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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anti-Christian prejudice in LGB community
S. Bacchus
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Hello all. This is a somewhat personal post, and I have a bit of trepidation about posting it all, let alone in a forum with such a forbidding title as 'Dead Horses', but the community guidelines seem to suggest it should go here.

A few years ago, I was at a discussion group run jointly by a local Islamic society and a local LGBT group. The speaker, a gay Muslim, suggested that he personally experienced more anti-Islamic prejudice amongst LGBT people than homophobia amongst Muslims. This raised a lot of eyebrows, mine included. But on reflection, this is not dissimilar to my own experience as a Cristian who also happens to be an openly gay young(ish) man.

I am very active in Church life. I'm CofE and the churches I've attended have ranged from very liberal and affiliated with Inclusive Church up to rather conservative places under the care of flying bishops, including most varieties of English Anglicanism except the very Evangelical. I've also been a semi-reqular attender of the midweek meeting of the local Society of Friends, and have been involved ecumenically with groups from the URC, the Russian Orthodox Church, and especially the Roman Catholics. Never once have I felt that my sexuality was 'an issue'.

However, I routinely encounter the most vitriolic statements about religion (and Christianity in particular) from other LGBT persons. The frequency and vehemency of these attacks on Christianity are such that I'm often afraid that my religion will become known (I never bring them up myself).

In a recent fit of loneliness and, frankly, desperation, I've entered the world of online dating. By my estimation 95% of all gay and bi guys identify as atheist (a much higher proportion than the general population, where I'd guess that most people would identify as either agnostics or perhaps 'spiritual but not religious'). Atheism itself not evidence of anti-Christian prejudice per se, but to my astonishment this dating website included a question 'would you consider dating a Catholic' to which a great majority answered 'no', even in preference to the option 'only if not practicing'.

I realize that a lot of this stems from the feeling that Christians are all anti-gay (which is nothing like true in my experience), but a lot of criticisms of, e.g. the Pope (with whom I disagree strongly on certain issues myself) go far beyond what I would see as legitimate criticism and descend into the sort of crude anti-Catholicism that I'd associate with tracts from the Protestant Truth Society, albeit with few Bible verses. The Church of England doesn't come off much better and, frankly, the mood of anti-Christianity is such that I doubt even the Metropolitan Community Church would be seen favourably.

Am I just over-sensitive or do other people (and particularly other LGB Christians) find more prejudice based on their faith than on their sexuality?

{Sorry, I realize that I'm rambling a bit}

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm not gay, but me and some friends have a joke that it's easier to come out as gay than Christian today. Obviously, I don't know if that's true, but certainly there is some pretty fierce anti-Christian and anti-religious feeling around.

And yes, on anti-Catholicism, I thought that when the Pope visited, the amount of vitriol was amazing, not just by village atheists, but in the respectable press and on TV. But in the UK, anti-Catholicism has deep historical roots.

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Starbug
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I'm straight, but I come into contact with a lot of LGBT people in my trade union role. I find some of the discussions difficult sometimes, as there appears to be an under-current of anti-Christian or anti-religious feeling. Last year, the general secretary of my union made a speech at conference about the 'bigots' who oppose gay marriage. I am not opposed to gay marriage myself, but I do find it rather difficult to be automatically labelled a bigot because of my faith. While he was speaking, I felt like an outsider in my own union.

Sometimes I feel that, no matter how open-minded and inclusive I've become over the years (as a result of my union work), there are those who might not be so open-minded towards me if they knew I was a Christian. And I find this very sad, as I genuinely mean them no harm and want to work with them.

At the Tolpuddle Martyrs Festival last week, there was a Humanist Society stall, with a banner asking if the world would be a better place if only people didn't believe in God (or words to that effect). I can understanding that this kind of message would be welcome if you've been treated badly by the church in the past or been told that you are a terrible sinner because of your sexuality. As a Christian walking past the stall, though, it didn't come across as very friendly!

Most of the time, I feel very much at home in the union, especially as I believe God has called me to this work. But every now and then, something happens that kind of shakes me up a bit and makes me wonder if I truly fit in.

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“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor

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Curiosity killed ...

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I don't think it's just the gay world that's anti-religion. I've heard a lot of comics stating very anti-religion positions going to live comedy. It's what trigger the thread I started in Purgatory - the one about the future of all churches in England

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roybart
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Thank you, S. Bacchus, for raising this issue. Although I am a relatively new Shipmate I want welcome you to SofF. I look forward to hearing your voice in the future.

In my experience, here in the U.S. at least, many, many GLBT people have personally experienced intense and frequent contempt and rejection from organized Christian groups and their spokespersons. By "personally" I mean: words and actions directly aimed at themselves or at friends and loved ones.

I am referring to things like Bible passages used as a weapon; indirect or overt statements that "you are not wanted here;" smug assurances that we "love the sinner, hate the sin;," defense of anti-gay social attitudes and behaviors; politicking for anti-gay legislation; plus lots of personal advice on how to deal with one's malady in a properly Christian manner. This is an almost universal experience among GLBT's. (One reads about it constantly even if one does not suffer from it face to face)

It is not surprising that many GLBT's learn to mistrust organized Christianity and become skeptical of and even antagonistic to it. This is probably strongest among those who have grown up in -- or aspired to be part of -- Roman Catholic and Protestant fundamentalist and conservative evangelical churches. Mainstream churches, which often adopt a version of "don't-ask-don't-tell," send a a more equivocal message that conveys its own form of contempt.

Despite this, the desire to participate as an equal member in organized Christianity remains stronger than one might think, at least here in the U.S.. Increasing numbers of GLBT Christians are drawn to membership in inclusive Christian churches, especially the more welcoming congregations of Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. I realize such churches -- and especially the Episcopal Church -- have become lightening rods for scorn among the theological conservative Christian contingent on SofF and elsewhere. However, those I am familiar with are alive and well. They do this by focusing on Christ's message of love, service, and mutual respect and support for all.

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-- Roger Scruton

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Raptor Eye
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I think that the 'no religion or politics' rule has discouraged most ordinary Christians from speaking openly and honestly about our faith for so long that we now have several generations of ignorance and urban myth, tapped into by those with an aggressive agenda to push talk of God into a small room with soundproof walls. Church leaders have done little to encourage members and equip them to do so istm.

I too have often wondered whether it might be as hard for Christians to come out in some situations as it has been for some to come out as gay.

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TonyK

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S.Bacchus - Welcome to the Ship and rest assured that you have found the right forum for your first thread - though I have to say it is from a different, and thought-provoking, direction! I hope it generates a good discussion.

Thank you for taking the time to read our Guidelines (not every new Shipmate seems to bother!) and I guess that you have probably also read our Ten Commandments.

Enjoy your time on the Ship

Yours aye ... TonyK
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lilBuddha
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If there is anti-Christian prejudice in LGBT communities, it is likely very much a reaction to the prejudice felt from Christian communities.
Whilst the prejudice has emanated from more directions than this, it might be especially hurtful from those who claim to be followers of a loving being.
And most here will be from countries in which Christianity informs culture so to be LGBT, one might feel all the more unwelcome.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If there is anti-Christian prejudice in LGBT communities, it is likely very much a reaction to the prejudice felt from Christian communities.
Whilst the prejudice has emanated from more directions than this, it might be especially hurtful from those who claim to be followers of a loving being.

I think it goes a bit further than that. In a lot of ways, religion has become an excuse for bigotry, along the lines of "it's not bigotry if it's my religion". For instance:

quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
Last year, the general secretary of my union made a speech at conference about the 'bigots' who oppose gay marriage. I am not opposed to gay marriage myself, but I do find it rather difficult to be automatically labelled a bigot because of my faith.

Starbug doesn't claim to share the beliefs highlighted as bigoted (opposition to same-sex marriage) but nonetheless identifies this as a form of shorthand for "Christianity".

In a lot of ways, religion in general (and Christianity in particular in majority-Christian countries) has come to be the excuse of choice for those who want to discriminate. As was noted elsewhere, discriminating against homosexuals is the one area that the faithful seem to feel justified extending to wider society.

"Sure, I'll sell you a cake for your out-of-wedlock baby's Pagan naming ceremony, but doing one for a lesbian wedding is out of the question!"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If there is anti-Christian prejudice in LGBT communities, it is likely very much a reaction to the prejudice felt from Christian communities.
Whilst the prejudice has emanated from more directions than this, it might be especially hurtful from those who claim to be followers of a loving being.

That was kind of what I was thinking when I saw the OP. "Gee, why would gays have any reason to dislike Christians?" I wonder.

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SvitlanaV2
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It was Trevor Phillips of Race Relations fame who first said that Christians were more militantly anti-gay than Muslims. If this is so, perhaps it's because Muslims see this whole issue as belonging to the secular Western cultural context, and not a major concern for them.

If we see gay liberation as part of the general Western search for self-fulfillment and individual happiness then it doesn't fit so easily into the Islamic (or indeed, Eastern/non Western?) idea of duty, family coherence and group loyalty. Christianity, however, has helped to create the individualistic Western world and is now in many cases battling against the fruits of its own labour.

Funnily enough, I read an article in the Guardian Review on Saturday that it was easier to come out as gay than as a Christian. But that's only in certain circles, of course. The article was actually about the continued salience of religion, especially fundamentalism, in the world today.

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Justinian
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When gay people put together an organised campaign to prevent Christians marrying the people they love then we can start to say that gay people are more anti-Christian than Christians are anti-gay. Until then, a large proportion of one group (including most of the major leaders) is campaigning to prevent the other having rights - and the other doesn't like that group because of it.

I'm shocked, shocked to discover that people take campaigns to deny them their rights personally.

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
I'm straight, but I come into contact with a lot of LGBT people in my trade union role. I find some of the discussions difficult sometimes, as there appears to be an under-current of anti-Christian or anti-religious feeling. Last year, the general secretary of my union made a speech at conference about the 'bigots' who oppose gay marriage. I am not opposed to gay marriage myself, but I do find it rather difficult to be automatically labelled a bigot because of my faith. While he was speaking, I felt like an outsider in my own union.

I know Creosus has already made this point, but I want to reiterate it. Right now, looking at the above example, homophobic bigotry is so deeply tied to the identity of the Church (possibly more than any other value) that you can not speak about homophobic bigotry without Christians getting offended because they are sure it is talking about them.

I think the Church has a major problem if that is what it stands for, and that is what its members think it stands for.

quote:
Sometimes I feel that, no matter how open-minded and inclusive I've become over the years (as a result of my union work), there are those who might not be so open-minded towards me if they knew I was a Christian. And I find this very sad, as I genuinely mean them no harm and want to work with them.
The problem is that you belong to an organisation which, from your own words, does mean either the people you work with or some of their friends harm. You yourself identify the organisation you are a member of with bigotry. And if you yourself make this identification when you are a member why shouldn't outsiders?

The identification of the church with bigotry doesn't just come from the outside. And it is sad and needs fixing. But the way to fix it isn't to complain that you feel out of place whenever people decry bigotry because you identify your organisation with bigotry.

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roybart
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
When gay people put together an organised campaign to prevent Christians marrying the people they love then we can start to say that gay people are more anti-Christian than Christians are anti-gay. Until then, a large proportion of one group (including most of the major leaders) is campaigning to prevent the other having rights - and the other doesn't like that group because of it.

I'm shocked, shocked to discover that people take campaigns to deny them their rights personally.

[Overused]

Incidentally, I'm glad that this thread has returned the original track established in the OP. It certainly was strange to see the thread veering for a while to the sounds of "you think you have it hard? We Christians have it even harder."

There are apparently still people, even on Ship of Fools, who think in terms of a disconnect between "gay" and "Christian." This, on a Board which has so many professed gay Christian members. And, in a world in which "gay" as well as "Christian" are umbrella terms reflecting a very complex, varied reality.

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-- Roger Scruton

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

It is not surprising that many GLBT's learn to mistrust organized Christianity and become skeptical of and even antagonistic to it. This is probably strongest among those who have grown up in -- or aspired to be part of -- Roman Catholic and Protestant fundamentalist and conservative evangelical churches. Mainstream churches, which often adopt a version of "don't-ask-don't-tell," send a a more equivocal message that conveys its own form of contempt.

This is from a US perspective:

I think you are overestimating the general knowledge of Christianity among the non-church-going public. Unless they read Ship of Fools, it is likely that their total knowledge of what Christians are like comes from the daily news, where the antics of Westboro Baptist Church, pronouncements from popular televanglists and RC officials, and/or sex scandals get far more media coverage than local attempts to be inclusive, feed the hungry, etc.

I've been amazed at the reactions when I come out as someone who reads Ship of Fools, because many otherwise intelligent people don't believe there is an inclusive, compassionate, sane side to Christianity based on all the counter examples displayed so prominently in the news. And I'd likely hold the same beliefs if I weren't exposed to the wide range of views on the Ship.

I don't blame the LGBT community for thinking that all Christians are bigoted jerks, because those are the ones who get publicity. If other Christians don't like that, then they will have to work harder at making inclusive churches and attitudes more visible. It's unfortunate, of course, but that's what Christianity looks like from the outside.

[ 30. July 2013, 01:09: Message edited by: Carex ]

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roybart
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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:

I've been amazed at the reactions when I come out as someone who reads Ship of Fools, because many otherwise intelligent people don't believe there is an inclusive, compassionate, sane side to Christianity based on all the counter examples displayed so prominently in the news. And I'd likely hold the same beliefs if I weren't exposed to the wide range of views on the Ship.

I don't blame the LGBT community for thinking that all Christians are bigoted jerks, because those are the ones who get publicity. If other Christians don't like that, then they will have to work harder at making inclusive churches and attitudes more visible. It's unfortunate, of course, but that's what Christianity looks like from the outside.

Good points. I agree that churches should become more inclusive, though it's a truism that the most segregated time in the U.S. week (racially but also in many other ways) is Sunday morning.

It seems to me that non-gay Christians (and, more important, Christian organizations) might work a little harder to give witness to their support for tolerance and inclusion. I remember reading in the early 2000s that about 1/3 of evangelicals at that time could be considered socially "liberal." I don't know if this is true, but -- if it is -- where are these people? This 1/3 has certainly been silent and invisible on this topic.

Perhaps, if we want the media to stop focusing on the lunatic fringe and other more respectable extremists, Christians who are NOT committed to the anti-gay agenda should go out into the world and show the rest of us that "Christians" can be as loving, tolerant, and non-doctrinaire as any number of secular institutions that are doing just that.

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John Holding

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Ten years ago or more, I asked my son (then 22 and just finishing university) what his friends (all at university themselves) thought of Christianity.

"Christianity is either fundamentalist US evangelicals [a la Westboro Baptist or some of the more conservative Baptist/Pentecostal groups] or Roman Catholic priests buggering little boys".

That's what they know, that's all they know -- and it's what they were being raised to believe 20-30 years ago.

Why does the LGBT community think Christians are anti-gay? Because the whole world, and far too many christians, tells them that CHristians are anti-gay.

John

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roybart
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Why does the LGBT community think Christians are anti-gay? Because the whole world, and far too many christians, tells them that CHristians are anti-gay.

And ... the other side of the coin ... because relatively few Christian leaders and organizations speak to the contrary.

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"The consolations of the imaginary are not imaginary consolations."
-- Roger Scruton

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
And ... the other side of the coin ... because relatively few Christian leaders and organizations speak to the contrary.

Columnist Dan Savage coined the term "NALT Christianity" to describe this sort of thing. "NALT" stands for Not All Like That which, according to Savage, is the usual phrase (or similar) he encounters from moderate Christians following some bit of vitriolic homophobia by their co-religionists. Savage's position is that such protests are better aimed at the Pat Robertsons and Ton Perkinses than at him.

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Golden Key
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Welcome, S. Bacchus!

I don't know if this is of any help, but Pope Francis took a step today to be more accepting of gays, particularly RC priests who are gay. He still affirms the church's stance that homosexual *behavior* is wrong; but he said something to the effect of, "if a gay man seeks God and is of good will, who am I to judge him?"

My reaction to the thread title was the same as that of other posters: given the way they've been treated, over the centuries, they have very good reason to hate Christianity.

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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One of my biggest gripes as a lesbian in the church was not with the overt anti-gay members, but the woolly types who assure you of their support in private but then put "unity" ahead of the support they promised in private when it comes to voting.

I know where I stand with the overt anti brigade. I can have some respect for their commitment, even if I don't agree with it.

The most damaging homophobia I have experienced came from the flip floppers. They're what made me leave in the end.

I am not anti-Christian. I am anti some Christians, and I'm very wary of people who talk out both sides of their mouths.

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John Holding

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The local Pride parade is coming up soon. My parish will be there with a banner proclaiming our name. Our rector has said he will find his collar so he can wear it (and be known as the rector). I'm hoping a fair number of people from the congregation will be there. We'll be one parish out of 5-10 (maybe more) there, from a diocese with about 30 urban and suburban parishes (the rest are rural and outside the scope of our city's parade). Who knows, our bishop may be there -- he's already approved the blessing of at least one same-sex marriage -- I was there for it.

Now, we in Canada already have same-sex marriage, and there are no legal or public battles I know of left to be fought. So although Arabella is right, marching in the parade and supporting my friends at the blessing of their marriage is the best I can do, and the most many of us "straight but not narrow" folks can do.

John

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
One of my biggest gripes as a lesbian in the church was not with the overt anti-gay members, but the woolly types who assure you of their support in private but then put "unity" ahead of the support they promised in private when it comes to voting.

I know where I stand with the overt anti brigade. I can have some respect for their commitment, even if I don't agree with it.

The most damaging homophobia I have experienced came from the flip floppers. They're what made me leave in the end.

To borrow from a a notable Christian writing on a similar subject, "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:

There are apparently still people, even on Ship of Fools, who think in terms of a disconnect between "gay" and "Christian." This, on a Board which has so many professed gay Christian members.

Hmmph, simply because they accept Jesus, does not mean he accepts them.

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Curiosity killed ...

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Sorry - my brevity was misleading.

I think that it's totally understandable that LGBTs are anti-Christian, and that comedians are too. Why shouldn't they be when we are still hearing the bishops spiritual proposing amendments to the same sex marriage bill which looked like delaying or watering down tactics?

I didn't make the links clear but I suspect that the future of the church, any church, is jeopardised by discriminatory behaviour by churches because it dilutes any message for justice from the Gospels when the churches (the ones that are heard in the press) are seen to reject the LGBT community. Not just the LGBT issues, but the continuing child abuse cases and the women bishop battles in the CofE.

quote:
posted by Justinian
The problem is that you belong to an organisation which, from your own words, does mean either the people you work with or some of their friends harm. You yourself identify the organisation you are a member of with bigotry. And if you yourself make this identification when you are a member why shouldn't outsiders?

The identification of the church with bigotry doesn't just come from the outside. And it is sad and needs fixing. But the way to fix it isn't to complain that you feel out of place whenever people decry bigotry because you identify your organisation with bigotry.

What is the answer then? Should those people who disagree with the anti-LGBT and other problems within the churches leave? (I have, because I got to the point of not wanting to wear those labels) Because doesn't that reduce the numbers trying to change things from within?

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Palimpsest
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Welcome aboard S.Bachhus. My experience is different than yours.
As an American gay non-Christian older man, I recall going to a commonwealth legislative session 30 years ago to discuss adding gays to the protected categories for hate crimes because of the rather routine level of violence against gays. The only people testifying against the inclusion were several representatives of fundamentalist churches and a representative of the Cardinal who sent the message that it was wrong to allow this protection to Gay people.
The last 10 years in Washington state have been about working toward successfully getting a law passed so that same sex civil marriage could happen. Most of the opposition to that came from Christian churches and political factions seeking to please them.
This opposition has been typical of many efforts to fix a bunch of laws that discriminate against gay people. Fighting this has taken a great deal of time, effort and money.
This has not engendered fondness for such Churches in me or other Gay people who have fought for these laws.

You ask why out gay people would not want to date a practicing Catholic. Well, by definition of the Catholic Church such a practicing Catholic should be celibate, a limitation which many Gay people think takes something out of the dating experience.

Not all Christian churches behave this way in the US. The Friends, Unitarians and liberal Protestant churches have been fighting the good fight for gay right for decades. I think you'll find they are welcome. However the general feeling in the US is that most Anti Gay opposition is organized around Conservative Christian, Jewish and Mormon groups.
You exaggerate when you say that the feeling is all Christian churches are anti-gay. However the belief that many Christian Churches are anti gay is common and seems justified. Note the Bishops in the House of Lords who voted against same-sex marriage. This leads to the belief among non-practicing gay folk that the COE is anti-gay despite your experiences.

I'm happy you've had a good time in a variety of religious settings where your sexual identity is not a problem. If those dating efforts work and you find a partner you want to make a life time commitment to in the Church of England, I believe you will find a problem finding a Church of England church to
marry you. You may decide this isn't a real problem, and life is wonderful in your chosen Church. Other Gay people will differ with you.


now that Christian groups that oppose gay equality are becoming unpopular they like to pose themselves as victims of the evil gays.
People who come out as Gay risk losing their job, custody of their child, being beaten up or killed. I'm unaware of any cases where that has happened to Christians who revealed their faith. You might be unpopular among Gay people if you support a church that is doing its best to make things hard for Gay people. Why would that surprise you?

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Now, we in Canada already have same-sex marriage, and there are no legal or public battles I know of left to be fought. So although Arabella is right, marching in the parade and supporting my friends at the blessing of their marriage is the best I can do, and the most many of us "straight but not narrow" folks can do.

John

But that's great, John.

I'm talking about the people who won't even be seen with me in public, even though they want to be my friend in private. Far too many of them in the church.

Doesn't do a lot for a girl's self-esteem.

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quetzalcoatl
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But surely the anti-Christian and anti-religious sentiments which are heard widely today, are not just the result of anti-gay or anti-women stuff in the churches. I mean that there has been a tidal movement against religion as a worldview, and there is plenty of scorn for it amongst various intelligentsia, comedians, newspapers, and other liberal organs.

You could say that it's an inevitable and perhaps even desirable shift in the history of ideas, as the 'melancholy, long, withdrawing roar' goes on.

At the same time, there are other indications that spiritual and religious interest is taking other forms, such as paganism, New Age stuff, Eastern religions and so on.

I don't know whether Christians just need to keep their heads down, hoping that better times will come, or need to go out there, actively and even aggressively taking up the fight, but not in an anti-gay or anti-women direction!

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S. Bacchus
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Well, I guess my experiences have been very different from other posters.

I'm not talking about disagreement with various Church teachings, or even with simple atheism. My experience is of a hatred of Christianity that simply goes far beyond the reasonable, i.e. it cannot be reasoned with. I remember that when I once mentioned that Michael Ramsey, the response I got was 'well, he was probably just a closet pedophile'. Now, that's mercifully pretty atypical, but it does seem that very often being openly gay (especially if 'on scene') most correlate to agreeing with everything Richard Dawkins says about religion.


People look at me like I'm insane when pointing out that Andy Warhol was a devout Eastern-Rite Catholic, or that Oscar Wilde's bail was paid by an Anglican priest. It simply doesn't play into the narrative they've constructed for themselves, a narrative that is based on a limited and sensationalist selection of facts.

I do wonder if my experience is distinctively English. From my travels, I gather that things are slightly different in Germany and perhaps very different in America (although France seems even worse than the UK, in terms of being a country where it might be very hard to be both gay at religious).

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But surely the anti-Christian and anti-religious sentiments which are heard widely today, are not just the result of anti-gay or anti-women stuff in the churches. I mean that there has been a tidal movement against religion as a worldview, and there is plenty of scorn for it amongst various intelligentsia, comedians, newspapers, and other liberal organs.

You could say that it's an inevitable and perhaps even desirable shift in the history of ideas, as the 'melancholy, long, withdrawing roar' goes on.

At the same time, there are other indications that spiritual and religious interest is taking other forms, such as paganism, New Age stuff, Eastern religions and so on.

I don't know whether Christians just need to keep their heads down, hoping that better times will come, or need to go out there, actively and even aggressively taking up the fight, but not in an anti-gay or anti-women direction!

Why are you so sure it's not the anti-women and anti-gay stuff? Do you think the last Synod rejecting women bishops and the House of Lords voting against same sex marriage helped grow the COE?

From UK Census
•Between 2001 and 2011 there has been a decrease in people who identify as Christian (from 71.7 per cent to 59.3 per cent) and an increase in those reporting no religion (from 14.8 per cent to 25.1 per cent). There were increases in the other main religious group categories, with the number of Muslims increasing the most (from 3.0 per cent to 4.8 per cent).

So Christians -12.4
No religion +10.3
Muslim +1.8


That doesn't leave a lot of room for "paganism, New Age stuff, Eastern religions and so on"
No Religion seems to be the growth sector.

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S. Bacchus
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
You exaggerate when you say that the feeling is that all Christian churches are anti-gay

No, I'm afraid I really don't.


quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

People who come out as Gay risk losing their job, custody of their child, being beaten up or killed.

Not, as far as I am aware, in the UK or really anywhere in Western Europe (well, okay, there are unfortunately some instances of homophobic violence, but mercifully few, and I'd feel much safer as a white gay male than a dark-skinned straight man, or a woman of any race or sexual orientation).

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

I'm unaware of any cases where that has happened to Christians who revealed their faith.

Really, because I am definitely aware of cases where that's happened and continues to happen. But again, not in the UK or really anywhere in Western Europe.

[ 30. July 2013, 09:36: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]

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George Spigot

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quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I do wonder if my experience is distinctively English.

Hello and welcome S. Bacchus.

The key word here I think is experience. Your experience of your own and others Christianity looks to be a very positive one. And that's wonderful. As has been pointed out a lot of LGB (LGBT to be more inclusive) groups have a very negative experience of Christianity. Both of these experiences are real. And unfortunately the aggressive bigots are just as Christian* as the welcoming and kind ones.

*(If we agree on the definition of Christian as one who professes belief in Jesus)

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Horseman Bree
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Rachel Held Evans points out that huge numbers of Millennials (not just gays) drop out of "church" all the time now. Figures are based on research by both Barna and Pew, linked in the article.

One of the drivers of dropping out is the antipathy or actual hatred directed at GLBTs, let alone the active opposition to church members actually having a mind that they might use.

Millennials have grown up with openly GLBT friends, and cannot accept being with a group that does not recognize the simple humanity of such friends. The church in the US may be pushing itself into the position of the church in the UK or western Europe by being so homophobic/otherwise nasty.

[ 30. July 2013, 10:47: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]

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quetzalcoatl
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Palimpsest

Well, one reason that I wonder about a more general tide against Christianity and religion, is that I remember how vehemently anti-Christian my grandparents and parents were. And they didn't seem alone in that, in the working class area I grew up in. 50 years ago, I heard loads of adults scorning religion, and treating the local vicar as a complete imbecile.

I don't think this was because the church was anti-gay and anti-women really. One of my grandfathers conceived a violent hatred of Christianity during WWI, for reasons, too complex to discuss here. But he wasn't alone.

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Erroneous Monk
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We do need to say sorry

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
No, I'm afraid I really don't.

Yes you do. As far as I am aware of, no one thinks that the Quakers or the Unitarians are anti-gay.

quote:
Not, as far as I am aware, in the UK or really anywhere in Western Europe
This says more about your awareness than the facts. I have several friends who have been beaten up for being gay (and I live in London before you start that tangent).

But seriously, if you want to know why the overriding value of the Church is seen as bigotry, look at where the Church of England spends its political muscle. The Church has been fighting a strong public action against the merest possibility of gay marriages - and the CofE and RCC are pretty much the leaders of that fight. On literally other moral issue I can think of the message of the Church is mixed. Even on the subject of Usury, we find that the CofE is invested in Wonga.com - and there was the Occupy London/St Pauls fiasco. The Church does not in any way, shape, or form present a clear moral line on the subject of Usury. Or just about anything else except who sticks which tab into which slot. And the CofE threw its toys out of the pram at the mere thought of a celibate gay man becoming a bishop.

Of course, part of that is that as far as I can tell we haven't had a decent Archbishop of Canterbury since Robert Runcie. Carey was a homophobe. Williams was an academic. Webley is a banker.

Being fair to the CofE, it's finally trying to object to usury (and needs to clean its own house). But I literally can not think of a consistent moral line the CofE has tried to take the lead on since Carey became Archbishop that wasn't homophobia. Or possibly tea and cake.

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S. Bacchus
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:


Of course, part of that is that as far as I can tell we haven't had a decent Archbishop of Canterbury since Robert Runcie. Carey was a homophobe. Williams was an academic.

What's wrong with being an academic? I have huge respect for Rowan Williams, who seems to be one of the few voices that's been willing to say that it's not that simple on this issue amongst others. To my mind, a recognition of complexity and a rejection of black and white thinking is a prerequisite of moral courage as well as intellectual integrity. Saintliness isn't easy, because it has to start with a flawed person interacting with other flawed people

I was disappointed about the Jeffrey John debacle. I continue to wish that the Church of England would bless same-sex partnerships. But I don't think that it's healthy or productive (spiritually or politically) to allow that disappointment to fester into blind rage or a crude 'us and them' mentality.

If we start dividing the world into black and white polarities, us and them, the good people and the bad, then I think we're going down a very dangerous route.

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quetzalcoatl
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In fact, doesn't anti-Christian sentiment in England go back at least to 1800? That date is a bit arbitrary, but I think that English working class people began to turn against the C of E in the early 19th century. Of course, there were all the various missions and chapels and so on.

The middle class adhered to it partly as a matter of social fashion and convention. See Jane Austen, where the vicar is often an imbecile, or a social climber, or both.

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marzipan
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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
But I literally can not think of a consistent moral line the CofE has tried to take the lead on since Carey became Archbishop that wasn't homophobia. Or possibly tea and cake.

"The Anglican Inquisition - Tea and Cake or Death!"

(Eddie Izzard)

end tangent

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SvitlanaV2
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To me as an outsider, the CofE comes across as being in a total muddle, rather than homophobic. Also, ironically, the media interest in this subject gives the impression that the CofE has loads of gay priests, which somewhat undermines the idea that it's a totally awful place for gay people to be. Perhaps the CofE entices gay people under false pretences, then cruelly disappoints them. I can see how this might happen.
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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
What's wrong with being an academic?

Of itself? Nothing. Many of my friends are academics.

An academic as Archbishop of Canterbury? Rowan Williams was a disaster because he didn't get heard. The biggest thing being ABC gives is a great big soap box from which to tubthump. He was a square peg in a round hole.

quote:
I was disappointed about the Jeffrey John debacle. I continue to wish that the Church of England would bless same-sex partnerships. But I don't think that it's healthy or productive (spiritually or politically) to allow that disappointment to fester into blind rage or a crude 'us and them' mentality.
But the CofE has made it an 'us and them' issue. As I said, anti-Christian sentiment will start to match Christian homophobia when people start proposing banning Christians from getting married to other Christians as more than a talking point.

When you talk about festering into blind rage, the Church has for more than a decade been the last acceptable bastion of homophobia. They have been kicking people while they were down. And the complaint here is that people don't like them for it?

quote:
If we start dividing the world into black and white polarities, us and them, the good people and the bad, then I think we're going down a very dangerous route.
What do you mean "start"? The side doing almost all the effective kicking here was the Church - and it was punching down rather than up. The dangerous route - the route of preaching from the pullpits, attempting to deny rights, and whipping up prejudice against the other side - has already been marched down with intent. The only question is whether the response now things are more equal will be for those sinned against to turn the other cheek and shame the Church by actually following the teachings of Jesus Christ, or to follow the example set by the Church.

As for 'black and white polarities', such are a necessity for any organisation that has any belief in the existance of hell.

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
To me as an outsider, the CofE comes across as being in a total muddle, rather than homophobic. Also, ironically, the media interest in this subject gives the impression that the CofE has loads of gay priests, which somewhat undermines the idea that it's a totally awful place for gay people to be. Perhaps the CofE entices gay people under false pretences, then cruelly disappoints them. I can see how this might happen.

It is in a total muddle. But it's in the sort of muddle that mainstream society reached about twenty years ago. It's one of the last acceptable bastions of homophobia in Britain - most other organisations would come down hard on the bigoted side involved in the muddle, whereas even the progressive side (to pick on Starbug again as (s)he illustrated the point nicely) are more concerned with identifying with bigots than the harm bigotry does and preventing the bigotry.

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Pomona
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Hi S. Bacchus and welcome to the Ship. I'm a bisexual woman in the Anglican church and have had a mix of experiences. Firstly, I would absolutely say that not all churches are homophobic - the Quakers and UU have already been mentioned, but there are also the Metropolitan Community Churches. I would say that 'on the ground' in Anglican circles, most churches aren't homophobic but can be woolly and on the fence rather than anti-homophobic. If you're a gay man, even Forward In Faith churches will be OK - but speaking as a queer woman, it would be rather different for me. However, it can be really varied in evangelical churches. In my first church, which wasn't quite Prayer Book Evangelical but near enough - used the lectionary and followed CW by the book but distinctly Reformed and evangelical - I felt I could never come out because it was firmly anti-LGBT. My current church is Affirming Catholicism but it's still awkward to talk about sexuality issues with friends from that former church of mine.

However, being LGBT in the Anglican church is one thing, but had I been in say, a Pentecostal church or a Strict Baptist chapel, it would be quite another. There is a lot of ignorance about liberal strands of Christianity within LGBT circles but there is in secular society in general, and I can't blame LGBT people for being angry with Christianity when I've been hurt by the church myself. I don't think your experience is the norm, sadly.

Also, intersectionality is at play here. You are a gay man, white and (I presume) cisgender. That makes you by far the majority in the LGBT community, which frankly is mostly the G and sometimes the L. As someone in the B category, we rarely get heard. It's much easier for white gay men to be in the Anglican or Catholic churches (or any church really), for a queer woman it's much harder. If I was a queer non-white woman? Forget it. Also, trans people are treated as a fetish or a joke by society at large, and most churches just have no idea what to do about trans issues.

A big help has been the Student Christian Movement, which is very inclusive and welcoming. UCCF (who run Christian Unions)....that's a different story. I remember it being very uncomfortable for me in my UCCF-affilated CU at college while doing A Levels. High church saved me, it must be a nightmare to be LGBT and evangelical. I was saying to a trans friend at SCM summer school after a worship session, it was the first time I'd been able to sing evangelical worship songs in a long time because of the bad memories of evangelical churches and homophobia.

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roybart
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S. Bacchus wrote:
quote:
I'm not talking about disagreement with various Church teachings, or even with simple atheism. My experience is of a hatred of Christianity that simply goes far beyond the reasonable, i.e. it cannot be reasoned with. I remember that when I once mentioned that Michael Ramsey, the response I got was 'well, he was probably just a closet pedophile'. Now, that's mercifully pretty atypical, but it does seem that very often being openly gay (especially if 'on scene') most correlate to agreeing with everything Richard Dawkins says about religion.

It sounds like you are talking about a version of what used to be called anti-clericalism.

My grandfather and his brothers, northern Italians of the Garibaldini type, were vociferous in their criticism of priests, the RC hierarchy, and the superstition (as they saw it) of such practices as the veneration of the Virgin Mary, rosaries, etc., which were perceived as something for "women."

I doubt that this holds true of GLBT society at large, at least in the U.S. I wonder whether this response isn't partly an artifact of the people you know, the situations in which you encounter them, and possibly a cultural difference between the UK and the US.

Many of the gay and lesbian people I talk with are indeed anti-clerical. However, many are not. This second group is actually open to religion -- though rarely to traditional Christianity -- in a number of ways, including -- sympathy for those who yearn for spiritual experience, puzzled respect for and/or frustration with those who continue to worship in RC and other anti-gay churches, curiosity about Christian churches which are in fact welcoming to glbt people and make public witness of this.

I've noticed a pattern among those who return to Christian worship. Those from a strong sacramental tradition (lapsed RCs and Episcopalians) are attracted to the Episcopal Church (those congregations that are welcoming, which are probably still a minority). I know several survivors of various fundamentalist families and traditions; some make the journey to the Episcopal Church, while others may be happier with the Metropolitan Community Church, which is definitely "Christian" in the part of the world where I live, or Unitarian-Universalist, which is minimally Christian. I have even heard of gay churches (urban) which mimic the fervor and worship styles of the anti-gay megachurches.

And, of course, there are the many people who simply do not care about what religious people believe, as long as they do not impose their beliefs on others. That is the essence of the secularization (much discussed and lamented on SofF). It seems very difficult for dedicated Christians to absorb this -- that many (possibly most) simply don't find Christian theology and moral preachments relevant to anything much at all. This, this might explain at least some of your frustrating encounters with people who "cannot be reasoned with." Perhaps they are simply not interested in the conversation.

The same holds true of atheism. They are few philosophically committed atheists among the gay people I have talked with. "Agnostic" would be a better label for most. However, many traditional Christians think of agnosticism exclusively in negative terms -- as a conscious, deliberate rejection of Christianity. They cannot see the distinctions between various kinds of agnosticism. Traditional Christianity doesn't interest the majority of people (British and American) today, while the belief in a vague and benign God definitely does.

This residual yearning towards contact with God (including God as incarnated in Jesus) should be treated as an opportunity for Christian churches. Something worth nurturing. One might even argue that Christianity -- given its mission of bringing people to know and follow Christ -- has a moral obligation to reach out to everyone.

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S. Bacchus
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
the media interest in this subject gives the impression that the CofE has loads of gay priests, which somewhat undermines the idea that it's a totally awful place for gay people to be.

That's not just the media, though. Male Anglican priests and ordinands are, in my experience (which may not be normative), vastly more likely to be gay than the general population. I don't know nearly as many female priests or ordinands, but in my more limited sample would suggest that lesbians and bisexual women are perhaps slightly overrepresented. Of course, the degrees to which they're open about their sexualities vary quite a bit. Perhaps unsurprisingly the new generation of millennial ordinands and young curates seem to be the most open about their same-sex partners.

Jade Constable raises some interesting and important points. I deliberately didn't go into trans issues (in fact, I changed 'LGBT' to just LGB at the last minute) because I don't really feel that I'm in a position to comment on that.

roybart, I think I agree with most of your thoughtful and thought-provoking post, but this bit surprised me:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Those from a strong sacramental tradition (lapsed RCs and Episcopalians) are attracted to the Episcopal Church (those congregations that are welcoming, which are probably still a minority). [/QB]

My impression, based both on what I've read and on limited personal experience, was that the US Episcopal Church and the vast majority of its parishes were extremely welcoming and on-board with LGBT issues, what with having openly gay bishops and blessing same-sex unions and all.

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Liopleurodon

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What you have to remember is that many, many LGBT people have been badly hurt by religious people. Or love someone who's been badly hurt. For many people it's the kind of pain that we have long memories about. It may never really go away. I'm really glad that that hasn't happened to you, but for those of us it has happened to, it can become very difficult to have a positive attitude towards religion. Is it fair to all the good religious folks out there who wouldn't act like the hurtful person did? In a strict sense, no. But it is understandable.

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Pomona
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# 17175

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Even Millenial ordinands can't have a sexual relationship with their partner! Anglican priests can have civil partnerships but still have to be celibate, and depending on one's bishop can face a lot of interrogation on the nature of their relationship.

Also it should be pointed out that a lot of Millenial ordinands are conservative evangelicals, and youth does not guarantee liberalism. Most LGBT clergy I know are middle-aged, middle-class gay men. Most LGBT Christians I know are traddy Anglo-Catholics (mostly white gay men who are opposed to OoW - thanks for the support guys [Roll Eyes] ), I only know one from a more Reformed church (my trans friend I mentioned earlier, who is URC).

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Carex
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# 9643

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
No, I'm afraid I really don't.

Yes you do. As far as I am aware of, no one thinks that the Quakers or the Unitarians are anti-gay.


That may be true, but it does NOT imply that everyone knows they are supportive of gays. A large number of people will have no idea what they think, or even that such groups exist. In this case, "I can't think of any such groups" can also be correct if the speaker doesn't think about the Quakers and Unitarians.


(And that is before you get into the discussion whether the Unitarians are Christian, and the views of the Evangelical Quakers, who are particularly strong in my area.)

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S. Bacchus
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# 17778

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Even Millenial ordinands can't have a sexual relationship with their partner!

Correction: they can't let it be known that they are in a sexual relationship. Ans to preempt the inevitable question: yes, there's a lot of hypocrisy forced upon people by the church hierarchy, and yes a bit more honesty would be welcome.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Also it should be pointed out that a lot of Millenial ordinands are conservative evangelicals,

I mentioned my experience may not be normative. For one thing, I know exactly one graduate of Wycliffe (who isn't actually an Evangelical of any sort as far as I can tell) and one from Cranmer. The rest of the clergy and ordinands I know were (or are) all at Ridley Hall, Cuddesdon, St Stephen's House, Mirfield, or Wescott. That doubtless colours things at least a bit.


quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

and youth does not guarantee liberalism.

Not on all issues, but I think there is a strong correlation on this issue.

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Most LGBT clergy I know are middle-aged, middle-class gay men. Most LGBT Christians I know are traddy Anglo-Catholics (mostly white gay men who are opposed to OoW - thanks for the support guys [Roll Eyes] ), I only know one from a more Reformed church (my trans friend I mentioned earlier, who is URC).

Most I know are a mixture of more or less traddy Anglo-Catholics (many, but not all or perhaps even most, of them opposed to ordination of women), liberal Anglicans, or Roman Catholics, with smaller smatterings of URC and Eastern Orthodox.

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Justinian
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# 5357

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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
That may be true, but it does NOT imply that everyone knows they are supportive of gays. A large number of people will have no idea what they think, or even that such groups exist. In this case, "I can't think of any such groups" can also be correct if the speaker doesn't think about the Quakers and Unitarians.

Point. And given that the RCC and the CofE have, on the gay the subject of gay rights, been resembling Canute* as of late, trying to hold back the tide of justice, I'm not surprised the beliefs about them are hardening.

* I know. Canute was intending to demonstrate that he couldn't do that with a rather more physical tide.

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