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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Worship in schools
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
On the 'Where do the children go?' thread, the following tangent arose regarding (Christian) worship in UK schools:
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Originally posted by Exlamation Mark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It is law for UK schools to have prayer, church school or not. From what I can tell, prayers and hymns at assemblies is pretty normal even in big cities. There may be a lot of children excused from the assemblies on religious grounds, but the assemblies still happen.
That's not my experience in towns nor in rural areas over the last 20 years. In fact Jade, to the East of Northampton, it was unusual even 20 years ago. Even in Devon (in church schools at that) there was only one assembly a week.
In many others (in a certain town location now) there are no school assemblies apart from the ones I do as visitor. That's true even in the most ethnically mixed schools (one I go to has only 10% bristish pupils), even though they are supposed to cover all the world religions. They do 4 of them but Christianity gets left out - sad but true.
Forget hymns and, in somem, forget prayers. You're allowed only a thought or reflection. In East Northants in the early to mid 1990's you all (I) were given specific instructions that you could pray but you couldn't pray in the name of Jesus.
I think this might merit a thread of its own. When I was growing up (20-25 years back now) we had assemblies at the junior schools most days, usually with one hymn and the Lord's prayer. I gather this might be considered very unusual now, even for a very 'white British' city such as mine.
(The hymns included old favourites about how God wants us to pick up litter and eat more vegetables, but also more 'serious' ones such as The Lord's my shepherd, Shine Jesus Shine and various Christmas carols).
After I went to secondary school at age 12, we only had one assembly a week, which included space for 'reflection, or prayer if you wish' but nothing more. Would this, then, be typical?
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
When I was growing up (20-25 years back now) we had assemblies at the junior schools most days, usually with one hymn and the Lord's prayer. I gather this might be considered very unusual now, even for a very 'white British' city such as mine.
(The hymns included old favourites about how God wants us to pick up litter and eat more vegetables, but also more 'serious' ones such as The Lord's my shepherd, Shine Jesus Shine and various Christmas carols).
After I went to secondary school at age 12, we only had one assembly a week, which included space for 'reflection, or prayer if you wish' but nothing more. Would this, then, be typical?
I went to school in the 1980s and 90s, and my experience was similar. Daily assemblies at primary school, always with a bit of Christian content and once a week with a Christian talk (a sermon, pretty much, although I didn't know the word then!).
Schools are still legally obliged to have a daily religious bit of a broadly Christian nature, aren't they? I know that many schools are quite creative in how they meet this obligation, mind you. Anyway, I'd personally favour the complete removal of the religious worship element from schools. Teach about religions, for sure, but religious instruction (indoctrination? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) ) should be kept apart from public institutions IMO.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
I was at school in the 70s. I went to a Church of England primary school where hymns and prayers were the norm. At secondary school, we had regular assemblies but these never involved any prayer of any description, despite both the Head and Deputy Head being practising Christians (in fact, the Deputy Head was also a Baptist Lay Preacher). We'd sing (if that's the right word) Christmas carols at the last assembly before Christmas though.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I have fond memories of singing hymns and saying prayers at primary school in the 70s. I don't remember much in the way of explicitly Christian speeches, though, and certainly no visiting clergymen. We had nativity plays - although the nativity play appears to be more of a representative of folk religion rather than of Christianity as such.
What I'm not clear on, though, is what purpose Christian worship in (secular state) schools serves. Some non-religious parents approve of it because it makes their children aware of the country's religious heritage. In other words, it replaces any serious religious teaching that their children might previously have received at home or in church. It turns Christianity into a heritage religion rather than offering any potential for future renewal. This is one reason why I'm rather wary of it.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
My children attended a Church of England Voluntary Aided secondary school.
On most days "Assembly" consisted of a brief period in their form room after the register had been taken when letters were issued, notices read out - litter, lunch arrangements, discipline, etc - detention slips were handed in, etc, etc.
Once a fortnight there was meant to be a Year Assembly where all 8 forms gathered in the hall for a hymn, reading and prayer. Attendance was not enforced and my children said it was usually just one of the RE staff mumbling with no one listening.
Roughly Once a month there was a House Assembly - same as form but with years 7-11 in the gym because the Hall was too small. Again, attendance was seen as voluntary and it was uninspiring.
Once a term there would be a 2 form eucharist. Attendance: in theory obligatory but in reality only those who were confirmed if they decided to turn up.
My children's complaints were that the level of input that they had: for the eucharist parents were told that music, prayers and readings were chosen by the pupils but this was not the case. For any other assembly music was usually recorded worship songs -from the USA or Africa mainly - which few, if any, pupils knew so participation was minimal.
The "highlight" of their last year was meant to the the Leavers' Eucharist: big hopes because they could choose readers and music. A list of music the pupils wanted was submitted and a list of readers/people to read prayers: NOT ONE of the songs or hymns requested was included, only one of the people delegated to read was on the list.
But then, according to the admissions policy all these children and/or their parents attended church on average 48 sundays a year but I only ever met 1 friend of my children who went to church and that was only when he stayed with his grandmother in another part of the country...
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My children's complaints were that the level of input that they had: for the eucharist parents were told that music, prayers and readings were chosen by the pupils but this was not the case. For any other assembly music was usually recorded worship songs -from the USA or Africa mainly - which few, if any, pupils knew so participation was minimal.
The "highlight" of their last year was meant to the the Leavers' Eucharist: big hopes because they could choose readers and music. A list of music the pupils wanted was submitted and a list of readers/people to read prayers: NOT ONE of the songs or hymns requested was included, only one of the people delegated to read was on the list.
Wow, that sounds awful... And I'm guessing it left most of the children (how about yours, L'organist?) with a pretty negative impression of Christianity and, by extension, Christ himself. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
If schools are going to have an act of collective Christian worship, it's surely vital that they explain what's going on and make it accessible to the children. In fact (sudden bright idea), for schools that do the act of collective Christian worship, they could deliberately do it in different ways, rather than the same style each time. So get people in from nearby churches to run, as much as possible, a service in the way they'd normally do their regular Sunday (or other day, as applicable) service. Or would most church leaders / priests etc. not be keen, maybe seeing it as inappropriate given that the children wouldn't be their regular congregation?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by South Coast Kevin
Wow, that sounds awful... And I'm guessing it left most of the children (how about yours, L'organist?) with a pretty negative impression of Christianity and, by extension, Christ himself. [Frown]
Actually Kevin I don't think it left ANY impression of "Christianity" at all: what it did leave was a firm belief that the CofE is a soft touch (vis-a-vis admissions) and that the RE department was staffed by weirdos.
I doubt whether any of the children related the goings on to Christ in any way.
My own children came to church but they did think it was a travesty that funds from hard-pressed congregations were being used to fund this sort of stuff because it was supposedly a "Church" school.
As for the "Christian ethos" argument: the school had just as much of a problem with bullying as every other one around the area, the only difference is that the school dealt with bullying in far more cack-handed fashion.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually Kevin I don't think it left ANY impression of "Christianity" at all: what it did leave was a firm belief that the CofE is a soft touch (vis-a-vis admissions) and that the RE department was staffed by weirdos.
I doubt whether any of the children related the goings on to Christ in any way.
Heh heh, that's not so bad then, I guess! Although maybe the lack of negative impression on your children was partly due to their having a rather more positive impression of Christianity and Christ thanks to your church. Anyhow, I'm glad it didn't put your children off for life.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
The "daily act of collective worship" isn't UK wide - it doesn't apply in Scotland. That said, the school I work in does have school services at Christmas and Easter, with the students responsible for much of the service. The minister comes into school regularly and occasionally leads assemblies.
When I was at a CofE primary, on the other hand, the law was observed in both letter and spirit. Whole school, 3 hymns, and either the school prayer or the Lord's prayer, along with a talk from either the head or the Vicar, 3 days a week, with a hymn practice one day and a similar upper or lower school assembly on the other day.
[ 06. May 2013, 13:30: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It is law for UK schools to have prayer, church school or not. From what I can tell, prayers and hymns at assemblies is pretty normal even in big cities. There may be a lot of children excused from the assemblies on religious grounds, but the assemblies still happen.
There must be a lot of regional variation then. When I taught in a state comprehensive school 40 years ago (whew!) in a not-very-observant but far from secular part of Merseyside, pupils might attend one 'house' assembly a week, which was mostly moral waffle if it wasn't simply admin, with the Lord's Prayer thrown in if the teacher in charge was sufficiently religious; and maybe one year-based 'school' assembly which was similar except that it was mostly about wearing ties. Hymns were unheard of. A 'time for reflection' was pretty rare too.
The school was not unfriendly to religion; there were several keen evangelical teachers on the staff as well as two Anglican priests (myself included) and a few devout Roman Catholics. However, I think most people realised the impracticability of observing the law about school worship, not to mention the nonsense of 'compulsory' worship.
[Just remembered to add] There was an annual school Carol Service at Christmas, held in the local parish church. This was usually the traditional establishment 'nine lessons and carols' format, which was welcomed by most staff and many parents, and tolerated by most kids. One year a rather radical Christian on the staff was given carte blanche to experiment, and produced a challenging liturgy incorporating news headlines, relating the Bethlehem story to contemporary homelessness etc... while those of us involved thought it was a refreshing and much-needed new slant on the theme (especially as the school served one of the neediest and poorest communities in the country) the Head and many of the governors were horrified, and the next year all was back to religion as the top-dressing on society rather than the challenge to its values.
[ 06. May 2013, 13:43: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
At my (Catholic) school in Malta we had monthly school mass from the ages of 6-16. During Early School we had prayers at daily assembly too.
That's private schools - I'm sure government schools are similar about having a regular mass, and Church schools probably have more religious events.
We'd crown Mary in a school ceremony every May (I've got good memories of that), and there was a special school walk to celebrate Saint Martin's day.
Non-Catholics and non-Christians (though in a great minority) were in no way obliged to participate.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
The 1988 Education reform Act modified collective worship in that:
1) although 'daily', many schools don't have a hall large enough for the whole school so the act doesn't have to start the day - it can have different houses or years at different times
timetabling wold be a nightmare if assemblies went on all day in a roll on roll off bases so form assemblies are possible too. I used to produce a set of 'thought for the day's for tutors to use before a period of silent reflection.
2) guidance to the cact specifically says that 'collective' is not the same as 'corporate' worship. A group collects together to experience worship. It does not require every pupil to assent - so any cry of 'indoctrination' is unjustified.
That being said, most RE teachers prefer to opt out of assembly, lest it be seen to compromise their procedural neutrality in the classroom
3) such acts of worship should reflect 'Christian beliefs.' NOT Christian worship practices. It isn't a mini church service.
4) they should be appropriate to pupils' backgrounds - so you shouldn't expect Christian commitment.
In practice, good schools provide a space for reflection in the midst of a busy school day. Done well, these are invaluable to the school community and don't annoy atheists, Hindus or whatever. Not a lowest common denominator but a shared celebration of our highest aspirations.
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
Also... having a chapel, with the blessed sacrament, on school grounds was always something I liked. I think having a designated chapel at school is a good idea (not sure if that would translate to "inter-faith" rooms).
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Leo
In practice, good schools provide a space for reflection in the midst of a busy school day. Done well, these are invaluable to the school community and don't annoy atheists, Hindus or whatever. Not a lowest common denominator but a shared celebration of our highest aspirations.
Eh? I've never encountered this.
Mentioned it to the offspring who ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
"Space" in the middle of their school day consisted of an attempt to get 1700 pupils lunched in an hour and fifty minutes when the only space available for them to eat seated a maximum of 300 - you do the maths!
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've taught in several Creamtealand schools as well as (obviously) being a pupil in them myself when young. The danger, as I see it, is that assemblies are often the only time when everyone in the school gets together. So they are used as times of administration and notices as well as prayers, songs and readings. They are also used as a chance to have hymn practice, while everyone is together. So, whenever the headteacher has something strict or stern to say - about children misbehaving - it gets mixed up with the religious part. Not necessarily completely mixed up time-wise but mixed up in the children's minds. God AND the headteacher will be cross with you if you don't do as you are told!
Perhaps it would be better for pupils to have more small group RE lessons rather than 'acts of worship' in assemblies?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Was at primary school from 1994-2000, secondary school from 2000-2005, both non-church schools in highly multicultural Coventry. Very Christian assembly daily with hymns and usually Christian-flavoured talk from headteacher or a senior teacher at primary school. Nothing religious at secondary school apart from singing the 12 Days of Christmas at our last assembly before the Christmas holidays. RE lessons very good and very diverse though.
Did schools work via my church in East Sussex between 2007 and 2011, my experience of primary schools in the towns was identical to my own primary school, except that the schools were bigger so daily whole-school assembly wasn't possible. I didn't work in any of the secondary schools.
Best friend is from just outside Bradford, and was at school at the same time I was. She remembers different assemblies for the different faiths represented at the school, in both primary and secondary schools.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
The only time for reflection I remember from my grammar school days was that interval of time between arriving at the Headmaster's study and being summoned within.......my school (in the 1960s) was a milder descendant of Dotheboys Hall.....
Seriously, though, the Head was a practising Christian, and a member of the local parish church. We had an act of corporate worship every day, with hymn, Bible reading, and prayers, and anything less would have seemed strange. (The school had an enormous and very fine pipe organ in the Assembly Hall, played with great eclat by Mr. Woodwork Master...).
IIRC, there were at least two boys in the school who were *gasp* Roman Catholics...... . They were excused RE lessons (God knows why), but I'm not sure if they attended Assembly. Other faiths were..er.... absent......
Ian J.
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moonfruit
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# 15818
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Posted
I'm currently a teacher in a C of E primary school in West London. We have assembly every day - whole school Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, with key stage (Infants/Juniors) assemblies on Wednesday.
Friday is our Merit/Class assembly, and Thursday is often singing. Monday and Tuesday are usually led either by the headteacher, or by local clergy (we have a whole variety - the two parish vicars, the local baptist minister, the anglo-catholic vicar from up the road, the parish youth workers...). There's a theme for every week (e.g. bravery, prayer, Jesus' life, friendship, Fruits of the Spirit), and assemblies reflect these in a broadly Christian way. Assemblies always include a prayer, either at the beginning or the end, or sometimes both, and almost always a song, often Christian - either a hymn, or something from Come and Praise, or something more modern.
We also have a table at the front of the hall with a tablecloth in the current liturgical colour, a cross, a plant and a lit candle. I would say that even for a C of E school, we're quite 'religious', largely I think as a result of our headteacher's strong personal faith - she pretty much sets the tone. We also go to church for Eucharist every half term, with all 200 children - we make quite a picture walking through town!
Edited to add - we're also expected to say a prayer before lunch, and at the end of the day in class. My class always manage lunchtime, end of the day tends to get lost in the rush...
This is all in total contrast to my first teaching gig, in a school on a rough, multicultural estate, where there was never any mention of God (of any religion) in assemblies - although I suppose at least assemblies happened - and the songs were all about friendship or learning or other such vague themes.
[ 06. May 2013, 21:34: Message edited by: moonfruit ]
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Bostonman
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# 17108
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Posted
All of us Americans are totally befuddled right now.
Most of these assemblies sound horrible. My immediate response (which is undoubtedly unfair) was "No wonder the Church is shrinking." But then we're not doing so hot over here, either...
My school assemblies included neither singing nor quiet reflection, thank God. What kind of elementary school boy wants quiet reflection? Hitting sticks with other sticks, that's the stuff. Meanwhile they're cutting into all sorts of recreational time to cram cram cram for standardized tests so we can show the world we're better at math than Namibia or whoever's just passed us on the list. Quiet reflection, I think, might be first to go!
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
All of us Americans are totally befuddled right now.
Most of these assemblies sound horrible. My immediate response (which is undoubtedly absolutely bang on) was "No wonder the Church is shrinking."
FIFY. Well, it's probably part of the reason. It doesn't help, anyway.
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Indifferently
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# 17517
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Posted
We had nothing in the way of Christian worship or prayer at my school. I am strongly of the view that this is a very bad thing, that we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
I do remember however that we had plenty of lectures about how such and such was "institutionally racist" etc. And we never sung hymns or anything like that.
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
...we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
How very Old Testament of you... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
...we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
How very Old Testament of you...
To be fair, we do have a state church in England (and Indifferently belongs to it, according to his or her profile). A number of people have asked what purpose a state church serves if it's unable to create or to nurture a 'strongly Christian society', via its schools or otherwise. A number of different answers have been put forward, but none of them has really taken its place as the preeminent raison d'etre of the CofE in the modern era. Perhaps this feeds into the lack of clarity as to what Christian (Anglican) worship in schools is meant to achieve.
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
My school assemblies included neither singing nor quiet reflection, thank God. What kind of elementary school boy wants quiet reflection? Hitting sticks with other sticks, that's the stuff.
What, morris dancing?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
that we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
I do remember however that we had plenty of lectures about how such and such was "institutionally racist" etc.
Surely a 'strongly Christian society' would be the very opposite of one that was 'institutionally racist'? Teaching children about Jesus while ignoring the latter would be hypocritical and wrong.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To be fair, we do have a state church in England (and Indifferently belongs to it, according to his or her profile). A number of people have asked what purpose a state church serves if it's unable to create or to nurture a 'strongly Christian society', via its schools or otherwise...
Indeed we do! However, this is something else I'd say is 'very Old Testament'. Certainly, I don't see much in the New Testament about gaining control of the levers of political power. Bloody Emperor Constantine...
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
We had nothing in the way of Christian worship or prayer at my school. I am strongly of the view that this is a very bad thing, that we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
Interesting concept. The fact that most teachers are not practicing Christians might be a bit of a snag there - unless as part of your "living in a strongly Christian society" includes requiring a particular faith of teachers.
Personally I think we ought to live in a secular society where everyone is free to live out their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, without state direction as to what those beliefs should be.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
All of us Americans are totally befuddled right now. ...
Why?
I can see that some of what's been described sounds a bit depressing, but who could fail to admire Moonfruit's head, if the reality is as Moonfruit describes it? Slough, by the way, for foreigners, isn't a particularly smart or sylvan place.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently
I do remember however that we had plenty of lectures about how such and such was "institutionally racist" etc.
I hope that was secondary school. Using the term with primary school children would be as bizarre, and educationally ridiculous, as haranguing them on total depravity or the dictatorship of the proletariat.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Primary School in Brighton in the 1960s. Whole-school assembly first thing every day immediately after the register. Basically it was notices and admin stuff, maybe some praise or prizes if someone had done something specially wonderful, one hymn or song (usually explicitly Christian), and a short traditional-language prayer whiuch I suspect may have been the Lord's Prayer as often as not. There woudl have been (I think, its a long time ago) a short moralising Thought for the Day or pep talk from a teacher, sometimes the headmaster (especially if he was angry about something - whuch he often was for mostly rather bizarre reasons - I still remember him trying to show us how to dry our hands after going to the tolet using only one paper towel - nearly fifty years later I still haven't managed it)
Secondary school was a boy's grammar which went co-educational while I was there. Assembly was pretty much exactly the same. Main differences were a lot more announcements about sporting events we'd won the week before (our school being sports-mad), better quality singing (hymns were from Songs of Praise) and many fewer rants from the headmaster, who was comparitively sane.
If anything it was rather more explicitly Christian than primary school had been, with little thoughts-for-the-day Wee Word slot sometimes involving Bible stories. But it could also be quite secular, maybe reading a moralising poem, or passing some comment on the current news. There was also at least some opportunity for the pupils to be involved in it - perhaps a short musical performance or something like that. One of the teachers (who was very publically Christian) would have some of us doing Bible readings or reading prayers we'd written ourselves when it was her turn.
If your parents wrote a letter to the school objecting to the assembly on religious grounds you didn;t have to go, but spent the ten or fifteen minutes in another room, with a teacher supervising you, supposedly reading or getting on with school work. At primary school there were very few objectors, mostly Jews IIRC. At the grammar school Jews and Jehovah's witnesses formed the largest groups of objecters but there were some atheists as well. (And some of them were no more atheists than anyone else was but just bored with assembly or maybe like an extra ten minutes to complete their homework) There were a very few Muslims at the school who I assume would have been excused from assembly but I don't actually remember. I'm pretty sure that being Catholic didnn't count as on objection. The assembly was explicitly Christian but usually very wishy washy and unobjectionably liberal (theologically liberal that is - they were very keen on boys doing exactly as they were told and knowing who was boss)
Even in the 1970s that kind of assembly was old-fashioned, and not all the schools around us did it. Most had assemblies daily, but they were occasions for notices. In the 1980s the schools my mother and then wife taught in, and my daugher went to, did not have that kind of assembly at all. Primary schools seemed to have daily assemblies, but with no overtly Christian aspect. Often a different class teacher would take assembly each day on a sort of rota, and they owuld use it to show off somethign their class had done or have them singing a song or something. Secondary schools seemed to have less frequent assemblies, and they were more admin-oriented. Basically a place to give out notices. There might be occasional longer themed assemblies.
But in my experience, outside church schools the assembkly as an explicit act of communal Christian worship was dying out in the 70s and long dead by the 90s.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
Edited to add - we're also expected to say a prayer before lunch, and at the end of the day in class. My class always manage lunchtime, end of the day tends to get lost in the rush...
I had forgotten entirely until just now, but we did often have a short prayer or a song at the end of the school day in our primary school. I re-read your poist and the words of the the song "Now the day is over, night is drawing nigh..." came into my head. And yes, I think we did use to sing that.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But in my experience, outside church schools the assembkly as an explicit act of communal Christian worship was dying out in the 70s and long dead by the 90s.
The exception, especially in primary schools, is when a County school has a Christian head. He or she will try to ensure that the requirement for daily assemblies is held and that the content will be mostly Christian. I taught in such a school, in an area with several Muslims. From discussion with their parents, it was decided that they would attend assembly and listen, but not pray. So when all the other children put their hands together and bowed their heads, they would keep their eyes open and stare straight ahead. Otherwise, no particular concessions were made except that, during Ramadan, they stayed indoors and lunchtime and fasted.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
I went to a large primary school on the edge of a housing estate in the 1970s, where assembly consisted of hymns such as "Morning has broken", often accompanied by the school orchestra (i.e. a few violins and recorders), a brief prayer and a vaguely improving story out of an assembly book. The headmaster had some favourite stories that we heard regularly. If he was away, Mr Bregartner deputised. Mr Bregartner was nearing retirement and always read from Enid Blyton's "A Children's Life of Christ" in the most boring voice imaginable.
In 1977 I went to an Anglican secondary school. We only had assembly twice a week (two days lower school, two days upper, as the hall wouldn't accommodate everyone) but this was remarkably formal - Hymns Ancient and Modern, a brief confession, the Apostles' Creed and the Lord's Prayer. The Head always wore his academic gown. On Tuesdays we had parish prayers, which meant that instead of staying with your own class you went to the classroom where your parish priest was leading an act of worship (if you weren't Anglican you could either join the nearest parish group or go to the hall with the RE teacher). The priests, or often new curates, did what they liked with these sessions. Ours used to ask for religious questions (e.g. "If God made the world, who made God?") and bravely attempted to address one question a week.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
We had nothing in the way of Christian worship or prayer at my school. I am strongly of the view that this is a very bad thing, that we ought to live in a strongly Christian society and that sate schools should aid this by teaching children about Jesus.
Interesting concept. The fact that most teachers are not practicing Christians might be a bit of a snag there - unless as part of your "living in a strongly Christian society" includes requiring a particular faith of teachers.
Personally I think we ought to live in a secular society where everyone is free to live out their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, without state direction as to what those beliefs should be.
But liberals have proven in practice that though they say they want this, they actually don't. Which is why teachers often teach political correctness dogmas even more forcefully than anyone has taught the Gospel.
If you think I am making this up, dare to look over the minutes of any teachers' union meeting. The profession is dominated by the hard Left.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Indifferently - who says 'political correctness dogmas' and the Gospel can't go hand-in-hand? They often do.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
And what wicked political correctness dogmas might those be Indifferently?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I would hazard a guess at anything left-wing..... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Mustn't let those loonie lefties anywhere near our little darlings, must we?
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
dare to look over the minutes of any teachers' union meeting. The profession is dominated by the hard Left.
If only.
The N.U.T. does all it can to silence its left wring.
The NAS/UWT is quite conservative.
My union, ATL wasn't even affiliated to the TUC until quite recently.
Most teachers are conformists by temperament.
[ 10. May 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Indifferently - who says 'political correctness dogmas' and the Gospel can't go hand-in-hand? They often do.
I don't think they can, although I have seen people of both sexes wearing what look like clergy vestments preaching the PC gospel from the Church of England's pulpits. They are innovators at best, and the Church once had (and perhaps still has) Canon law declaring that teaching contrary to the ancient bishops and Catholic fathers were not allowed.
The gospel of "inclusion" and "human rights" is at best a half Gospel, ignoring the bits of the Sermon on the Mount, and teachings of the Apostles and Bishops they don't like. These people don't really want Jesus to be Lord of their lives: they just like a bit of camp ceremonial on a Sunday morning, with someone who looks respectable backing up their views.
This is the biggest problem facing the Church. People want to rule it rather than letting it rule them. If schools were Christian, I suspect it would be the same sort of nominal religion I have seen in a number of Aff Cath parishes.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Indifferently - who says 'political correctness dogmas' and the Gospel can't go hand-in-hand? They often do.
I don't think they can, although I have seen people of both sexes wearing what look like clergy vestments preaching the PC gospel from the Church of England's pulpits. They are innovators at best, and the Church once had (and perhaps still has) Canon law declaring that teaching contrary to the ancient bishops and Catholic fathers were not allowed.
The gospel of "inclusion" and "human rights" is at best a half Gospel, ignoring the bits of the Sermon on the Mount, and teachings of the Apostles and Bishops they don't like. These people don't really want Jesus to be Lord of their lives: they just like a bit of camp ceremonial on a Sunday morning, with someone who looks respectable backing up their views.
This is the biggest problem facing the Church. People want to rule it rather than letting it rule them. If schools were Christian, I suspect it would be the same sort of nominal religion I have seen in a number of Aff Cath parishes.
Jesus is indeed Lord of my life, and it's Jesus being Lord of all that makes inclusion and human rights interests of mine - because they are His interests too.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
I can just imagine the Ten Commandments as they might be rendered today.
1. Thou shalt not take the name of the Labour Party in vain.
2. Thou shalt make unto thyself many graven images, and shalt bow down and worship them, and shalt call their name Facebook.
3. Thou shalt not smoke indoors.
4. Thou shalt not question climate change.
5. Thou shalt not espouse Christian views on sexual morality.
7. Thou shalt not question Islam.
8. Honour thy BBC and thy Guardian.
9. Thou shalt not be racist, which is to be interpreted, thou shalt not question mass immigration or multiculturalism.
9. Thou shalt dress like a teenager all the days that thou tarriest upon the earth.
10. Thou shalt covet all thy neighbour's goods and lobby for him to be taxed more.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I can just imagine the Ten Commandments as they might be rendered today.
1. Thou shalt not take the name of the Labour Party in vain.
2. Thou shalt make unto thyself many graven images, and shalt bow down and worship them, and shalt call their name Facebook.
3. Thou shalt not smoke indoors.
4. Thou shalt not question climate change.
5. Thou shalt not espouse Christian views on sexual morality.
7. Thou shalt not question Islam.
8. Honour thy BBC and thy Guardian.
9. Thou shalt not be racist, which is to be interpreted, thou shalt not question mass immigration or multiculturalism.
9. Thou shalt dress like a teenager all the days that thou tarriest upon the earth.
10. Thou shalt covet all thy neighbour's goods and lobby for him to be taxed more.
Hell call.
This is just getting boring now. Let's keep to the actual topic.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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moonfruit
Shipmate
# 15818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can see that some of what's been described sounds a bit depressing, but who could fail to admire Moonfruit's head, if the reality is as Moonfruit describes it? Slough, by the way, for foreigners, isn't a particularly smart or sylvan place.
Thank you!
Not that it makes ever so much difference, but although I am a Slough resident (someone has to live here...), the school I work at is in Uxbridge, just inside the M25.
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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.
Posts: 180 | From: Just outside the M25 | Registered: Aug 2010
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