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Source: (consider it) Thread: Portuguese liturgy
sonata3
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# 13653

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The following link gives some interesting commentary on the Catholic Church's liturgy in Portuguese, and the Pope's liturgies in Brazil, and raises a couple of questions:

http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2013/07/24/the-lord-be-with-you-he-is-here-in-our-midst-papal-liturgy-in-brazil/

(1) How will Pope Francis be dealing down the road with the "Reform of the Reform," which I gather Benedict XVI supported - greater use of Latin, traditional vestments, unlimited freedom to use the Tridentine rite. Not much of that in evidence here.

(2) Why is the Portuguese Novus Ordo (which seems to depart from the Latin Novus Ordo even more than the English which was recently jettisoned, with its acclamations in the Eucharistic Prayer; certainly the response to "The Peace of the Lord..." is not "And with your Spirit") still allowed, after all the angst over the the new English-language Missal?

(3) And, as a PS - is the Portuguese "Eucharistic Prayer V" still permitted?

I am a Lutheran married to a Roman Catholic, who most often worships with my spouse in a Latin-rite English liturgy; but after looking through the Braziliam liturgies, I was just a bit curious.

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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim

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Forthview
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# 12376

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A good number of vernacular forms of the Roman rite of Mass depart quite often from a literal translation of the Latin.

Most Catholics do not get too fussed about it.

There is no reason for pope Francis to feel that he must follow in every detail what was important in liturgical style to pope Benedict.

We see in every public Mass celebrated by popeFrancis a return to the idea of 'noble simplicity' which was one of the watchwords of Vatican 2.Different people can interpret 'noble simplicity' in different ways but pope Francis usually wears simple white vestments at the white periods in the liturgy whereas Benedict might have preferred the 'noble simplicity' of heavy gold vestments expressing the majesty of God.

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seasick

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My perception as an outsider is that from Benedict the emphasis was on the "noble" whereas for Francis it's on the "simplicity". In my view, there's a proper balance to be struck - certainly as Methodists we could do to learn a lot more about noble liturgy.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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CL
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# 16145

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There are several vernacular translation of the NO that are as bad or worse than the old ICEL translation. The reason they still are in use is simply that Rome hasn't gotten around to fixing them yet. The English liturgy was the big one that needed to be fixed first given the size and material importance of the US church. Winning the liturgical battle there would make it far easier to do so elsewhere.
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venbede
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I internally tut tut when Anglican priests start the dialogue "The Lord is here - R His Spirit is with us" rather than "The Lord be with you - R And also with you." I tut tut because A it's an Anglican innovation B it's not a mutual greeting and C it is gender specific, not that I'm that fussed.

I notice the Brazilian mass has "The Lord be with you. He is here in our midst" isn't much better on those counts.

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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LeRoc

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(I don't know very much about Catholic Mass, but I speak Portuguese and I live in Brazil. Following this topic with interest.)

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Forthview
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There is also no absolute need for the pope to be celebrating 'Tridentine style' Masses,nor indeed to be using a lot of Latin.

I watch quite often (on TV) his weekly Angelus talk and blessing.His message has always been only in Italian.He did not append to his talk a few words in other languages as his two immediate predecessors did.I always listened carefully as I wished to hear him speak Spanish.
Yesterday at one of the JMJ addresses was the first time I heard him speak Spanish as well as Portuguese for the actual liturgy.
His Italian comes very naturally with some Spanish sounds of course.In his Latin then Spanish pronunciation of Latin often comes to the fore instead of Italian pronunciation of Latin.
I think that pope Francis is very aware of his Catholic credentials and doesn't need to boost them by following too many traditional customs in the liturgy

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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I echo seasick's sentiments....

On a tangent, is Argentina a stop on this trip? I don't think the pope has been there yet in his papacy, and of course his first visit is An Event.

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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.

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Forthview
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Pope Francis is returning to Rome this evening at the conclusion of the JMJs.He announced at the end that the next World Youth day will be in Cracow.
Although he is not holding weekly general audiences during August,he is not going to spend the summer at Castel Gandolfo ( the papal extraterritorial summer villa) but is rather continuing to stay in his quarters in Rome.
I did however hear that he will go to Castel Gandolfo on a Sunday to recite the Angelus with the faithful,as otherwise the inhabitants of the town of Castel Gandolfo would not be welcoming as many tourists to their town as they usually do during the papal summer holiday period.

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sonata3
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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
There are several vernacular translation of the NO that are as bad or worse than the old ICEL translation. The reason they still are in use is simply that Rome hasn't gotten around to fixing them yet. The English liturgy was the big one that needed to be fixed first given the size and material importance of the US church. Winning the liturgical battle there would make it far easier to do so elsewhere.

Is it possible that Rome will now simply not get around to "fixing them"?

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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The English liturgy was the big one that needed to be fixed first given the size and material importance of the US church. Winning the liturgical battle there would make it far easier to do so elsewhere.

Wasn't it more of an ideological battle (from Ben XVI's POV) against the dangerous liberals of the USA (and to some extent the UK)?

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Gottschalk
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@Forthview

" There is also no absolute need for the pope to be celebrating 'Tridentine style' Masses,nor indeed to be using a lot of Latin."

Isn't he the Bishop of Rome? Didn't Council convened by one of his predecessor affirm the place of latin and gregorian in the liturgy? Did not his immediate predecessor affirm the two forms of the rite of his see? Doesn't he use the title of Bishop of Rome more frequently than the others?

Well, of course, Roman Catholics may be excused from having to look for any consistency in the official acts of their supreme hierarchs.

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Gottschalk
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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I internally tut tut when Anglican priests start the dialogue "The Lord is here - R His Spirit is with us" rather than "The Lord be with you - R And also with you." I tut tut because A it's an Anglican innovation B it's not a mutual greeting and C it is gender specific, not that I'm that fussed.

I notice the Brazilian mass has "The Lord be with you. He is here in our midst" isn't much better on those counts.

My understanding in broad terms is that this liturgical conversation grew out of the early Christians' (and previously Jews') gatherings, and was a formalised reassurance of the invisible security implicit in God's presence with them, overcoming the fears of persecution and even at worst execution. In Veggie Tale terms it was "God is Bigger than The Bogeyman" (and also with you).

The exact format then is somewhat unimportant (though I'm not sure the Veggie Tale form has taken off in mainstream circles). Since the lectionary yesterday (Sunday, Oz time) was the Lukan Lord's Prayer it's worth reinforcing the knowledge that the promise of God's presence was not "do not let poos happen" but "do not let the poos that happen be bigger than our faith." It is that plea that is implicit in the greeting and response and I doubt that the format is hyper critical.

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Forthview
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Gottschalk I am not aware that Latin is nowadays the everyday language of the people of Rome.Pope Francis has indeed wished to portray himself first and foremost as Bishop of Rome.It doesn't mean that he is obliged to use Latin in the liturgy because of that.
Yes,indeed Catholics should value the use of Latin -personally I like to hear Latin in the liturgy and I go occasionally to the Tridentine rite of Mass.Certainly it should not be excluded from the liturgy but it doesn't need to be overemphasised.

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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
There are several vernacular translation of the NO that are as bad or worse than the old ICEL translation. The reason they still are in use is simply that Rome hasn't gotten around to fixing them yet. The English liturgy was the big one that needed to be fixed first given the size and material importance of the US church. Winning the liturgical battle there would make it far easier to do so elsewhere.

Is it possible that Rome will now simply not get around to "fixing them"?
No.
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CL
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# 16145

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The English liturgy was the big one that needed to be fixed first given the size and material importance of the US church. Winning the liturgical battle there would make it far easier to do so elsewhere.

Wasn't it more of an ideological battle (from Ben XVI's POV) against the dangerous liberals of the USA (and to some extent the UK)?
Lex orandi, lex credendi...

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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venbede
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# 16669

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I internally tut tut when Anglican priests start the dialogue "The Lord is here - R His Spirit is with us" rather than "The Lord be with you - R And also with you." I tut tut because A it's an Anglican innovation B it's not a mutual greeting and C it is gender specific, not that I'm that fussed.

I notice the Brazilian mass has "The Lord be with you. He is here in our midst" isn't much better on those counts.

It is that plea that is implicit in the greeting and response and I doubt that the format is hyper critical.
That's a nice thought, but for me the important thing about the greeting is that the priest acknowledges the people and the people acknowledge the priest and the assembly is convened by their mutual greeting.

"His spirit is with us" and "He is here in our midst" don't do that.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Wasn't it more of an ideological battle (from Ben XVI's POV) against the dangerous liberals of the USA (and to some extent the UK)?

This is the meta-narrative which seems to be out there, but which is very far wide of the mark. It paints Pope Benedict as some sort of ideological crusader and fits neatly with the Ship of Fools depiction of him as a dalek muttering "excommunicate! excommunicate" (It was there in the magazine section - I can't find it now). But it is very wide of the mark.

The English translation of the liturgy is a long and convoluted story and predates Pope Benedict's period by many years. He just happened to be Pope when the task was completed. In all the stories of the ICEL battles, you never hear Ratzinger's name mentioned as having intervened. The new ICEL and Vox Clara were constituted in 2003.

I love it when people assert that "Rome" is engaged in some plot or manouevre to "sort out" this or that. That can mean anything you like, from a genuine dicasterial announcement to someone letting off steam at the Cafe San Pietro over an espresso. In terms of Liturgy, each language group is treated differently. Quite honestly, it is the internal dynamics and politics of those language groups which are often the driving force. We have a peculiarly anglophone perspective on things.

However, it is true that the English translation had a particular importance not attached to other languages. One reason is that there was often a shortcut taken from translating from latin into the vernacular and instead translating from the English. Thus many of the English mistakes were replicated in other translations.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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