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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Genetics, collusion and cnspiracy
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
On July 31st in Independent Science News (ISN) Jonathan Latham suggested that there is a degree of collusion between scientists, industry, and governments to downplay and ignore the environmental and social origins of human disease. quote:
from Allison Wilson, Ph.D., Science Director of the Bioscience Resource Project (which publishes ISN) Consistently, we find weak scientific evidence for genetic influences is seized upon while strong evidence for environmental influences is disregarded
The argument is that money is being pumped into genetics – fruitlessly and with dubious motivation. quote:
From Claudia Chaufan, MD, PhD. Genes 'for' common disorders (e.g. diabetes, depression) haven't been found because they do not exist. We can expect no public health benefits from sequencing individuals’ genes.
So one question is what shipmates make of this thesis, but now we come to another matter. On 1st August a “massive” 5-day Distributive Denial of Service attack forced ISN offline, so that if anyone had posted a link to the site on Facebook or Twitter, all people who clicked on that link would get would be an error message. ISN finds this coincidence sinister – so are they paranoid or what?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think it was Florence Nightingale who discovered that getting physicians to wash their hands was the most important disease preventative measure, and good handling of public services like water and sewage separation is also more more important than all the drugs and medications in improving the epidemiology of infectious diseases.
But you can't market those things well and make a profit. Thus, in a free market, companies figure out to sell you something and a tablet or other medication is a great idea. Consider that the cost per pill can be from pennies to 10s of dollars per unit. High return on easily stored little things.
Thus, I fault a market system of drugs patents, lack of publicly funded research into disease and medical issues.
The second lines of fault are lobbies from other market driven industries, like the sugar lobby, such that it is very difficult to buy a packaged food that doesn't contain sugar or corn syrop.
There's much more I suspect to come in this discussion.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think it was Florence Nightingale who discovered that getting physicians to wash their hands was the most important disease preventative measure...
The scientific demonstration of that is usually attributed to Ignaz Semmelweis.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Genes 'for' common disorders (e.g. diabetes, depression) haven't been found because they do not exist.
That's entirely true. And a commonplace among people who teach genetics. At theast the ones who taught me.
quote:
We can expect no public health benefits from sequencing individuals’ genes.
That doesn't follow though and I can't see why she thinks it would. You don't have to buy into genetic determinism to fuind some use or interest in sequencing genes.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I would argue that there can be genetic causes to depression.
That's very different from saying there is such a thing as "a gene for depression".
The paper linked to by the website isn't about genetic causes of derpression - they are claiming that there is a noticeable difference in expression of genes thought to be associated with circadian rythmns than in people with serious depression than in others - which isn't the same thing at all.
It might be that both dpression and disrupted body clocks are responses to some other influence. Or maybe the causality goes the other way. Or maybe its something else entirely. And of course those genes involved in circadian rythmns alos are uinvolved in all sorts of other things, some of which might be associated with depression in all sorts of ways.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
If this article was true then why are governments and scientists still so interested in ensuring we have access to clean water, reasonably clean air, lead free petrol and paints, unspoiled food etc? Not to mention the focus on climate change and how to prevent it - some politicians might deny climate change, but scientists mostly don't, and that has nothing to do with genetics.I haven't noticed anyone ignoring environmental factors lately.
It's almost a joke how often we read scare stories about this or that environmental factor or food causing cancer, asthma, ADHD etc.
I was also disturbed that partway down the article implied autism might be caused by vaccines when this has been clearly disproved.
Genetic studies still have a lot of benefits and scientists don't just study human genetics. For example they might study the genetics of bacteria or viruses to try to prevent or find cures for diseases caused by microbes.
I'm not arguing that the way in which science is funded is perfect and unbiased, however the people that wrote this article are stretching the evidence too far to try to prove their extreme point of view.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I don't know about the funding situation, but it does seem to me that geneticists are very good at PR. Though I can't cite chapter and verse, I get the impression that geneticists are always popping up on popular science programme to claim that she/ he/ they are about to find the gene that causes this, that and the other.
As far as education goes, I agree that the belief that intelligence is wholly or mainly genetically determined is both flawed and dangerous, but I'm hardly alone in that respect.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Nobody claims that educational outcomes are caused by genes. As a teacher I find it's exactly the opposite. We're expected to get all children to reach certain benchmarks on standardised tests regardless of their natural abilities, learning disabilities or health. Children with more severe disabilities can sometimes be excepted from a school's results, but every year schools get accused of not letting kids sit the tests in order to boost their results. This year a special school even got pilloried in the community and local media for getting low results, despite the fact that all their students had intellectual disabilities.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I don't find the original research results sinister as claimed in the article.
There's a saying that a surgeon sees all medical treatment as needing a knife. It's not surprising that a group of genetic researchers are going to conclude with suggestions on the most fruitful additional genetic research opportunities rather than saying drop genetics and get a degree in civil engineering and build better water supplies.
As for Semelweiss, there's another issue. It's not conscious but Doctors are not quick to look for Iatrogenic causes of illness. It's hard to think of yourself as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. I went through this when I was noticing brain damage from chemotherapy. Chemo brain got dismissed as psychosomatic for a long time before it was researched.
There's plenty of fruitful research in genetics that may yield powerful new treatments for prevention and treatment of diseases. How that research gets prioritized with simple basic medicine like pre-natal nutrition and water supply quality is a political issue that's handled badly in the U.S. Medical research funding tends to go heavily to medical issues that are experienced by US Congressmen.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Mili The use of standardized tests may have reached its zenith in the United States. They have not been very good in overall outcomes.
I have noticed this year I am having more of an allergic reaction to something related to the seasons. I can still control whatever it is with OTC medications. Not sure if it is an increase in allergens or just me aging.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
Independent Science News editor is apparently a co-founder and executive director of Bioscience Resource Project.
A few minutes on the web finds connections through Bioscience Resource Project personnel to a site providing support for chiropractic, naturopathy etc. – suggest you check thoroughly before placing too much reliance on their writings – starting with
this perhaps?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Mili The use of standardized tests may have reached its zenith in the United States. They have not been very good in overall outcomes.
Good to hear. Teachers here hate them, but no matter what evidence is given to the government or the fact they haven't improved education overseas, both sides of politics support them.
My own view is that people are born with innate abilities and some people are naturally good or bad or average at maths, language etc, but environmental and social/cultural factors at home, in the community and at school also influence the level and quality of education each person receives.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I get the impression that geneticists are always popping up on popular science programme to claim that she/ he/ they are about to find the gene that causes this, that and the other.
Some of them are. A lot more of them are misquoted or misunderstood as saying things like that.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Independent Science News editor is apparently a co-founder and executive director of Bioscience Resource Project.
A few minutes on the web finds connections through Bioscience Resource Project personnel to a site providing support for chiropractic, naturopathy etc. – suggest you check thoroughly before placing too much reliance on their writings – starting with
this perhaps?
Well, they don't attempt to hide the fact that ISN and BRP are inter-linked. I'm grateful for the link you posted, but I don't think I am placing 'too much' reliance on BRP. In fact, I asked what shipmates think precisely because this subject is way beyond my competence, saving that, in the field of education, I know enought to know that their thesis is broadly correct: there may well be an innate, heritable component to intelligence, but in the past there's been some very dubious science used to support some very ugly politics.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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