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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eucharistic Vestments (Church of England)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
I would be interested to know when the use of Eucharistic Vestments became the norm (or at least acceptable) outside the Anglo-Catholic wing of the CofE.
I had always assumed (but on a hunch rather than any evidence) that it became common from the 1960s. I was, therefore, surprised to discover that my local parish church in North London that had a solid 11am Matins right up to the late 1980s (Parish Communion was not introduced until 1992) began using vestments in the early 1940s.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Well, according to +Colin Buchanan, it 'spread widely'. Not having read the book, nor knowing much about the "rest of the Church of England" in that period, I can only guess but I would assume that the fact that the bill was passed permitting such means that it had become mainstream a good decade or so beforehand.
Thurible
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ken
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# 2460
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Posted
In my experience most, but by no means all, of the "open" and "charismatic" evangelical Anglicans went over to some kind of eucharistic vestments between about 1990 and 2010. Many conservative evangelicals do not use them - some prefering to wear normal clothes, others sticking with cassock and surplice.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Around my way most parishes were Central or sunn side of Central. Quite a few of the latter had adopted the chasuble between the Wars. Very often this took the form of a white linen chasuble in smaller parishes, as in poor light at the other end of the chancel it would not look too much different to a long surplice. Full colour vestments tended to be introduced in town parishes where money was less of an object. It should be understood that throughout this period, the usual service pattern was
8am HC
10.30am MP
11.45am HC (1st & festivals only)
6.30am EP
Otherwise, a lot of parishes were still surplice and stole in the 1970s and 80s, and finally bought ugly polyester chasubles c.1990.
The exception to the rule were the few Low/Evangelical parishes which remained surplice and tippet. Their service schedule was a bit different too. They would have 10.30am MP and 6.30p EP as usual, but Communion would be a 'Stay Behind' starting at "Ye that do truly and earnestly..." and the Evangelicals had both morning and evening communions like the Methodists. They would also have an 8am HC service once a month. The Low Church folks - very rare in Lincoln Diocese - would have 8am or 11.45am HC once a month.
Generally speaking the Evangelicals have tended to either move into the centre on vestments or drop them altogether. I know of shacks that used to be solidly surplice and tippet that will now use alb and stole for Communion. The MOTR element tend to wear Euchies where available instead of the old surplice and stole, which change seemed to occur in the 80s.
PD
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Around my way most parishes were Central or sunn side of Central. Quite a few of the latter had adopted the chasuble between the Wars. Very often this took the form of a white linen chasuble in smaller parishes, as in poor light at the other end of the chancel it would not look too much different to a long surplice. Full colour vestments tended to be introduced in town parishes where money was less of an object. It should be understood that throughout this period, the usual service pattern was
8am HC
10.30am MP
11.45am HC (1st & festivals only)
6.30am EP
Otherwise, a lot of parishes were still surplice and stole in the 1970s and 80s, and finally bought ugly polyester chasubles c.1990.
PD
That is interesting - the service pattern at my Parish pre-1980 was
8am HC
11am Matins
12.15 HC
6pm Evensong (which from 1962 onwards was substituted once a month for a Sung HC).
It confirms what I thought that their move to chasubles in the 1940s was ununsual.
[ 28. June 2013, 18:43: Message edited by: Liturgylover ]
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
The village church where I was confirmed was solidly 11.00 Mattins (though throughout the 19th century it seemed to have had a strong Tractarian influence). The Vicar who arrived in the late 1940s introduced vestments at the 8am Communion. In protestant north-west Yorkshire that was not the norm, but not uncommon either. I can imagine in other parts of the country vestments would be well established and accepted long before that.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
That is interesting - the service pattern at my Parish pre-1980 was
8am HC
11am Matins
12.15 HC
6pm Evensong (which from 1962 onwards was substituted once a month for a Sung HC).
It confirms what I thought that their move to chasubles in the 1940s was ununsual.
You probably had an incumbant who leaned a little bit high and managed to convince the Central Churchmanship PTBs that Eucharistic vestments are not the mark of the beast. My home parish went through that process about 30 years earlier than yours. Many others did it 20-30 years later.
However, if you are in an urban area, full Mass vestments would have become acceptable earlier in a Central Churchmanship parish just simply because town congregations are less conservative than rural ones. I remember there being slight resistence to Mass vestments in some MOTR rural parishes in the 1980s in the form of the 'The vicar's dress p like a Christmas tree again!' However, a chasuble would be acceptable at Easter and Christmas, and then you could gently sneak it in from there.
Personally I can go either way on Mass vestments. I am of the school where I would not introduce them if they were not already used. Much of the time I would prefer surplice and stole.
PD
[ 28. June 2013, 19:02: Message edited by: PD ]
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I know this is tangential, but this thread does make me wonder when evening prayer started dying out. It seems due for a comeback, since it's by no means a given that people have Sunday morning off any more.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I don't think Evensong will make a general come-back, since evening Eucharists are an option, and indeed quite a few Anglican churches offer a Sunday evening Mass, and indeed an increasing number are offering a Saturday evening Vigil Mass, as has now been done in the RCC for years. Evensong will continue as a venerable but limited Anglican tradition, these days favoured mostly by the artier and more aesthetically inclined sort of Anglicans who will go to a place offering it that has high choral standards.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know this is tangential, but this thread does make me wonder when evening prayer started dying out. It seems due for a comeback, since it's by no means a given that people have Sunday morning off any more.
I was looking at some service patterns in a journal and it seemed that in 1969 almost every church had a 6 or 6.30 evensong, but looking at the same group in 1972 only half of then did, and then by 1975 only a handful were offering it.
Perhaps there is some truth to the urban myth that The Forsyte Saga helped kill it off, but it seems that this period coincided with the fastest decline in electoral rolls and sunday attendance.
Certainly there are more churches that offer it now near me - many of them once a month and some sung rather than choral.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think Evensong will make a general come-back, since evening Eucharists are an option, and indeed quite a few Anglican churches offer a Sunday evening Mass, and indeed an increasing number are offering a Saturday evening Vigil Mass, as has now been done in the RCC for years. Evensong will continue as a venerable but limited Anglican tradition, these days favoured mostly by the artier and more aesthetically inclined sort of Anglicans who will go to a place offering it that has high choral standards.
As I said a above, I have noticed a few more parishes in London offering it but often once a month with a variety of services (Taize, healing service, devotions, Iona) on the other Sundays. But rarey have I seen a congregation above 50 or so at these evening services.
For the RC Churches it seems the Sunday evening slot is popular with a young crowd who prefer mass with a twist. A few weeks ago I was walking past Our Lady of Victories in Kensington when I heard what sounded like rock music coming from the church. Nervously peeping in, the church was completely packed (in fact people standing at the back) with swaying rock-style music and words projected on the wall.
Though I don't normally like this type of music in worship, there was a moving couterpoint between the formality of the ceremonial the incense and the vestments and the informality of the music. They have obviously got something right: last time I went to St Mary Abbott for Evensong there were only about 20 in the congregation - this Catholic Church could boast at least 200 times that number.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know this is tangential, but this thread does make me wonder when evening prayer started dying out.
Ed Sullivan and the NFL typically get the blame.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Copy/pasted from the kids and adult church thread:
I don't know about Evensong (yes I love it, but I've always been weird) but my former con-evo church's informal evening service was a big hit with teenagers and twentysomethings, and parents were happy to let teenagers lie in of a morning because they'd be going to the evening service later on (and this being con-evo circles, the lack of Eucharist didn't bother anyone).
I haven't been for some years now but it's very popular still. Although it is an Anglican church, the service is not like Evensong in any way.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
In the USA, evening services fell on hard times in the 1920s with the advent of cheap (relatively) motor cars, and the cult of 'the Sunday drive.' However, Sunday evening services often lasted into the 1940s and 50s, though the attendance was sparse.
My home parish in England still has an evening service, and to the probable irritation of the worship committee, it is the more traditional offerings that get the decent attendance. It is around 40 for BCP Evensong, and the monthly evening HC, but only about 25 for 'Sunday Nite Lite' or whatever they are calling their Praise Band service these days.
I think here what I would offer on a Sunday evening would depend on whether r not the Organist was going to be available. If he was it would be EP or an EP-Frankenmass. Without music a said Eucharist makes the most sense.
PD
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
My parish has an evensong about once a month that attracts around 100 people or so, though between me and the ship, it does seem to blur the line between worship service and concert.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My parish has an evensong about once a month that attracts around 100 people or so, though between me and the ship, it does seem to blur the line between worship service and concert.
I agree which is why I sometimes prefer it sung rather than choral, when it's possible to chant the Office.
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
We have 3 Evensongs a month (sung, not choral).
A couple of times a year we scrape together enough of a choir to have an anthem and choral responses. There's a very particular congregation who come to Evensong. They are loyal and determined.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My parish has an evensong about once a month that attracts around 100 people or so, though between me and the ship, it does seem to blur the line between worship service and concert.
It does seem often the case that the churches with regular Evensong are either cathedrals (or greater churches/college chapels) with choral HR to showcase, or Anglo-Catholic parishes who combine it with Benediction (or "Salutation").
In Toronto, we do have the Church of the Redeemer, which has a sung Evensong according to the BAS most Sunday nights. (It does yield one or two weeks a month for another service, usually Taizé or their Rock Eucharist series - which can blur the lines of concert and worship in rather a different way but is still recognizably a parish communion).
I did attend a parish whose semi-monthly Jazz Vespers numbers dwarfed the morning headcount by a depressing factor.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Sorry, I just remembered this originally had something to do with vestments - when I have time I might spin this off into its own thing.
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Heh, my fault. Back to the OP, I don't know when vestments in particular came to my parish in Indiana, but in the 1890's the parish went through a little schism because of a popish rector. The faithful fled to the hills and founded another Episcopal Church. They got over it, though, and the two parishes merged again a few years later in their original building.
The second parish did, while they were at it, build one of the handsomest churches in the city, which is now a Lutheran church.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
I got a kick out of this line in a story about the parish of the Bruce Peninsula, which was where my paternal grandparents lived and is an Anglican-Lutheran benefice:
quote:
“One Sunday, I wore a chasuble in an Anglican service, and the congregation asked, ‘Is that a Lutheran thing?’”
Reminds me of a similar story I read in the collection of essays that came out with the Waterloo Agreement, of a Danish Seamen's Church in Georgian London scandalizing the establishment with its "popish" [!] eucharistic vestments (never abrogated by the Scandinavian Evangelical state churches).
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The parish I am in now did not adopt Eucharistic vestments until about 1990. It had been surplice and stole before that, which is pretty typical for AZ. The current rule is that of 1549 'white alb, plain, with vestment or cope.' I find a cope fractionally cooler than a chasuble when it is hot in church, as it was this morning.
My home parish in Lincolnshire adopted vestments about 1912. It is actually surprising that it was that late, as the first Tractarian influenced incumbant had been appointed in 1858, and for the first ten years of his ministry he was inclined to push the pace.
My family - refugees from the Church of Ireland - do not like Eucharistic vestments, and make a point of telling me so. They are Matins and Evensong people, and might stay behind for Communion once a month if they are feeling especially devout. They tend to see my more High Church outlook as the road to either Rome or Ruin depending on their mood, even though I have never aspired to being anything more than 'unny side of Central' in my churchmanship.
PD
[ 01. July 2013, 01:12: Message edited by: PD ]
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I know this is tangential, but this thread does make me wonder when evening prayer started dying out. It seems due for a comeback, since it's by no means a given that people have Sunday morning off any more.
(Playing devil's advocate for a moment)
But what about people who work on Sundays? Isn't it important that they get the opportunity to go to the eucharist/mass/holy communion/Lord's Supper/whatever you want to call it on Sunday and other important days? So shouldn't there be a eucharisthingy in the evenings?
I appreciate that because there are not many ordained people there might have to be a lay-lead and thus non-eucharistic service in the evenings, though. I am inclined to think that BCP evening prayer persists mainly because we have lots of nice musical settings for it more than any other reason.
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
I got a kick out of this line in a story about the parish of the Bruce Peninsula, which was where my paternal grandparents lived and is an Anglican-Lutheran benefice:
quote:
“One Sunday, I wore a chasuble in an Anglican service, and the congregation asked, ‘Is that a Lutheran thing?’”
Reminds me of a similar story I read in the collection of essays that came out with the Waterloo Agreement, of a Danish Seamen's Church in Georgian London scandalizing the establishment with its "popish" [!] eucharistic vestments (never abrogated by the Scandinavian Evangelical state churches).
I remember on a fictional TV programme the Danish priests all wore cassocks and ruffs. But that was on a fictional TV programme and so may not be very accurate. IIRC the Danish are not quite as "high" as the Swedish?
[ 05. July 2013, 20:42: Message edited by: scuffleball ]
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Cassock and ruff is still Church of Denmark formal wear, and is still used for non-Eucharistic services, and on formal occasions covering both the Cassock and surplice/gown and frock coat and dog collar options for Anglican clergymen. Not sure how much it is worn outside of that formal context these days, but it was commonly seen until about a generation ago. The TV show was possibly old-fashioned, but not in accurate.
Alb, ruff and chasuble seems to be commonest for Communion in Danish Churches. Denark is lower the Sweden but not by much. The dominant influence in the reform was Johannes Bugenhagen, who was based in Hamburg when the ball got rolling in Denmark, rather than the Petri brothers. Denmark lost the apostolic succession in the 1600s, but apart from having a more north German style service, it is not that much lower than Sweden. The odds are lower on getting incense though!
PD
[ 05. July 2013, 20:59: Message edited by: PD ]
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
The Bergman flick Winter Light has a 50's country parish priest in the Church of Sweden wearing a cassock and bands for the Eucharist. Since Bergman's father was the royal chaplain, one imagines his portrayal was typical.
The priest also kneels before the altar for the whole service of table up to the Agnus Dei, which is interesting.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
PD, my understanding was closer to scuffleball's: that Pietism was a much Bigger Deal in Denmark (and also led to a greater suspicion of episcopal authority and tardiness in signing onto Porvoo). In any case, this text may be instructive.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Interesting to see the many pics in today's Church Times of recent ordinations. Nearly all the bishops wore chasubles: I think that would have been the exception only a few years ago. The newly ordained priests were in surplice and stole however (I only spotted a couple of black scarves) except for the Welsh ones who wore chasubles.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
5/26 Oxford deacons wore scarves. The Bishop wore a chasuble.
Thurible
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Interesting to see the many pics in today's Church Times of recent ordinations. Nearly all the bishops wore chasubles: I think that would have been the exception only a few years ago. The newly ordained priests were in surplice and stole however (I only spotted a couple of black scarves) except for the Welsh ones who wore chasubles.
Not in our little corner of Wales where the newly ordained wore alb and stole only (other Priests in attendance wore stole and surplice), the pictures you saw may have been from Llandaff which is where it would be more likely to find Priests being Ordained and presented with Chasuble...
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
True. I meant to specify Llandaff but I think it was one of the few Welsh dioceses pictured. But alb and stole is fine.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
I seem to recall that Monmouth priests are vested in chasubles too.
Thurible
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In my experience most, but by no means all, of the "open" and "charismatic" evangelical Anglicans went over to some kind of eucharistic vestments between about 1990 and 2010. Many conservative evangelicals do not use them - some prefering to wear normal clothes, others sticking with cassock and surplice.
How common is the chasuble in Open Evangelical circles? When I was last trip over myself in those circles they tended to be alb and stole, with some of the older guys still surplice and stole.
PD
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
I think Ken would define alb and stole as 'some kind' of eucharistic vestment. With the increasing number of evangelical ordinands, many of them are going to end up in chasuble-wearing parishes and nobody these days seems to have a principled objection to wearing them.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Yes, surely alb and stole are Eucharistic vestments, albeit without a chasuble they always look to me like a shirt and tie without a jacket - but what else would you (properly) use them for?
[ 07. July 2013, 09:51: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Alb and stole always looks to me as though one was interrupted whilst vesting, and then forgot to go back and finish. If I have to go stole only I will usually go for cassock and surplice rather than an alb, as that somehow looks finished whilst the other does not.
I do not have any problem with Eucharistic vestments even though I tend to be rather Protestant. I suspect my High Church streak gets the better of my Evangelicalism on this one - except when it is 83F indoors with the A/C on as it was here the other Sunday!
PD
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I think the alb/stole combo makes it look like the priest has forgotten his wedding garment. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Ah, you luckyduck Anglicans have all the fun. My church has a vestry full of chasubles, and I've had a series of five pastors in the past three years turn up their noses at them. They look at me as if I'm Johann Tetzel when I give them the grand tour. It's alb-stole all the way here. Sigh.
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Ah, you luckyduck Anglicans have all the fun. My church has a vestry full of chasubles, and I've had a series of five pastors in the past three years turn up their noses at them. They look at me as if I'm Johann Tetzel when I give them the grand tour. It's alb-stole all the way here. Sigh.
I can assure you that with "a vestry full of chasubles" you are the lucky one, even if your Priests do not use them... what I would give to have a vestry full of them... or the funds to make such so, but alas in the hills there is no money, and non-conformity reigned supreme for too long!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Ah, you luckyduck Anglicans have all the fun. My church has a vestry full of chasubles, and I've had a series of five pastors in the past three years turn up their noses at them. They look at me as if I'm Johann Tetzel when I give them the grand tour. It's alb-stole all the way here. Sigh.
I do wish that Lutherans were a bit more mindful of their liturgical heritage in the USA. The alb and stole routine has become almost as opporessive as the Prussian insistence that folks use the talar, the talar, and nothing but the talar -oh, and of course, beffchen.
PD
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Ah, you luckyduck Anglicans have all the fun. My church has a vestry full of chasubles, and I've had a series of five pastors in the past three years turn up their noses at them. They look at me as if I'm Johann Tetzel when I give them the grand tour. It's alb-stole all the way here. Sigh.
I do wish that Lutherans were a bit more mindful of their liturgical heritage in the USA. The alb and stole routine has become almost as opporessive as the Prussian insistence that folks use the talar, the talar, and nothing but the talar -oh, and of course, beffchen.
PD
You and me both. As a whole, the tide is always moving us away from, rather than toward, our liturgical heritage. I'm afraid Olaf is growing a bit weary of fighting it, and has his river-swimming floaties ready and waiting, just in case.
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
I saw the strangest thing on Sunday - the minister put on her chasuble at the offertory!
ETA in Taizé priests, bishops and deacons all just wear alb + stole (no chasuble/dalmatic) unless they're orthodox in which case they also wear a funny hat thing.
[ 10. July 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: scuffleball ]
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ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I saw the strangest thing on Sunday - the minister put on her chasuble at the offertory!
We call that 'dressing for dinner' around here. It happens in TEC often, especially when the celebrant wears a cope during the Liturgy of the Word.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I saw the strangest thing on Sunday - the minister put on her chasuble at the offertory!
ETA in Taizé priests, bishops and deacons all just wear alb + stole (no chasuble/dalmatic) unless they're orthodox in which case they also wear a funny hat thing.
aka 'Dressing for Dinner. It is quite common around here when it is hot. I prefer to remove my chasuble for the sermon so I can cool down a bit rather than not wear the chasuble for the liturgy of the word.
PD
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
It does seem a weird practice. If wearing a chasuble is consider too hot/ too high church/ too much fuss, then it is all these things during the 'liturgy of the Sacrament' as well as during the 'liturgy of the Word.' If the chasuble is worn to emphasise the importance of the eucharistic celebration then why do something which suggests that one part of it is more important than another? Word and Sacrament, in Anglican tradition especially, are two equally important elements of worship.
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Stephen
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# 40
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Posted
I've certainly seen it in the past. St.Michael's Aberystwyth used to do it at the Sung Eucharist - normally Harris in F with the Gloria and the Creed to Merbecke, but this was in its B.E days - Before Evangelical - I've no idea what they'd do now
I have a feeling it may have been quite common at one time although less so now. Perhaps it was to reinforce its connection with the Eucharist so they used it at the Liturgy of the Eucharist , after the synaxis part of the service? But I'm just guessing
Of course it could be a way of 'sneaking in' vestments in case someone in the congregation might object?
It'd be interesting to find out why, though.....
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Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I saw the strangest thing on Sunday - the minister put on her chasuble at the offertory!
We call that 'dressing for dinner' around here. It happens in TEC often, especially when the celebrant wears a cope during the Liturgy of the Word.
hmmm - don't see much of copes these days. Back in the 1970s I knew of a vicar who used his cope as though it were a chasuble........
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Like this, you mean (albeit with extenuating circumstances here)?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Yes, chasubles are still banned here and the situation is unlikely to change no matter who is elected the new archbishop.
Normal practice at our 10 am Eucharist (alternately sung or choral) is for whoever is presiding to wear a cope over alb and stole. The 7 am and 8 am Eucharists are said, and the cope is not worn. At a festival service, copes will be worn by the deacon and sub-deacon as well. That is a common practice amongst similar parishes in Sydney.
The ban is only on chasubles. Fr Steven, at St John the Evangelist, Dee Why sometimes wears a biretta with his cope. See for example:
http://www.stjohnsdeewhy.org.au
I can't recall seeing that elsewhere in Sydney.
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Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245
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Posted
Gee D - cope and biretta are fairly common vestures at Christ Church St Laurence. Also, it is not uncommon during High Mass for the celebrant to be in a cope and the deacon/sub-deacon in dalmatic/tunicle.
Fortunately for us, being 'free' of the ties that bind others to Diocesan rules, our celebrants vest in chasuble each Sunday. Come along to our Feast of Title on 18/8 and see it all - with a woman as celebrant and preacher, to boot!
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I thought that CCSL may have used them, but have yet to see them - admittedly, it is some time since we were last there. Thank you for your invitation, but 10.30 on 18 August sees us at another service elsewhere.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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