homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Crowning of Mary, Queen of May (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Crowning of Mary, Queen of May
Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849

 - Posted      Profile for Jon in the Nati   Email Jon in the Nati   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A happy and blessed Mothers' Day to all you mothers out there. Yes, I know that Mothers' Day is not celebrated in the UK... Mothering Sunday... Pond differences, etc., etc.

Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning? I would imagine most American Catholics did, but I am particularly interested in such practices among Anglicans, wherever they may be.

Tell us about it.

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278

 - Posted      Profile for Oblatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning? I would imagine most American Catholics did, but I am particularly interested in such practices among Anglicans, wherever they may be.

Tell us about it.

We did it last Sunday. I think the crown is put on before the first Mass, as it didn't happen during Mass, unless I missed it. We had a solemn procession with the hymn "Sing we of the blessed Mother" (tune: Rustington) and a station at the BVM shrine. Regina Caeli by Soriano; Missa Assumpta est Maria by Palestrina; Ave Maria by Refice.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

Shipmate
# 1158

 - Posted      Profile for The Silent Acolyte     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our Lady of Hardwork is Anglocatholic right down to its little cotton socks, yet vesting or crowning any of our Marian effigies (we have four) has never been our ritual radar. We will, of course, have our annual May Flounce Around the Church while singing Ye who own the faith of Jesus and the Lourdes Rant.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In this month's Walsingham Review the Administrator describes how he crowns the statue of our Lady after Vespers on Easter Day in a ceremony known as Maria Consolata.

In the past I say such an event advertised at Holy Cross Cromer Street, but I don't think they do it now.

Otherwise I've never heard of solemn coronations.

May Devotions seem a thing of the past. Pity.

What we really need is a mass and devotion to Mary the Priest (as implied in Tina Beattie's God's Mother, Eve's Advocate.). I hope it would bring certain areas of Anglicanism to realise the potential of Marian devotion.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh my, venbede! Radical thoughts, indeed...... [Snigger]

Maria Consolata (on Easter Day) seems to crop up here and there in Anglo-Catholic churches in the UK, but, as the OPer says, Mother's Day in the UK is a different animal.

Our place has just had its annual pilgrimage to Walsingham, and, although it's officially kept on 31st May, we will be observing the Visitation of Our Lady to Elizabeth at the Cell of OLW Mass on 1st June. Local custom, and all that.

BTW, we have a nice new set of High Mass vestments in a glorious azure blue, just right for Feasts and Solemnities of Our Lady - and, following Sarum, AIUI, other Holy Women!

Ian J.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My personal May Devotion this year, is getting to know better Gerard Manley Hopkins' poem, The May Magnificat.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wow! Thanks for that link, venbede - not a work I was familiar with, but duly noted for future use!

Ian J.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Certainly not.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[Confused] WTF?

Meaning what, precisely?

Ian J.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[Confused] WTF?

Meaning what, precisely?

Ian J.

Being asked:
"Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning?"

I respond:
"Certainly not."

Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I "did" Hopkins for A level. I didn't really appreciate him. I see that in the front of my copy of his poems I wrote "Confusion to the Jesuits. Success to the House of Hanover. Honour to the Church of England".

I'm sure indifferently would have approved, but since then I moved considerably to the left politically and up the candle religiously.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[Confused] WTF?

Meaning what, precisely?

Ian J.

Being asked:
"Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning?"

I respond:
"Certainly not."

Guessing you won't be viewing Mary as priest, then? [Two face]

(Many thanks for those resources, venbede!)

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Or St. Mary Magdalene as 'The Apostle to the Apostles'? Another excuse to break out the azure blue vestments..... [Razz]

Ian J.

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sarum rite is not my thing, but I must confess to liking blue vestments....

To keep this on topic, to my knowledge my church does not crown images of Our Lady which surprises me - there are a few things of a Marian nature which we don't do which surprises me, like the Angelus. Perhaps I should have a word with my priest while we're at Walsingham (in June for us)! Take advantage of the Marian atmosphere [Big Grin]

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[Confused] WTF?

Meaning what, precisely?

Ian J.

Being asked:
"Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning?"

I respond:
"Certainly not."

Guessing you won't be viewing Mary as priest, then? [Two face]

(Many thanks for those resources, venbede!)

There are a lot around who don't see Mary as queen of anything. Some would go so far as to say that she's the queen of deception.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108

 - Posted      Profile for Bostonman   Email Bostonman   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
[Confused] WTF?

Meaning what, precisely?

Ian J.

Being asked:
"Now then, who among us crowned an image of Our Lady this morning?"

I respond:
"Certainly not."

Guessing you won't be viewing Mary as priest, then? [Two face]

(Many thanks for those resources, venbede!)

There are a lot around who don't see Mary as queen of anything. Some would go so far as to say that she's the queen of deception.
What, like, she stole the baby Jesus off somebody else?
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
[QUOTE]What, like, she stole the baby Jesus off somebody else?

Noooo - elevating her in any kind of way deflects you from worshipping God. For some, mary is no more worshipped than any woman (or person come to that).

[ 14. May 2013, 13:26: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The logical conclusion of that is to say that focussing on anything other than the (purely spiritual???) nature of God distracts us from worshipping God. Since St Paul exhorted us to 'pray at all times' that would make it rather difficult for us to give attention to another human being or even the food we eat or the job we do...

God is in all things and in all people, and surely most evidently so in her who was chosen to bring God to birth in our human flesh.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I agree with the declaration of the Seventh Council with respect to Mary. Culturally speaking, this does not entail effeminate and superstitious practices which have grown up in a certain kind of religion, long consigned to the dustbin of history in this country by Elizabeth I.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm trying to be careful and address the argument rather than the person. So I'm not accusing you of being bonkers, Indifferently. But it's a bonkers argument to call a Church with probably as many active worshippers in this country as the Church of England, the 'dustbin of history' . Discourteous too.

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
[QUOTE]What, like, she stole the baby Jesus off somebody else?

Noooo - elevating her in any kind of way deflects you from worshipping God. For some, mary is no more worshipped than any woman (or person come to that).
No - I heard the conservative evangelical former bishop of Norwich, Maurice Wood, explain, in a sermon at Walsingham, that Mary points to Jesus - - like when she said, ;'Do whatever he tells you.'

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
[QUOTE]What, like, she stole the baby Jesus off somebody else?

Noooo - elevating her in any kind of way deflects you from worshipping God. For some, mary is no more worshipped than any woman (or person come to that).
No - I heard the conservative evangelical former bishop of Norwich, Maurice Wood, explain, in a sermon at Walsingham, that Mary points to Jesus - - like when she said, ;'Do whatever he tells you.'
He didn't tell us to worship her.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
God is in all things and in all people, and surely most evidently so in her who was chosen to bring God to birth in our human flesh.

On that basis we could pray to or worship a tree - surely you don't mean it quite as you said.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Who's saying anything about 'worshipping' Mary? Or 'praying' to her, except in the sense of asking her to pray for us (as we do many people)?

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Who's saying anything about 'worshipping' Mary? Or 'praying' to her, except in the sense of asking her to pray for us (as we do many people)?

Crowning someone implies elevation, implies worship.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's God who raised up Mary (as per the Magnificat), not those of us who honour her. The woman who literally laboured with God and nourished Him should be honoured - we'll all be crowned as heirs of God so the crown isn't anything more than what the rest of the Kingdom will have.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Who's saying anything about 'worshipping' Mary? Or 'praying' to her, except in the sense of asking her to pray for us (as we do many people)?

Crowning someone implies elevation, implies worship.
Then was Samuel sinning when he anointed King David?

Oh and Mary was much more moral than David could ever be.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
anne
Shipmate
# 73

 - Posted      Profile for anne   Email anne   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Who's saying anything about 'worshipping' Mary? Or 'praying' to her, except in the sense of asking her to pray for us (as we do many people)?

Crowning someone implies elevation, implies worship.
I don't worship Queen Elizabeth II, and I don't know of anyone who does, and she was certainly crowned - anointed too if it comes to that. Reverence isn't the same as worship, even when it manifests in ways that not everyone might be comfortable with, such as dressing up statues or crowning them. And if any woman in history merits a little reverence, surely it's Mary.

anne

less seriously, I am battling to overcome a mental image of Mary reacting to being crowned like Amy Farrah Fowler does when Sheldon gives her jewellery - "I'm a princess and this is my tiara." Sorry.

--------------------
‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

 - Posted      Profile for Olaf     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The word 'worship' has seen many nuances over the years.

In the BCP, does it not say "With this ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship"?

And from the coronation, "I, Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, do become your liege man of life and limb, and of earthly worship; and faith and truth will I bear unto you, to live and die, against all manner of folks. So help me God."

If I recall correctly, this was taken by other members of the royal family, if not at the coronation then at other times, such as the investiture of the Prince of Wales when he reached the age of 21.

I could see how somebody choosing to worship in an earlier language style could use the word 'worship' when referring to Mary, in the same sense that worship was used for wedding ceremonies and royal functions. I don't think it would necessarily need to call into question where their greatest loyalty in worship lie.

Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849

 - Posted      Profile for Jon in the Nati   Email Jon in the Nati   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Quite so, Olaf, and all of that is not even to mention the traditional latria v. dulia discussion, which has been had many times before.

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm trying to be careful and address the argument rather than the person. So I'm not accusing you of being bonkers, Indifferently. But it's a bonkers argument to call a Church with probably as many active worshippers in this country as the Church of England, the 'dustbin of history' . Discourteous too.

I'm not talking about Roman Catholicism as it exists today. I'm talking about the medievalist religion of that time, which did incorporate the things I mentioned. I know the Roman Catholic Church has never taught worship of the Virgin Mary (though 'Glories of Mary' comes disturbingly close) but the superstitious popular religion of 16th century England before the Reformation certainly tolerated and did little to discourage such practises.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As for effeminacy, why does the church need to be masculine all the time? Honouring Mary will involve some feminine things.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for effeminacy, why does the church need to be masculine all the time? Honouring Mary will involve some feminine things.

The Church herself is feminine in gender of course, next to her Spouse Who is masculine.

But I used the term 'effeminate' deliberately. That sort of thing might work in some cultures, but in the austere religious climate of these islands, it comes off as unnatrual and just a bit foreign.

Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for effeminacy, why does the church need to be masculine all the time? Honouring Mary will involve some feminine things.

The Church herself is feminine in gender of course, next to her Spouse Who is masculine.

But I used the term 'effeminate' deliberately. That sort of thing might work in some cultures, but in the austere religious climate of these islands, it comes off as unnatrual and just a bit foreign.

I can understand some people being personally uncomfortable with it, if they're a particular kind of introvert, but that doesn't make it theologically wrong. And I wouldn't say that British religion is naturally austere [Confused] Perhaps introverted, but even British Puritanism was quite different to that from mainland Europe. Certainly we are naturally MORE sentimental.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849

 - Posted      Profile for Jon in the Nati   Email Jon in the Nati   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
But I used the term 'effeminate' deliberately. That sort of thing might work in some cultures, but in the austere religious climate of these islands, it comes off as unnatrual and just a bit foreign.
Then be specific, if you will. What specific Marian devotions or beliefs, of these or former times, would you consider to be unduly effeminate? Let us ignore, for the moment, their alleged doctrinal wrongness.

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517

 - Posted      Profile for Indifferently     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
But I used the term 'effeminate' deliberately. That sort of thing might work in some cultures, but in the austere religious climate of these islands, it comes off as unnatrual and just a bit foreign.
Then be specific, if you will. What specific Marian devotions or beliefs, of these or former times, would you consider to be unduly effeminate? Let us ignore, for the moment, their alleged doctrinal wrongness.
It's not the beliefs I would say were "effeminate" (for doctrine is doctrine, and I've no power over it) but cute little practices like this I can't see a robust English Protestant doing. I think a tide of effeminacy did unfortunately accompany the Catholic Revival in England, and it needn't have happened, but there we go. It's the ceremonial I object to, more than anything.

If Mary is Queen of Heaven - so be it, but since I believe that Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation, it's not really something I'm terribly interested in. It's more these cute ceremonial practices. Certain church adornments, practices, clerical dress and other things just do not look like English Religion to me.

Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
But I used the term 'effeminate' deliberately. That sort of thing might work in some cultures, but in the austere religious climate of these islands, it comes off as unnatrual and just a bit foreign.
Then be specific, if you will. What specific Marian devotions or beliefs, of these or former times, would you consider to be unduly effeminate? Let us ignore, for the moment, their alleged doctrinal wrongness.
It's not the beliefs I would say were "effeminate" (for doctrine is doctrine, and I've no power over it) but cute little practices like this I can't see a robust English Protestant doing. I think a tide of effeminacy did unfortunately accompany the Catholic Revival in England, and it needn't have happened, but there we go. It's the ceremonial I object to, more than anything.

If Mary is Queen of Heaven - so be it, but since I believe that Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation, it's not really something I'm terribly interested in. It's more these cute ceremonial practices. Certain church adornments, practices, clerical dress and other things just do not look like English Religion to me.

A) Anglicanism is not purely Protestant and B) the ceremonial practices you mention were part and parcel of English religion prior to the Reformation. Clearly English people saw no problem with it. Your own preferences do not represent the whole of 'Englishness', whatever that looks like.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849

 - Posted      Profile for Jon in the Nati   Email Jon in the Nati   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indifferently, I cannot help but think that you may be influenced by the Victorian/post-Victorian concept of Muscular Christianity.

You keep saying that such practices as we have described are not "English," or are otherwise unmanly. Not being English, I do not follow you. Certainly, one can make the case that certain "Romish" practices are by definition un-protestant, but I wonder if you can say more about this particular strand of English protestantism to which these effeminate practices are particularly abhorrent for reasons other than simple theology?

--------------------
Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.

Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged
PD
Shipmate
# 12436

 - Posted      Profile for PD   Author's homepage   Email PD   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Although I am somewhat on the Catholic wing of Anglicanism, I tend to go 'shy' when it comes to May Crownings, etc.. Part of it is the fact that my home parish environment derived from Tractarianism not Ritualism. The rest is down to the fact that it is difficult enough to get my lot to do what is actually in the BCP without adding anything different.

PD

--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com

Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Exclamation Mark –

Many here find the doctrine of penal substitionary atonement seriously misleading, and doubtless for some as deceptive and offensive as you find Marian devotion.

I would suggest there is an analogy.

Taken literally or out of context, PSA has many difficulties (eg God is a sadist) nevertheless it vividly makes plain the seriousness and mystery of the Atonement.

Taken out of context there have certainly been distortions in Marian devotion (eg Mary is a goddess), nevertheless it vividly makes plain the seriousness mystery of the Incarnation.

The difference in my experience is that I have come to find prayer with Mary and about her compelling and saving, whereas I find PSA unconvincing.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The difference in my experience is that I have come to find prayer with Mary and about her compelling and saving, whereas I find PSA unconvincing.

I don't think I mentioned PSA - but to equate honouring Mary with any theory of the atonement is a bigger straw man than you'll find in a barn full of the stuff.

I accept you find find prayer compelling but I cannot accept it as saving. Deception? Deluded? Who know? Wrong certainly IMHO but YMOV.

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Taken literally or out of context, PSA has many difficulties (eg God is a sadist) nevertheless it vividly makes plain the seriousness and mystery of the Atonement.

Taken out of context there have certainly been distortions in Marian devotion (eg Mary is a goddess), nevertheless it vividly makes plain the seriousness mystery of the Incarnation.

Yes we both accept that, taken out of context, PSA and "veneration" of Mary can be misunderstood.

I wouldn't recognise PSA from some of the comments applied against it in popular challenges on here - I wouldn't see it as having a so called "despotic" God behind it, for example.

OTOH I see the issue of "out of context" coming from quite another direction from where Mary is concerned. I wouldn't see Mary as having any salvific value, whatever is said and however often it's repeated. That's the out of context moment for me - that you can pray to her and expect her to be able to do soemthing plus the assumption that she's "Queen of heaven." No evidence for that at all.

Significant elements of Christendom and the 39 Articles can't be wrong.

[ 15. May 2013, 10:47: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for effeminacy, why does the church need to be masculine all the time? Honouring Mary will involve some feminine things.

In the New Testament the imagery for the Church is inevitably feminine:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21.2

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. Revelation 12.1


That the author intended the woman crowned with the stars to mean Mary as well as the Church is possible, but it is certainly how the passage has been taken by many Christians.

(Tongue ever so slightly in cheek.) So crowning a statue of Mary can be seen as a scripturally based prophetic action,

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
As for effeminacy, why does the church need to be masculine all the time? Honouring Mary will involve some feminine things.

In the New Testament the imagery for the Church is inevitably feminine:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21.2

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. Revelation 12.1


That the author intended the woman crowned with the stars to mean Mary as well as the Church is possible, but it is certainly how the passage has been taken by many Christians.

(Tongue ever so slightly in cheek.) So crowning a statue of Mary can be seen as a scripturally based prophetic action,

I find it bizarre that many of the churches prepared to "crown" mary as some kind of mediator in heaven are the ones least likely to have a female "mediator" here on earth: ie a female priest.

[ 15. May 2013, 10:51: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Tina Beattie and I would agree with you.

However we are not talking about Queen of the United Kingdom here, we are talking about Queen of the May. In the past there must have been thousands of girls crowned Queen of the May at village fetes, probably on the basis that they sold most raffle tickets in aid of the Village Hall restoration fund.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Tina Beattie and I would agree with you.

Who's Tina Beattie?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I mentioned her upthread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tina_Beattie

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The quote from Tina Beattie I've been wanting to share here is:

"The greatest benefit of feminist insights lies in their ability to reveal Catholic theology not as unjust but as theologically impoverished .... I am a native inhabitant of the territory I seek to liberate because I am a Catholic woman who would rather live creatively within occupied territory than seek refuge in what might be a more comfortable environment elsewhere."

Would to goodness the Anglican Affirming Catholicism understood that.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
One priest once preached to me, quite simply:

"Mary is the Church."

The ultimate goal of the Church is theosis, becoming partakers of the divine nature. If the Church is to be crowned in the future, then Mary's crowning is a prophetic anticipation.

Even the Crowning of Mary directs us to God. It is God who crowns Mary, not herself alone. It is he who is the ultimate source of her salvation and transformation.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:


One priest once preached to me, quite simply:

"Mary is the Church."

The ultimate goal of the Church is theosis, becoming partakers of the divine nature. If the Church is to be crowned in the future, then Mary's crowning is a prophetic anticipation.

Even the Crowning of Mary directs us to God. It is God who crowns Mary, not herself alone. It is he who is the ultimate source of her salvation and transformation.

1. In what way is Mary crowned?

2. If it os God who crowns Mary - why the veneration towarsd the crowned not the crowner?

Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools