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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pay fuckers
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
Ladies and gentlemen, today I wish to utilise the region known as hell to discuss the department at my work that is now to be known as the pay fuckers. Last month's pay was much higher than normal so I phoned the pay fuckers who reassured me that it was correct and it was because they'd forgotten to add parts of my pay package properly.
Last night I went to work, read my email and discovered the pay fuckers had emailed me saying that unfortunately due to their error they had got my pay wrong in 25 of the previous 25 months and I now owe them almost four grand. Now I don't know what the standard error is for pay fuckers but I would have thought that they would have managed, probably by accident, to get it right once in this period.
So I phoned the pay fuckers this morning to get told the pay fucker 'who does the sums' is on annual leave. I don't work for some two person firm, I work for one of the biggest government departments in the UK. Frankly I would have thought that they would have more than one pay fucker who could do basic arithmetic and computers are quite useful these days and can do a remarkable amount of things like fucking count.
The pay fuckers were remarkably incorrect in their estimations of my pay, that is if I can trust the figures they've now given me. Apparently one month I was due £350.76 and they paid me £1128.48. Another month I was due £967.83 and they paid me £101.13. (My pay is complicated by it having various different parts to it and they all depend on what I work, where I work and what hours I work).
So today I demand that all pay fuckers are taken out, lined up against the wall, made to do complex mental arithmetic and if they make any errors, beaten to death with a shovel. And then they can stick their four grand up their dead arses.
Thank fuck for unions.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That's fucked up.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
That surely has a nasty implication for the tax you have paid too?
Seems odd that they pass on the mistake and not have insurance against this kind of thing. 25 months of an error is a tad extreme. Maybe they are manatees that pick balls out of a tub with numbers on and assign it to random people.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
Beat them to death with a rolled up Logarithmic Table; that would be more poetic justice.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
That would be a fitting sine.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
chive: Last night I went to work, read my email and discovered the pay fuckers had emailed me saying that unfortunately due to their error they had got my pay wrong in 25 of the previous 25 months and I now owe them almost four grand.
Surely there are laws against that? Paid is paid.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
That would be a fitting sine.
Please don't take us off on that tangent.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
That surely has a nasty implication for the tax you have paid too?
Yes, if I've paid tax on this £4000 and now they want it all back including the money I never received because the government spent it on rich bankers or shooting the poor or something. Like fuck are they getting it all.
I have decided the maximum I can repay every month is £50. If that takes the rest of my career to pay it back that's what it takes. I'm not having my Chinese food, chocolate button and Amazon addictions restricted because the pay fuckers can't count.
And I know I should have checked my payslips but my pay is so damn complex - this year my monthly paycheck has varied between £1200 and £4100 - and I expect the pay fuckers to do things right.
The pay fucker I spoke to this morning said they didn't have a coomplaints procedure. Damn right I'll be checking this.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
IAN in any sense AL, but like LeRoc says, I'm not sure they can legally make you pay the money back if it was their error and you took it in good faith. The Union rep (or a lawyer - but I'm thinking the Union might be able to hire a lawyer for you?) is definitely the way to go.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Of course they can get you to pay the money back. The only thing a mediator or arbitrator or even a judge would consider is (1) length of time to pay it back, i.e., how much to deduct from pay each pay period to apply toward the total, (2) that there should be no penalty interest, which is all you probably get because the error is their's not your's.
As for not knowing what you're owed, whether on an hourly consulting fee or different levels in different deployments, different by the job pay levels, complicated by travel, work expenses etc etc. The fault is entirely your's for not keeping proper track and when you were paid too much, keeping the extra money that is not rightly your's aside so as to pay them back. -- been right where you are about 7 times over 30 years. So get yourself organized and stop playing the victim.
Edit: re tax. You provide the particulars to the tax people who credit your tax account, so you don't lose out that way either. Those who paid you should be willing to contact them and provide documentation to the tax authorities. These things, in my experience, are always eventually resolved, and are the cost of doing business sometimes. My largest inconsistency approached $21,000, which is somewhere in the £15,000 range I think.
[ 30. May 2013, 13:31: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I would think that somewhere in the small print of your employment contract it says that over-payment of salary is refundable. I would expect them to agree to take it out of your gross pay at an affordable rate, and because it comes out of your gross pay, you will get back the tax and employee's NI previously deducted.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
That is truly disturbing. I would be too pissed for words (mad, that is, for our British shipmates).
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Wow. That's really awful.
Empathise with pay slips being overly complex too. Mine is a Rubick's cube. But no one has screwed it up that badly.
no prophet: Seriously - fuck off.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
My payslip is electronical since the beginning of this year. I haven't been able to see it yet. Something to do with the wrong version of Windows which doesn't allow me to install an extra piece of software, in combination with the wrong browser.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I assume 'thank fuck for unions', means you are glad for the help of a trade union, and I would like to echo that. I got into a total schemozzle with regard to a lump sum that I was due, over which the employer hummed and hawed for eternity, but fortunately I was in a union, and they made short work of it, and got me nearly the max. No wonder UKIP want to get rid of them (unions).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
IANAL, but I believe that once you have been paid and accepted the payments, then you are on secure ground in terms of being able to negotiate repayment. You are liable to pay it back, definitely, but you are in a position to negotiate the payback at an appropriate rate for you.
Once you have agreed it, the money should be taken form your salary before tax, so that your tax should come back into line. It is then your employers job to sort out their own tax position. Given that it is a government department, they will probably fiddle it.
And yes, this is well fucked up. Glad you have the unions to work with you. Remember, you are in the right here. You would be justified in arguing that you shouldn't have to pay it back at all - they should just write it off. In fact, for over a year ago, that might be a good play. Or even from the start of the tax year, because otherwise it will mess things up. You might not win this, but it might be an interesting place to start.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Some sort of arbitration might be of use in reducing your burden. IANAL, but I think the ultimate responsibility is yours, as fucked up as that is.
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
That is truly disturbing. I would be too pissed for words (mad, that is, for our British shipmates).
Pissed means pissed, except when it means pissed. And mad means mad, except when it means mad.
However, I think this situation could easily encompass all the various meanings.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Once you have agreed it, the money should be taken form your salary before tax, so that your tax should come back into line. It is then your employers job to sort out their own tax position. Given that it is a government department, they will probably fiddle it.
The employer's NI should automagically fix itself as well when you do this, and government departments don't have profits to ay corporation tax on, so there should be no further tax implications.
The prescription provided by Schroedinger's cat above will work correctly provided that you have been a basic rate taxpayer for the last couple of years, and continue to be a basic rate taxpayer during the repayment, and providing the basic rate of income tax doesn't change. So as long as he basic 20% rate remains your highest rate of tax, it's "easy".
Given that this went on for two years, though, it's not impossible that your union might be able to get your employer to write it off. Certainly the worst you should face is to repay it slowly and without interest.
As always, IANAL, this isn't advice, and is worth what you paid for it. Fortunately, your union has lawyers experienced in employment law who you do pay...
One final thought - if your employer has managed to calculate your wages wrong for the last two years, do you have any confidence that their new calculation is actually right? What do you think you should have been paid?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
UK public sector organisations are notorious for getting people's pay wrong. Any hint of anything other than unvarying weekly or monthly payments seems to send payroll departments into conniptions.
I work in the public sector and in my organisation the rules are: if they underpay you, they have to put it right immediately, but if they overpay you, then you have as long to repay as the error persisted. So in your case, chive, you'd have 25 months to pay the excess back. However, some organisations operate a "statute of limitations", so they won't try to reclaim errors further back than 1 or 2 years ago. It might be worth seeing if your union can negotiate this for you. Also, get your union to check your organisations numbers. Twice. If payroll made a mistake 25 months running, who's to say they're not making another one now?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Of course they can get you to pay the money back. The only thing a mediator or arbitrator or even a judge would consider is (1) length of time to pay it back, i.e., how much to deduct from pay each pay period to apply toward the total, (2) that there should be no penalty interest, which is all you probably get because the error is their's not your's.
As for not knowing what you're owed, whether on an hourly consulting fee or different levels in different deployments, different by the job pay levels, complicated by travel, work expenses etc etc. The fault is entirely your's for not keeping proper track and when you were paid too much, keeping the extra money that is not rightly your's aside so as to pay them back. -- been right where you are about 7 times over 30 years. So get yourself organized and stop playing the victim.
Edit: re tax. You provide the particulars to the tax people who credit your tax account, so you don't lose out that way either. Those who paid you should be willing to contact them and provide documentation to the tax authorities. These things, in my experience, are always eventually resolved, and are the cost of doing business sometimes. My largest inconsistency approached $21,000, which is somewhere in the £15,000 range I think.
np, what is your location? Are you a lawyer? Moreover are you an employment lawyer who understands payroll, tax and NICs. No?
Then I'm sure that gives chive a good idea how worthwhile your advice has been.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
UK public sector organisations are notorious for getting people's pay wrong.
There is probably a reason for that, they employ the people they want to employ rather than the people who can actually do the job. I went for a job in the payroll department of my local council, for which I was qualified (maths degree, ten years experience running my own payroll bureau). I was happy with the pay they were offering but apparently I didn't fit the profile of employee that they were looking for. My mole in the department tells me that the incompetent pay fucker they found to do the job required six months re-training from a social work background and still screws up on a regular basis. Shame, because I do payrolls far more complicated than that at my own (insured) risk, but it would have been nice to have a swanky office and a pension.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Profile=friend. One who likely already employed there at a lower position.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
Apparently it was someone from another department who had screwed up badly enough to warrant a sideways promotion. But definitely a friend of someone in the know.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Of course they can get you to pay the money back. The only thing a mediator or arbitrator or even a judge would consider is (1) length of time to pay it back, i.e., how much to deduct from pay each pay period to apply toward the total, (2) that there should be no penalty interest, which is all you probably get because the error is their's not your's.
As for not knowing what you're owed, whether on an hourly consulting fee or different levels in different deployments, different by the job pay levels, complicated by travel, work expenses etc etc. The fault is entirely your's for not keeping proper track and when you were paid too much, keeping the extra money that is not rightly your's aside so as to pay them back. -- been right where you are about 7 times over 30 years. So get yourself organized and stop playing the victim.
Edit: re tax. You provide the particulars to the tax people who credit your tax account, so you don't lose out that way either. Those who paid you should be willing to contact them and provide documentation to the tax authorities. These things, in my experience, are always eventually resolved, and are the cost of doing business sometimes. My largest inconsistency approached $21,000, which is somewhere in the £15,000 range I think.
np, what is your location? Are you a lawyer? Moreover are you an employment lawyer who understands payroll, tax and NICs. No?
Then I'm sure that gives chive a good idea how worthwhile your advice has been.
Chive = a herb. Don't know what you're saying with that.
With the other, I didn't give advice, I posted about what experience has shown. I've been in business for 25 years, was employed before that. 3 companies, lawyers and accountants on retainer. Billing, paying, hiring, firing, payroll. Plenty of experience buddy. I'm posting out of that. The embedded suggestion I suppose, if you stretch things, is that there will be repayment. I would, as an employer and contract payer, arrange that. Either you come to an agreement or you call in the big guns. Better to agree, particularly if you want to keep the possibility of further business open.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
... due to their error they had got my pay wrong in 25 of the previous 25 months and I now owe them almost four grand.
Do you have any particular reason to believe them more about the four grand than the previous 25 months? Can you insist that they prove that they're right about the four grand?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
With the other, I didn't give advice, I posted about what experience has shown. I've been in business for 25 years, was employed before that. 3 companies, lawyers and accountants on retainer. Billing, paying, hiring, firing, payroll. Plenty of experience buddy. I'm posting out of that. The embedded suggestion I suppose, if you stretch things, is that there will be repayment. I would, as an employer and contract payer, arrange that. Either you come to an agreement or you call in the big guns. Better to agree, particularly if you want to keep the possibility of further business open.
1. The interest of a business owner and an employee differ. I'm sure you would fight tooth and nail to get 'your' money back, even if it was you or your payroll department that screwed up.
2. The public sector and private sector differ.
3. Rules and practice in one jurisdiction do not necessarily apply elsewhere. I'm not sure why I have to repeat that, but hey ho, some folk don't want to read!
I agree that 'Advice' was the wrong word. Your statements were so useless as to be a waste of pixels. Thank God they can be recycled.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
With the other, I didn't give advice, I posted about what experience has shown. I've been in business for 25 years, was employed before that. 3 companies, lawyers and accountants on retainer. Billing, paying, hiring, firing, payroll. Plenty of experience buddy. I'm posting out of that. The embedded suggestion I suppose, if you stretch things, is that there will be repayment. I would, as an employer and contract payer, arrange that. Either you come to an agreement or you call in the big guns. Better to agree, particularly if you want to keep the possibility of further business open.
1. The interest of a business owner and an employee differ. I'm sure you would fight tooth and nail to get 'your' money back, even if it was you or your payroll department that screwed up.
2. The public sector and private sector differ.
3. Rules and practice in one jurisdiction do not necessarily apply elsewhere. I'm not sure why I have to repeat that, but hey ho, some folk don't want to read!
I agree that 'Advice' was the wrong word. Your statements were so useless as to be a waste of pixels. Thank God they can be recycled.
Oh, you are SOOOO right. That's what you insist on being. You don't know me, but you're the smart one. You tell us how brilliant you are some more, you're the genius. -- you just tell us all your completely correct jurisdictional advice and experience.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Oh, you are SOOOO right. That's what you insist on being. You don't know me, but you're the smart one. You tell us how brilliant you are some more, you're the genius. -- you just tell us all your completely correct jurisdictional advice and experience.
You lose.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I'll do a deal with you np. I won't tell you how things go in Canada and you get the hell out of telling people what things ought to be like over here. Does that seem reasonable?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
and providing the basic rate of income tax doesn't change.
(and, of course, although the "tax" rate didn't change, the NI rate changed in 2011. If you're really taking about 25 months, though, then the change happened just before the period we care about.)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'll do a deal with you np. I won't tell you how things go in Canada and you get the hell out of telling people what things ought to be like over here. Does that seem reasonable?
Sounds okay, except the frame of reference is not what you state. It's business, public service, the employee, contractor and employer aspects. Which is parallel. I learned years ago, when someone has their heart set on being right and smarter, you let them have what they want. So you win.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
And I know I should have checked my payslips but my pay is so damn complex - this year my monthly paycheck has varied between £1200 and £4100 - and I expect the pay fuckers to do things right.
I have never, ever, even once checked my payslip.
I am incompetent with money, and aware of that. This is why I have an accountant to do my taxes, and an accounting department at work to do my pay. If they screw up, how is "But you should be better at our job!" an excuse?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
No prophet, it seems to me that by being rude without humour, you misunderstood a basic tenant of hell.
In other news, when my employer over paid me, they took back exactly that amount from my next pay. Less tax and NI.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
When I worked for the Post Office I always checked my slip for three reasons:
(1) I worked relief, so my hours varied week-to-week
(2) Some of my pay was things like anti-social hours. If I had a good week the extra unsocial hours pay would off set the extra NI contributions.
(3) Make sure the buggers did not screw me on my overtime because as sure as hell the taxman was going to screw me on NI and PAYE.
I actually prefer being in a salaried job, but there are weeks when I miss overtime. Usually the ones in which I have had a three of 12 hours days and had to work on my day off.
I think it is a good idea to get the Union to have a look at what the Pay Fuckers have been up to, but please remember that they may also have a vested interest in protecting the Pay Fuckers from the consequences of their own stupidity.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I learned years ago, when someone has their heart set on being right and smarter, you let them have what they want.
Sometimes the world's irony supplies are inadequate to demand.
(Btw, the 2nd person possessive is 'yours' - no apostrophe - wherever you live.)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
There is probably a reason for that, they employ the people they want to employ rather than the people who can actually do the job.
Ain't that the fucking truth. I recently interviewed for a new team member, and after we'd seen all six people on our shortlist HR pointed out that as one of them was a "redeployment candidate" (read: being made redundant from another department) we had to hire them. Even though we thought three of the other candidates were better.
We'd spent an entire day interviewing only to be told that it had all been completely irrelevant. Pissed off doesn't begin to cover how we felt.
Oh, and before anyone starts blaming management for this sort of shit, it's actually down to the Unions insisting that staff being made redundant have to be hired in any vacant job they choose to apply for. Brilliant for the individual who gets to stay in work, not so much for the poor sods who are relying on them to do a good job...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... Oh, and before anyone starts blaming management for this sort of shit, it's actually down to the Unions insisting that staff being made redundant have to be hired in any vacant job they choose to apply for. Brilliant for the individual who gets to stay in work, not so much for the poor sods who are relying on them to do a good job...
#1. You seem to be forgetting that the employer and the union AGREE on the terms of the collective agreement. That's why it's called an "agreement". Get it? So it is perfectly appropriate to blame management for agreeing to that. And it's absurd to blame a union for bargaining effectively for their members, since that's the whole reason for its existence. That makes about as much sense as complaining that your defense lawyer kept you out of jail.
#2. My collective agreement says laid-off employees have a right to interview for any positions for which they are qualified. It looks your management negotiators weren't very careful about the language in the agreement. Maybe they're the ones who are in positions they're not qualified for.
Behind every dumb union thing is an equally dumb management thing. I could be wrong, though. Perhaps in your workplace the union just "insists" on things and the employer just complies. That's like, totes awesome! Where do I sign up?
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The responsibility normally lies with the employee to ensue that matters in relation to tax and NI are correct. Witness the recent public scandals with HMRCcliaming back tax to peop;le who have two (declared) sources of income that they (HMRC) decided to do nothing about.
In tax law you have to prove your innocence, they don't have to prove your guilt. Hence they can send anyone a tax bill for any amount and you hve to prove that it is incorrect. Effectively you have to checxk that they are doing their job properly. Which brings us to the exception ...
The exception is if there is proveable negligence - but the key word is proveable. Simple inefficiency or a claim of "backlogs" isn't enough: there must be demonstrable mistakes and wrondoig, amoutning to misconduct in empplyment to stand much of a chance.
In this case, the length of time and the scale of the error is scarcely believeable - unless one is dealing with Govt Depts (like we are). Then, the employer is entitled to ask for immediate repayment of all sums due but most will spread this over a period: they could also technically ask you to work without pay for a time to recoup it. You have been given money which isn't yours.
In practice most will come to an agreement over a period of time. It's as well to inform HMRC of the problem yourself (phone 1st thing in the morning at 8 am and you'll always get through), backing it up with a letter setting out the facts. Wise to copy it to the employer and ask for it to remain on their files too - rejecting any involvement you may have in the mistake (vital to do this in vcase HMRC does a drains up as a result - always get a denial oin 1st). Consider reporting the organisation to HMRC too as they (HMRC) could be losing tax income as a result of inefficiency - simply the threat of this is usually enough to get most people off their bottoms and do something.
However, I do wonder if there's something more to this. The sums involved are large and very variable: in those instances, surely you'd check your pay to make sure it's right? Every organisation must give you a breakdown of how the pay is calculated if it's a waged job and if your self employed, you'll have an invoice anyway.
In short a couple of pieces of advice when it comes to employment law (from an ex staff association national board member)
- keep ALL records re income, tax etc for a minimum of 6 years - yes HMRC can and do go back that far
- be able to prove all credits to all of your accounts (I photocopy every cheque, even birthday gifts and have a paper trail for all internal transfers between accounts). Do this when it happens and keep a box file fpor each tax year
- check everything carefully and throughly. Don't assume anyone gets it right all the time - you'll be surprised how often it is wrong in someone else's favour
- don't be afraid to tackle anyone when it does go wrong: HMRC paid me 0.01p once because they couldn't prove that they could round tax bill up as they had been doing: I rounded down and won
- seriously consider hiring an accountant even if you think your tax affairs are vanilla
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Perhaps in your workplace the union just "insists" on things and the employer just complies.
More like union insists, management suggests a compromise, union threatens to strike until it gets its way. Seriously, we have strike ballots roughly every other month over issues they're just not willing to negotiate about.
But my point was simply that unions aren't always a great thing for employees, and sometimes the things they do work against more people than they benefit. People on this thread have been all "the union will help you out of this situation" without considering that union-demanded policies may well have contributed to it in the first place.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Back in the dim and distant a colleague had this kind of problem. Once it had been settled he queried *everything* for pay, expenses and incidentals, demanding explanations and justification of payments and any deductions, from fear of having to go through the same painful rigmarole again.
It wouldn't be a bad tactic to ensure payroll systems are designed and set up correctly. How many queries could the pay fuckers handle?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
#2. My collective agreement says laid-off employees have a right to interview for any positions for which they are qualified. It looks your management negotiators weren't very careful about the language in the agreement.
Or maybe the HR rep had misunderstood the policy.
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
#2. My collective agreement says laid-off employees have a right to interview for any positions for which they are qualified. It looks your management negotiators weren't very careful about the language in the agreement.
Or maybe the HR rep had misunderstood the policy.
Or understood the policy and also knew that the management line was, "We're not paying out a penny more in redundancy money than we have to - so, as long as they still have a pulse, shovel them into any job going."
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I have queried my pay before but as I now do the payroll (including my own) it is always correct.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Deputy Verger
Shipmate
# 15876
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Posted
Chive, It's too bad that you evidently don't have your own records of hours worked at which rate over the past two-plus years, but I can relate to that, as I would be in the same boat (er, Ship?) if it happened to me.
But I agree with the two previous posters who said if the PF's original calculations couldn't be trusted (even by them), why should you suddenly believe them now? IANAL either but I think you could bluff them – don't admit you don't have your own records but demand to see the original calculations and the re-calculations in detail and then sit down and prepare yourself for a long night trying to remember when you had the juicy months, and the lean ones, just checking everything you can – especially their arithmetic.
My instinct is that the third figure at the end of all that recalculation will be different again.
Posts: 475 | From: London | Registered: Sep 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
Hmmm. I was thinking the thread title was an imperative, not merely descriptive.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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