|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Measles Outbreak at Anti-Vaccination Church
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
From the "who would ever have guessed?" files, a Texas megachurch with a history of promoting the false MMR vaccine-autism link suffers an outbreak of measles.
quote:
The latest measles outbreak is in Texas, where the virus has sickened 25 people, most of whom are members or visitors of a church led by the daughter of televangelist Kenneth Copeland.
Fifteen of the measles cases are centered around Eagle Mountain International Church in Newark, Texas, whose senior pastor, Terri Pearsons, has previously been critical of measles vaccinations.
The outbreak was started by a visitor to the church who had recently traveled to a country where measles remains common, according to Tarrant County Public Health spokesman Al Roy.
Those sickened by measles include nine children and six adults, ranging in age from 4 months old to 44 years old. At least 12 of those infected were not fully immunized against measles, Roy says. The other patients have no record of being vaccinated. The 4-month-old is too young to have been received the measles vaccine, which is typically given at 1, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
"This is a classic example of how measles is being reintroduced," said William Schaffner, an infectious disease expert and professor at the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Nashville.
Other news accounts can be found at Forbes and Yahoo.
As noted in the Dallas Observer's blog, there's been a bit of a change in tune from the Copeland Ministries camp regarding the wisdom of vaccination.
quote:
Pearsons is the eldest daughter of megapastor Kenneth Copeland, and her church is one of the cornerstones of Kenneth Copeland Ministries, his sprawling evangelical empire. He's far from the most vocal proponent of the discredited theory that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine causes autism, but, between his advocacy of faith healing and his promotion of the vaccine-autism link on his online talk show, he's not exactly urging his flock to get their recommended shots.
That left his daughter doing some nifty theological footwork in last week's sermon as she struggled to explain how believers should trust their health to both God and medical professionals.
As the blog snarkily notes the advice on getting vaccinated "probably would have been more helpful two months ago".
So to what extent should people in authority (like megapastors) be held accountable for endangering people's lives with their advice? It's fairly obvious from the quick turn-around on vaccination that they're not true believers, just opportunistic hacks stoking a popular paranoia. Yes, I realize there probably won't be any legal consequences for the Copeland Ministries folks, nor should there be, but at the very least shouldn't polite society regard them as pariahs? I mean, if "deliberately working to bring back previously eradicated and potentially deadly diseases" doesn't earn you pariah status, what does it take?
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Yeah, but before we start blaming evangelical teaching on 20 people getting spots, let's remind ourselves that not many months ago half of South Wales went down with the same thing and some bloke even died.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Yeah, but before we start blaming evangelical teaching on 20 people getting spots, let's remind ourselves that not many months ago half of South Wales went down with the same thing and some bloke even died.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Yeah, but before we start blaming evangelical teaching on 20 people getting spots, let's remind ourselves that not many months ago half of South Wales went down with the same thing and some bloke even died.
Yeah, that was mentioned (and linked to) in the Forbes article.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
Hmm, I never noticed that link, sorry. Read it now and further links. So, because he preaches that Christ can heal, because he - along with many secular opinion-formers at the time - was of the opinion there was a link between measles and autism, this is big news?
I think it says more about a need, a desire, to look for opportunities to condemn evangelicals than it does about Copeland (of whom, I am not a big fan).
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
The anti-intellectual, anti-science agenda is bad whether it comes from secular or religious sources.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hmm, I never noticed that link, sorry. Read it now and further links. So, because he preaches that Christ can heal, because he - along with many secular opinion-formers at the time - was of the opinion there was a link between measles and autism, this is big news?
Depends on what you mean by "at the time". Anyone still promoting the vaccine-autism link after 2010 (at the very latest) was in definite "crank" territory, not in amongst "secular opinion-formers".
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Those sickened by measles include nine children and six adults, ranging in age from 4 months old to 44 years old. At least 12 of those infected were not fully immunized against measles, Roy says. The other patients have no record of being vaccinated. The 4-month-old is too young to have been received the measles vaccine, which is typically given at 1, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Measles can be very nasty. May the Lord have mercy on all concerned.
[ 26. August 2013, 15:57: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So to what extent should people in authority (like megapastors) be held accountable for endangering people's lives with their advice?
The responsibility for vaccinating a child rests with its parents. Others can advise, but only parents have the right to decide on this.
There is a Roman statement on this issue which would probably take me a million years to find, which says that parents have to take moral responsibility for any harm which is caused to their children if they fail to adequately vaccinate them.
At the same time it says that all use or sanction of vaccinations from dubious source materials (ie aborted foetuses) are intrinsically evil, or somesuch nonsense.
How Catholics are supposed to reconcile these two points of view is beyond me.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So to what extent should people in authority (like megapastors) be held accountable for endangering people's lives with their advice?
The responsibility for vaccinating a child rests with its parents. Others can advise, but only parents have the right to decide on this.
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Clearly, the U.S. policy of separating church and state isn't sufficient. We need a policy which separates church and science (sorry, followers of Jesus Christ, Scientist).
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I think the problem, Mudfrog, is that it's people like Copeland who give evangelicalism in general a bad name in the first place.
I'll concede that some people need little excuse to bash evangelicals, Catholics or any other forms of traditional or conservative Christianity.
So it's hardly surprising that someone's going to put the boot in whenever outfits like this mess up. The surprise is that it doesn't happen more often.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Clearly, the U.S. policy of separating church and state isn't sufficient. We need a policy which separates church and science (sorry, followers of Jesus Christ, Scientist).
Surely the problem is that the church has, in this case, already separated itself from science?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
THIS!
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
It appears the idea of a link between autism and MMR shots came from a secret MI-6 agent, Andrew Wakefield. It's bad enough that sneaky John Bulls, acting on orders from deep in the very bowels of the upper echelons of their sinister government are trying to hurt Americans, but there are probably Brits who are low enough to stand there and deny it. And the insidious nature of it all! I asked the lady behind the counter at the convenience store what she knew about MI-6 agent Wakefield and his orders to begin a disinformation campaign designed to hurt the youth of America. She acted like she didn't have the foggiest idea what I was talking about. Yeah, right. I turned her in. Americans suffer and the queen laughs. Chaps my ass.
Seriously, having a mumps vaccine when I was a lad would have been cool and it was nice to miss seeing the kids all avoid mumps and measles because of the vaccine.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
I ought not be posting at 1AM. It was nice to miss seeing the kids go through mumps and measles, I mean.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
So to what extent should people in authority (like megapastors) be held accountable for endangering people's lives with their advice?
The responsibility for vaccinating a child rests with its parents. Others can advise, but only parents have the right to decide on this.
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
Unless you are advocating forced vaccination of every child, parents will remain responsible for making decisions about their own children.
Some will make the right decision, some will not. Some will take advice from doctors, some from friends, some from their pastors. None of these is illegal; parents have the right to consult whoever they like, and base their decision on whatever they like. They can throw a die, toss a coin, open the Bible at a random page or speak to a representative of the medical profession.
The responsibility remains with the parents; they get to choose, and they get to live with the consequences of that choice. We can huff and puff about 'destructive behaviour' all we like; parents choose, parents are responsible.
[ 27. August 2013, 06:40: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
THIS!
I still do not understand this comment.
Parents can ask whoever they like about vaccination. Asking opinions does not constitute abdicating responsibility for their child to anyone else.
These parents did the best they could, given the information they had. And, as I said above, unless the US or any other country proposes mandatory vaccination, they had the right to choose for their children. We can hope that others will learn from their experience. No doubt some will, and equally certainly some will not.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Two points come to mind.
1. It's not precisely clear from the articles whether the Pastor of this church was against all vaccines ("because it's a sin not to trust the Lord for your health, you know") and, by implication, anti-medication in general; or whether he had bought the much more specific "street clear of the measles vaccine because it causes autism" strophe.
If the first, then he is like generations of snake-handlers whose leadership inevitably condemns some to a premature death through misplaced faith and dubious exegesis. If the latter, he is guilty of promulgating poor science - but possibly in good faith, as that viewpoint had been strongly pressed by apparently credit-worthy advocates. Those who have more knowledge of the situation can judge for themselves.
2. quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
No, but I wonder if these churches may attract a disproportionate number of people who are likely to uncritically take the Pastor's words as "gospel" rather than evaluating them with care. Such Pastors need to be doubly careful of what they say ... which may project an image of uncertainty and so diminish their appeal!
[ 27. August 2013, 07:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
argona
Shipmate
# 14037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
The responsibility remains with the parents; they get to choose, and they get to live with the consequences of that choice.
While their kids, of course, might die with the consequences.
Apparently the guy in South Wales who died from measles was at the age to be vaccinated before the autism scare was putting parents off, so, dreadful though his loss was, it's not relevant to this issue.
However, measles is a potentially fatal disease and if vaccination rates fall sufficiently to allow an epidemic, there's no doubt that children will die. I would be happy to see in jail anyone - pastor, medic or media person, who has spread disinformation that makes this more likely.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
argona
Shipmate
# 14037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the latter, he is guilty of promulgating poor science - but possibly in good faith, as that viewpoint had been strongly pressed by apparently credit-worthy advocates. Those who have more knowledge of the situation can judge for themselves.
The compromised 'science' alleging a link between autism and the MMR vaccine has been exposed for some time now. There's no excuse for not understanding that.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Clearly, the U.S. policy of separating church and state isn't sufficient. We need a policy which separates church and science (sorry, followers of Jesus Christ, Scientist).
Surely the problem is that the church has, in this case, already separated itself from science?
We also need to separate journalism from science in that case - from having any opinion whatsoever in fact - because in the UK the whole thing about 'don't get your babies immunised' was led by column inches from journalists who highlighted the 1998 report in the Lancet linking the two issues of immunisation and autism.
The reporting was the factor that scared many people to refuse the injections. The report was published in 1998, the investigation didn't start until 2004 and the article was finally discredited only in 2010.
What are lay-people supposed to do?
The church is just another victim of popular journalism that screams 'the sky is falling!'
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
The compromised 'science' alleging a link between autism and the MMR vaccine has been exposed for some time now. There's no excuse for not understanding that.
While I agree with your assessment of the vaccination situation, the sad fact is that science has become increasingly politicized and mired in advocacy. As a result, the authority of scientific claims has been compromised across the board. Most folks are not really equipped to evaluate the validity of particular claims made that are supposedly based on unbiased research. As a result, there is justifiably reduced credence in all such claims. Of course, that doesn't justify people getting their factual information from some quack with a pulpit...
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
There's been an outbreak in South Wales since November infecting about 200 people with measles. 8,500 children are also at risk of measles, all of them unnecessarily. I don't hold churches responsible for any of it round here, and we have our share of wacky pastors.
Oh, and 1,219 isn't half the population of South Wales. I don't know where Mudfrog's "half the population' figure comes from. Maybe half the population was in a paddy about it. I know quite a few parents who were taken in by the combination of Wakefield's faked report, bad journalism and poor response from the public health authorities.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
It appears the idea of a link between autism and MMR shots came from a secret MI-6 agent, Andrew Wakefield. It's bad enough that sneaky John Bulls, acting on orders from deep in the very bowels of the upper echelons of their sinister government are trying to hurt Americans, but there are probably Brits who are low enough to stand there and deny it. And the insidious nature of it all! I asked the lady behind the counter at the convenience store what she knew about MI-6 agent Wakefield and his orders to begin a disinformation campaign designed to hurt the youth of America. She acted like she didn't have the foggiest idea what I was talking about. Yeah, right. I turned her in. Americans suffer and the queen laughs. Chaps my ass.
Seriously, having a mumps vaccine when I was a lad would have been cool and it was nice to miss seeing the kids all avoid mumps and measles because of the vaccine.
A secret MI6 agent? Where did you get that information from?
This is who he is.
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There's been an outbreak in South Wales since November infecting about 200 people with measles. 8,500 children are also at risk of measles, all of them unnecessarily.
Oh, and 1,219 isn't half the population of South Wales. I don't know where Mudfrog's "half the population' figure comes from.
Hyperbole. Like when you say 'the whole town was talking about the team's bad performance.'
No they weren't but it makes a point.
[ 27. August 2013, 12:30: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
The responsibility remains with the parents; they get to choose, and they get to live with the consequences of that choice.
While their kids, of course, might die with the consequences.
Apparently the guy in South Wales who died from measles was at the age to be vaccinated before the autism scare was putting parents off, so, dreadful though his loss was, it's not relevant to this issue.
However, measles is a potentially fatal disease and if vaccination rates fall sufficiently to allow an epidemic, there's no doubt that children will die. I would be happy to see in jail anyone - pastor, medic or media person, who has spread disinformation that makes this more likely.
I am afraid that would be impossible to prove.
Once again, the options are either to let parents chose, or to have mandatory vaccination, presumably on the grounds that most parents are too dim to make the right choices all the time.
And what other choices will we then take away from said dim parents?
It really is not possible to go down that road, imo.
[ 27. August 2013, 13:19: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
The responsibility for vaccinating a child rests with its parents. Others can advise, but only parents have the right to decide on this.
I've never been a fan of "it's your fault for believing my lies" as a justification for destructive behavior.
I fail to see the relevance of that comment.
It's a response to your apparent point that it's okay to spread destructive lies (vaccinating your kids will harm them!) because someone else (in this case the parents) is responsible for making the decision involved. This position is counter to most ethical systems, which tend to frown on "bearing false witness".
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
The responsibility remains with the parents; they get to choose, and they get to live with the consequences of that choice.
Not necessarily. For example, if parents decided that they wanted their child vaccinated even though she was younger than the minimum age to receive the vaccine (as was one of the patients in the story discussed) I doubt they'd be able to find a doctor willing to commit medical malpractice by administering it. That's the thing about vaccination programs. They protect not just the vaccinated but also those who, for a variety of medical reasons, cannot receive the vaccine themselves. So in this case there's a child suffering the consequences of some other parents' decision.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If the latter, he is guilty of promulgating poor science - but possibly in good faith, as that viewpoint had been strongly pressed by apparently credit-worthy advocates. Those who have more knowledge of the situation can judge for themselves.
The compromised 'science' alleging a link between autism and the MMR vaccine has been exposed for some time now. There's no excuse for not understanding that.
Not only that - but people are refusing to vaccinate their children from diseases that kill, not just the person who contracts it but the community due to their contagious nature, because of a risk of a condition that does not kill and that is not contagious. I suppose these people prefer a dead child to an autistic one.
The whole "debate" (in quotes because as you say the science is fairly clear) deeply bothers me because it treats autism as the very worst thing that can happen to a child. If I were autistic or had an autistic family member I'd be extremely offended by the way this whole topic is discussed.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A secret MI6 agent? Where did you get that information from?
Of course he was a secret MI6 agent. What other kind are there? Do you really think they would send flyers out to us telling us who the queen's evil henchmen are?
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
No, it's MI5 who do that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
MI5 is the queen's henchmen on UK soil and MI6 is the queen's henchmen sent to torment the rest of us, isn't it?
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
If I were autistic or had an autistic family member I'd be extremely offended by the way this whole topic is discussed.
Oh yes. We are.
--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Unless you are advocating forced vaccination of every child, parents will remain responsible for making decisions about their own children.
I'm advocating that.
Choosing not to vaccinate a child has consequences that affect other people:
- It affects the child, who is now at risk for deadly diseases. Putting children at risk like that is a form of child abuse, and in other abusive situations the state steps in…
- It affects people who cannot have the vaccination for medical reasons, such as due to allergies or a weakened immune system. They need herd immunity in order to avoid contracting disease, which means everyone who can have the vaccination should do.
The second point is especially relevant: choosing not to vaccinate a child doesn't just harm your sprog, it can harm other vulnerable people too. Why should parents be allowed to make a choice that does that?
[Edited to fix code.]
[ 27. August 2013, 16:36: Message edited by: Amorya ]
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Unless you are advocating forced vaccination of every child, parents will remain responsible for making decisions about their own children.
I'm advocating that.
Choosing not to vaccinate a child has consequences that affect other people:
I agree. The whole "forcing parents" tripe is amusing and annoying simultaneously.
We have a plethora of rules describing how one is allowed to treat one's child. This is not, and should not be, the question. The question is where to draw the line. And playing with the lives of you children and other people's children is past that the line.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Not only that - but people are refusing to vaccinate their children from diseases that kill, not just the person who contracts it but the community due to their contagious nature, because of a risk of a condition that does not kill and that is not contagious. I suppose these people prefer a dead child to an autistic one.
The problem is that because of good prevention by vaccination for so long people have forgotten that measles can kill and think of it as a couple of weeks with spots.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
argona
Shipmate
# 14037
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A secret MI6 agent? Where did you get that information from?
Of course he was a secret MI6 agent. What other kind are there? Do you really think they would send flyers out to us telling us who the queen's evil henchmen are?
Mere Nick, I'm deeply concerned that you apparently have evidence that my country plans to destroy American youth. Please send details, though preferably not online. Find a pigeon.
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
This will give them a salutary lesson on moral seriousness.
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
Mere Nick, I'm deeply concerned that you apparently have evidence that my country plans to destroy American youth. Please send details, though preferably not online. Find a pigeon.
Tsk, tsk; amateurs.
If you want a message conveyed to you by pigeon, then I am afraid it is incumbent on you to supply the pigeon.
British pigeons fly home, not to America. Most sensible of them.
[ 27. August 2013, 17:59: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Unless you are advocating forced vaccination of every child, parents will remain responsible for making decisions about their own children.
I'm advocating that.
Fair enough.
I don't think it will happen, but it is a perfectly valid pov.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Unless you are advocating forced vaccination of every child, parents will remain responsible for making decisions about their own children.
I'm advocating that.
Choosing not to vaccinate a child has consequences that affect other people:
I agree. The whole "forcing parents" tripe is amusing and annoying simultaneously.
How marvellous.
It is also the law, in the UK at least. I have no idea what other countries say on this matter, but I would be surprised if any try to enforce medical procedures against the wishes of the parents; it may even contravene the Human Rights Act, for all I know (which is not much, admittedly)
Parents have the right to choose whether or not to vaccinate their child, inter alia, unless a court decides they are not fit to make such decisions. And a court cannot make that determination without good reason to do so.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Parents have the right to choose whether or not to vaccinate their child, inter alia, unless a court decides they are not fit to make such decisions. And a court cannot make that determination without good reason to do so.
As I noted above that's not always the case. For example, the state will typically prevent parents from having a vaccine administered to their child if that child is below the minimum age for that particular vaccine.
And I'm still waiting to hear how you get from "parents are permitted to make medical decisions for their children" to "therefore it's okay to lie to them about those medical decisions". There seem to be numerous leaps of logic there.
[ 27. August 2013, 18:19: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
A statistic from Wikipedia: 158,000 human beings died of measles in the year 2011.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
I don't have much patience for anti-vac parents...I love my Amish neighbors, but their lackadaisical and attitude toward life-threatening but easily preventable diseases (that is somewhat inconsistently paired with an endless obsession with sometimes egregious examples of exploitative medical quackery)drives me crazy. And people who have actually enjoyed at least a minimal exposure to modern ideas about disease processes and prevention, but who turn around and reject those -- whether members of some contemporary sect or crunchy-granola Waldorf parents -- I think I find these people even more frustrating and annoying. My parents were born in the 20's and survived epidemics of diseases like diptheria, polio, scarlet fever -- my mother almost died from diptheria and scarlet fever, all within a couple of years, and both parents suffered from "hard" measles, and they had peers who died or were crippled...they were both so grateful for the advent of vaccine; I remember, while being whiny about getting my polio vaccine, my mom telling me about her visiting a polio ward as a young woman and being utterly devastated by the crippled chldren and rows of patients permanently encased in iron lungs. That made an impression, as well as my mom's lingering afteraffects from her own childhood illnesses.
As far as a religious commitment to non-vaccination -- I can't really imagine a God who would demand that I expose children to preventable illnesses as a matter of faith any more than i'd buy the idea of a God who'd want me to leap off a precipice in order to demonstrate my trust. it's certainly not the God I find in the Gospel accounts of Jesus.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by argona:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
The responsibility remains with the parents; they get to choose, and they get to live with the consequences of that choice.
While their kids, of course, might die with the consequences.
Apparently the guy in South Wales who died from measles was at the age to be vaccinated before the autism scare was putting parents off, so, dreadful though his loss was, it's not relevant to this issue.
However, measles is a potentially fatal disease and if vaccination rates fall sufficiently to allow an epidemic, there's no doubt that children will die. I would be happy to see in jail anyone - pastor, medic or media person, who has spread disinformation that makes this more likely.
I am afraid that would be impossible to prove.
Once again, the options are either to let parents chose, or to have mandatory vaccination, presumably on the grounds that most parents are too dim to make the right choices all the time.
And what other choices will we then take away from said dim parents?
It really is not possible to go down that road, imo.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
In Ontario, all students proof require two MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) vaccines in order to attend public (government) schools.
Mandatory vaccination in the form of defacto compulsion has been used in North America for decades.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
|
Posted
never did me any harm
--------------------
"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
In my US state (and in many others), you either have to have the full set of vaccines to attend public school, or attest that you have a religious opposition to vaccines. "I think they cause MMR" is not a valid excuse in this state. OTOH, "Church of the Magic Crystal Fairy" would be OK if you sounded genuine.
The full set is MMR, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Polio, Chicken Pox, Whooping Cough, and Hepatitis B.
If you claim a religious exemption, and there is an outbreak of one of the illnesses, your child will be sent home until the outbreak is over.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Clearly, the U.S. policy of separating church and state isn't sufficient. We need a policy which separates church and science (sorry, followers of Jesus Christ, Scientist).
Surely the problem is that the church has, in this case, already separated itself from science?
Sorry for long absence; RL & all that.
My efforts at pithiness led to unclarity. What I think is this: religious authorities ought to refrain from providing direction in matters where they have neither expertise nor credentials.
Isn't this what we have experts for? To provide us with the benefits of their better-informed, more detailed understanding of their own fields?
(Albeit with the caveat posted above that what we call "science" -- for most of us laypeeps, this boils down to media reports on science -- has become increasingly politicized, perhaps especially in the U.S.)
If you want expert theological guidance, you may be unwise to seek that from your auto mechanic or hair stylist (unless she or he has the relevant training, and is supporting him/herself with haircutting and car repair for lack of a "call").
If you want expert medical guidance about the potential efficacy and/or risks of MMR vaccination, you should ignore what your clergy says on the matter (unless s/he is also a medical researcher with impeccable credentials). Better still, recognize that your clergyperson is not the appropriate source from whom to seek such advice. And even better than that, let's "inspire" clergy to shut the fuck up on matters in which they have no training, experience, or credentials.
And now let's move on to the meedja, and the complaint I am hearing aired in half the threads I visit: It's All The Meedja's Fault, for reporting badly, skewedly, incompletely, etc. etc.
Bullshit.
When What's-His-Face planted his specious and now discredited "information" on the alleged link between vaccination and autism, he did so in a highly respected professional/scholarly journal which has a longstanding record of responsible publication. I'm personally familiar solely with the Lancet's reputation, not its content; I lack the training and experience to read that content with much comprehension. Presumably, as a reputable scholarly journal, the Lancet has its own peer-review board, which has to have given the offending article a green light for publication.
Meanwhile, I and laypeeps like me rely on media reports on what appears in the Lancet, not on the journal itself.
If there's blame to be laid here, the peer-review board is where to lay it, not with the media who reported on this startling finding.
Reporting on startling findings is virtually the definition of "news;" it's the media's job to bring us laypeeps this material in terms we can understand.
What would have happened if the media hadn't reported this? Let's speculate:
Some number of responsible family physicians with busy practices (and hence no time for investigating startling findings) might have, on the basis of their trust in the Lancet's review processes and reputation, begun withholding vaccines from their young patients, with devastating results.
Instead, laypeeps, relying on the media's reports -- and few reporters are themselves scientists -- began requesting their physicians to withhold vaccinations, and this is exactly what led to further investigation and the ultimate unmasking of Wakefield's fraud.
The very fact that this pressure came from non-experts, who read about the startling finding in the media, is what prompted further investigation.
In short, mass media is not to blame, but to be congratulated for doing exactly what it's meant to do: laying issues before the public in ways that bring pressure for further investigation. This enables responsible parties to unmask fraud or other forms of malfeasance.
Blaming the vaccination mess on the media is a total cop-out. The media get things right and wrong in about the same proportion as the rest of us. But the fact is, the media's brave enough to do this in full view of everybody, and few of us would know a thing about the vaccination mess but for the media's reportage. So please: cut the crap. Stop blaming the media for simply doing its job.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
