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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God's wrath and indignation against us
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief? Could it be yet another attempt to exalt man before God?
The Confession and Absolution is so watered down in Common Worship that it almost feels like we ignorer our sin and its place next to the Atonement altogenher.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief?
Because being cast out of the Garden of Eden, being cursed with painful things, then obliterated in a flood, then scattered to the ends of the earth with different language was considered punishment enough to assuage God's holy wrath against us sinners.
What more can the bastard want?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I guess this straddles the border between Purgatory and Ecclesiantics, since the OP raises much wider questions than liturgical practice. But I'm going to check that out with Eccles Hosts. Meanwhile, carry on.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
The Evangelicals consider that the wrath of God has been satisfied.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
"Evangelicals" doesn't quite fit that usage. Some Evangelicals yes, not all.
Calvinists perhaps?
I actually had to read The Institutes on his theory of atonement cos I was a naughty girl.
*shudder*
[ 12. June 2013, 08:48: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
.......Hope I didn't incur your wrath, Evensong!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Because being cast out of the Garden of Eden, being cursed with painful things, then obliterated in a flood, then scattered to the ends of the earth with different language
Or 'culture' as we godless call it. Re the rest of your list - natural disasters are the tariff for a viable planet; pain is a necessary survival mechanism, and an idea of a not-currently-present perfection good for the poetry industry.
It's all right, people: the weather is not angry at you. Death and disease has nothing personal. Turn your attention to what we are responsible for, and set about fixing that.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Turn your attention to what we are responsible for, and set about fixing that.
That's pretty good. The Jesus of the gospels seemed to be much much more hacked off by indifference, pontificating and pettifoggery over religious rules than anything else. That stuff made him pretty wrathful.
All this food-sharing, healing, and mixing with disreputable outsiders seemed to be much more up his street than precise religious observance. He seems to have had a much greater concern for what it meant really to love unselfishly.
Personally, I reckon that learning to love unselfishly and spreading that about helps a lot in the fixing of all manner of human ills. I remember that when I pray "Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven".
Some folks reckon that precise liturgical observance plays a vital part in that. I don't really "get" that, never have. That's probably why I'm more comfortable lower down the candle.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief?
When you say "sinners", are you talking about other people, yourself, or both?
I guess there might be different reasons for your frustration. Is your problem theological, personal or judgemental?
If it's judgemental - that you feel you need reminding every week that people are bad, then honestly, get over it. It's God's prerogative to judge.
If it's theological, then I get the frustration, but it's not the end of the world. Liturgy reflects theology, but it can never encompass all of it.
If, however, it's personal, I can imagine you might feel you're missing the words that express your own process of repentance during the liturgy. That seems to me more of a problem, but I think there's still enough in there dealing with the severity of sin and our response to it.
So yeah, you feel that the liturgy is lacking something, but why do you think that's a problem?
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief?
Because being cast out of the Garden of Eden, being cursed with painful things, then obliterated in a flood, then scattered to the ends of the earth with different language was considered punishment enough to assuage God's holy wrath against us sinners.
True enough. That is if we leave out the captivity in Egypt, the captivity in Babylon, the first and second razing of the temple, life under the Romans and that thug, Herod. That's just for starters. What am I leaving out? quote:
What more can the bastard want?
That we turn and be saved?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Hmmm - have to add that to my Images of God list - God the Abusive Parent.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Confession and Absolution is so watered down in Common Worship that it almost feels like we ignorer our sin and its place next to the Atonement altogenher.
Interesting question.
Could you give an example of how Common Worship has watered down the prayers you mention; eg, compared to what? The BCP with it's 16thc 'miserable offenders' theology? Communion services or Morning/Evening Prayer - which have different options for Confession/Absolution? (I presume you're referencing CofE liturgy?)
And why do you say 'watered' down? Is that how it feels like to you? How do you know how others praying these prayers share your feelings? Or are you worried that they don't know how much of a 'miserable offender' they are, and by golly someone should jolly well tell them?
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief?
Because there's not much about it in the Gospel. True, some of the Fathers got a bit hot under the toga - too much desert sun, probably - but as a dominating theme in Christianity, you really have to go to hard-line Calvinism or some of the more lurid manifestations of counter-reformation Catholicism.
In the Gospel, I read grace, love, salvation, generosity, and an overturning of worldly power, pride and might in favour of the poor, the oppressed, and those who mourn - and all of it undeserved.
Or have I been mistranslating John's Gospel? Did he actually say, "God was so pissed off with the world that he gave his only Son"? Cos as the youth are wont to say, I didn't get that memo.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I think some in the Reformed tradition have a tendency to use the word 'wrath' as though it was obvious what it meant, when it isn't.
I mean, the literal meaning of wrath is anger. But the Thirty-Nine Articles tell me God is without passions, i.e. emotions. Therefore God's wrath must be a metaphor for something else. But what?
I think within Calvinism 'wrath' is tied up with a particular view about the way God interacts with the world. It should not necessarily be assumed that all Christians share that view.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Evensong: What more can the bastard want?
Someone being sacrificed on the Cross.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief?
Because being cast out of the Garden of Eden, being cursed with painful things, then obliterated in a flood, then scattered to the ends of the earth with different language was considered punishment enough to assuage God's holy wrath against us sinners.
True enough. That is if we leave out the captivity in Egypt, the captivity in Babylon, the first and second razing of the temple, life under the Romans and that thug, Herod. That's just for starters. What am I leaving out? quote:
What more can the bastard want?
That we turn and be saved?
Thousands of years of punishment does not appear to be working.
Time for something else hey?
Unless of course, God is stupid.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
I'm just about to post a link, which I think anyone interested in this subject would profitably read. But before I do, please be aware that the light comes in the exchanges that follow, and it's a long read. Give yourself at least half an hour and probably twice that to absorb it.
Here it is. (PS - it starts by talking about Anglicanism, but please don't be put off by that.)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Evensong: What more can the bastard want?
Someone being sacrificed on the Cross.
No she didn't.
We did that.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
... pain is a necessary survival mechanism, and an idea of a not-currently-present perfection good for the poetry industry.
No wonder I hate poetry.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Hmmm - have to add that to my Images of God list - God the Abusive Parent.
Karl, that is a standard trope in my preaching: God is not an abusive father with anger management issues. Rather Christ is the divine physician. Sometimes the cauterization of the wound can be painful.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In answer to your question Evensong, in answer to Indifferently, that we stop projecting our ids on Him.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Hmmm - have to add that to my Images of God list - God the Abusive Parent.
Karl, that is a standard trope in my preaching: God is not an abusive father with anger management issues. Rather Christ is the divine physician. Sometimes the cauterization of the wound can be painful.
Which is fine, but you earlier gave me the image of a parent chasing a child around with a big stick, beating them and insisting that the child is making them do it.
But I don't see how you can describe the events under discussion as healing of any kind.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
How effectively does God's wrath and anger toward sinners turn those self-same sinners toward God?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
How effectively does God's wrath and anger toward sinners turn those self-same sinners toward God?
The same way that a child beaten enough by an abusive parent eventually becomes acquiescent.
There's more than a hint of Stockholm Syndrome in some expressions of Christianity.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
How effectively does God's wrath and anger toward sinners turn those self-same sinners toward God?
The same way that a child beaten enough by an abusive parent eventually becomes acquiescent.
There's more than a hint of Stockholm Syndrome in some expressions of Christianity.
Miaow! That's pretty cutting, but - hmm - maybe you have a point...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Evensong: quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Evensong: What more can the bastard want?
Someone being sacrificed on the Cross.
No she didn't.
We did that.
(Psst, I agree with you. In my first post, I was going along with your sarcasm.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
How effectively does God's wrath and anger toward sinners turn those self-same sinners toward God?
The same way that a child beaten enough by an abusive parent eventually becomes acquiescent.
Yes.
Or alternatively one (quite rightly) finally puts up a finger, says "FUCK YOU GOD" and becomes an atheist.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Can anyone tell me why we have removed any reference to God's holy wrath against sinners from modern liturgy, both a scriptural and patristic belief? Could it be yet another attempt to exalt man before God?
The Confession and Absolution is so watered down in Common Worship that it almost feels like we ignorer our sin and its place next to the Atonement altogenher.
On the other hand, traditional liturgy says little on corporate sin against the environment or economic sin, for example. Isn't this a way in which traditional liturgy is lacking?
Common Worship has the congregation confessing that they have sinned in thought, word and deed by their own deliberate fault - that seems pretty comprehensive in terms of acknowledging people's sin. Why the need to go overboard in the light of Christ's forgiveness?
[ 12. June 2013, 15:04: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Evensong: What more can the bastard want?
Someone being sacrificed on the Cross.
No she didn't.
We did that.
He did. Jesus was given up to death in accordance with God's definite plan and foreknowledge. God planned the perfect sacrifice of his Son by crucifixion. It wasn't an accident.
[ 12. June 2013, 15:03: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
In answer to your question Evensong, in answer to Indifferently, that we stop projecting our ids on Him.
Or our superegos.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's more than a hint of Stockholm Syndrome in some expressions of Christianity.
Sad but true. Mine own not excepted.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
daronmedway: He did. Jesus was given up to death in accordance with God's definite plan and foreknowledge. God [i]planned/[i] the perfect sacrifice of his Son by crucifixion. It wasn't an accident.
That's what you believe. I don't. And I wouldn't want to have anything to do with someone (or Someone) who'd plan on killing his own child, whatever good reasons he might have for it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
To the person who enquiries about what I am comparing CW to, I recommend a copy of the Book of Common Prayer which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment at the fact that it demonstrates our utter helplessness before the throne of Grace. The whole Communion sequenee - Invitation to Confession "Ye that do truly and earnesdly repent you of your sins" to General Confession "We acknowledge and Brazil our manifold sins and wickedness ... provoking most justly thy wrath" to Absolution "all them that with hearty repentance and true faith" to Comfortable Words "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father". It's so beautiful in the way it demonstrates God's love for us even though we are sinners.
Compare that to the text in Common Worship, where one of the Confessions doesn't even require us to say we are sorry, or even worse the 1979 American liturgical service book, where the Absolution doesn't even require repentance.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Brazil?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment
exaggerate absurdly much?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
To the person who enquiries about what I am comparing CW to, I recommend a copy of the Book of Common Prayer which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment at the fact that it demonstrates our utter helplessness before the throne of Grace. The whole Communion sequenee - Invitation to Confession "Ye that do truly and earnesdly repent you of your sins" to General Confession "We acknowledge and Brazil our manifold sins and wickedness ... provoking most justly thy wrath" to Absolution "all them that with hearty repentance and true faith" to Comfortable Words "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father". It's so beautiful in the way it demonstrates God's love for us even though we are sinners.
Compare that to the text in Common Worship, where one of the Confessions doesn't even require us to say we are sorry, or even worse the 1979 American liturgical service book, where the Absolution doesn't even require repentance.
Can you provide evidence of 'liberals' (define liberal) burning copies of the BCP? Liturgical innovation is not unique to liberals, as conservative evangelical Anglicans show.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Since Indifferently likes to bewail his sins and wickedness, a violation of the 9th commandment is probably helpful to him.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: He did. Jesus was given up to death in accordance with God's definite plan and foreknowledge. God planned the perfect sacrifice of his Son by crucifixion. It wasn't an accident.
That's what you believe. I don't. And I wouldn't want to have anything to do with someone (or Someone) who'd plan on killing his own child, whatever good reasons he might have for it.
I think it's possible that the point of view you express here is rooted in a sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism. Them's big words for saying that ain't how it works 'cos that ain't who God is.
[ 12. June 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: He did. Jesus was given up to death in accordance with God's definite plan and foreknowledge. God planned the perfect sacrifice of his Son by crucifixion. It wasn't an accident.
That's what you believe. I don't. And I wouldn't want to have anything to do with someone (or Someone) who'd plan on killing his own child, whatever good reasons he might have for it.
I think it's possible that the point of view you express here is rooted in a sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism. Them's big words for saying that ain't how it works 'cos that ain't who God is.
Substitutionary atonement not being the only atonement theory is surely not a new idea?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
To the person who enquiries about what I am comparing CW to, I recommend a copy of the Book of Common Prayer which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment at the fact that it demonstrates our utter helplessness before the throne of Grace. The whole Communion sequenee - Invitation to Confession "Ye that do truly and earnesdly repent you of your sins" to General Confession "We acknowledge and Brazil our manifold sins and wickedness ... provoking most justly thy wrath" to Absolution "all them that with hearty repentance and true faith" to Comfortable Words "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father". It's so beautiful in the way it demonstrates God's love for us even though we are sinners.
Compare that to the text in Common Worship, where one of the Confessions doesn't even require us to say we are sorry, or even worse the 1979 American liturgical service book, where the Absolution doesn't even require repentance.
Can you provide evidence of 'liberals' (define liberal) burning copies of the BCP? Liturgical innovation is not unique to liberals, as conservative evangelical Anglicans show.
It was metaphorical.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
daronmedway: I think it's possible that the point of view you express here is rooted in a sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism.
Another one to add to my collection of heresies!
Sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism. Now, there is one that has the right ring of pompousity to it.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
To the person who enquiries about what I am comparing CW to, I recommend a copy of the Book of Common Prayer which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment at the fact that it demonstrates our utter helplessness before the throne of Grace. The whole Communion sequenee - Invitation to Confession "Ye that do truly and earnesdly repent you of your sins" to General Confession "We acknowledge and Brazil our manifold sins and wickedness ... provoking most justly thy wrath" to Absolution "all them that with hearty repentance and true faith" to Comfortable Words "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father". It's so beautiful in the way it demonstrates God's love for us even though we are sinners.
Compare that to the text in Common Worship, where one of the Confessions doesn't even require us to say we are sorry, or even worse the 1979 American liturgical service book, where the Absolution doesn't even require repentance.
Can you provide evidence of 'liberals' (define liberal) burning copies of the BCP? Liturgical innovation is not unique to liberals, as conservative evangelical Anglicans show.
It was metaphorical.
The particular motive you ascribe to our metaphorical burning of the book is still offensively bullshit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: I think it's possible that the point of view you express here is rooted in a sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism.
Another one to add to my collection of heresies!
Sub-Trinitarian relational anthropomorphism. Now, there is one that has the right ring of pompousity to it.
Might be true though. If you start with a chopped up God, substitutionary atonement will look like abuse. If you start with the Trinity it begins to look like love.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
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Originally posted by Indifferently:
To the person who enquiries about what I am comparing CW to, I recommend a copy of the Book of Common Prayer which many liberals have burned and buried in embarrassment at the fact that it demonstrates our utter helplessness before the throne of Grace. The whole Communion sequenee - Invitation to Confession "Ye that do truly and earnesdly repent you of your sins" to General Confession "We acknowledge and Brazil our manifold sins and wickedness ... provoking most justly thy wrath" to Absolution "all them that with hearty repentance and true faith" to Comfortable Words "If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father". It's so beautiful in the way it demonstrates God's love for us even though we are sinners.
Compare that to the text in Common Worship, where one of the Confessions doesn't even require us to say we are sorry, or even worse the 1979 American liturgical service book, where the Absolution doesn't even require repentance.
Can you provide evidence of 'liberals' (define liberal) burning copies of the BCP? Liturgical innovation is not unique to liberals, as conservative evangelical Anglicans show.
It was metaphorical.
Was the thing about liberals hating the BCP a metaphor too? Because a lot of AffCath folks love a BCP service, myself included. Meanwhile many conservative evangelical Anglicans will never have gone to a BCP service in their life.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
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daronmedway: If you start with a chopped up God, substitutionary atonement will look like abuse. If you start with the Trinity it begins to look like love.
I guess it might look a bit like love if you allow for the fact that God as a whole suffered on the Cross (Patripassionism). I'd still have a couple of uses with it though.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Issues. Not uses.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: If you start with a chopped up God, substitutionary atonement will look like abuse. If you start with the Trinity it begins to look like love.
I guess it might look a bit like love if you allow for the fact that God as a whole suffered on the Cross (Patripassionism). I'd still have a couple of uses with it though.
You could start off by spelling patripassianism correctly.
Then you could admit that its definition as a heresy is pretty sketchy, being grounded in a particular philosophy rather than in the bible.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: If you start with a chopped up God, substitutionary atonement will look like abuse. If you start with the Trinity it begins to look like love.
I guess it might look a bit like love if you allow for the fact that God as a whole suffered on the Cross (Patripassionism). I'd still have a couple of uses with it though.
Strictly, patripassionism is when the Father is seen as suffering on the Cross (in the terms of the Athanasian creed, confounding the persons) but then not to allow that God suffers when the second person of the Trinity dies on the cross is surely (in Athanasian creed terms) to divide the substance. "'Tis mystery all, th'immortal dies: who can explore his strange design?"
[ 12. June 2013, 16:04: Message edited by: BroJames ]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Dinghy Sailor: Then you could admit that its definition as a heresy is pretty sketchy, being grounded in a particular philosophy rather than in the bible.
But, but ... people told me.
I admit that 'patripassianism' probably isn't the right word for the idea of the whole God suffering on the Cross, I'm open for better suggestions.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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