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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Champagne, Chauffeur's and Councils.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Tuned into a prog on Channel Four last night about how local councils spend their money, and while some of it was hardly surprising, other bits of it were really shocking. It dealt with meals eaten in fancy restaurants, which I can kind of gloss over at because I understand that a certain amount of 'entertaining' of dignitaries goes on. But there were other things that seemed a tad ridiculous. Champagne receptions seemed to be one which stood out. What's wrong with a good old prosecco or plain old wine? Where they entertaining the Saudi's or a President? It wasn't what you would call a one off event either.
But the thing that shocked me most was that nearly all the council members had chauffeur's! This seemed crazy to me, considering that one such person had a salary of just under a quarter of a million per annum! Why on earth can't they drive themselves to work like everyone else? And why such an enormous wage? Is this normal?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
nearly all the council members had chauffeur's!
Chauffeur's what, dear?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I'm afraid I didn't see the programme, but will hopefully catch it on 4oD. The councillors I know don't have chauffeurs, was it just the leaders and mayors who had them? I can see how a car might be required for official business if one has one of these roles, but its use ought to be controlled carefully.
I'm afraid I'm not entirely convinced by the use of fancy restaurants. What sort of 'dignitaries' would a council have to entertain at such excessive cost? (I think I read that Le Gavroche featured in the programme, is that right?)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Sure there is abuse and it makes a good story, but again Channel 4 is digging up at the extremes. If you looked into junketing at TV companies I'm sure you would find similar examples.
FWIW I often see one of my councillors and an Assembly Member (Welsh Assembly) on the bus. Parking at Newport's Civic Centre and anywhere in Cardiff is a pain, and the M4 is hopeless in the rush hour.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
But the BBC (and to an extent, Channel Four) aside, junkets by television companies don't cost the taxpayer a penny.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
But the BBC (and to an extent, Channel Four) aside, junkets by television companies don't cost the taxpayer a penny.
Um, commercial broadcasting junketing is paid for from advertising revenue. That is paid from the operating costs of advertisers and as such is free from tax, so the "taxpayer" contributes to them, albeit in a rather different way.
I call horseshit on your cockeyed assertion.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I admire your chutzpah, SS, in calling my comments 'cockeyed' after such a contorted argument in your first paragraph.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I admire your chutzpah, SS, in calling my comments 'cockeyed' after such a contorted argument in your first paragraph.
Translation: I admire your chutzpah but am unable to counter your argument.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Erm, no.
Then we await with bated breath your devastating refutation.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Sioni:
quote:
FWIW I often see one of my councillors and an Assembly Member (Welsh Assembly) on the bus. Parking at Newport's Civic Centre and anywhere in Cardiff is a pain, and the M4 is hopeless in the rush hour.
Certainly my own experience of council members here are that they are very conscious of what they spend, but there are always a few bad apples. The prog suggetsed that those using the chauffeur's were normal council members, which seems...well,mad to be frank.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Erm, no.
Then we await with bated breath your devastating refutation.
Well I'm not so good that it'll be 'devastating' but I find the comparison meaningless.
A council spends taxpayers' money. If it spends £2,000 on a 1961 Chateau Latour, that's money that can't be spent on a dustbin man or a filter for the municipal swimming pool. The bottle of wine is bought at the cost of the taxpayer. The cost to the taxpayer is, to my mind, quite direct.
If Endemol Productions splash out on a '61 Chateau Latour to celebrate the new series of Big Brother, the role of the taxpayer seems to me to be marginal, at best. SS's argument appears to me to be that if Endemol doesn't spend 2k on the wine, that money will become company profits which will then be taxed and the tax paid will then belong to the taxpayer.
If that is true, it doesn't to me seem to be directly analogous to my first example because, as I've said, the burden on the taxpayer is immediate in the first case but in the second case the taxpayer figures several steps down the line. Also, the entire 2k belongs to the taxpayer in the first example, whereas in the second example the taxpayer is only entitled to the tax on the sum paid.
But more importantly, there appears to be a fundamental difference in principle. A taxpayer has an interest in (could one say rights over?) money collected from him in taxation. But what interest does a taxpayer or the state have in money sitting in a company's account? It seems to me that they have none: if the money is part of the company's annual profits, then some of that is due to be paid in the form of corporation tax, etc. But until that time the money doesn't belong to anyone else and no-one can claim how it should be spent.
I currently have £10 in my wallet. I could i) put the money in the bank ii) keep it in my wallet or iii) buy something with it. If I go for option (iii) and the product I buy is taxable, then some of that £10 goes to the Treasury. But have I deprived or cheated the Treasury out of money by choosing options (i) or (ii)? I would say that I most certainly haven't and certainly not in a way that is analogous to a council spending a lot of money on a junket.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The prog suggetsed that those using the chauffeur's were normal council members, which seems...well,mad to be frank.
Yes, but the chauffeur's what? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The prog suggetsed that those using the chauffeur's were normal council members, which seems...well,mad to be frank.
Yes, but the chauffeur's what?
Passengers?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Anglican't,
I don't know if you'll agree but it seems to me that main difference between public sector spending and private sector spending is that in one case the taxpayer is screwed, while in the other, the shareholders are screwed.
<public procurement tangent>
If any council spends £2,000 on a bottle of wine it will have gone through a procurement and tendering exercise that took four staff a week, paid over the odds for the goods, and had it delivered on a silver salver. The cost of that to the taxpayer makes the cost of the wine insignificant! Any real business would phone up the best wine merchant in town, emphasize that "If it isn't top notch you'll not get any more business from us" and the whole show will cost about £2,002.50. Still, the public (allegedly) demands transparency in public procurement ........ ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) )
</public procurement tangent>
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
One of the most popular premiers that New South Wales had in recent times had a driver. That's because the premier didn't have a driving licence. He'd never learnt.
So it's not inherently appalling to not drive yourself unless one thinks that having a licence ought to be a formal requirement of political office.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Lose the apostrophe in the title. The subtle suggestions about this are apparently beyond your ken. Your misuse makes a bad post worse.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I see the grammar Nazi's are out in force. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
We're aware of the apostrophe, passer We're just waiting for Fletcher Christian to come beg us to correct it so we can so No.
Butt out, gassy. Spread your fumes elsewhere.
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Even more so than I was before
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
That would have been so funny if you hadn't fucked it up so royally. Which makes it funnier, dickhead.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I see the grammar Nazi's are out in force.
Punctuation Nazis, if you don't mind.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I see the grammar Nazi's are out in force.
I see what you did there.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I see the grammar Nazi's are out in force.
Punctuation Nazis, if you don't mind.
Holy snapping arsehole technicoloured defecation you people! it's the Apo'strophe Na'zis'!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I was going to correct the title but now I want you anal retentive little shits to twitch like over-caffienated hummingbirds every time you see it.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
ROFL at over-caffeinated hummingbirds.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
When it comes to Chauffeurs, I was wondering recently why MORE people don't employ them? I have a friend who is billed out at (a fairly top lawyer) who is billed out at quite a hefty rate. Certainly more than a decent driver would cost. His travel cost is billed out at half that, which is still a huge amount more than a driver would cost. Stick him in the back of a decent sized car with a 3G dongle and his laptop, and he could probably get a lot of work done and the time wouldn't be dead time for the company. They could probably even still bill out the travel time AND have him being effective while doing it. If a coucnillors effective rate is more than £40-50 per hour, it makes sense to employ a chauffeur so that they aren't wasting tax-payers money on time they could be doing their jobs.
[ 19. June 2013, 07:22: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
When it comes to Chauffeurs, I was wondering recently why MORE people don't employ them? I have a friend who is billed out at (a fairly top lawyer) who is billed out at quite a hefty rate. Certainly more than a decent driver would cost. His travel cost is billed out at half that, which is still a huge amount more than a driver would cost. Stick him in the back of a decent sized car with a 3G dongle and his laptop, and he could probably get a lot of work done and the time wouldn't be dead time for the company. They could probably even still bill out the travel time AND have him being effective while doing it. If a coucnillors effective rate is more than £40-50 per hour, it makes sense to employ a chauffeur so that they aren't wasting tax-payers money on time they could be doing their jobs.
This is true, but you fail to take into account the dismal state of local government in the UK. In practice the "dead time", during which a councillor is doing nothing useful, approximates to the time between their election and their retirement.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by PeteC:
quote:
We're aware of the apostrophe, passer We're just waiting for Fletcher Christian to come beg us to correct it so we can so No.
Beg?! I shall never cave.
It took me some time to notice it, having a peculiar brain affliction that rarely notice's these thing's, yet still know's enough to be deliberately enfuriating.
I'll have all you grammar tweakers on morphine drips before this thread's out.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I was going to correct the title but now I want you anal retentive little shits to twitch like over-caffienated hummingbirds every time you see it.
Or you could add one to 'Councils' - upping consistency and annoyingness in one swell foop.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
One of the most popular premiers that New South Wales had in recent times had a driver. That's because the premier didn't have a driving licence. He'd never learnt.
So it's not inherently appalling to not drive yourself unless one thinks that having a licence ought to be a formal requirement of political office.
Having a licence is not required of most employment or positions. However, for most mere mortals, if you choose not to learn to drive then you use public transport, simples. My understanding is that state and Federal pollies, whether licensed to drive or not have access to cars and drivers even for personal use. I think it's a bit much for local councillors to have the same but YMMV.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I was going to correct the title but now I want you anal retentive little shits to twitch like over-caffienated hummingbirds every time you see it.
Or you could add one to 'Councils' - upping consistency and annoyingness in one swell foop.
(Or if you really want to mind-screw you can do something like this.
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I was going to correct the title but now I want you anal retentive little shits to twitch like over-caffienated hummingbirds every time you see it.
Or you could add one to 'Councils' - upping consistency and annoyingness in one swell foop.
This wins.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the dismal state of local government in the UK. In practice the "dead time", during which a councillor is doing nothing useful, approximates to the time between their election and their retirement.
That isn't true of the councilors, from all three main parties, that i work with here.
I'd also add that most of the time which councillors devote to their constituents is unpaid, local and doesn't require any transport. Apart from those in ruling groups who have executive responsibilities they don't spend much time at Civic Centres and Town Halls.
If you are talking about chief administrative officers, formerly known as town clerks, yes, some of them do have hefty six figure salaries and very spiffy fringe benefits. I would expect them, rather than chairmen of council committees, to be driven around.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
Stick him in the back of a decent sized car with a 3G dongle and his laptop, and he could probably get a lot of work done and the time wouldn't be dead time for the company.
The back of a car is a really bad environment to work in. I couldn't do it at all - I get sick if I try to read in the car - but even if the car was parked, the seat is the wrong shape, there's nowhere to put a small desk etc.
Passing over the travel sickness problem, I could do work that involved reading and reviewing stuff in the back of a car, but would be astonishingly inefficient at anything that required writing, typing, or being creative.
By contrast, I find it easy to work on trains (at least, on inter-city trains with a decent table).
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
[qb] Stick him in the back of a decent sized car with a 3G dongle and his laptop,
Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like recreation of the one-handed variety? Dongle and computer and a back seat. Do they get tinted windows or is it also a public display?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Chauffeur's what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Chauffeur's what?
Crikey, is it Tuesday again?!
[ 21. June 2013, 22:39: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
[qb] Stick him in the back of a decent sized car with a 3G dongle and his laptop,
Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like recreation of the one-handed variety? Dongle and computer and a back seat. Do they get tinted windows or is it also a public display?
Am I the only one who thinks that No Prophet does not understand what Preview Post is for?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I said I didn't want the silver.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Am I the only one who thinks that No Prophet does not understand what Preview Post is for?
Bearing in mind your previous post in this thread, that is priceless.
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the dismal state of local government in the UK. In practice the "dead time", during which a councillor is doing nothing useful, approximates to the time between their election and their retirement.
That isn't true of the councilors, from all three main parties, that i work with here.
Lucky you. Round here, the councillors know perfectly well that if you shave a passing orang-utan and stick a Labour badge on it, it'll get elected. They're smug and complacent, and the people are poorly served because of it. That's why I used the word "retirement" - it's rare to get unelected here.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the dismal state of local government in the UK. In practice the "dead time", during which a councillor is doing nothing useful, approximates to the time between their election and their retirement.
That isn't true of the councilors, from all three main parties, that i work with here.
Lucky you. Round here, the councillors know perfectly well that if you shave a passing orang-utan and stick a Labour badge on it, it'll get elected. They're smug and complacent, and the people are poorly served because of it. That's why I used the word "retirement" - it's rare to get unelected here.
That is the peril of any one-party state, and you can say the same, with a ape of a different colour, about most of the south-east of England too. Newport used to be like that but Labour lost a lot of local clout in many places with the changes Peter Mandelson wrought, such that four parties now get to play here.
[ 22. June 2013, 14:07: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
God bless local councillors, who do a job which, if they're doing it properly, goes unnoticed by the communities they serve.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Also, I should be honest, if I was wedded to provincial nowhere for the rest of my life, I would charging hard drugs to the taxpayer, never mind posh plonk.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I was going to correct the title but now I want you anal retentive little shits to twitch like over-caffienated hummingbirds every time you see it.
Their's a problem with grammar in the title? Did'nt notice anything!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A B
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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