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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Vacation bible school music
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
Not sure where this one belongs.
It's planning time and if I go to the initial planning meeting I'll probably open my mouth (and get plopped on a work team as a result, the cost of opening one's mouth).
I'm thinking music. Last year they - I guess bought a package of a VBS theme/program - taught the kids a song that was unfamiliar that was part of the package. No one except kids in that class will ever have heard of the song. (A stuffed octopus supposedly taught the song.)
I found this on line. Ocho the octopus
This is probably the song and the glimpses of kids look like what I saw - a few doing the required motions, the rest sort of blank looks, but maybe that's because they were just learning the song? (I don't read faces well.)
I'm not fussing about the song itself - no worse than many others, but the kids can't go home and sing their new song with their parents or friends if the song is not known outside this VBS program.
Last weekend I got to sing at a Christian song fest and used most of my time slot to lead people in old sing-along songs - do lord remember me, down by the riverside, when the saints go marching in (they got up and march-danced around the room).
That made me think, why wouldn't it be a great idea to use VBS music sessions to teach the kids some of the singalong songs "everybody" knows. Songs they'll sing the rest of their life because they are part of the general Christian culture?
So I'm wondering if it's a great idea or a lousy one. (I don't know anything about kids.)
And if it's a great idea, what are a few "known throughout the culture" Christian songs that would appeal to 3 years old up to about age 11? They all do the same music.
(When I was a kid we sang the old hymns, but times have changed.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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lily pad
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# 11456
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Posted
We used to buy a VBS program that included the rights to copy the music - first cassettes and now cds. They were given to the children on the first day or as a take home gift. We had great reports of how families used them to sing in the car.
One day, we had the bright idea of making the cds earlier and using them as the ads for the VBS. Enough were copied for every family associated with the church and given out as invitations to VBS. This happened about two months before. It changed our VBS quite a bit. Instead of children being tentative in their singing, especially the youngest ones who can't read the lyrics yet, everyone was singing along very well. It was great fun.
I have always interspersed the packaged songs with standards. There are lots of dvds available these days with the lyrics and a well made video to go with the song. Personally, I think it is a great idea to use songs that they actually will have a chance of singing in worship later on.
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Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Belle Ringer
So I'm wondering if it's a great idea or a lousy one. (I don't know anything about kids.)
Its certainly a hell of a better idea than the garbage with the octopus..! ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Go with your gut feeling - When the Saints go marching in is good.
Alternatively, there were a couple of small for-kids works written in the 60s and 70s that might work if you have a week (I think you said a week?). They are the Daniel Jazz and the Jonah Man Jazz.
IMHO the Daniel is the best.
You could fit all sorts of other activities into it - making masks, other ways of telling the Daniel story, etc, etc
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Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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lily pad
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# 11456
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Posted
Don't violate copyright. Do check to see if you have a CCLI license or something similar.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I, too, have had good experience with the take-home CDs. Now that they're cheap and the copyright often comes w/ the curriculum, it's a really good option-- if the music is halfway decent (not always the case).
Belle, I think your idea of using the "tried & true" songs is a good one as long as it doesn't turn into yet another variation of the Worship Wars and My Music is Better than Your Music. But otherwise, a good idea. I don't know that soliciting suggestions here for the actual songs is the best route, though. What's "tried and true" in one setting will be new and maybe even culturally off-putting somewhere else. Both geographic and denominational differences will be at play. If you really want to sing songs their parents will know and be able to sing with them at home, I'd ask the parents for those suggestions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
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# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
Don't violate copyright. Do check to see if you have a CCLI license or something similar.
All the 'standard' licenses won't cover you for making a recording and distributing it (for that you're headed into the territory of contacting publishing companies directly) and doing that stuff is expensive even if you get all the licensing for free. The groups making these resource packages have an economy of scale though, they can reduce the cost of licensing by name-dropping their organisation and spread the remaining costs of licensing and production over a huge number of units sold.
The idea in the OP of mixing in some older content is good (don't completely ban new stuff, so long as it's good) but the logistics are difficult. The main problem I see is in deciding which "old favourites" are "part of the general Christian culture" because there's so much variety out there and the "general Christian culture" is very location-specific.
I come at this issue with a youth worship hat on, and I can say that the most chaotic difficult events to organise worship for are the regional united events. Even if the band and vocalists are just drawn from only three of the youth ministries (all the same denomination even) you still get huge variations in what is a normal song for one group but completely unknown to another, plus all the other groups who would be coming but not represented in the band for the event. Trying to work out a list that does not have an excessive amount of new content for any one group that's present at the event is not easy when there's so little commonality!
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
This is probably the song and the glimpses of kids look like what I saw - a few doing the required motions, the rest sort of blank looks, but maybe that's because they were just learning the song? (I don't read faces well.)
I come at this from a youth point of view but I have done enough kids ministry in the past to guess that the facial expressions look like bewilderment (caused by overstimulation) which is leading to disengagement. There's so much stuff going on and so many things to look at that even the youth volunteer with the camera can't decide where to focus!
Look at the setup (what you can see of it from the moving camera at least) and you'll see there are lots of problems...
1. The gyrating puppet that is well above head height and shoved away to the left.
2. The woman in yellow in the middle who is very large and standing very close to very small kids (i.e. have to look right up to see her face) and doesn't know the words (FAIL!) so she has to keep looking to the projected screen instead of being able to lead the kids.
3. The projector with the words off to the right, and the poor formatting of the slides.
4. The recorded sound is disembodied, it gives no clue as to where you should be looking.
5. Too many adults crowded into a too small space, which steals ownership of the event away from the kids.
6. It all boils down to there being no focal point.
My tips for doing better than that...
1. No puppets or other visual distractions during times of corporate praise and worship. This is a good opportunity to teach the kids that corporate praise is something that requires you to be fully present.
2. Step back a bit, and have a folder with the words printed on a music stand in front of you or projected onto the back wall of the venue.
3. Have the projector set up right next to you, and sharing the centre of the 'front' space equally. Also be aware of reading ability, with younger ones below about 7 you'll need to focus on songs that have an easily remembered chorus which non-readers can cope with.
4. Live sound! Definitely a microphone for vocals, even if you use a recorded backing track, so that you can actively teach and lead the songs (which is more than just singing them) and the kids can watch what you're doing. Live music from a keyboard (don't use a piano, too much of a visual barrier) or guitar is also better than recorded backing tracks if you're confident enough to do it and lead at the same time or have another person who can play while you lead the singing and actions.
5. Use a larger space than that, and keep all other adults not involved in leading the session behind all the kids at the back of the room. For those who have a really clingy kid with them, you have them take a spot at the back or side of the group of kids so that they can engage in the session together and encourage the kid to let go a little and be a part of the group.
6. Plan out your setup so it gives a clear clue as to where to look at any one time. Don't be afraid to have one spot for the singing times and another for the teaching times if the teaching times have things like dramas or puppets.
Finally, make sure the leaders running the event are well-coordinated and know what's going on and who needs to be where at each segment of the program so the different leaders aren't sandbagging each other to the detriment of everyone. This includes everyone getting breaks, kids ministry fails if there's no enthusiasm from the leaders (because the kids will follow suit) and worn out zombies don't do enthusiasm well!
[ 01. May 2013, 02:19: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
posted by Belle Ringer
So I'm wondering if it's a great idea or a lousy one. (I don't know anything about kids.)
Its certainly a hell of a better idea than the garbage with the octopus..!
Thanks, my first inclination was to put this thread in Hell and say what I thought about the octopus, but it's a church I've had some difficulties with and feared that might color my ability to evaluate what's going on.
(VBSs always need more adults, and people willing to lead music seem surprisingly rare these days so I promised to help with that this year.)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
4. The recorded sound is disembodied, it gives no clue as to where you should be looking.
This really intrigues me, and thanks for pointing it out. I know I can feel a bit distracted, confused is not quite the right word but it just isn't comfortable when the supposed source of the sound is in one direction but the sound is actually coming to my ears (via speakers) from a different direction. Is it human to turn to face the sound? But then you aren't facing the person who is doing the talking or singing!
Anyway, I thought it was just me.
So if a boom box is used it should be next to or behind the song leader, not at the side of the room, or if a pianist/guitarist (I'm trying to learn both so I can occasionally be useful) is accompanying they should be near the singer/song leader so people look one direction to see and hear what's going on? Seems like churches very often separate the two - organ in the back choir up front.
The bit about the octopus being confusing is helpful too but I think the adults who buy these packages have ideas of "cute, the kids will love it" that may be somewhat divorced from what kids actually love.
Like hand motion songs, lots of adults insist on hand motions because the kids are cute doing them, but I see more adults than kids doing them, and half the kids look embarrassed. Wouldn't dance movement be better? More natural, and let off some energy. No?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
The other thing with the octopus and "cute fun things for kids" is being sure that anything like that is directly tied to your main point. So much of what we do at church is entirely auditory oriented, making learning/worship difficult for visual and sensory learners. So, yes, adding something visual, something active is always a good idea. But... if you add that visual interest/ motor activity as a special "add-on"-- e.g. Timmy the Octopus begins the lesson with a funny skit that is only tangentally connected to the theme-- the kids will miss the point. They will remember/love Timmy the Octopus but that very attention-grabbing stunt will grab ALL the attention-- diverting it away from your main point. (Our church used to have an amazing team that did hilarious announcement videos-- which then became all anyone remembered, not the sermon, prayers, etc.) In the same way, we tend to do "silly songs" with lots of visuals or movement, then segue into "serious songs" that are on point-- but the kids will remember the silly ones. Visuals/movement is good, but should be as closely connected to your point as possible.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The other thing with the octopus and "cute fun things for kids" is being sure that anything like that is directly tied to your main point. -- e.g. Timmy the Octopus begins the lesson with a funny skit that is only tangentally connected to the theme-- the kids will miss the point.
Can adults more broadly connect things than kids can? Adults might see connection that's kids don't? hey started out the kids at gathering tables with some sea shells. We are hours inland, many have never been to the sea. Then in the undecorated sanctuary - no sea shells - the octopus claimed to come up from the ocean bottom to greet the kids. Then the song about going deep into God's love.
So to the packagers there was a deep ocean theme. Took me a while to figure that out but I have an excessively literal brain and wasn't understanding why an octopus talking to us, or why there were sea shells on the tables, that's not something to play with while waiting for intake to complete.
I spent my time wandering the church with a little girl who was totally disinterested in the octopus and song, or sitting with her on my lap. Which I guess is why they need extra adults. To help with the wanderers. Twelve little kids with two "adults" (youth workers) wasn't enough individual attention. But they hate to turn kids away who show up without pre-enrolling.
I hate to say anything because I have no experience with kids.
I suppose this isn't a purg topic, not sure where.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
Yeah, you have the whole issue of abstract vs. concrete thinking. The ocean there is a metaphor for "spiritual depth", which yes, adults and older kids will get but younger kids will totally not get because developmentally they're still literal thinkers. But I wouldn't want to be too curmudgeonly about it. There can be value in exposing them to metaphors and symbols and imagery even before they are old enough to "get" it. It plants a seed, a thought, and image, that will unfold over time. That's probably even more true with music-- which would be an argument for approach you're taking-- using music that can be sung at home not just the week of VBS, but over the years, becoming just one of those embedded images that may bear fruit a year or two or 10 later. And, let's face it, themes are fun. And that's OK too-- to just have fun with the kids. Just know that the younger ones may not "get" it and take a longer perspective.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Can I suggest that if the problem is whether the people who sell the material let you use the material after the programme has finished, go to a different provider. If their interest is in their copyright and the opportunity to rake in user fees, rather than children learning about the Christian faith and being encouraged to hold onto what they have learnt, don't go near them.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Tricky one that. The materials are probably priced so as to cover the cost of production (writers, musicians, artists, editors as well as printing and reproduction costs) if the copyright rules are observed. Significantly breaching the rules means (a) the publishers have to increase the unit price to cover their costs and/or (b) they decide that it is no longer affordable to produce this kind of material. Maybe there's a case for a discussion with the publishers about the need for CDs in advance for people to learn the music. Maybe a da could be reached.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
The ones I've seen haven't put any time limit on the copyright-- I'm not even sure what such a provision would look like. But maybe I'm just not reading the fine print. I have heard curriculum publishers mention distributing the CDs in advance before as publicity-- it seems like it would work to their advantage. These are curriculum publishers, not music labels-- they're trying to sell (rather expensive) VBS packages, not individual CDs, so the marketing paradigm is different.
[ 01. May 2013, 20:03: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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