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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Holy Spirit and emotions
Raptor Eye
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A comment on the discernment thread implied that being filled with the Holy Spirit was equivalent to being emotional. It may follow that listening to the Holy Spirit is like allowing our emotions to instruct us.

I see God's presence within us in the form of the Holy Spirit as a deep-seated continuing spiritual experience.

While the Holy Spirit does touch us emotionally at times, in particular when we're filled with the love and joy of God e.g. during worship, when the guidance of Christ is written on our hearts and minds this is surely spiritual rather than emotional, and of God rather than of us.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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Spiritual (from the Holy Spirit) experiences are radically different from emotional experiences, and it is troubling that the word 'experience' is often used as a catch-all for 'emotions'. I have been in meetings where what I would call "a hot flush" has come over the congregation, and this is clearly emotional, and easily mistaken for the work of the Holy Spirit. By the grace of God (and only in His grace) I have also experienced the anointing of the Holy Spirit in meetings. This may, or may not, involve much emotion (usually the latter). There is an intense awareness of the presence of God, and a complete shedding of self-consciousness (but not in the sense of being uninhibited as one would be when drunk). Such an experience is as far removed from being naturally manufactured as it is possible to imagine. There is often the experience of something "bubbling up" from deep within, and other times a weight coming down on you. There is a flow in the worship, prophetic utterances, anointing preaching, prayer (perhaps including tongues) and so on. Nothing is 'put on' or manufactured and those who are used to being manipulative are generally struck dumb in the presence of God. Would that the Church of Jesus Christ would know more of this reality!

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Gamaliel
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We need discernment to handle that reality, EE.

I don't doubt that these occasions occur, as it were. They are not restricted to any particular movement or tradition either. I believe they can occur in charismatic evangelical settings and in more liturgical/sacramental settings.

You may feel this contradicts things I've said elsewhere, but I don't believe it does.

Whatever the case, I think a kind of 'sober joy' should be the default option if you like. Sobriety seems to me to be a pronounced Christian virtue.

Some have taken the verse, 'Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Spirit,' to imply that we should be 'drunk in the Spirit' and demonstrate extreme forms of behaviour.

But that's not what it's saying, it's saying, 'be sober.'

God is not a God of confusion but of peace. Sobriety and peace will be the hallmarks of the Spirit's presence.

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Enoch
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I agree with Gamaliel.

I am profoundly wary of anyone who says that throwing off one's inhibitions and behaving in a way-out fashion is somehow evidence that one is more holy and more open to the Holy Spirit.

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Gamaliel
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I think EE is saying something similar, he certainly believes in the 'divine afflatus' - the 'anointing' as some Pentecostals and charismatics would call it and sees this as something of a different order to whipped-up human emotion.

I'd agree with that and wouldn't deny that this does happen at times.

More generally, though, I'm not sure that we should expect to live at such a pitch or at continually heightened states ... and I don't think EE is suggesting such a thing either.

I think it is possible to discern between the 'hot flush' and the genuine sense of divine presence and empowering/equipping ... but it can be a very fine line.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
We need discernment to handle that reality, EE.

I couldn't agree more.

Please define what you mean by 'discernment' and how does it work? What are the tools that you think we need to use, in order to distinguish between genuine spiritual experiences and bogus / merely emotional experiences?

You've already mentioned "sobriety and peace", both of which I agree with. Given that the experience I described passes the test of "sobriety and peace", and given that it is possible to have merely emotional "sober and peaceful" experiences (I'm sure many enemies of the gospel are "sober and placid" characters), then what else would you recommend as tools of discernment?

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Gamaliel
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Good question ...

I'm bowing out of Ship for a bit but you deserve a considered answer.

Briefly ... I think context is a key aspect too. I've not got time to explore this one and give examples, but I'm sure that some of these aspects can legitimately be discerned in different ways in different ecclesial contexts ... whether they support or violate the vision and values of the group etc ... not that these things are sacrosanct, of course.

Commonsense comes into it too.

Bluntly, I'd be more inclined to accept a claimed spiritual gift as genuine if it occurred without apparent suggestion/manipulation or undue encouragement or pressure.

This isn't a hard and fast rule, but I think it's a sensible approach.

Then there are the scriptures, of course - very importantly - and, the scriptures in the context of reason and tradition too ... none of these things happen in a vacuum.

Open-mindedness and a willingness to change our views in the light of further evidence is another key, I think. A balance between the extreme of overt scepticism and cynicism on the one hand and over credulity and naivety on the other.

A difficult balance to strike.

Allied to that, openness to discuss and debate with others and to learn from them. We don't always have the answers ourselves, we need one another.

A sense of humour also helps as well as not taking ourselves or anyone else too seriously. 'I am Mr Discernment, I don't need anyone to tell me,' on the one hand nor, 'Father/Pastor/Authority Figure knows best and I won't question what they say,' on the other.

There will be other aspects I've not thought of and no doubt you will have other aspects you may wish to add or ones from my list that you may not agree with or emphasise as strongly.

Does that answer your question?

[Biased]

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Robert Armin

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Hope you're not gone too long Gamaliel!

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Polly

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I agree with much of the above but would like to add that we are called to Love God with all that we have and this includes our emotions.

The Psalms demonstrate this very well and of course we have the narrative of David dancing wearing next to nothing before the Ark of the Lord!

For me there are x2 challenges:

1) my Britishness at times gets in the way!
2) I mistake the fact that holiness is not found in my emotions but through the choices I make before God.

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Spiritual (from the Holy Spirit) experiences are radically different from emotional experiences, and it is troubling that the word 'experience' is often used as a catch-all for 'emotions'. I have been in meetings where what I would call "a hot flush" has come over the congregation, and this is clearly emotional, and easily mistaken for the work of the Holy Spirit. By the grace of God (and only in His grace) I have also experienced the anointing of the Holy Spirit in meetings. This may, or may not, involve much emotion (usually the latter). There is an intense awareness of the presence of God, and a complete shedding of self-consciousness (but not in the sense of being uninhibited as one would be when drunk). Such an experience is as far removed from being naturally manufactured as it is possible to imagine. There is often the experience of something "bubbling up" from deep within, and other times a weight coming down on you. There is a flow in the worship, prophetic utterances, anointing preaching, prayer (perhaps including tongues) and so on. Nothing is 'put on' or manufactured and those who are used to being manipulative are generally struck dumb in the presence of God. Would that the Church of Jesus Christ would know more of this reality!

Thank you for this, EE. Much of it corresponds with my past experience of a charismatic church service I regularly attended. The flow in the worship when it came seemed to be on a deep sea of love and joy which connected the people who were there to each other as well as to God, creating spiritual bonds between us. Sometimes it seemed odd that we withdrew to go our own way with great British reserve afterwards. As you said, it could not be generated or manipulated, but we were open to the work of the Holy Spirit.

When we speak about love we automatically think of its connected emotional highs and lows, but surely love itself is spiritual, and essential to our faith. Would that it were more in evidence everywhere!

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
[QB] A comment on the discernment thread implied that being filled with the Holy Spirit was equivalent to being emotional. It may follow that listening to the Holy Spirit is like allowing our emotions to instruct us.

If you don't mind me saying so, you are very proficient at finding implications that are not written, were never intended, and which are believed by nobody.

Once again, therefore, you are tilting at windmills.

Enjoy.

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Gamaliel
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I think that both aspects can be true at one and the same time - that there is a genuine flow of the Spirit and also some degree of conforming to expectations. I saw this most clearly, I think, when attending charismatic services in Spain. Because I didn't know the language well enough to follow all that was said, it was easier in a way to see what the 'cues' and prompts were that evoked particular emotional responses. Because I wasn't understanding what was being said, I was less susceptible to the cues.

I think the British thing is a bit of a red-herring. I'm not going to start beating myself up for being British any more than I think these Spaniards should have beaten themselves up for being Spanish.

I take what Raptor Eye and EE are saying, although I suspect things are rather more complicated than might be implied from their posts. But I think the general point is fine as far as it goes.

That said, I can't think of any form of worship that is completely unemotional ... as soon as we introduce music - whether instrumental or unaccompanied - or art or colour or anything that is likely to stimulate a response from our senses then we are introducing an emotional element.

There's nothing wrong with that, unless it is all hyped up and manipulated.

The alternative, I suppose, would be all sit in whitewashed rooms with no decoration and contemplating our navels.

I don't think any of us want to do that.

Bye for now. See you again and bon voyage.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

When we speak about love we automatically think of its connected emotional highs and lows, but surely love itself is spiritual, and essential to our faith. Would that it were more in evidence everywhere!

I would agree with this. I think you are right that Christian love is primarily spiritual. It exists regardless of our own particular emotional responses, which can often be misleading.

My comment on the other thread was not about emotion itself, which is a normal part of every life, and every spiritual journey. It was about the deliberate manipulation of emotions during worship to provide an emotional high, which would then become addictive. Those who get such highs, week in, week out, would tend to find any church which does not provide them dull and insipid.

More traditional churches are then blamed for being inadequate, rather than any consideration being given to exactly what it is that people are getting from their own church, and where it is coming from. Does the Holy Spirit really work that way?

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
I agree with much of the above but would like to add that we are called to Love God with all that we have and this includes our emotions.

The Psalms demonstrate this very well and of course we have the narrative of David dancing wearing next to nothing before the Ark of the Lord!

For me there are x2 challenges:

1) my Britishness at times gets in the way!
2) I mistake the fact that holiness is not found in my emotions but through the choices I make before God.

Thank you for the image of David dancing [Big Grin]

You've brought holiness into the mixture, which is perhaps spiritual perfection? I agree that our choices before God, our acceptance of God's guidance through the Holy Spirit, lead us toward holiness.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Polly

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quote:
Gamaliel posted:I think the British thing is a bit of a red-herring. I'm not going to start beating myself up for being British any more than I think these Spaniards should have beaten themselves up for being Spanish.
This is not what I said Gamaliel and you know it! To deny that one's nationality and culture does not shape and influence the way we worship is a little naive.

What I stated was that I found my being British at times affects the way I worship in unhelpful ways. To expand on this I have to deal with the aspect of 'being reserved' and I find some elements of worship uncomfortable (don't read unaccepable). Some others may share this sense or they may not.

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Chorister

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Some people say that it's the Holy Spirit which has spurred them on to do some very difficult things eg. forgive someone they don't want to forgive, help someone they don't want to help, complete some task they don't feel able to complete. This, to me, sounds like strong, hard grit, and nothing like being carried away by emotions.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
quote:
Gamaliel posted:I think the British thing is a bit of a red-herring. I'm not going to start beating myself up for being British any more than I think these Spaniards should have beaten themselves up for being Spanish.
This is not what I said Gamaliel and you know it! To deny that one's nationality and culture does not shape and influence the way we worship is a little naive.

What I stated was that I found my being British at times affects the way I worship in unhelpful ways. To expand on this I have to deal with the aspect of 'being reserved' and I find some elements of worship uncomfortable (don't read unaccepable). Some others may share this sense or they may not.

I find this, but I don't think it's anything to do with being British. For me it's just being, well, me. Part of that is my culture, I suppose, but there are plenty of other British people who find little problems with the same things I find uncomfortable. I even find genuflection and so on make me too self-conscious. If I could turn on an invisibility field in church it'd be great.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I'm bowing out of Ship for a bit ....

That's a pity Gamaliel. If you don't mind my saying so, you talk a lot of sense.

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some people say that it's the Holy Spirit which has spurred them on to do some very difficult things eg. forgive someone they don't want to forgive, help someone they don't want to help, complete some task they don't feel able to complete. This, to me, sounds like strong, hard grit, and nothing like being carried away by emotions.

I agree. Sometimes we have to do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I can't think of any form of worship that is completely unemotional ... as soon as we introduce music - whether instrumental or unaccompanied - or art or colour or anything that is likely to stimulate a response from our senses then we are introducing an emotional element.

That's because we are human. We need to express ourselves/learn/interact etc with mind, body and spirit. To deny or supress one aspect makes us less whole imo.

BUT to attribute any of this to the HS is missing the point imo. The only way we can experience God is through our selves.

So the only way (imo) to discern that any of it is from God is to look at the fruits. If it's harmful in any way, it's not from God. If it builds us up/ helps/ gives comfort where needed/ heals/ helps us to forgive/ helps us move forward/ encourages love and charity - then it's from God.

Nothing of the way we behave in worship or life can be said to be of the HS if it's harmful to us individually or as a Church.

I don't bother saying anything is from God any more. It's too hard to know. All is filtered through our selves.

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I don't bother saying anything is from God any more. It's too hard to know. All is filtered through our selves.

Except that if we end up doing what is right (and that may be a variety of things), of our own freewill, then overall what we are doing is of God. And that has got to be good.

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Polly

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@Karl - the whole aspect of our who we are including our nationality and culture affects us to different degrees depending on who we are. Sometimes the individual is very conscious about it others may not immediately recognise it because it is deep within our sub-conscious. Personally I am of mind that these things affect us greater than we are aware of.

quote:
Boogie posted: I don't bother saying anything is from God any more. It's too hard to know. All is filtered through our selves.
Just a question but how do you go about acknowledging and thanking God for various things if you no longer bother saying they are from him?
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I don't bother saying anything is from God any more. It's too hard to know. All is filtered through our selves.

Except that if we end up doing what is right (and that may be a variety of things), of our own freewill, then overall what we are doing is of God. And that has got to be good.
No argument about that [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
Just a question but how do you go about acknowledging and thanking God for various things if you no longer bother saying they are from him?

I thank God for all good things - as Chorister says all good comes from God.

[ 29. August 2013, 12:35: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
@Karl - the whole aspect of our who we are including our nationality and culture affects us to different degrees depending on who we are. Sometimes the individual is very conscious about it others may not immediately recognise it because it is deep within our sub-conscious. Personally I am of mind that these things affect us greater than we are aware of.

My natural introversion is quite explanation enough.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Polly:
@Karl - the whole aspect of our who we are including our nationality and culture affects us to different degrees depending on who we are. Sometimes the individual is very conscious about it others may not immediately recognise it because it is deep within our sub-conscious. Personally I am of mind that these things affect us greater than we are aware of.

quote:
Boogie posted: I don't bother saying anything is from God any more. It's too hard to know. All is filtered through our selves.
Just a question but how do you go about acknowledging and thanking God for various things if you no longer bother saying they are from him?
Are British extroverts not really British? Some people are extroverts, some are introverts, nationality doesn't come into it.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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