|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Doing theology in church ...
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
The clergy/laity divide thread has triggered a thought for a new one ... on the whole issue of 'doing theology' in the context of the local church rather than (necessarily) in separate seminaries etc.
I remember hearing Dr Andrew Walker (who sometimes writes editorials for SoF) at a conference saying that he'd really like to see theology being done at a local church level rather than in specialist academic departments.
I was struck by this at the time and found myself wondering what such a programme would look like.
I'm not thinking of evangelistic 'courses' like Alpha or spiritual-growth thingummies such as Corsillo et al ... but rather about some kind of more systematic theology conducted by some means at local church level.
Does such a thing exist? if so, where?
What resources would be needed? What might such a programme cover?
Would it even be feasible?
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Sounds very much like the various 'ministry training courses' run by evangelicals (from a mix of denominations). I haven't seen a non-evangelical version, but I took part in the South Coast Ministry Training Course when I lived in Sussex. It was £100 for the year and my church (Reformed-influenced evangelical Anglican) covered my fees. Similar courses seem to be available across the country - the ministry you're trained for is very much lay ministry by the way, it's not intended to lead on to ordination (it might not be a coincidence that my fellow course-mates had a very low ecclesiology and didn't consider ordination to be important anyway).
The vicar of my church also ran basic Hebrew courses and our church also held a series of discussions on issues such as science and faith co-existing. It was quite normal to be discussing studying theology at a lay level during after-church coffee and during home groups. I must say that this was one of the most positive aspects of my former church, and I do wish that my current church took a similar approach. Obviously the theological emphasis would be different, but that shouldn't matter.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
I think it would look a lot like the Education for Ministry courses I've seen run successfully in The Episcopal Church.
http://www.efmuk.org.uk/aboutefm.html
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
Okay, I'll bite.
Please explain to me what this "doing theology" business is. Then I can offer an opinion.
Right of the rip, though, I'd say that we "do" theology every time we celebrate the mass or read the office. Every time we open the dining room for the feeding program, convene the Sunday School, or visit those in hospital or prison.
How is this different to "doing theology?" I'm being intentionally obtuse, I know, but I still would like a description of "doing theology."
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
ISTM that local and national theological colleges and universities are increasingly keen to encourage Christian laypeople to participate in their courses and workshops. All sorts of leaflets and course information used to find their way to my old church. The latest issue of the local 'Ecumenical News' includes a flyer for postgrad degrees and diplomas in Theology and Religion.
The local black-led Wesleyan Holiness church once offered a course in NT Greek. It was open to all, but I don't know what the take-up was like. More broadly, a couple of decades ago there were concerted attempts to generate lay reflection on urban Black theology in both black-led and mainstream churches, attempts that emanated from two or three theological colleges around the country. The momentum for that work has slowed down now, although a lot of research has been done.
Speaking personally, I'd appreciate a church-based or ecumenical reading group that approached theology through culture, especially literature. Maybe one day I'll find a church where I could help to set up something like this. But I'm not holding my breath.
[ 16. August 2013, 19:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Svitlana, looking at theology in/though literature sounds wonderful. Film would also be interesting.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
I think it would look a lot like the Education for Ministry courses I've seen run successfully in The Episcopal Church.
http://www.efmuk.org.uk/aboutefm.html
I was going to cite this but you beat me to it. As a graduate of this program I found it very beneficial to my growth as a Christian in a number of ways. I note that on the UK website they call it "Exploring Faith Matters" -- same acronym. Either name is good.
[ 16. August 2013, 19:58: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
--------------------
God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
|
Posted
The EfM course seems to be a great course to me - I've been to an EfM group run by a friend in the US (Memphis, TN) and was interested to see if there were any groups running in the London (UK) area. I was shocked to discover that there were no groups at all operating in Greater London! Admittedly that was a few years back and things may have changed now, but it's sad that there isn't more enthusiasm for this course from the CofE.
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
--------------------
My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Fair points, Silent Acolyte.
I might find it hard to articulate what I mean, but perhaps if I adopted an apophatic approach and described what I DON'T have in mind, it might help ...
I'm thinking of a more systematic approach than one might get through simply participating in the services. Sure, I accept that by participating in public worship, the eucharist we are 'doing theology' too ... even though, as I'm sure you'll agree, it is possible to find people who do such things who are to some extent theologically illiterate. Shoot, I once found myself trying to explain the basics of RC doctrine - and indeed general Christian doctrine per se - to a Roman Catholic and I'm not a Catholic ...
I could expand on that, but it would be a tangent and I'm not singling out the RCs here, one could find Anglicans and others who are very poorly catechised.
So, I'm thinking of something:
- That covers the 'basics' but also engages with contemporary issues and developments.
- That is neither 'it's-all-about-me-and-Jesus-and-how-that-makes-me-feel' nor, necessarily, a kind of devotional lectio-divina or spiritual-director thing.
- That somehow emanates organically out of the particular context or setting - rather than being an off-the-shelf package or solution.
- That isn't just there to serve the particular penchant or leanings of the leaders/ministers/clergy.
On the more cataphatic side, it would be something:
- That covers the 'basics' but also engages with contemporary issues and developments.
- That somehow emanates organically out of the particular context or setting - rather than being an off-the-shelf package or solution.
- That is genuinely eirenic and draws from a range of sources and
- That asks the hard questions.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Svitlana, looking at theology in/though literature sounds wonderful. Film would also be interesting.
Film would probably be more popular.
There's a church in Birmingham that sometimes uses film in evening meetings to generate discussion with the aim of developing 'a radical, Social Gospel agenda for the 21st century'. I went along once or twice ages ago before the discussion element had been added. Maybe I should pop along again to see how it works now.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
I used to belong to a university-town church that had a discussion group called "Issues in Contemporary Theology" -- the teacher, a retired pastor who taught a similar class at the local community college, pretty much replicated that class in a briefer, more casual form. It generated some good conversation, although we had a few concrete thinkers in class who just couldn't tolerate some of the ideas and wound up flouncing off. (It's difficult, it seems, for some people to make a distinction between religious ideas talked about in a casual, what-if way in a small group and religious ideas stamped with the imprimatur of the church body in question; so that just bringing them up produces much anxiety and anger.)
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
FIEC's Learn2Lead
Is that going to be relevant to laity who want to study theology but not become leaders? Genuine question. Also, depending on the church, would women be excluded from studying a leadership course?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
Yes, but sermons can only do so much - particularly in churches (like mine) which have 10-minute sermons. Also, sermons are going to be based on the readings for the day, which aren't going to cover all aspects of theology.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
Yes, but sermons can only do so much - particularly in churches (like mine) which have 10-minute sermons. Also, sermons are going to be based on the readings for the day, which aren't going to cover all aspects of theology.
And I've been told that the sermon's main role isn't educational anyway. Preachers prefer their sermons to be seen as food that nourishes us without requiring that we remember the ingredients of each meal. That makes sense, because most people forget the content of most sermons soon after hearing them. The best way to be educated certainly isn't to sit still, listen quietly to a monologue and then go away without addressing or voicing any of the issues it raises.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Exactly. Students need seminars as well as lectures.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
|
Posted
I wouldn't mid giving a Renovare Group a shot.
The thing is that stuffing our heads with knowledge isn't necessarily an answer. Besides what do we need? It depends on who we are ministering too. Some need to answer Dawkins, others to feed a tramp in a soup kitchen, others need to relate to pre school children. Discussing the merits of substitution atonement theories or the filioque may not be all that helpful. How many opinions do you get whenever two or three theologians meet?
--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
I have friends in a couple of churches in the Pioneer network. They have run regional theological training courses in times past. I think the topics were more applied theology rather than pure theology but I know they had Elaine Storkey as one of the teachers.
The training was I think offered to church leaders of all different shapes and sizes! I.E.Congregational leaders and others.
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
The EfM course seems to be a great course to me - I've been to an EfM group run by a friend in the US (Memphis, TN) and was interested to see if there were any groups running in the London (UK) area. I was shocked to discover that there were no groups at all operating in Greater London! Admittedly that was a few years back and things may have changed now, but it's sad that there isn't more enthusiasm for this course from the CofE.
The big difficulty, I think, in getting EFM started in the UK is the demands it makes on its participants. It's a 4 year course, in total. It does all the things the OP thinks should be done, and in a good way, but it requires commitment and time from its participants. Most courses run through the parishes ask less, take less time, and can be dropped into and out of. When I teach in my parishes, I specifically design the classes so that each is self-contained, so that if someone can't manage one session they can come to another. EFM isn't like that. It's more like the Bishop's Certificate courses, only, I think, better in design and content--and with less writing.
This thread has made me wonder about the feasibility of starting an EFM in a Deanery.
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
Oops. My reply to iamchristianhearmeroar somehow got left off:
The big difficulty, I think, in getting EFM started in the UK is the demands it makes on its participants. It's a 4 year course, in total. It does all the things the OP thinks should be done, and in a good way, but it requires commitment and time from its participants. Most courses run through the parishes ask less, take less time, and can be dropped into and out of. When I teach in my parishes, I specifically design the classes so that each is self-contained, so that if someone can't manage one session they can come to another. EFM isn't like that. It's more like the Bishop's Certificate courses, only, I think, better in design and content--and with less writing.
This thread has made me wonder about the feasibility of starting an EFM in a Deanery.
--------------------
At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I think there is a gap, not necessarily in "doing theology", but in theological education between clergy and laity. Sunday school doesn't exist as it once did, and there is little other provision for adult theological education in the UK, at least at the local church level.
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
With my "preacher hat" on, and not wishing to de-rail the thread, I'm not sure it is, or should be. I'm not sure the sermon, at least in its traditional form, provides the best means of teaching in this sense.
More fundamentally, to me at least sermons are primarily about proclamation, about telling the gospel (through the lens of the reading) and not about teaching theology (though if that does happen as well, it's a bonus!). Given that sermons are a part of an act of worship, I think their main function is to be part of that worship, for the congregation to hear the Gospel proclaimed through word - any teaching comes secondary to that.
Going back to the OP, Northern Baptist Learning Community (formerly Northern Baptist College) in Manchester provides "TiMM Courses" (Together in Mission and Ministry) which it can run in Baptist churches (dunno about other denominations) for congregations to do together. Looking at the list, they seem to cover at least some of what Gameliel was talking about, though they would come with our own Baptist "slant" on them, of course (and would therefore be 100% theologically and biblically accurate ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ).
A couple of people from my church have done one of them and highly recommended them. Given that they're run by the college I trained at, I couldn't possibly comment on how wonderful and life-changing they can be...
--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
This is different from the OP request, but my Spiritual Care course has a unit called "Spiritual Care as Doing Theology ".
It gave three ways of doing theology :
Theology as statements, or propositions, or doctrines about God,(propositional theology)
Experiential-expressivist theology that moves our hearts - human experience prompts the question that theology seeks to answer,
Cultural -linguistic theology - The Bible is seen as containing the grounding narrative of a religious community that seeks to structure its life according to the sacred truths contained in that narrative.
This is based on George Lindbeck's three old framework in The Nature of Doctrine, 1984.
I don't claim much knowledge on this but offer it as an alternative that may interest you.
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
This is different from the OP request, but my Spiritual Care course has a unit called "Spiritual Care as Doing Theology ".
It gave three ways of doing theology :
Theology as statements, or propositions, or doctrines about God,(propositional theology)
Experiential-expressivist theology that moves our hearts - human experience prompts the question that theology seeks to answer,
Cultural -linguistic theology - The Bible is seen as containing the grounding narrative of a religious community that seeks to structure its life according to the sacred truths contained in that narrative.
This is based on George Lindbeck's three old framework in The Nature of Doctrine, 1984.
I don't claim much knowledge on this but offer it as an alternative that may interest you.
typo : three-fold
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Preachers prefer their sermons to be seen as food that nourishes us without requiring that we remember the ingredients of each meal. That makes sense, because most people forget the content of most sermons soon after hearing them.
I wonder if there's been any research into this point - do sermons actually give the hearers any spiritual nourishment? What's their 'success rate' in bringing about some change in those who hear them? I suppose I mean in contrast to some other gathered activity, not in contrast to non-attendance at church. Hmm, I sense a Masters dissertation topic coming on!
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
The thing is that stuffing our heads with knowledge isn't necessarily an answer.
Oh yes... I'd love to see more opportunities for theological discussion and learning in our churches, but really the need is for greater conformation to the character of Christ, isn't it? ISTM the world will be changed as Christians submit more fully to God's will and become more transformed into his likeness; not as we learn more theology. Not that that renders this discussion irrelevant, of course.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
|
Posted
On vacation once, I came upon a bible study group, older women.... Their course of study, by mutual consent, wasn't "some flimsy study guide" but a subject from the local theol college, taught as distant education. I can still remember their pride in what thy did, and their passion.
It seemed a great process.
--------------------
"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
ISTM the world will be changed as Christians submit more fully to God's will and become more transformed into his likeness; not as we learn more theology. Not that that renders this discussion irrelevant, of course.
If we are to submit to that kind of transformation, which I don't disagree with, it seems to me to be absolutely incumbent upon us to investigate the forces we are inviting to act upon us as closely and rigorously as possible, to be as sure as possible that we are indeed being made into Christ's likeness. Otherwise, we are committing idolatry by transforming God's creation into the shape of an idol of our own making.
[ 17. August 2013, 08:44: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
Yes, good point. I suppose I'm saying that theological education should always be in service to the higher goal of character transformation. Not that we have to ask at every juncture, 'How does this help me in my journey towards a fully Christlike character' but the question is one to keep in mind, IMO.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Gamaliel
Right I think I will start you off with some of the literature.
The Grandfather of taking theology out of the University and into the community is Ian Fraser. The manifesto is "Reinventing Theology as People's Work".
The next book that I came across is Laurie Green's how to manual Let's Do Theology.
Finally and this is on my to read list is Jeff Astley's Exploring Ordinary Theology
There will be others, look but look under "liberation", "contextual" or "practical" theology.
If you are wondering why I know these, the vast amount of my formal theological education has been within this tradition. Yes I mean "formal", my academic theological discourse has been through family and friendship.
The main problem I have as an ethnographer of Congregation is it prioritises the theological discourse of the academy and does not pay attention to the way people already do theology in their own lives.
For instance a huge amount of the "theological" discussion in URC congregations is about how worship is conducted. They do not discuss the sermon or the theology but they signify where they are theologically by how they think worship should be conducted. This can cover everything from who can receive communion, the style of prayers to what instruments should accompany hymns.
If the academy wants to engage with the theology of the congregation it needs to in my opinion learn how to understand the theological signifying system of the people.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I haven't seen this one, Finding out about the Bible, but I have seen both Course in Christian Studies and Lent & Eastertide courses
One of those Eastertide courses was part of the Sundays@6 programme locally. Sundays@6 - on Sunday evenings we offer either:
- a service like the monthly choral evensong, labyrinth prayer, sung Compline, Evening prayer, occasional Taize (I wanted it to run quarterly), stations of the cross, prayers at Easter Garden, crib or other seasonal variation, prayer walk or ...
- a talk with discussion - a whole series on Christian art through the years and what that tells us about beliefs but other things on the art in the church and what that means or ideas running through the Bible
Does that count?
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
More fundamentally, to me at least sermons are primarily about proclamation, about telling the gospel (through the lens of the reading) and not about teaching theology (though if that does happen as well, it's a bonus!). Given that sermons are a part of an act of worship, I think their main function is to be part of that worship, for the congregation to hear the Gospel proclaimed through word - any teaching comes secondary to that.
But what does 'proclaiming the Gospel through word' actually mean in practice?
ISTM that unless a sermon is just a collection of platitudes, it must contain some reflections on the nature of God, and once you start talking about God's nature then you are already doing theology.
More fundamentally, ISTM that if theological education / discussion is something we think would be Good for the laity, then we shouldn't really be putting up barriers to lay participation - and as soon as you start introducing extra courses to be taken by the laity in the evening during the week, you immediately exclude the people who can't attend for whatever reason. Better to incorporate it into the Sunday service that people are already going to - and it so happens that the service already contains a handy appropriate box marked 'sermon'.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
FIEC's Learn2Lead
Is that going to be relevant to laity who want to study theology but not become leaders? Genuine question. Also, depending on the church, would women be excluded from studying a leadership course?
Leadership is influence. In this sense almost everyone exercises leadership in some capacity. With regard the materials, the course is modular so the modules that deal with biblical interpretation would particularly relevant to lay people. However, studying biblical leadership would also help lay people identify godly leadership to which they can and should submit. As for the exclusion of women from theological study, no because any such exclusion would be in direct contradiction of God's word which stipulates that women, like men, should receive the full teaching of God's word.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Thanks Jengie, I'll look those up.
Interesting point about worship. I'm not that familiar with the URC - I've only ever attended one URC service - but I have known about 2 or 3 ministers. One of them used to come and preach regularly at the Baptist church I used to be part of and she was excellent.
I knew a URC 'Free Church Chaplain' at a university and he seemed quite keen on getting worship 'right' - for instance he wouldn't allow charismatic style choruses (despite his wife's liking for them) because he believed them to be unsound and felt that they encouraged a skewed view of the Trinity ie. he felt they were generally overly Christocentric as well as being 'Jesus-is-my-boyfriend-ish'.
He was quite 'high' in his eucharistic theology too - in a Calvinistic sense.
Whatever the case and whatever the tradition, I think the link with worship is crucial - lex orandi, lex credendi and all that.
I'll certainly look up the links you've provided.
It's something that's been at the back of my mind for some time. It seems eminently desirable to me to have some kind of systematic - and yes, Kevin, small-groupy - type of theological training etc going alongside the standard worship menu of whatever church it is we're talking about ... but I'm not sure how it would work out in practice given the varied 'needs' of any congregation and the different levels of understanding that there'd be and the various things that they've involved in outside of church - which to me is equally, if not more important.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
Ricardus: quote:
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
But the sermon allows for NO input from the hearers (hearing, but not necessarily listening!) and thus has no great significance from a learning POV.
On the more general point: The majority of church-goers aren't particularly interested in "doing" theology. "Let's just do church, have coffee and go home" If the church could get people to be a bit more interested, the theology discussions would follow more-or-less automatically.
But then you have the problem if keeping it going, as people grow, age and/or become jaded.
Reading here on the Ship has kept me going for ten years now. How do you keep the average punter alert for that long?
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
@CK - I think what you've described would definitely count and would have the added benefit of combining pedagogy with the times and seasons of the church calendar and so on ... as well as spiritual practices such as labyrinth prayer, Compline and so on that people might not otherwise have the opportunity to experience.
I think the FIEC model has much to recommend it in terms of systematic Bible study and so on, but the older I get the more such churches and traditions seem like some kind of glorified Bible-study club.
I'd submit that you could only really thrive in an FIEC-esque setting if you were the sort of person who enjoyed Bible study almost to the exclusion of anything else.
I know that's a bit of a caricature, but the reason I've enjoyed the Lenten lectio-divina sessions I've twice attended at our local RC parish is that they seem more holistic somehow ... it's not simply a case of 'Let's study the Book of Obadiah because people don't often do that ...'
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Bible study but what I have in mind is something broader than that - more holistic and integrated, if you like. Which is why the kind of thing CK has described would be more likely to appeal to me these days.
I like the Northern Baptist College model too - despite its adoption of the politically-correct 'Learning Community' tag ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Mind you, in certain Baptist circles Northern is seen as dangerously liberal and unitarian ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I wonder if there's been any research into this point - do sermons actually give the hearers any spiritual nourishment? What's their 'success rate' in bringing about some change in those who hear them? I suppose I mean in contrast to some other gathered activity, not in contrast to non-attendance at church. Hmm, I sense a Masters dissertation topic coming on!
It would make a very good Masters dissertation, I think. There are lots of written accounts and assessments of the effectiveness or otherwise of preaching. IMO it would be necessary to establish what kind of listeners you have, not simply what kind of sermons. Fieldwork in different environments would be very interesting, but that might take you into PhD territory.
Re doing theology in church, I don't think many churchgoers would want to spend time on this unless it was made very clear to them what the practical and spiritual benefits would be. Theology simply as intellectual stimulation wouldn't attract many takers. But it depends on what kind of churchgoer we're talking about, of course.
[ 17. August 2013, 11:23: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Sure, I'm not thinking of it as a purely academic or theoretical exercise, hence my interest in the model that CK outlined where the pedagogy was associated or aligned with the worship practices in some way.
And also why I like your idea of applied theology in terms of where the church might find itself in terms of socio-demographic setting and so on.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Ricardus: quote:
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
But the sermon allows for NO input from the hearers (hearing, but not necessarily listening!) and thus has no great significance from a learning POV.
Actually, I have attended services where the sermon starts with a talk by the preacher and then becomes general discussion. It would be nice if this were more widespread.
I agree that the non-participatory nature of sermons is a handicap, but I don't think it means the sermon is of no significance from a learning POV - watching documentaries, reading books or going to lectures also involve zero input from the learner, but they're all bona fide forms of learning, aren't they?
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Ricardus: quote:
Shouldn't that be one of the functions of the sermon?
But the sermon allows for NO input from the hearers (hearing, but not necessarily listening!) and thus has no great significance from a learning POV.
Actually, I have attended services where the sermon starts with a talk by the preacher and then becomes general discussion. It would be nice if this were more widespread.
Or have a good old fashioned Non-conformist go at prophecy 17th Century style. You get several people to give a short address on the passage and then the congregation votes for the one they think best.
No game shows are not a 20th Century invention, the Church got there three hundred years earlier.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I have attended services where the sermon starts with a talk by the preacher and then becomes general discussion. It would be nice if this were more widespread.
I agree that the non-participatory nature of sermons is a handicap, but I don't think it means the sermon is of no significance from a learning POV - watching documentaries, reading books or going to lectures also involve zero input from the learner, but they're all bona fide forms of learning, aren't they?
Reading definitely involves input from the learner!!! You can stop, re-read, make notes, highlight sections, read parts out loud and verbalise your response to the text (if you're not in a library), etc. And documentaries usually work very hard to hold the viewers' attention. What they lack in interaction they try to make up by having detailed visuals of the topic under discussion, and sometimes by bringing in different specialists, so we don't hear only one voice from beginning to end.
The lecture has come under criticism, yet it's more interactive than the sermon. Listeners can take notes, and can usually ask questions at the end. There may be visuals available, and printed notes to take away. The lecture, but not the sermon, is generally designed to be rich in information. Moreover, students in universities know they're going to be tested on the content. This isn't true for the layperson in the pew.
Some traditions have more interaction during sermons. Black-led churches use the call and response method. Some of them also encourage the taking of notes during the sermon. I tried this in mainstream churches for a while, and I don't know why it's not encouraged more widely. But the process does show that many sermons are heavily padded out.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Svitlana
If you have never come across note taking during sermons, cross checking Bible passages and so on then you have missed out a sizable proportion of conservative Evangelical churches.
One Charismatic researcher makes his ethnographic notes under this cover during the sermon. It is so wide spread that when I get my pad and coloured pencils out people assume I am making notes.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Jengie Jon
True. I've been to a few local charismatic churches where there may be some note taking by a few people, but most of the churches I attend are MOTR mainstream churches where noone takes notes.
Yes, I've heard about church researchers who pretend to be taking notes of the sermon while in reality taking 'ethnographic notes'!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It would make a very good Masters dissertation, I think. There are lots of written accounts and assessments of the effectiveness or otherwise of preaching. IMO it would be necessary to establish what kind of listeners you have, not simply what kind of sermons. Fieldwork in different environments would be very interesting, but that might take you into PhD territory.
Thanks a lot. Certainly there are plenty of factors to consider and avenues to pursue. I'll be chatting with my course tutors in just over a week's time so I'll see what they think of my fledgeling ideas.
And I agree with your comments about books, documentaries and lectures. They're so much more interactive than a typical sermon, at least in my experience. But what's the solution? I can only think that it's up to leaders and seasoned Christians in each church to set a good example, unashamedly engaging with God and the Bible on an ongoing basis.
With modern technology as it is, why do we spend so much of our time gathered together in our congregations on sermons which could be delivered online, on CD, or in printed form? We could then use the time in our gathered community actually taking advantage of the fact that we're gathered together; i.e. discussing, praying, encouraging, challenging one another. Maybe that would help more people see theology as something relevant to their lives and thus worth spending time on...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
My theory is that most people who take notes during sermons don't actually refer to them afterwards.
They just do it to show off.
It's a form of parading one's personal piety in public.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My theory is that most people who take notes during sermons don't actually refer to them afterwards.
They just do it to show off.
It's a form of parading one's personal piety in public.
Really? Genuinely unsure if this is serious - but if so, it's a rather sadly negative view of your brethren in Christ, no?
EDIT - And, even if you're right, for some people the very act of taking notes helps them to absorb and process what they're hearing. So, for some people, there's plenty of benefit even if they don't refer back to their notes at any later point.
[ 18. August 2013, 08:34: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My theory is that most people who take notes during sermons don't actually refer to them afterwards.
They just do it to show off.
It's a form of parading one's personal piety in public.
Note taking means that you have to listen to the sermon carefully, whether or not you refer back to them! So it is like kneeling during prayers, an action that can be done for the look of piety but in doing so actually helps you in that.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
No, Kevin, I'm teasing of course ... even I aren't that cynical!
That said, there are Pharisaical tendencies all ways round - Lord have mercy ...
I have known churches where it was de-rigeur to carry a whopping big Bible as a sign of spirituality or to say loud 'Amens' in the sermon in order to toady to the leaders and so on.
These things can happen in each and any setting.
On a more serious note, yes, it does aid concentration and I used to take sermon notes when I was a young Good Little Evangelical and it did help.
I stopped doing it after a while, not because I disapprove of the practice but because I no longer felt the need once I became more familiar with the scriptures and had probably heard anything and everything that these preachers were going to say ...
These days, my tolerance of lengthy sermons has diminished. They blart on and on and on at our local parish for anything from 25 minutes to 35 or even 40 at times and say nothing of any consequence at all.
That said, I'd equally feel short-charged, I think, if I went to a way-up the candle place where the homily lasted between 3 and 10 minutes. Mind you, I've heard some people say a heck of a lot more in that time-frame than some preachers can in 3 or 4 times the length.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, Kevin, I'm teasing of course ... even I aren't that cynical!
That said, there are Pharisaical tendencies all ways round - Lord have mercy ...
I have known churches where it was de-rigeur to carry a whopping big Bible as a sign of spirituality or to say loud 'Amens' in the sermon in order to toady to the leaders and so on.
These things can happen in each and any setting.
On a more serious note, yes, it does aid concentration and I used to take sermon notes when I was a young Good Little Evangelical and it did help.
I stopped doing it after a while, not because I disapprove of the practice but because I no longer felt the need once I became more familiar with the scriptures and had probably heard anything and everything that these preachers were going to say ...
These days, my tolerance of lengthy sermons has diminished. They blart on and on and on at our local parish for anything from 25 minutes to 35 or even 40 at times and say nothing of any consequence at all.
That said, I'd equally feel short-charged, I think, if I went to a way-up the candle place where the homily lasted between 3 and 10 minutes. Mind you, I've heard some people say a heck of a lot more in that time-frame than some preachers can in 3 or 4 times the length.
My goodness! I hope you never attend my meetings. Do you really know that much!?
--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Fair point - I am teasing of course. I'm sure I'd learn a lot from your sermons, Mudfrog.
As ever, I tend to be fairly hyperbolic aboard Ship - I over-exaggerate (to coin a tautological and hyperbolical phrase) in order to make a point and then pull back from it to a more balanced position.
It's how I post. I thought most people would have picked up on that by now. That is, unless their eyes have glazed over before they've reached the end of my rambling posts.
I know plenty of people here who can say a lot more in short, pithy posts than I can in posts that are 3 or 4 times the length ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
What's the solution? I can only think that it's up to leaders and seasoned Christians in each church to set a good example, unashamedly engaging with God and the Bible on an ongoing basis.
With modern technology as it is, why do we spend so much of our time gathered together in our congregations on sermons which could be delivered online, on CD, or in printed form? We could then use the time in our gathered community actually taking advantage of the fact that we're gathered together; i.e. discussing, praying, encouraging, challenging one another. Maybe that would help more people see theology as something relevant to their lives and thus worth spending time on...
Churches are conservative places, and traditional churches with ageing congregations are especially so when it comes to church practice. People attend these churches partly because they value these traditions, not because they long to deconstruct them. IMO focusing on traditional mainstream church settings for the innovations you've mentioned here is unlikely to be fruitful.
In terms of 'online church', that's already been tried, hasn't it? We don't hear so much about it these days. Maybe it was a bit before it's time; it's today's youth, growing up in front of interactive screens, that might really take to that kind of thing.
I don't know to what extent Fresh Expressions has engaged with social media. I haven't been tracking FE, but I get the feeling that it needs to enter a new phase soon, in order to maintain momentum and to generate real interest. Maybe it could begin to think about Christian education. We've had 'godly play' - how about 'godly learning', or learning as worship?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
