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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anglicanism and the new Pope
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The Church Times, among others, are running a story that the Anglican Bishop of Argentina reports:
"[the then Cardinal] called me to have breakfast with him one morning and told me very clearly that the Ordinariate was quite unnecessary, and that the Church needs us as Anglicans."
Anyone have any thoughts on the implications of this statement or what it might mean, both for the ordinariate and for relations between Rome and Anglicanism?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Even more impressive than that, Venables says:
"and [the Cardinal] invariably makes me take part and often do what he as Cardinal should have done."
These are exciting times. I just hope he doesn't change his mind now that he's dealing with heretical and apostate Anglican bodies in the West, rather than the orthodoxy prevalent in the developing world.
My major worry is that this pope, coming from a poorer country where Anglicanism is relatively undefiled, will assume the Papal office, have to deal with Kathy and Justin - who now tells us he's only against gay marriage because it's not equal enough! - and decide that the previous popes had it right about us all along. Time will tell.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
None, at least as far as Canadian Anglicanism is concerned. We are busy with dioceses arranging to allow parishes the "local option" to bless civilly married same sex couples, and some 30 years in to both genders being ordained, we'd have to see much change on the Roman side before we'd accept their catholicism.
This said, local Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans do much together, and also include non-liturgical denominations particularly United Church of Canada.
It is an interesting perceptual and cultural point of view, but the Roman catholic denomination is merely that - another denomination - among many in our perception here. It seems to be more than a denomination in some other places. Is this so?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
The fact is that if Rome is to admit that she is not the 'one True Church' and renege on some of her doctrinal errors, we in the West must also be humble, look at our Anglican churches, and say how they have erred and strayed from God's ways like lost sheep, too. Sorting out these divisions in Christ's Body is not going to be easy.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Idle question, Indifferently- do call Anglicans "defiled" and "apostate" to their faces in real life, or only behind their backs and on the internet?
[ 14. March 2013, 19:20: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
This said, local Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans do much together, and also include non-liturgical denominations particularly United Church of Canada.
I'm glad you think we're pleasant, but non-liturgical? Have you seen my threads in Eccles?
Please retract, your assertion is offensive.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Idle question, Indifferently- do call Anglicans "defiled" and "apostate" to their faces in real life, or only behind their backs and on the internet?
I'm an Anglican.
I will tell it like it is. I hang out in a tiny ghetto of orthodoxy in a corner of the Church of England, which, by a vote in a beloved parish PCC of mine nearby, tragically just got smaller. I actually believe fidelity to the orthodox Anglican faith is important.
We should not be afraid to hurt others' feelings when it comes to these matters, because if the Church Fathers had taken that approach then who knows if the Arian heresy had become mainstream, or Pelagius's renunciation of God's saving grace, or manifold other false doctrines.
Honesty and humility on all sides will heal this broken Body.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Honesty and humility on all sides will heal this broken Body.
...and of course, it's always much easier to be honest with other people.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I actually believe fidelity to the orthodox Anglican faith is important.
So do the people you are being so uncharitable about.
quote:
We should not be afraid to hurt others' feelings when it comes to these matters
But you should be afraid that you are not an example of Christ's love, that drives people away from the faith rather than calls them to it.
[ 14. March 2013, 19:42: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Strange, I was a member of the Church of England for 27 years and saw little sign of the "defilement" you describe, Indifferently. The gospel was preached in word and sacrament, the ancient creeds believed and recited. As far as I'm aware the teaching was orthodox. What did you have in mind? Is it just that the CofE isn't unpleasant enough to gay people and women for your liking or did you have something else in mind?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Business as usual then.
One or two thoughts that he may not be whiter than white as regards his dealing with the Argentinian military junta.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
... if Rome is to admit that she is not the 'one True Church' and renege on some of her doctrinal errors,...
Incoming! Pigs at twelve o'clock high!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I would further add, by way of being more judgmental, that you are not Saint Athanasius, Indifferently. You are not standing up for the True Faith, at great personal cost, against the whole world, and you have shown none of Athanasius' profound insight into the Gospel, deep erudition, or unfathomable holiness. You are sitting in the comfort of your home banging out hateful comments against fellow Christians who disagree with you, and not even to their faces no less.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
One or two thoughts that he may not be whiter than white as regards his dealing with the Argentinian military junta.
What Argentinian military junta? Unless they've had a coup in the last few minutes, they were gone thirty years ago.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Strange, I was a member of the Church of England for 27 years and saw little sign of the "defilement" you describe, Indifferently. The gospel was preached in word and sacrament, the ancient creeds believed and recited. As far as I'm aware the teaching was orthodox. What did you have in mind? Is it just that the CofE isn't unpleasant enough to gay people and women for your liking or did you have something else in mind?
You've just given away your agenda. I prefer fidelity to the plain words of Scripture to satisfying the preoccupations of the Sexual Revolution and the post-60s culture which has all but wiped out Christianity, Roman or Anglican or anything else, in the West.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
You've just given away your agenda.
He (or she, I don't really know) isn't the only one.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would further add, by way of being more judgmental, that you are not Saint Athanasius, Indifferently. You are not standing up for the True Faith, at great personal cost, against the whole world, and you have shown none of Athanasius' profound insight into the Gospel, deep erudition, or unfathomable holiness. You are sitting in the comfort of your home banging out hateful comments against fellow Christians who disagree with you, and not even to their faces no less.
There is nothing 'hateful' in my comments.
I am saying that if we are to seek reconciliation with the Church of Rome (which by the way is presumably what this Topic is about) we should avoid this moral abyss into which we have fallen, and (doctrinally at least) into which the Roman Catholic Church has not fallen, because it has had strong, orthodox leadership, whereas we have had weak, secularist, politically-correct leadership beholden to all the fashions of this unchristian age.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
This said, local Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans do much together, and also include non-liturgical denominations particularly United Church of Canada.
I'm glad you think we're pleasant, but non-liturgical? Have you seen my threads in Eccles?
Please retract, your assertion is offensive.
They are non-liturgical here, and I grew up in the United Church of Canada until age 15 and have attended every few years several. Nothing like Anglican. I suspect it is of regional variation, about which my comments may have been too regional assumptive. No offence was ever intended. I believe you're in Ontario and perhaps Toronto. Anglicanism is different there too.
The UCC has contributed by example and direct assistance to the Anglican Church's progression toward social justice and equality among genders and orientations, though we no longer share a hymnal. I suspect, at least in western Canada, some of the positive trends in the Anglican Church would not have occurred but for the trail blazed by the United Church. So again, no offence was ever intended, and unreserved apologies are offered to you.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
There is nothing 'hateful' in my comments.
See, that's why people see your call for the Church to be honest so completely ridiculous.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Anyone have any thoughts on the implications of this statement or what it might mean, both for the ordinariate and for relations between Rome and Anglicanism?
In practice, I suspect not very much. The ordinariate is a done deal, and isn't going away. His Holiness will I am sure pursue cordial relationships with Anglican leaders, just like Benedict XVI and John Paul II did, but he's not going to disavow Apostolicae Curae, or admit that we are a church. He is also, much to the shock of certain segments of the media, not going to come out in favour of married lesbian priests.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Strange, I was a member of the Church of England for 27 years and saw little sign of the "defilement" you describe, Indifferently. The gospel was preached in word and sacrament, the ancient creeds believed and recited. As far as I'm aware the teaching was orthodox. What did you have in mind? Is it just that the CofE isn't unpleasant enough to gay people and women for your liking or did you have something else in mind?
You've just given away your agenda. I prefer fidelity to the plain words of Scripture to satisfying the preoccupations of the Sexual Revolution and the post-60s culture which has all but wiped out Christianity, Roman or Anglican or anything else, in the West.
So, the former, then? I find the notion that Christianity is primarily about sex, or the lack of it, to be quite bizarre. Equally I find bizarre the idea that two men or two women wanting to commit themselves in the sight of God to spending the rest of their lives together, forsaking all others, has anything much to do with the promiscuity and casual sex one would normally think of when considering the term "sexual revolution".
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
One or two thoughts that he may not be whiter than white as regards his dealing with the Argentinian military junta.
What Argentinian military junta? Unless they've had a coup in the last few minutes, they were gone thirty years ago.
Having just returned from a month in Buenos Aires, I would note that it is still a topic of conversation-- with about 12,000 or more dead, and evidence still coming forth, I would not be surprised. Still, it will be interesting to see if the cause of the Bishop of La Rioja makes any headway.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
You've just given away your agenda. I prefer fidelity to the plain words of Scripture to satisfying the preoccupations of the Sexual Revolution and the post-60s culture which has all but wiped out Christianity, Roman or Anglican or anything else, in the West.
I know not many will thank me for saying this, but I'm afraid it is all very true and very sad IMO. You only have to look at all the empty pews and churches shutting down to see this - if you have eyes to see.
How on earth can we seriously talk about an "orthodoxy" which changes all the time to suit the ever changing culture of the times? What sort of "orthodoxy" has to make itself relevant to the people it serves?
Isn't it people who have to change, with the help of God - rather than the Church's message which has to change?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Church Times, among others, are running a story that the Anglican Bishop of Argentina reports:
"[the then Cardinal] called me to have breakfast with him one morning and told me very clearly that the Ordinariate was quite unnecessary, and that the Church needs us as Anglicans."
Anyone have any thoughts on the implications of this statement or what it might mean, both for the ordinariate and for relations between Rome and Anglicanism?
Two thoughts: (1) It is a mark of maturity to befriend someone who has a great deal in common, although not everything in common, and work together as far as possible, without assuming that the differences are not worth discussing and maintaining.
(2) Maybe the Roman Catholic Church needs Anglicans as Anglicans in the same way that chemists need test tubes: to observe what happens with an experimental mixture, specifically the ordination of women. I used to think that experience was clearly showing the experiment to be a failure, compared to the healthier condition of the Roman Catholic church as a control group. But lately I'm not so sure of that. The experiment isn't over yet.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Would that the Roman Catholic Church were healthier than the rest of us, but that is not the case. It shares Protestantism's pattern of growing well in the Third World, while shrinking at a pretty breath-taking rate in the West.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Isn't it people who have to change, with the help of God - rather than the Church's message which has to change?
Getting dead horsey I'm afraid, but no, the Church's message that love is supreme must not change. The Church must change wherever it has failed to live and teach that message, and for a long part of its history it has imposed a hurtful and loveless judgement on gay people, divorced people, women and many others.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Strange, I was a member of the Church of England for 27 years and saw little sign of the "defilement" you describe, Indifferently. The gospel was preached in word and sacrament, the ancient creeds believed and recited. As far as I'm aware the teaching was orthodox. What did you have in mind? Is it just that the CofE isn't unpleasant enough to gay people and women for your liking or did you have something else in mind?
You've just given away your agenda. I prefer fidelity to the plain words of Scripture to satisfying the preoccupations of the Sexual Revolution and the post-60s culture which has all but wiped out Christianity, Roman or Anglican or anything else, in the West.
And it looks to me like you've just given away your agenda, Indifferently,
[ 14. March 2013, 20:26: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
You've just given away your agenda. I prefer fidelity to the plain words of Scripture to satisfying the preoccupations of the Sexual Revolution and the post-60s culture which has all but wiped out Christianity, Roman or Anglican or anything else, in the West.
I know not many will thank me for saying this, but I'm afraid it is all very true and very sad IMO. You only have to look at all the empty pews and churches shutting down to see this - if you have eyes to see.
How on earth can we seriously talk about an "orthodoxy" which changes all the time to suit the ever changing culture of the times? What sort of "orthodoxy" has to make itself relevant to the people it serves?
Isn't it people who have to change, with the help of God - rather than the Church's message which has to change?
Yes. I think the question here is ultimately about authority: who is authoritative? It seems some Christians take more heed of Antonio Gramsci than they do Augustine. They have adapted and co-opted the fashions of this godless age and applied it to Christianity which, being a rather bad fit, has driven people out of the pews and into agnosticism and atheism. This is no coincidence.
St Vincent of Lerins advises, prudently:
"Let us hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all, for that is truly and properly Catholic."
Our Lord tells us to deny ourselves, take up our Cross, and follow him. Him. Where does he manifest himself? In his Church. Authority is vested in ecumenical councils, the wisdom of our Church Fathers, and the Holy Scriptures. It is only the last fifty years out of the two thousand year history of the Church (and the much longer history of Israel before it) that these fashions have overtaken our faith.
And yet, those of us on the same side as most of the Christians who have ever lived (and, globally, most alive today) are called bigots and reactionaries.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
In other words, Alogon, we should not think of the Roman Catholic Church (or Eastern Orthodox for that matter) as being "separatist" in the same way as the Free Presbyterian Church or the Exclusive Brethren.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
One or two thoughts that he may not be whiter than white as regards his dealing with the Argentinian military junta.
What Argentinian military junta? Unless they've had a coup in the last few minutes, they were gone thirty years ago.
Benedict XVI got it in the neck for being in the Hitler Youth 70-odd years ago. 30 years is barely just yesterday. Why should this Pope be treated any different.
I'm surprised he hasn't already been called to Hell for something, whether sexual, financial, strangling kittens or not being nasty enough about Rupert Murdoch.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
...It is only the last fifty years out of the two thousand year history of the Church (and the much longer history of Israel before it) that these fashions have overtaken our faith.
It is alarming how much has changed in my short lifetime - what will it be like by the time my life comes to an end? I've no idea.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
If you all you want to do is "tell it like it is" to all the defiled Anglicans, a blog would probably serve your purposes better.
[ 14. March 2013, 20:43: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
If you all you want to do is "tell it like it is" to all the defiled Anglicans, a blog would probably serve your purposes better.
As I have pointed out to you earlier in this thread, this topic is presumably about Anglican-Roman relations under the new pope, which we are entitled to be optimistic about. I simply stated a few caveats and home truths which both sides will have to accept. It has long been the case. I find relations with Roman Catholics interesting, and yes, it is divisive and sad that we are separated politically from one another in the Body of Christ, but that there is a way forward.
Let's not be too negative.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Let's not be too negative.
See, you can't call people defiled apostates and then complain that people are being negative. YOU are the one shutting down conversation because you can only spew hatred against people you disagree with.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Less sectarianism please.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Less sectarianism please.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
Alas, we are members of the same sect.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
If you all you want to do is "tell it like it is" to all the defiled Anglicans, a blog would probably serve your purposes better.
Indifferently is an anglican himself, so has a right to comment on what he feels is wrong with his own church (apologies if it is a 'her'.) I'm being more cautious about what I say for obvious reasons.
Anyway, back to the thread topic, it does seem a peculiar thing for the then Cardinal to say, despite the fact that I would guess Anglicans are far more orthodox in Argentina than in the UK and US/Canada. It is peculiar because I would have thought Anglicans and Roman Catholics had very different views on the nature of the Church.
Even so, there are many causes for which Catholics and Anglicans can work together, indeed should, all over the world. However, to identify both as comprising "the Church" seems rather uncatholic.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Rephrase, if you feel the need to comprehensively denigrate each other - do it in hell- not here.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Let's not be too negative.
See, you can't call people defiled apostates and then complain that people are being negative. YOU are the one shutting down conversation because you can only spew hatred against people you disagree with.
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair. The excellent Douglas Wilson wrote of his love for genuine Anglican faith, and contrasted it to what was largely on offer at the moment. Roman Catholics must be doing the same. The whole impetus for the Ordinariate is dissatisfaction with certain tendencies within the Anglican communion, which is on the brink of breaking up thanks to innovators in the Western countries.
The Pope can be a centre of unity, if what he says to Greg Venables remains his opinion. We have a great deal to work with. But until certain groups turn and repent, that is simply never going to happen. There are people who can remember Eastern Orthodox Christians being allowed to take communion in Anglican parishes in the mid-20th century. Does that happen these days? No. Which group has innovated and changed its doctrines? I'll give you a clue - it isn't them.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
...It is only the last fifty years out of the two thousand year history of the Church (and the much longer history of Israel before it) that these fashions have overtaken our faith.
It is alarming how much has changed in my short lifetime - what will it be like by the time my life comes to an end? I've no idea.
Yes, it has changed. Women wear pants, preachify and celebrate eucharist and dream of futures besides maybe be granted shoes to wear in the kitchen. And men and women don't get arrested and charged with criminal offences if they hold hands and love another man or woman. We are allowed to create barriers between sperms and eggs such that people can enjoy sex without fear and babies. First Nations people in Canada can leave Indian Reserves without having to show a pass. Women can go into a pub without a male escort. Priests now get charged if they fuck or suck a child.
Which part of this fools golden age did you want to retain? I opt for some of the music and some of the liturgy. But that's obtainable on the internet.
Churches in many places where they are thriving are refuges for the poor and the suffering. We in the west are neither poor nor suffering enough to have this affect us.
[ 14. March 2013, 21:06: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Indifferently, is there a particular point in history where you consider the Church of England to have been the beacon of orthodoxy you desire? Do you consider it to have been, at that time, totally unified and correct in its doctrines? And, lastly, do you have those doctrines in writing or do you infer them?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair.
I rather doubt it. Outsiders aren't looking at Anglicanism at all. They aren't looking at Roman Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Mormonism. Outsiders are living their lives--some of them quite happily--without any religion whatsoever. That's what makes them "outsiders". When we are in this beloved little backwater on the web that we call the Ship, it's easy to forget that.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair.
I rather doubt it. Outsiders aren't looking at Anglicanism at all. They aren't looking at Roman Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Mormonism. Outsiders are living their lives--some of them quite happily--without any religion whatsoever. That's what makes them "outsiders". When we are in this beloved little backwater on the web that we call the Ship, it's easy to forget that.
Well, some are looking, and they're mostly saying "why is the CofE so sexist and homophobic?" and "how can the supreme governor of the CofE be a woman but not any of her Bishops?"
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And hundreds of years ago, the Roman Catholics in Portugal, my husband's family, were Jewish and were told they would be killed, and so they became Roman Catholic. Much later, more near the time now, they became Anglicans and Baptists in Calcutta. They still didn't like the Roman Catholic ideas.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair.
I rather doubt it. Outsiders aren't looking at Anglicanism at all. They aren't looking at Roman Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Mormonism. Outsiders are living their lives--some of them quite happily--without any religion whatsoever. That's what makes them "outsiders". When we are in this beloved little backwater on the web that we call the Ship, it's easy to forget that.
And some of us who are insiders are quickly being made to feel that we should be outsiders.
ETA: that meant in general terms, not reflecting anyone in this conversation
[ 14. March 2013, 21:20: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
...It is only the last fifty years out of the two thousand year history of the Church (and the much longer history of Israel before it) that these fashions have overtaken our faith.
It is alarming how much has changed in my short lifetime - what will it be like by the time my life comes to an end? I've no idea.
Yes, it has changed. Women wear pants, preachify and celebrate eucharist and dream of futures besides maybe be granted shoes to wear in the kitchen. And men and women don't get arrested and charged with criminal offences if they hold hands and love another man or woman. We are allowed to create barriers between sperms and eggs such that people can enjoy sex without fear and babies. First Nations people in Canada can leave Indian Reserves without having to show a pass. Women can go into a pub without a male escort. Priests now get charged if they fuck or suck a child.
Which part of this fools golden age did you want to retain? I opt for some of the music and some of the liturgy. But that's obtainable on the internet.
Churches in many places where they are thriving are refuges for the poor and the suffering. We in the west are neither poor nor suffering enough to have this affect us.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
...Churches in many places where they are thriving are refuges for the poor and the suffering.
Yes, and these same churches would usually be far more orthodox than we are used to in the affluent West. Why is that?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair.
What a huge over-generalisation.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
MIND THE DEAD HORSES
quote:
Specifically: biblical inerrancy, homosexuality, the role of women in church and Christian households, creation and evolution, abortion, closed communion and bitching about church music.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kyzyl:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Outsiders are looking at Anglicanism in despair.
I rather doubt it. Outsiders aren't looking at Anglicanism at all. They aren't looking at Roman Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy, or even Mormonism. Outsiders are living their lives--some of them quite happily--without any religion whatsoever. That's what makes them "outsiders". When we are in this beloved little backwater on the web that we call the Ship, it's easy to forget that.
And some of us who are insiders are quickly being made to feel that we should be outsiders.
ETA: that meant in general terms, not reflecting anyone in this conversation
I totally agree with you there. As I said, my place in the C of E is pretty much a ghetto.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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