|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Death of Geza Vermes
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Have just read of the death of the Jewish New Testament and Dead Sea Scroll scholar Geza Vermes. I first came across him in the late 80s when I was doing my RE A-Level. Though I didn't always agree with him, he was a huge influence on my thinking regarding the Historical Jesus and I enjoyed his books enormously. Some regard him as the best NT scholar of his generation and say that he did more than anyone else to make us take Jesus' Jewishness seriously again and to view him and his teachings in that context.
What are others views on the man, his conclusions and his contributons to NT research?
ttp://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/05/08/geza-vermes-scholar-of-christianity-and-judaism-1924-2013/
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
Never had much time for the geezer, naturally. For me he just confirms the danger of studying the scriptures outside the context of the Church and its faith, desperate to try and prove the faith of the Church wrong, a method much loved by modernists and those on the edge of apostasy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Isn't that what historical scholars do? Study figures outside a creedal context using all the evidence at their disposal? To only study Jesus with the confines of Othodox Christianity would prejudge the conclusions somewhat and ignore Jesus' whole social and religious context.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
I don't really understand your last point there and I don't believe anyone reads the scriptures outside of a particular context with its own a priori assumptions. In that respect Geza Vermes is no different. He clearly approaches the gospels with an agenda, albeit a purely Jewish one rather than a Christian one.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
And reading about a rabbi who understood the Torah very clearly is not allowed for a Jew?
Next thing will be to condemn Luther for removing his study of religion to "outside the context of the Church and its faith", followed by attacking the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury for daring to work outside the Orthodox view of faith.
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't really understand your last point there and I don't believe anyone reads the scriptures outside of a particular context with its own a priori assumptions. In that respect Geza Vermes is no different. He clearly approaches the gospels with an agenda, albeit a purely Jewish one rather than a Christian one.
You are correct to a point, but however, if taken to an extreme, it would mean that we can't do anything remotely scholarly or academic.
I don't know what a "Jewish agenda" or a "Christian" agenda means. Geza is not a Christian and of course, he's not going to read the Bible through the lens of faith. That's the job of the Church, not the job of the academy. However, I dare suggest that the Church not ignore the Academy, otherwise we end up preaching young earth creationism and bringing mockery to our faith by the world.
Vermes to my mind has always been respectful to Christians. I read his trilogy on the Nativity, Passion and Resurrection stories last year. If I can remember, he actually makes some conclusions that are amenable to Christian faith. In his section on the Resurrection, he discredits most of the secular arguments against it (Someone changed the body, Jesus survived the cross, etc). Now I disagree with his conclusion that the Resurrection is Jesus "risen in the hearts of men." But fair disagreement is not antithetical to respect.
As Charles Gore once wrote, a faith fearful of scholarly inquiry is an insecure faith that will not speak well to the world.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
It is also worth bearing in mind that Vermes was a Catholic Priest prior to re-embracing his Judaism, so hasn't always studied Jesus outside the Christian faith. It is one thing to disagree with his methodology or conclusions - some very good biblical scholars have done so, but given the evidence he presents e.g. regarding parallels with other charismatic Rabbis, or data from 1st century Judaism which had been largely ignored, I don't think he can be dismissed as simply not being a scholar within the church.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
ISTM that Christians view the Hebrew scriptures (AKA the Old Testament) through their own lenses all the time.
Breaking news: people study other belief systems, and come up with their own interpretations. News at 11.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
ISTM that Christians view the Hebrew scriptures (AKA the Old Testament) through their own lenses all the time.
Yes, because the scriptures belong to the Church. They only way to read the OT properly is to look for Christ and the Church.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Let's try this again: HEBREW scriptures. Jewish scriptures.
Any Christian interpretation is therefore from the outside. We don't own the Torah, nor any of the rest of it.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Belong? I'm pretty sure most would disagree. Jews would certainly dispute the claim that the Hebrew scriptures belong to the Church and would argue that in claiming them for their own, the Church has engaged in a fair amount of misunderstanding along the way.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Let's try this again: HEBREW scriptures. Jewish scriptures.
Any Christian interpretation is therefore from the outside. We don't own the Torah, nor any of the rest of it.
The Church has always believed that the scriptures as a whole belong to the Church, but then that depends upon what view one has of the Church, naturally.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Belong? I'm pretty sure most would disagree. Jews would certainly dispute the claim that the Hebrew scriptures belong to the Church and would argue that in claiming them for their own, the Church has engaged in a fair amount of misunderstanding along the way.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
Belong? I'm pretty sure most would disagree. Jews would certainly dispute the claim that the Hebrew scriptures belong to the Church and would argue that in claiming them for their own, the Church has engaged in a fair amount of misunderstanding along the way.
As I said to Golden Key, it depends upon how one views the Church, I guess, whether one believes the Church was born at Pentecost of whether one believes the Church has existed since the foundation of the world.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Ad Orientem--
Yes, but that's a Christian belief about Jewish scriptures. Christians didn't write them. Christians didn't have anything to do with them.
I'm very aware of the interplay between the OT and NT. But that's a CHRISTIAN idea, however true it may be.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
I don't know much about Geza Vermes even though I've always been intrigued by alternative takes on both OT and NT.
The Dead-sea scrolls are naturally going to be of interest to some exploring Christianity, if only for the simple fact of wanting to know why they were rejected .
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
Plus much of what Vermes wrote concentrated on the Judaism at the time of Jesus - in terms of beliefs, language (e.g. the Aramaic idioms 'son of man' and 'son of God) and other contemporary historical figures who described in similar terms rather than simply studying the NT documents themselves.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ad Orientem--
Yes, but that's a Christian belief about Jewish scriptures. Christians didn't write them. Christians didn't have anything to do with them.
I'm very aware of the interplay between the OT and NT. But that's a CHRISTIAN idea, however true it may be.
But my point is they aren't the "Jewish" scriptures even if, as we believe, they were written by people of the Hebrew race.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Pardon my Yiddish (coming as it does from a Gentile girl), but oy vey, Ad Orientem!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Pardon my Yiddish (coming as it does from a Gentile girl), but oy vey, Ad Orientem!
Enough already!!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
I don't know what "oy vey" means. You'll have to explain that to me.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
He was a great scholar (even if I did disagree with some of his conclusions).
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) May he rest in peace
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
He was a great scholar (even if I did disagree with some of his conclusions).
May he rest in peace
Absolutely. Perhaps him and Jesus are having a good old chat about some of his conclusions.......
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't know what "oy vey" means. You'll have to explain that to me.
Wikipedia on "oy vey".
Wikipedian comparison of Christianity and Judaism. Especially note the "Sacred Texts" section.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I don't know what "oy vey" means. You'll have to explain that to me.
It's normally used as an expression of exasperation or dismay.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
But my point is they aren't the "Jewish" scriptures even if, as we believe, they were written by people of the Hebrew race.
Hmmm, I am feeling less polite than Golden Key, so I'll say it more plainly:That statement is rubbish. Next you will claim Jesus was not Jewish.
Documents will be studied and not only by adherents, it is bizarre and cultish to suggest otherwise. And non-believers will not believe religious claims contained therin, shocking as that may be.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
lilBuddha--
Yes, I was dancing around the "Jesus was Jewish, you know" question.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism have each thought themselves the legitimate successor to Second Temple Judaism since Day 1, and each has its reasons. Christianity's case rests upon their accepting the Jewish Messiah where the other group rejected him. Rabbinic Judaism's case rests upon the Christians being a small minority of 1st century Jews, Rabbinicism being up and running before this Jesus guy came along, Jesus not actually being the Messiah (a major sticking point as you know), plus the fact that Christianity early on morphed into a gentile movement/group.
The Old Testament/ Hebrew Scriptures/ Tanach was not actually written by Rabbis, and predates both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity. As such who "owns" them is part of the successor question.
At present the fashion is for Christians to cede the Rabbinic argument. This is a fairly new position for the church to take, historically-wise-speaking, and it probably would behoove its adherents not to suppose it's tautologically obvious, or that its counterpart is prima facie ridiculous.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
But my point is they aren't the "Jewish" scriptures even if, as we believe, they were written by people of the Hebrew race.
Hmmm, I am feeling less polite than Golden Key, so I'll say it more plainly:That statement is rubbish. Next you will claim Jesus was not Jewish.
Documents will be studied and not only by adherents, it is bizarre and cultish to suggest otherwise. And non-believers will not believe religious claims contained therin, shocking as that may be.
Eh? If, as I believe, the Church has existed since the foundation of the world (the true Israel of God), then the OT is not something Christians have borrowed from the Jews but written by the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit and as such belongs to the Church. This is what the Church has always believed. If you believe otherwise, that the OT are the Jewish scriptures then, quite frankly, Christians have no right to use them.
[ 12. May 2013, 14:21: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
AO, I can understand why you might believe that if you were Jewish and happened to be a Christian; but of you are a Gentile, then it seems to me that - as Saint Paul said once - you are grafted in.
I'm sorry to hear of Geza's death, he was someone I always read with great interest and even though he was coming from a different place and maybe even went to different conclusions, I still felt better enlightened and informed for reading him.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Eh? If, as I believe, the Church has existed since the foundation of the world (the true Israel of God), then the OT is not something Christians have borrowed from the Jews but written by the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit and as such belongs to the Church. This is what the Church has always believed. If you believe otherwise, that the OT are the Jewish scriptures then, quite frankly, Christians have no right to use them.
As I have already said, much of Vermes' studies focused on the Judaism of Jesus' time and the way this can help us understand the type of Jew Jesus was and the way various titles and sayings might have been understood, so in a way, who are heirs to the Hebrew Bible is a bit of a red herring. However, your post raises an interesting point, if as you say the scriptures are Jewish, then Christians have no right to use them, what about if they are Christian? Can Jews use them?
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Never had much time for the geezer, naturally. For me he just confirms the danger of studying the scriptures outside the context of the Church and its faith, desperate to try and prove the faith of the Church wrong, a method much loved by modernists and those on the edge of apostasy.
Never heard of the guy but, from others’ comments, I suspect that he was too sensible to believe that he could “prove the faith of the church wrong”.
The problem is not that the faith of the church can be proven wrong it, it can’t. What a scholar who takes a neutral view can do is demonstrate that the church’s faith is extremely likely to be wrong – then one, consciously or otherwise, chooses faith (of whichever variety best meets ones needs} or non-faith.
--------------------
The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If, as I believe, the Church has existed since the foundation of the world (the true Israel of God), then the OT is not something Christians have borrowed from the Jews but written by the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit and as such belongs to the Church. This is what the Church has always believed. If you believe otherwise, that the OT are the Jewish scriptures then, quite frankly, Christians have no right to use them.
I guess it's just me, but there seems something vaguely predatorily capitalist in that view.
BTW re "existing since the foundation of the world" -- according to that other Abrahamic religion, the Qur'an is what has existed from the beginning of time, and the later Tanakh and Christian scriptures are just imperfect reflections. (Yes, i'm just stirring up the pot a little )
[ 13. May 2013, 03:59: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I don't think I've ever before heard the idea that the Church existed before the foundation of the world. Jesus/Logos, the plan of salvation, yes.
The view of the OT that I'm used to is that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, of all the good things that are hinted at in the OT. But God still chose the Jewish people, and the Hebrew scriptures are a record of their interactions. They shouldn't be written off.
I've heard a line (source unknown) to the effect that when Jesus come back, Jews will say "Welcome, Messiah!", and Christians will say "Welcome back!"
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
That last part I find interesting and extremely problematic. It suggests that the Jews have no need to convert. This probably deserves another thread though.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
If, as I believe, the Church has existed since the foundation of the world (the true Israel of God), then the OT is not something Christians have borrowed from the Jews but written by the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit and as such belongs to the Church. This is what the Church has always believed. If you believe otherwise, that the OT are the Jewish scriptures then, quite frankly, Christians have no right to use them.
I guess it's just me, but there seems something vaguely predatorily capitalist in that view.
BTW re "existing since the foundation of the world" -- according to that other Abrahamic religion, the Qur'an is what has existed from the beginning of time, and the later Tanakh and Christian scriptures are just imperfect reflections. (Yes, i'm just stirring up the pot a little )
Eh? A rather odd reply. I never claimed that the scriptures existed since the foundation of the world but the Church, first in the foreknowledge of God (those whom he foreknew) and then all those who have walk in the ways of God since Adam and Eve.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm very aware of the interplay between the OT and NT. But that's a CHRISTIAN idea, however true it may be. But my point is they aren't the "Jewish" scriptures even if, as we believe, they were written by people of the Hebrew race.
What arrogant nonsense. The Torah was not work for hire planned for the export trade. It was written by Jews for Jews.
[ 13. May 2013, 05:58: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
At present the fashion is for Christians to cede the Rabbinic argument.
I think it's fashionable to claim to cede to the Rabbinic argument without actually allowing it to make any difference to the way one reads the Scriptures.
ISTM that if one really believed the Jews are the true custodians of the Old Testament, one would be obliged to study it in the light of the Talmud ...
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
FWIW, I'm not even making a rabbinic argument. I'm just saying that those scriptures were written by Jews, for Jews--no matter how you interpret them after that.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
FWIW, I'm not even making a rabbinic argument. I'm just saying that those scriptures were written by Jews, for Jews--no matter how you interpret them after that.
Yes, very true, although a theological argument might be made that the Inspirer of those who did the actual writing might have had further intentions for those writings beyond those envisaged at the time by those writers.
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
At present the fashion is for Christians to cede the Rabbinic argument.
I think it's fashionable to claim to cede to the Rabbinic argument without actually allowing it to make any difference to the way one reads the Scriptures.
Point taken.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
FWIW, I'm not even making a rabbinic argument. I'm just saying that those scriptures were written by Jews, for Jews--no matter how you interpret them after that.
Yes, very true, although a theological argument might be made that the Inspirer of those who did the actual writing might have had further intentions for those writings beyond those envisaged at the time by those writers.
In a similar fashion there might be further intentions for those writings past the those of the church founded at the beginning of time. I'm being reminded of the movie "The Producers".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
