of days missed will incorporate some activities to enhance the child's education. A primary school student should be expected to hand up a daily journal kept during the travel, and once they get beyond about nine years old they can write an essay (or make a poster, or give a talk to the class) about their learning at a cultural or scientific site. Once you get into secondary school there can simply be the expectation that the student will do the required work to keep up with things, including that any test be sat in a teacher's office during the lunch break on a day prior to the trip or that assignments due after the trip will be worked on during the course of the holiday and due on the normal date with no extensions given.
[ 10. May 2013, 23:53: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I was merely pointing out that people have benefitted immensely from the capitalism driven advancements of the post Middle Ages.
Yes. People with capital, mostly.
Depends on what you mean by "mostly".
If you mean “most of the benefit went disproportionately to those with capital” – yes. In theory this is justified because they risk their capital and deserve a return for taking that risk. Sometimes, of course, the risk is nowadays so protected by convoluted stratagems that it effectively disappears but the rake-off remains - IMO that is an abuse of power (although might my opinion be different were I in possession of a large amount of capital?).
If you mean “most of the people who benefitted were those with capital” – no. Rich and poor alike have better life expectancy, more disposable income and greater opportunities for leisure, study, recreation and advancement. Disproportionately undoubtedly but no-one in Britain needs to have eight children in the hope that one or two will survive long enough to look after us in any dotage we may attain.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
You may dismiss Christianity, and religion in general, but the point is, it is, or should be, counter-cultural
If I’m right in assuming this element of your comment to be complete (my apologies if I’m wrong) then I’m surprised that you define Christianity, let alone religion in general, as a counter-cultural pressure. What if the prevailing culture were really (rather than merely superficially) Christian – would Christianity then be against itself?
I confess to ignorance - but surely the position you propound is political rather than religious?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
In an ideal world (aka heaven) yes there would be a contradiction if the church were counter-cultural. But in practice, the universal human tendency to corruption (or as Francis Spufford refers to it in this excellent book, HPtFtu (the human propensity to fuck things up) we need a counterweight.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Ascension Thursday is not just a holiday in Catholic areas of Europe.It is a traditional major holiday in such countries as Denmark,Sweden,Norway,Finland,as well as Netherlands and Switzerland which are mixed in religious allegiance or historic culture.
On the other hand such bastions of Catholicism as Italy,Spain,Poland,Slovakia and Malta have transferred the liturgical celebration to the following Sunday,with no holiday on the Thursday.
Surrounded by the state of Italy the Vatican City ,of course,celebrates Ascension on the 'proper' day.
As far as Scottish local holidays are concerned many of them stem from the fast days observed before Communion in the Presbyterian church.Others ,like the Glasgow Fair holidays ,have their origin away back in medieval
times with the grant from the king for a fair to be held around the time of St Peter and St Paul's day. The origins are often obscured by the mists of time,such as the Irvine Marymas festival in August.Most people will say it has to do with a visit by Mary Queen of Scots,but it is surely obvious that it goes back to a festival held on the 15th August,the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
A law that has never been repealed allows parents to take their children out of school for big days like Ascension Day.
When I took assembly on that day, I started with 'Why are you here? You didn't have to come to school today.'
Muslims take their kids out for Eid - if Christians did similarly, maybe we could get some our holydays back.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A law that has never been repealed allows parents to take their children out of school for big days like Ascension Day.
When I took assembly on that day, I started with 'Why are you here? You didn't have to come to school today.'
Muslims take their kids out for Eid - if Christians did similarly, maybe we could get some our holydays back.
Could one claim the same for Ash Wednesday, all the red letter saints + a personal one for one's own name day? Pity the Transfiguration and Dormitian are when schools are usually on holiday.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
A law that has never been repealed allows parents to take their children out of school for big days like Ascension Day.
When I took assembly on that day, I started with 'Why are you here? You didn't have to come to school today.'
Muslims take their kids out for Eid - if Christians did similarly, maybe we could get some our holydays back.
Could one claim the same for Ash Wednesday, all the red letter saints + a personal one for one's own name day? Pity the Transfiguration and Dormitian are when schools are usually on holiday.
Well, we used to get the day off for Ash Wednesday at my (church) school as long as we went to Holy Communion at our parish church.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In an ideal world (aka heaven) yes there would be a contradiction if the church were counter-cultural. But in practice, the universal human tendency to corruption (or as Francis Spufford refers to it in this excellent book, HPtFtu (the human propensity to fuck things up) we need a counterweight.
I give you that the world is not ideal - though, like you, I don't know what heaven would be like. I do, however, know that, in the extremely unlikely event that such an entity exists, heaven cannot be the ideal version of the planet/universe we inhabit (reasons not appropriate here but available if requested).
I'll also agree with you about the need for a counterweight - I recoil in horror from the idea that the (undemonstrable) supernatural is the best/only place to find one.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
...but France, like other countries traditionally under the yoke of the RCC...
Nice post, as usual!
I try to be good about not looking for offense, but, HughWillRidmee, I found that distinctly not a nice turn of phrase.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I confess to ignorance - but surely the position you propound is political rather than religious?
That's a false dichotomy. The bible (say, the book of Isaiah) is full of political stuff.
[ 12. May 2013, 02:06: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I try to be good about not looking for offense, but, HughWillRidmee, I found that distinctly not a nice turn of phrase.
My intention was to make a point – I did not intend to give offense
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
That's a false dichotomy. The bible (say, the book of Isaiah) is full of political stuff.
I would expect that a christian’s beliefs would inform their political views. One of the difficulties for me when considering the claims of christianity is that it (or is it the HG/HS?) seems to inform so many people in so many varying ways from far right to far left and all intermediate points. My point here though was that I felt that the political was informing the religious – and that surprised me.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
When they're left on the original days, you win some, you lose some. Considering how secularised it's become, France has a surprising number of Catholic holidays left (Ascension, All Saints, Assumption of the Virgin… but not Good Friday, oddly). I think it's fair to say this is less to do with religious sentiment and more to do with the lefties and the trades unions who would make an almighty fuss if the Powers that Be tried to take away any of precious days off.
When they fall on Tuesdays or Thursdays, it is *expected* that a lot of people will do what the French call 'le pont' (the bridge) and take the day in between to get a long weekend. This year we've hit the jackpot with a lot of them falling in convenient spots like this and one notable one - Wednesday (VE Day) and Thursday (the Ascension) last week were both public holidays so all you had to do was take your Friday off and da da! Five day weekend in exchange for a single day of annual leave ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) . AFAICT no one was in the office on Friday who didn't strictly speaking have to be. I certainly wasn't and I get the impression that the poor sods who came in on Friday were bored out of their minds because the whole of the rest of the country had headed to the beach/the country/to see the family and there was Nothing To Do™. This has its relevance for 'profit over people' I guess because the productivity of the French must have been considerably diminished last week. I think this fact is being greeted by a big Gallic shrug and cry of 'Who cares? Five day weekend baby'. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
On the other hand, if our public holidays fall on Saturday or Sunday you lose them. Last year we lost flipping loads. This year I think there's just one (July 14th / Bastille day which falls on a Sunday). The system has its pros and cons.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
Yes, it's strange Good Friday isn't a holiday, with Ascension and those others remaining on the calendar and still being called their Christian names....
Indeed, last week had that lucky five-day sequence as described by la vie en rose; and the week before had May 1, another public holiday, on Wednesday, so if you could take off both Thursday and Friday to make another "pont" or bridge with the weekend, you were in clover that week as well.
Then there were those lucky people who could take the whole darn thing, from May 1st right through until yesterday--which as one of my French friends says would not have been a "pont" but a "viaduc" !!!
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Pondering.
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