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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: There is too little Wonder
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Yesterday I was driving in the rain, thinking mostly about how wet I was going to get going into the grocery store.
Then it occurred to me that I live in a world where water is purified by evaporation, driven hundreds of miles by winds that seem to come out of nowhere, and then released on a landscape that needs that water to sustain life. All of that happens without us doing anything.
That same system can also cause the pitiless demons straight out of Hell known as tornadoes.
It is fantastic, miraculous and complex beyond our wildest imaginations and it is happening all around us all the time. And yet when it rains all we think about is are our windshield wiper in need of a change.
I think if we saw the world that God created for us as the miracle it is we would have more respect for it. We might even be more willing to see God here with us instead of locked away in a church and only let out on Sundays.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
Yes! And also thoughts of the narrow parameters of climate which sustain life, and how those parameters have been maintained for the ages which have brought us to where we are now. But then, how the Kepler project suggests there may be two billion earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. The potential fecundity of creation.
Just thinking!
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
You're on to something on all edges of what you posted.
We have made the awesome mundane or even something to dismiss. You were driving. A car allows you to travel 100 km or more in a mere hour. Maybe you were listening to the radio, where somehow the voice and music are produced 100s of km away and somehow get through the air to your car radio.
On the natural side, we presume the blue of the sky and green of the plants (unless it's the grey, brown and black of human construction). Everything about the world is truly wonder as you note. The destruction of it is easily where my mind goes.
We assume that it will all be there and work for us, whether we built it or it's part of the environment. I think you're close to naming some mental condition, or social condition.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I refer you to Psalm 8 which could be sub titled "the ppsalm of wonder" It also points to the fact that God is behind all the wonder he created. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The loss of wonder is often a victim of the need to be perceived as adult. IMO, at least.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
It's arguable that "adulthood", as perceived, is at least as much a matter of relinquishing truth, as it is of accommodating reality.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Tortuf, you're going to love this-- at one school I worked at, I would come into the playground early to scrawl "power words" on the concrete. One of my favorites was "Wonder." Just to make the kids, you know, wonder.
There is innocent wonder as a child, there is a point when you become an adult, need to lose your innocence, and have to realize all is not wonderful, but yes--if you are going to have a realistic view of the world, you cannot do so if you ignore those things around you that are wonderful, and acknowledge that they are just as meaningful and truthful as the harsh things.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
I do not believe there is an intrinsic need of adults to lose their sense of wonder. We all do as we learn how things work, and what is a fable versus real. That does not mean we ought to lose a sense of wonder about what is real.
Typing on my computer I am communicating with people all over the world because a stream of electrons have been coaxed into being excited in very specific ways to bring my communication to computers anywhere in the world. As I am typing on what I perceive to be hard surfaced keys, I am actually typing on a matrix of carbon atoms that are held together with the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force and electrical charges. God only knows how the atoms are stuck to each other.
And yes, my fingers are a wonder to behold as well. There are a bunch of systems holding them together, making them move, feeding them energy, cleaning out the garbage, repairing issues, sending tactile feedback, and protecting them from harm. And I take this kinda stuff for granted. Why?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm 60 next year and just yesterday noticed that walking up a hill is completely different from walking down it. I mean in every way. The sky, the light, the wheat glowing on the way down only if one is facing forward with the sun ahead. Walking backwards down is optically the same as walking up. The wheat doesn't glow. And today we couldn't reproduce the experience on the same path. Because we were four hours earlier in the day. All due to simple physics. Wonderful.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Never mind aeroplanes and rocket engineering*, I'm in awe at how bridges do their job.
*Rocket science is simple. Rocket engineering is something else.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The combination of conditions that have allowed life to flourish on the Earth on which we stand are so infinitesimally small it makes our very existence miraculous .
The combination of co-incidences that have allowed us , modern humans , to challenge the laws of nature with our powers of evaluation and technology could be entirely unique in the whole of the Cosmos.
Yet we live out the majority of our lives focused on trivia and experiencing small ripples of excitement against a backdrop of the seemingly mundane .
I have no idea as to why this should be either.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Tortuf, you're going to love this-- at one school I worked at, I would come into the playground early to scrawl "power words" on the concrete. One of my favorites was "Wonder." Just to make the kids, you know, wonder.
There is innocent wonder as a child, there is a point when you become an adult, need to lose your innocence, and have to realize all is not wonderful, but yes--if you are going to have a realistic view of the world, you cannot do so if you ignore those things around you that are wonderful, and acknowledge that they are just as meaningful and truthful as the harsh things.
And yet if we view innocence not as a naivete to be lost but a virtue to be gained, then regaining our sense of wonder can be part of that process.
The narrative we've inherited in the West is that in the "scientific" age, we have no more need of the supernatural to explain things. We know there aren't spirits in trees. To really "understand" something, we dissect it. In the West, you can't understand, e.g., a flower without picking it, and cutting it apart. In other words, killing it. Other ways of thinking are possible, though. Other cultures would say you can't know or understand the flower if you pick it, because you've removed it from its environment and ended its natural life. In our "scientific" view, where everything around us is subject to being "understood" isolated on a slide under a microscope in the lab, everything around us becomes commodity. It has no integrity of its own, but only as we name it and use it. Whatever leads us to wonder, we can no longer exploit.
Reclaiming our sense of wonder is also reclaiming the recognition that creation, rather than being a commodity, bears the character of a gift.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am a very amateur watercolourist. The thing about water colour is that you have no white paint, the only way to paint white is not to paint that area of paper. Thus pale colours are seen only through creating darker ones.
Do we need the dark to see the light?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Perhaps WE are the dark. That we approach-avoid light.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I do not believe there is an intrinsic need of adults to lose their sense of wonder. We all do as we learn how things work, and what is a fable versus real. That does not mean we ought to lose a sense of wonder about what is real.
It's funny, I was thinking about this very thing yesterday - specifically the 'losing a sense of wonder as we learn how things work' bit. I think this is behind some people's objections to enquiring too closely into things, whether they be the nature of the Trininty or the nature of the atom - it 'destroys the marvel of it'. Well, there must be two kinds of people out there. For me, knowing HOW things work often increases, rather than decreases, the wonder of them.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Crazy Cat Lady
Shipmate
# 17616
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Posted
I think when you are Art trained some of that wonder comes back, as you are taught to see the world as if with new eyes.
The upshot of all this, is simply that I feel I learn more about God in the world around me, than I ever do in any printed book
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'They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me!"
Nathaniel Lee
Posts: 52 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In the TEC 1979 Book of Common Prayer, there is a prayer said immediately after baptisms. It has a sentence which I love. quote:
Give them an inquiring and discerning heart, the courage to will and to persevere, a spirit to know and love you, and the gift of joy and wonder in all your works.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
Everything is gobsmackingly weird and wonderful. From the vastness and diversity of the universe, to the tap I can hear dripping in the kitchen. We lose it in the day by day, minute by minute business of living. It can grieve me, I've lived now the greater part of my life, how much of that have I spent appreciating the extraordinariness of it all?
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I do not believe there is an intrinsic need of adults to lose their sense of wonder. We all do as we learn how things work, and what is a fable versus real. That does not mean we ought to lose a sense of wonder about what is real.
It's funny, I was thinking about this very thing yesterday - specifically the 'losing a sense of wonder as we learn how things work' bit. I think this is behind some people's objections to enquiring too closely into things, whether they be the nature of the Trininty or the nature of the atom - it 'destroys the marvel of it'. Well, there must be two kinds of people out there. For me, knowing HOW things work often increases, rather than decreases, the wonder of them.
I dunno-- the more I learn who things work, the more fascinating the world seems. every real question usually leads to more questions.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Boredom is from God, ennui from the devil.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I do not believe there is an intrinsic need of adults to lose their sense of wonder. We all do as we learn how things work, and what is a fable versus real. That does not mean we ought to lose a sense of wonder about what is real.
It's funny, I was thinking about this very thing yesterday - specifically the 'losing a sense of wonder as we learn how things work' bit. I think this is behind some people's objections to enquiring too closely into things, whether they be the nature of the Trininty or the nature of the atom - it 'destroys the marvel of it'. Well, there must be two kinds of people out there. For me, knowing HOW things work often increases, rather than decreases, the wonder of them.
I dunno-- the more I learn who things work, the more fascinating the world seems. every real question usually leads to more questions.
Er - yes. This is what I was saying.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Boredom is from God, ennui from the devil.
The devil's French? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
I'm one of those people for whom science actually switches off the wonder. Because the wonder isn't in the thing, but in the perception. It's like Martin PC Not's wheat - I'd suggest, Martin, that it wasn't the physics that meant the wheat didn't glow, but you. Thomas Traherne saw wheat like you did, and knew nothing of the physics. It wasn't physics or biology that made Gerard Manley Hopkins babble in perfectly-worded incoherence about the dapple-dawn-drawn falcon, but the way it stirred his heart.
quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Cat Lady:
I think when you are Art trained some of that wonder comes back, as you are taught to see the world as if with new eyes.
Yes. For me that's been the main point of learning to be an artist - not the doing, but the seeing. And the seeing is the wonder.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm one of those people for whom science actually switches off the wonder.
People have this odd idea that all wonder must spring forth at the same time from the same thing in all thinkable ways, or something is hindering the wonder. Well, no. Wonder usually comes through a channel, and other stuff then mostly disrupts this channel. If someone is talking to you about the proton-proton chain reaction while you are trying to take in the sunset, then it is perfectly reasonable to tell them to shut up (for a while). Likewise, if you are about to understand the proton-proton chain reaction and leap to your intellectual "eureka" moment, then (somewhat ironically) the best place for that might be a quiet office lit only by neon light. And if you want to be moved deeply by a poem about a sunset, then probably both the proton-proton chain reaction equations and an actual sunset would get in the way of savouring these words. (*)
Perhaps that's a big part of the beatific vision, being able to wonder holistically. But for now my advantage as a scientist is not that my knowledge of nuclear physics somehow improves my perception of sunsets, or enjoyment of poetry about sunsets. Rather, I can appreciate sunsets, and poetry about them, but I can also appreciate the nuclear physics of the sun. I have an added perspective on the wonders of the sun. But I cannot see the sun but in one wonderful perspective at a time.
(*) One's appreciation of a sunset perhaps can be enhanced by reading a poem about a sunset. But I think that this is mostly a sequence of the mind's focus, in which one part enhances the next in a subtle flow. And this is different from integrating for example nature's sounds with the visuals from the sun into one experience. We have genuine multimodal perception, but are rubbish at paying attention to multiple things...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Adeodatus
But does the wonder without the knowledge that there is a physical, chemical make-up become a delusion? As soon as anyone thinks there is a non-natural, non-scientific explanation, for it, (even if that isn't known, or might not be known for a long time), then it becomes a delusion, I think.
In any case, we humans have evolved with the ability to wonder and that must have been a very strong and vital survival trait.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
But does the wonder without the knowledge that there is a physical, chemical make-up become a delusion?
I don't think so, because there's nothing propositional about wonder. If a person of faith is moved to wonder, and then moved to praise God, then I thing however closely the one follows after the other, those are quite different things. Also, I can wonder at a great work of fiction, but that doesn't mean I hold it to be propositionally true. (Part of my wonder might be about the fact that it tells truth, but that's something very different.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't think so, because there's nothing propositional about wonder. If a person of faith is moved to wonder, and then moved to praise God, then I thing however closely the one follows after the other, those are quite different things.
Thank you; interesting. A sort of separation between wonder and worship; yes, I think I can see that.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The more I learn about the human body the more amazed I am by it. So many parts I didn't know existed, processes going on I never thought about, so tolerant of abuses we do to it (to a point, nothing can take total abuse).
The interactivity/interdependency of nature is amazing, too. I have a new garden, 3 tomato plant and two cucumber plants, they put up flowers, flying things come and feed on the flowers and in the process create fruit for me. Amazing.
I think heaven has to last forever because it will take that long to get to know and be amazed by all that God has made. And that's just here, who knows what God has made elsewhere or will make?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
A pond near Concord MA once inspired some more than decent wonder, as I recall, but I recently looked it up on some map and decided it wasn't worth my time to go and paddle there.
Sigh.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
We definitely should have more Wonder.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crazy Cat Lady
Shipmate
# 17616
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Posted
Perhaps there should be a 'Wonder and Awe' thread where people can list the amazing things they encounter everyday
Might get people to be more aware
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'They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me!"
Nathaniel Lee
Posts: 52 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: As soon as anyone thinks there is a non-natural, non-scientific explanation, for it, (even if that isn't known, or might not be known for a long time), then it becomes a delusion, I think.
Why does something become a delusion if there is a non-scientific explanation for it?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Because Susan Doris has the delusion that science can answer all questions.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I do not believe there is an intrinsic need of adults to lose their sense of wonder. We all do as we learn how things work, and what is a fable versus real. That does not mean we ought to lose a sense of wonder about what is real.
It's funny, I was thinking about this very thing yesterday - specifically the 'losing a sense of wonder as we learn how things work' bit. I think this is behind some people's objections to enquiring too closely into things, whether they be the nature of the Trininty or the nature of the atom - it 'destroys the marvel of it'. Well, there must be two kinds of people out there. For me, knowing HOW things work often increases, rather than decreases, the wonder of them.
I dunno-- the more I learn who things work, the more fascinating the world seems. every real question usually leads to more questions.
Er - yes. This is what I was saying.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Not only that, but I quoted it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: As soon as anyone thinks there is a non-natural, non-scientific explanation, for it, (even if that isn't known, or might not be known for a long time), then it becomes a delusion, I think.
Why does something become a delusion if there is a non-scientific explanation for it?
What non-natural/scientific answer would there be?
And I was thinking really in terms of if all things that we wonder at are considered to be inseparable from a 'that's God' association, then that is a delusion; because, as you know, I am as certain as I can be that God is simply a human idea.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Because Susan Doris has the delusion that science can answer all questions.
No, no delusions here!! Having learnt how Science has solved so many questions up to the present time, I think it is a very reasonable assumption that they will go on finding non-God/god/s answers to life's unanswered questions!
They have, I am very confident, and delighted to say, found out how to repair hearts!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
They have, I am very confident, and delighted to say, found out how to repair hearts!
I admire your faith in what has yet to be proved. Irrational as that faith clearly must be according to your own creed.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: What non-natural/scientific answer would there be?
Now I'm the one who's wondering: do you really not see the contradiction in your position?
Your claim is "Everything can be explained by science."
Your proof for this claim is "What other answer would there be?"
That's not a very scientific proof. In fact, it is a bit of a circular argument.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Usually, in order to get me to learn anything the least bit scientific you have to sneak it inside a novel. That's what Barbara Kingsolver has done in Flight Behavior. Now I know all about the Monarch butterfly and it's pretty darn wonderful.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: What non-natural/scientific answer would there be?
Now I'm the one who's wondering: do you really not see the contradiction in your position?
Your claim is "Everything can be explained by science."
Your proof for this claim is "What other answer would there be?"
That's not a very scientific proof. In fact, it is a bit of a circular argument.
Yes, science cannot answer that question: 'what non-natural/scientific answer would there be?'.
It cannot answer this as it is a kind of philosophical question. Thus, 'science can explain everything' is not a scientific claim, but a claim made about science.
Thus, scientism seems to falsify itself. However, it tends to be accepted by dogmatists.
[ 04. June 2013, 11:07: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
They have, I am very confident, and delighted to say, found out how to repair hearts!
I admire your faith in what has yet to be proved. Irrational as that faith clearly must be according to your own creed.
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you here. I should have been more specific. The success in heart surgery these days is evident, and I don't think I am being irrational in having faith in it!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: What non-natural/scientific answer would there be?
Now I'm the one who's wondering: do you really not see the contradiction in your position?
Oh dear! It seems that, in trying not to be too wordy, I haven't used enough words! My question was posed so that perhaps you would give me your answer, whichI thought might be with an 'isn't it wonderful what God can do' theme, and I can assure you I would be interested to hear what you thought about this. Maybe I should know already and apologise for not remembering !
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Your claim is "Everything can be explained by science."
Not 'can be' at present, but probably 'will be eventually' (although there will still be other questions to take future people on into further study). I think it is logical to think that.
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Your proof for this claim is "What other answer would there be?"
That's not a proof, although it seems it came across as such; it's a question as I'm always interested in what people say here, even if I know I'll disagree!Please see above.
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That's not a very scientific proof. In fact, it is a bit of a circular argument.
If my words here make me sound even more unclear, then just pat me gently on the shoulder and I'll go and sit down with a nice cup of tea!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
SusanDoris: Not 'can be' at present, but probably 'will be eventually' (although there will still be other questions to take future people on into further study).
But do you admit that 'Everything will be explained by science eventually' is a claim for which you don't have scientific proof?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
SusanDoris: Not 'can be' at present, but probably 'will be eventually' (although there will still be other questions to take future people on into further study).
But do you admit that 'Everything will be explained by science eventually' is a claim for which you don't have scientific proof?
I'd suggest "Science will continue to find answers to the questions it's paid to ask."
But I really do wish scientists would get over the idea that what they do is a source of wonder, or entitles them to be treated as cultural heroes. It really isn't, and it really doesn't - not in everyone's eyes, at least.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm one of those people for whom science actually switches off the wonder.
I'm the other way. Scientific explanations for complicated things fill me with a sense of awe and delight at the way man can use his wonderful faculties to illuminate the world he perceives with the beautiful light of truth.
Beats mythology and fairy tales hands down.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm one of those people for whom science actually switches off the wonder.
I'm the other way. Scientific explanations for complicated things fill me with a sense of awe and delight at the way man can use his wonderful faculties to illuminate the world he perceives with the beautiful light of truth.
Beats mythology and fairy tales hands down.
You'd like the T-shirt I saw at Greenbelt the other year:
"Science too hard? Try religion!"
Far too often superficial understandings of religion and its relationship to science make that slogan sadly true.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Beats mythology and fairy tales hands down.
For you. I happen to be very interested, excited, and awe-inspired by mythology and fairytales.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I like both.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Adeodatus: But I really do wish scientists would get over the idea that what they do is a source of wonder, or entitles them to be treated as cultural heroes. It really isn't, and it really doesn't - not in everyone's eyes, at least.
It does in mine. Last week, a rock 1.7 miles wide passed 3.6 million miles from Earth. Scientists discovered that this rock has a moon, another rock 2000 feet across circling the bigger one. I think that's awesome!
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm one of those people for whom science actually switches off the wonder.
I'm the other way. Scientific explanations for complicated things fill me with a sense of awe and delight at the way man can use his wonderful faculties to illuminate the world he perceives with the beautiful light of truth.
Beats mythology and fairy tales hands down.
You'd like the T-shirt I saw at Greenbelt the other year:
"Science too hard? Try religion!"
Far too often superficial understandings of religion and its relationship to science make that slogan sadly true.
"Religion too hard? Never mind, try some idiotic and childish straw men about it."
Wouldn't fit really.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Yorick: Scientific explanations for complicated things fill me with a sense of awe and delight at the way man can use his wonderful faculties to illuminate the world he perceives with the beautiful light of truth.
These discoveries fill me with awe, both with the capabilities of man to be able to perceive and explain these things, as with the workings of Nature itself.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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