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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: It's Ramadan don't you know...
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
Well, at least, it will be very soon. In case you didn't know,
Channel 4 will be providing a handy reminder
Channel 4 itself describes the broadcast of the daily call to prayer as "a deliberately provocative act", and rather predictably, it's got some people foaming at the mouth, with Channel 4's point that "Islam is one of the few religions flourishing in the UK" adding further fuel to the fire for the morally outraged/disgusted of Tunbridge Wells/outright nutters/others. Some pieces claim it's clearly aimed at proselytism, which seems rather o.t.t to me, not least since I don't watch very much Channel 4 anyway.....
So, should anybody be getting agitated about it, and if so why?
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Sometimes I have the impression that with respect to Muslims, the UK is more or less arriving where the Netherlands were 7–8 years ago, at the height of the Fortuyn/Verdonk/Wilders years. In my country, the more agitated discussions about Islam have fortunately subsided a bit now. I hope this will happen in the UK as well.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
And just to be clear: this is a three-minute segment broadcasted on television, and people are going to complain? Can't they just...not listen? I know in America some people are literally incapable of turning off the TV, but I wouldn't expect it from you over there.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Some will be uncomfortable with it, seeing it as proselytism or a sleight on Christianity. It'll be interesting to see the response from those who don't want God to be mentioned in public.
You never know, some people may be prompted to .....pray?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
And just to be clear: this is a three-minute segment broadcasted on television, and people are going to complain? Can't they just...not listen? I know in America some people are literally incapable of turning off the TV, but I wouldn't expect it from you over there.
Two points about this:
1) Quite a lot of those who will complain about it will never watch or listen to it at all; instead they'll base their complaints on what someone told them or, more likely, what they read in the Daily Mail newspaper about it.
2) There seems to be a certain section of the British population who watch things they know they're going to dislike or find offensive precisely so they can get offended and complain about it, either officially or on the Daily Mail website. They'll be watching in their thousands.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
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Not in Saudi Arabia ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
This is a massively cute move by Channel 4.
First off, your audience will comprise Muslims who maybe have never paid much attention to the channel before or who are encouraged to see it in a different light. Then you'll get others who are genuinely interested in world religion and, finally, you'll get the usual nutters who are watching because they want to get annoyed. Either way, viewing figures are increased, media exposure goes up and everybody is a winner. Apart from the people who live to be annoyed, some of whom may, hopefully, have to be hospitalised.
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Need writing or copywriting? Visit me at...
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Some will be uncomfortable with it, seeing it as proselytism or a sleight on Christianity. It'll be interesting to see the response from those who don't want God to be mentioned in public.
You never know, some people may be prompted to .....pray?
Terry Sanderson of the National Secular Society said
quote:
However Channel 4 was warned not to give excessive coverage to Ramadan. Terry Sanderson, President of the National Secular Society, said: “I wouldn’t object to it as at least it gives some balance to the BBC’s emphasis on Christianity but Channel 4 has to keep it in proportion.
“The percentage of Muslims in the UK is very small so few people will be interested in it. It may be a novelty and Channel 4 is good at causing a sensation. We don’t want to see any broadcaster becoming a platform for religious proselytising.”
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Given that the "nones" and the active atheists form a larger proportion of society in the UK than do almost all identifiable practicing religionists of the various persuasions (not sure about nominal RC or CofE), I would expect that a similar or larger amount of time should be set aside for non-religious contemplative or "spiritual-but-not-religious" observances.
But I doubt that the "nones" would get the same foaming-at-the-mouth reaction as would the Muslims.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
Ramadan - the time of year when Muslims can eat nothing in the hours of daylight. They have to literally starve themselves. Never has the saying "not enough hours in the day been more true".
(Expects abuse from those without a sense of humour)
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Ramadan in July isn't going to be easy for Muslims living in the Northern Hemisphere.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Given that the "nones" and the active atheists form a larger proportion of society in the UK than do almost all identifiable practicing religionists of the various persuasions (not sure about nominal RC or CofE), I would expect that a similar or larger amount of time should be set aside for non-religious contemplative or "spiritual-but-not-religious" observances.
Having just Googled, it turns out I was in fact missing something...Channel 4 is apparently publicly owned, is that correct? Otherwise I can't see why on earth anyone would feel the need for equal representation of various groups.
And if they broadcast five three-minute calls to prayer every day during Ramadan, that (by my calculations) is about 1.04% of the day, or about 1.5% if consider that most people sleep eight hours or so, at least aspirationally. Given that the Muslim population of the UK is 4.8% (according to Wikipedia, at least), Muslims would still seem to be drastically underrepresented by this particular public broadcaster.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Given that the "nones" and the active atheists form a larger proportion of society in the UK than do almost all identifiable practicing religionists of the various persuasions (not sure about nominal RC or CofE), I would expect that a similar or larger amount of time should be set aside for non-religious contemplative or "spiritual-but-not-religious" observances.
Do the "nones" actually set aside time in their personal lives for "non-religious contemplative or spiritual-but-not-religious observances"? My experience is that most people don't do this, in which case having it on TV is rather silly.
By contrast, Christians, Muslims, and the faithful of other faiths do regularly set aside time for prayer and worship.
ETA: Whilst I think we all know that Channel 4 is trying to be its usual provocative self, rather than actually provide a service to the Muslim community in the UK, it is amusing to note that most of the channel's other "provocative" acts would be more offensive to the average Muslim than to the average Christian.
[ 02. July 2013, 15:25: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
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Not in Saudi Arabia
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
Church and mosque coexist peacefuly throughout the muslim world, ass the Holy Qur'an urges.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Ramadan in July isn't going to be easy for Muslims living in the Northern Hemisphere.
It depends on whose advice you follow.
There is a strong school of thought that suggests holding to the timings of sunrise/set in Mecca is sufficient to be observant.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Given that the "nones" and the active atheists form a larger proportion of society in the UK than do almost all identifiable practicing religionists of the various persuasions (not sure about nominal RC or CofE), I would expect that a similar or larger amount of time should be set aside for non-religious contemplative or "spiritual-but-not-religious" observances.
Having just Googled, it turns out I was in fact missing something...Channel 4 is apparently publicly owned, is that correct? Otherwise I can't see why on earth anyone would feel the need for equal representation of various groups.
And if they broadcast five three-minute calls to prayer every day during Ramadan, that (by my calculations) is about 1.04% of the day, or about 1.5% if consider that most people sleep eight hours or so, at least aspirationally. Given that the Muslim population of the UK is 4.8% (according to Wikipedia, at least), Muslims would still seem to be drastically underrepresented by this particular public broadcaster.
It's not publicly owned really no. It's funded by selling advertising etc in the same way as most commercial stations. It does, however, have a public service remit by order of the act that allowed it to be established. Because of that, it's supposed to "demonstrate innovation" or something nebulous like that. Sceptics have often complained that that just allows it to show stuff that wouldn't be allowed on other channels....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Well, at least, it will be very soon. In case you didn't know,
That's great to hear. Looks like pork bbq and ice cold beer for lunch.
[ 02. July 2013, 15:40: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
There are no official churches in Saudi Arabia. You are officially not allowed to practice any other religion than Islam, Bibles, crucifixes et al are banned, Christian ministers are forbidden to conduct services within the country.
And that's according to the Saudi government.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
What do you call "unbiased"?
From the US State Department here:
"The Government restricted the establishment of places of worship and public training of non-Sunni clergy. The Government officially did not permit non-Sunni clergy to enter the country to conduct religious services, although some did so under other auspices, and the Government generally allowed them to perform discreet religious functions. Such restrictions made it difficult for most non-Muslims to maintain contact with clergy, particularly Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians, whose faiths require a priest on a regular basis to receive sacraments. However, many non-Muslims continued to gather for private worship."
or from the Apostolic Vicariate of Northern Arabia (the part of the Roman Catholic church with jurisdiction over Saudi Arabia):
"As Saudi Arabia is home to Islam's holiest sites, it does not permit churches to be built, as a result there are no Christian churches or places of worship. Non-Islamic religion is not recognized and its public display or activity is prohibited. The Catholic community respects the sensitivities of the region and has always maintained a low profile. Relations with the local authorities are generally good. The country allows Roman Catholics and Christians of other denominations to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work.
The situation of the Church in Saudi Arabia is similar to that of the early Christian communities."
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
Just to clarify with regard to Saudi Arabia, I was talking about coexisting bells and muezzins historically and in the present in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine, Iran, and Iraq, all of which had or have significant Christian populations, although Iraq's is now the smallest due to a strange combination of the Mongols, the Assyrian Genocide and diaspora, and post-2003 violence, the result of which has been that the Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, variously of Seleucia-Ctesiphon and Baghdad, now lives more mundanely in Chicago.
No part of Saudi Arabia, with the exception of the Ghassanids, has ever been primarily Christian, so there has not been a similar situation in which post-conquest Christians and Muslims live side by side.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
No part of Saudi Arabia, with the exception of the Ghassanids, has ever been primarily Christian, so there has not been a similar situation in which post-conquest Christians and Muslims live side by side.
Although there are more than a million Filipino Catholics employed in Saudi Arabia.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Christians could use the call to prayer as a reminder to pray for their Muslim neighbours. The subject matter of those prayers would no doubt vary. This one has a long Anglican pedigree, but might be somewhat controversial for some.
"O merciful God, who hast made all men, and hatest nothing that thou hast made, nor wouldest the death of a sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live; Have mercy upon all Jews, Turks, Infidels, and Hereticks, and take from them all ignorance, hardness of heart, and contempt of thy Word; and so fetch them home, blessed Lord, to thy flock, that they may be saved among the remnant of the true Israelites, and be made one fold under one shepherd, Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, world without end. Amen."
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
Ramadan - the time of year when Muslims can eat nothing in the hours of daylight. They have to literally starve themselves. Never has the saying "not enough hours in the day been more true".
(Expects abuse from those without a sense of humour)
Could someone explain this post, please? The syntax isn't quite clear, but as far as I can understand it seems to be expressing an anti-Muslim sentiment, and then saying that it's only a joke and that anyone who objects lacks a sense of humour.
[ 02. July 2013, 18:18: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Some will be uncomfortable with it, seeing it as proselytism or a sleight on Christianity. It'll be interesting to see the response from those who don't want God to be mentioned in public.
You never know, some people may be prompted to .....pray?
Terry Sanderson of the National Secular Society said
quote:
However Channel 4 was warned not to give excessive coverage to Ramadan. Terry Sanderson, President of the National Secular Society, said: “I wouldn’t object to it as at least it gives some balance to the BBC’s emphasis on Christianity but Channel 4 has to keep it in proportion.
“The percentage of Muslims in the UK is very small so few people will be interested in it. It may be a novelty and Channel 4 is good at causing a sensation. We don’t want to see any broadcaster becoming a platform for religious proselytising.”
So people aren't supposed to be interested in anything they don't do themselves? That's a strange thing for Mr Sanderson to say!
According to some forecasts, Islam is likely to have an increasing presence in the UK over the following decades, and it's even been predicted that the number of practicing Muslims will outpace the number of practicing Christians in just a few decades. It would therefore make perfect sense for all British people to know more about Islam.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
No part of Saudi Arabia, with the exception of the Ghassanids, has ever been primarily Christian, so there has not been a similar situation in which post-conquest Christians and Muslims live side by side.
Although there are more than a million Filipino Catholics employed in Saudi Arabia.
If that was edited for accuracy it would say...
quote:
There are more than a million Filipino workers, including some practicing Catholics, employed in Saudi Arabia.
The Philippines is very much a secular country these days, with the proportion of the population that are practicing Catholics only about one third.
If you understood the conditions in which guest workers live in the rich petro-economies of the Arabian peninsula, you would also understand that living in the same country does not mean they are actually living side-by-side with the locals.
[ 02. July 2013, 18:56: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Not in Saudi Arabia
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
Where have you been for the last couple of centuries?
Not only are new churches not allowed - completely banned even in provate houses - but the remains or ruins of old churches have often been demolished, and the land filled in so there is no evidence they were ever there at all. The same has been done to mosques they think are heretical as well. And of course pagan temples. Many valuable historical and archaeological sites have been destroyed. The stated policy of the Saudi kingdom is that there should be no visible presence of any other religion than Sunni Islam in the territiry it rules.
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
No part of Saudi Arabia, with the exception of the Ghassanids, has ever been primarily Christian, so there has not been a similar situation in which post-conquest Christians and Muslims live side by side.
Not since the Saudis took over, no, but before that there were at least some Christian as well as Jewish communities in Yemen and possibly some parts of the Gulf coast (maybe among Persian rather than Arab speakers) And way back before Islam there were both Christians and Jews in the area round Mecca and Medina which is how come they get intio the Koran.
[ 02. July 2013, 19:06: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Ramadan in July isn't going to be easy for Muslims living in the Northern Hemisphere.
It depends on whose advice you follow.
There is a strong school of thought that suggests holding to the timings of sunrise/set in Mecca is sufficient to be observant.
Yes. This was resolved some time ago. Muslims in Scandinavia, especially in the parts closer to the Arctic Circle, really struggle with the extended hours of daylight in summer, when you get virtually no night at all, so they tend to go with the hours of sunrise/sunset in Mecca. Muslims further south, in Northern Europe, generally follow the sunrise/sunset pattern of where they're living, which probably is a bit of a grind for them, but do-able. How they manage to carry on with normal working days as well, I don't know.
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Not
Ship's Quack
# 2166
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Posted
Since they're broadcasting it at 3am, it's hard to see how anyone who doesn't really, really want to be offended can be.
(Images of Melanie Phillips et al setting alarm clocks for 0255 to ensure they're ready to be outraged...)
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Was CJ; now Not
Posts: 600 | From: the far, far West | Registered: Jan 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Channel 4 is broadcasting the first one at 3am, but there's more than one call to prayer a day...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Melanie will need one of those clocks with multiple alarm times, so she can have multiple outrages.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Given that the "nones" ...
Do the "nones" actually set aside time in their personal lives for "non-religious contemplative or spiritual-but-not-religious observances"? My experience is that most people don't do this, in which case having it on TV is rather silly....
LC: Since Terry Sanderson IS trying to set up some sort of regular "contemplative or spiritual-but-not-religious" observance, you might allow him to put his oar in!
And: how do you KNOW that these nones have no regular observances?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
And: how do you KNOW that these nones have no regular observances?
It would perhaps be more accurate to say that out of the fairly large number of "nones" that I have known well enough to discuss such things with, precisely none of them had any kind of "regular observance".
Clearly some do - the "atheist church" that started in London earlier this year, for example, starts to look a bit like that, although it's not very frequent.
Unless you count people who like, for example, to take long walks in the country in order to think and clear their heads, in which case I'd have to add at least "taking a shower" to the list of observances.
Mr. Sanderson seems more concerned with not having "excessive" coverage of Ramadan than anything else, but if he and Mr. Porteous Wood had a proposal for some way of marking national atheism week (and had rather wider support than just their friends and family), I'd be happy for Channel 4 to give him oar-room.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
.
Not in Saudi Arabia
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
Church and mosque coexist peacefuly throughout the muslim world, ass the Holy Qur'an urges.
Tell that to the Christians fleeing from Syria and churches ransacked.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
No part of Saudi Arabia, with the exception of the Ghassanids, has ever been primarily Christian, so there has not been a similar situation in which post-conquest Christians and Muslims live side by side.
Not since the Saudis took over, no, but before that there were at least some Christian as well as Jewish communities in Yemen and possibly some parts of the Gulf coast (maybe among Persian rather than Arab speakers) And way back before Islam there were both Christians and Jews in the area round Mecca and Medina which is how come they get intio the Koran.
Hence "primarily." Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and parts of modern Iraq and Iran had Christian-majority areas in a way that no part of Arabia did.
The point, of course, is that Christians and Muslims have lived with one another's noise with varying amounts of conflict for nearly the entire history of Islam. Perhaps Britons (and Americans, and Bosnians, and...) can learn from that coexistence in ways that minimize the bad times and maximize the good.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
AIUI, interfaith relations in Cordova, Spain were reportedly pretty peaceful under Moorish rule.
As to getting used to church bells and calls to prayer: for me, those would be tolerable if heard from another part of town, so I wouldn't get so much of the noise. I haven't heard the call to prayer live, but I know I react to church bells that way.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
.
Not in Saudi Arabia
Nor in the backwoods of the US Deep South.
And for that matter, tho i live in the US Deep South, I live in an urban area, in a neighborhood in which, as a matter of fact, a large percentage of the population is Muslim. I don't hear church bells or muzzeins, just speeding cars, sirens, and the occasional distant sound of gunfire.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
And btw best wishes for Ramadan and a joyful Eid to any Muslim readers of this website that there may be.
I don't know how many Muslim readers or members there are on this website. ISTM that the very extremely occasional Muslim shipmate that has posted has recieved a lot more flack than, say, our atheist members*. We had a very thoughtful Muslim poster in particular a few years back whom I thought got mostly unfairly hostile responses. It quite saddened me. (It's been quite a while and I can't provide documentation)
*tis is in no way a slight against our atheist members who are among the the best posters on the Ship.
[ 03. July 2013, 11:11: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Good for them! Muslims have to listen to our church bells all the time; on the quarter-hour, in some places. It's said that the dueling muezzins and bells in various cities have always been fierce, particularly in the Middle East.
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Not in Saudi Arabia
It is often said that churches aren't allowed there - but is there any unbiased evidence?
Church and mosque coexist peacefuly throughout the muslim world, ass the Holy Qur'an urges.
'ass the Holy Qur'an urges'
In his zeal to show his respect for Islam, it looks like leo has committed blasphemy against it.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) Amos! Leo will deny it of course......
However my understanding is that it's going to be on at 3.00am?
For heaven's sakes I'll be in bed, fast asleep bar insomnia
And will it be any longer than the adverts anyway?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
Channel 4 always seems to think it is being radical but comes across as a brattish child playing up. We see this every year with the dreary alternative Christmas message. It is about as provocative as all those old hat ENO opera productions with gratuitous nudity, shocking no one but the production team in their bubble .... Time to grow up.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Channel 4 is broadcasting the first one at 3am, but there's more than one call to prayer a day...
The Guardian article says:
quote:
The headline-grabbing move will see Channel 4 broadcast the three-minute call to prayer at about 3am for 30 days from the start of Ramadan on 9 July.
Channel 4 will also interrupt programming four times on the first day of Ramadan to mark subsequent calls by means of a 20-second film to remind viewers of the approaching prayer time.
After that date, the channel will air the 3am call to prayer on live TV, and the other four prayer times will be broadcast on its website.
So it's only the 3.00am call that will be broadcast after the first day - hardly seems worth getting worked up about!
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
Seems like quite an interesting thing to do.
What's the problem?
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
where the Netherlands were 7–8 years ago... agitated discussions about Islam
It was nine years ago that Theo van Gogh was murdered by an Islamist exremist.
How strange that such an act would produce "agitated discussion"!
Surely it should be possible to agree that Channel 4's actions are fairly innocuous, without feeling the need to go on and trivialise Islamofascist atrocities.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Ramadan in July isn't going to be easy for Muslims living in the Northern Hemisphere.
It is the Southern Hemisphere here, it is bloody cold, and everyone is perpetually hungry.
Just this morning I was urging my friend Youcef, who is very thin, to eat up and put on some condition before Ramadan, in case he disappears.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm probably giving you more airtime than you deserve, leo, but FFS, can you possibly demonstrate any greater obtuseness than by these statements? quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It is often said that churches aren't allowed [in Saudi Arabia] - but is there any unbiased evidence?
That's not the way things work, leo. If you want to argue the manifestly counter-factual position, it's on you to mount evidence to support your claim. quote:
Church and mosque coexist peacefuly throughout the muslim world, ass the Holy Qur'an urges.
"Throughout the Muslim world." Really?! You put that in the present tense as though things were hunky-dory in, say, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and any number of additions 'stans. What countries am I leaving out?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
I really, really hate the the word 'Islamofascist.' [I][/I]
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
It shows a comedic misunderstanding of fascism, for a start.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I partially agree. I dislike use of the word 'fascist' as a general term of abuse against anyone with slightly authoritarian tendencies or indeed anyone who has a slightly different point of view, not least because it detracts from the 'Fascism' as a valid political ideology which is my view no worse than, say, communism.
But 'fascism' as an insult is widespread (and despite my personal dislike I've probably used it myself once or twice). I don't see why 'Islamofascist' is any better or worse than other examples of the word fascist when it's used as an insult.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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DouglasTheOtter
Ship's aquatic mammal
# 17681
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Posted
It's not what these outrages are, though.
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Posts: 171 | From: Twickenham | Registered: May 2013
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