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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What's the matter with death?
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... The victory over death shown by the Resurrection made manifest on Easter, and then the reconciling of the creation to the Creator on Ascension are the vital elements of the Incarnation. Or so it seems to us.
(Click for context)
The above pulled quote echoes much of the tenor of the current 'Resurrection' thread, as I see it. I'm curious to know why vanquishing death is so important to Christianity, and its practitioners. As Christians, do you really set much store by your faith offering a 'Get out of Death' card? And what awful experience do you imagine yourselves to be actually avoiding (if so)?
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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would love to belong
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# 16747
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Posted
I suppose the alternative to heaven/help is simply oblivion, or being no more. Like it was for us before our birth. It wasn't unpleasant before our birth and it won't be unpleasant after our death. C'est la vie.
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
It's not unique to Christians. Wm. James suggested that what every worldview, every world religion holds in common the belief that things are really messed up-- the world isn't as it should be. Death, suffering, injustice-- they are all part and parcel of that "not rightness". Every time a loved one dies you have that sense that "this shouldn't be"-- that lurch as you realize this is forever. I don't think Christians are unique in longing for things to be different, to be set right.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
As Woody Allen observed: "I'm not afraid of death -- I just don't want to be there when it happens." I've recently had health problems that reminded me of my mortality, and I don't care either how much confidence you have in an afterlife OR how matter-of-factly one thinks of death as a natural process -- actually getting close to it is scary as hell.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I'm not sure about that. Some Sufis long for death, as they will meet the Beloved. And some Eastern religions don't see things as messed up, but rather, our perspective is, which I suppose is similar. It reminds me of a discussion of 'perfect' I had once with a Zen teacher, from which I came away convinced that this was perfect. Well, yes. What would I compare it with?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
Death is the start of a new adventure in the
hereafter .And that is a comforting thought.
Oh if shipmates hear Gandalf speaking well
Tolkien gave him good lines.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
The death which Christ defeated is the death of eternal absence from God, not the death at the end of this life.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
The death which Christ defeated is the death of eternal absence from God, not the death at the end of this life.
Call me thick, but that doesn't make much sense to me. Are you saying there are two deaths? (Yes, I suspect you are, I remember Revelation)
But if you have never known God, or not the "right" God, then how do you know you are absent from him, and are you conscious of this when you die?
Oblivion seems a much kinder destiny. If there isn't an afterlife, I'd settle quite happily for that.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yeah, but oblivion sounds too good to be true.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
The above pulled quote echoes much of the tenor of the current 'Resurrection' thread, as I see it. I'm curious to know why vanquishing death is so important to Christianity, and its practitioners. As Christians, do you really set much store by your faith offering a 'Get out of Death' card? And what awful experience do you imagine yourselves to be actually avoiding (if so)?
Just to be quite clear ALL people have to be judged - christians and non-christians alike, so Christianity is most definitely NOT a 'get out of Hell free' card. God willing, you may be judged worthy of attaining the promises of Christ - but it will cost you, it isn't free.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
Addendum - to clarify, Jesus said we must "take up our cross" and follow Him - we wouldn't have to bother with any of that if eternal life was free, would we?
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
If life is a good then absence of life is an evil. It could be argued, from say a Buddhist or ancient pagan perspective, that life is not a good. Whatever is good about life is merely an illusion; life is suffering. It is better to die than to live; best of all never to be born at all (Sophocles). That seems to me a mistake: what is bad about most suffering is that it's the loss of what are genuine goods - health, material pleasure, loved ones, company.
As for why future death is worse than past non-existence, our life is lived forward and has meaning forward. Suppose a genie offered you a deal: you'd have the resources - time off work, money, physical health, etc - to achieve whatever you wanted (climb a mountain, travel round the world, write a book) on condition that afterwards neither you nor anyone you know would remember that you'd done it. Would it be worth taking the deal? How is that essentially different from our lives as they are assuming death is the end?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
I'm curious to know why vanquishing death is so important to Christianity, and its practitioners.
You are a Buddhist, are you not? Why is vanquishing death so important to Buddhists? The prince Siddhartha Gautama himself entered the religious life after seeing the Four Sights: old age, illness, death and asceticism (attempt to master suffering). Consider what the Buddha called the "noble search" in Ariyapariyesana Sutta:
quote:
And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
Is that really so different from Christian motivations? I think not, or at least not if one strips it precisely of the particular features of the religious answer given to the question. And that is after all what you do here when querying Christians about their preoccupation with death, because once the full answer of Christianity is given, also the quest to deal with death is transformed. As is, differently, in Buddhism.
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
As Christians, do you really set much store by your faith offering a 'Get out of Death' card? And what awful experience do you imagine yourselves to be actually avoiding (if so)?
My faith suggests that everybody has a 'Get out of Death' card, and it will get played. The question is rather whether one has a 'Get into Heaven' card to play next...
And setting aside issues of a painful or inopportune death, the core problem is not having an "awful experience". The core problem is not having any experiences. Quite frankly, the end of me is the end of all there is, and it is not good that everything goes. Of course, I'm not a solipsist and I realise that in fact the universe and other people will carry on just fine without me. Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned personally, the world simply ends with me. I can of course see myself extended into the future past my death by what I have achieved, or perhaps by the children that I have. That is nice, and perhaps comforting, but not the same. And I think this instinctive feeling can be put on a solid philosophical footing: in fact, the world according to IngoB will cease to be if IngoB dies, and while most people will take that loss in their stride it is no surprise that I find it quite devastating.
So that's the real deal here, as far as I am concerned. The world according to IngoB is not going to die, ultimately. Neither is the world according to kankucho pop out of existence, ultimately. These little world bubbles that are us are not made out of soap, they are building foam. They will coalesce and solidify to make something that will last eternally.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What do death and life have in common? They are states of being. Thus are more the same than different. I've gotten further along with understanding this as I have experienced others' deaths and had some life threatening challenges as I've aged. Thus I think the answer to the quesion is a function of both or either of experience in life and age. Religion is important but not as exclusively so anymore in my view. Rather religion and ----, with it in combo.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Can we say that life and death are states of being? At least without a presupposition that life in some way survives death? It's not really problematic to me, except on a logical level, but if I were an atheist I think I would suggest you had smuggled something in there.
Though I suppose there is a certain paradox in most definitions of life that do not include the concept of their own eventual non-existence.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If Christianity was only about life after death, I don't think I'd bother so much - to me it's all about how we live in this life. The Kingdom of God in the here and now.
Perhaps people bothered about it more in the past because a higher number never made it to old age?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What do death and life have in common? They are states of being.
Presumably you also think that being a stamp collector and not being a stamp collector have in common that both are hobbies.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Right. "X" and "not X" can never be references to the same thing. But they can be references to the same sort of thing. Switching the light on and not switching the light on can be said to be the same sort of decision. You would really have to define further what you mean by life and death. Good luck with that.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
A humanist celebrant at a funeral I attended made the profound point that you can't experience being dead. Life after death seems to be central to most religions. Why? In a pre-scientific world it is easy to see that people assumed that their loved one must have gone somewhere and then imagined what that "somewhere" might be like. But in the light of scientific knowledge, I think it most unlikely that life continues after the death of the physical body.
In any case, Christians who think that, after they have died, their "spirit" will wake up in a different place have not been reading the Bible or paying attention to the Nicene Creed, both of which promise "the resurrection of the body". That is not the same thing as the spirit leaving the body at the moment of death.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
In any case, Christians who think that, after they have died, their "spirit" will wake up in a different place have not been reading the Bible or paying attention to the Nicene Creed, both of which promise "the resurrection of the body". That is not the same thing as the spirit leaving the body at the moment of death.
Hi Gwalchmai - I suspect they also haven't thought through the logic of what they will have to give up to avoid being both bitterly disappointed and eternally bored.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
In any case, Christians who think that, after they have died, their "spirit" will wake up in a different place have not been reading the Bible or paying attention to the Nicene Creed, both of which promise "the resurrection of the body". That is not the same thing as the spirit leaving the body at the moment of death.
Yes. Which speaks to this post:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The death which Christ defeated is the death of eternal absence from God, not the death at the end of this life.
Quite the contrary, I would assert that the hope proclaimed in the NT and in the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds is, in fact, that Christ has defeated the "death at the end of this life". We just have not yet witnessed the complete fulfillment of that hope.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... The victory over death shown by the Resurrection made manifest on Easter, and then the reconciling of the creation to the Creator on Ascension are the vital elements of the Incarnation. Or so it seems to us.
(Click for context)
The above pulled quote echoes much of the tenor of the current 'Resurrection' thread, as I see it. I'm curious to know why vanquishing death is so important to Christianity, and its practitioners. As Christians, do you really set much store by your faith offering a 'Get out of Death' card? And what awful experience do you imagine yourselves to be actually avoiding (if so)?
Mankind was created mortal, like the animals.
What we avoid is death itself. It is not particularly awful, it is just oblivion.
I don't particularly care what happens to me after death. My faith is about making sense of my life, and finding meaning in a very confusing and meaningless world.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
In any case, Christians who think that, after they have died, their "spirit" will wake up in a different place have not been reading the Bible or paying attention to the Nicene Creed, both of which promise "the resurrection of the body". That is not the same thing as the spirit leaving the body at the moment of death.
'This very day you will be beside me in Paradise'.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
A humanist celebrant at a funeral I attended made the profound point that you can't experience being dead.
Clearly someone who has never attended Christmas dinner with my extended family.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Cliffdweller, Yes, my post was badly expressed. In fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days. We proclaim this in the Creeds. He confirmed this by his won physical resurrection, made patent not just by his showing himself to his followers and by eating with them. But His death, resurrection and ascension show his victory enabling reconciliation of the created with the Creator.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Cliffdweller, YIn fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
[b]In fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days.
But nowhere is it suggested that Lazarus remains alive to this day, so one assumes he died a normal death in old age. It is more likley that Lazarus was in a coma - in biblical times that would have seemed like death and it is quite understandable that his family buried him.
Sorry for posting the quote a few minutes ago without a comment - still learning how the mechanics of the boards work.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
[b]In fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days.
But nowhere is it suggested that Lazarus remains alive to this day, so one assumes he died a normal death in old age. It is more likley that Lazarus was in a coma - in biblical times that would have seemed like death and it is quite understandable that his family buried him.
Why would it have seemed like death in Biblical times? Were comas fundamentally different then? Or are you merely assuming that everyone before the enlightenment was an ignorant primitive who couldn't understand the difference between living and dead with the sophistication of us modern westerners.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The death which Christ defeated is the death of eternal absence from God, not the death at the end of this life.
I think both are true. Both parallel and teach us about the other.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
[b]In fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days.
But nowhere is it suggested that Lazarus remains alive to this day, so one assumes he died a normal death in old age. It is more likley that Lazarus was in a coma - in biblical times that would have seemed like death and it is quite understandable that his family buried him.
Why would it have seemed like death in Biblical times? Were comas fundamentally different then? Or are you merely assuming that everyone before the enlightenment was an ignorant primitive who couldn't understand the difference between living and dead with the sophistication of us modern westerners.
No need to be so aggressive. There have been medical advances since 30AD that do make it easier to detect faint signs of life where death may appear to have occurred; people being buried whilst still alive is documented and can still happen today.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
What's the matter with death?
Nothing. It was working fine yesterday.
Personally, I have no problem with the idea of not existing after death. I didn't exist for a long time before my birth, and that didn't bother me. (Except for a niggling disappointment that I missed the first Bayreuth Festival, and can't remember the early episodes of Doctor Who.) Neither the promise of heaven nor the threat of hell is what makes me a Christian. And since I can't imagine an everlasting life that wouldn't soon become unbearably tedious, then any possible heaven must be unimaginable.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by kanchuko:
quote:
And what awful experience do you imagine yourselves to be actually avoiding (if so)?
I reached the stage of going into shock through blood loss once, and if our wonderful NHS hadn't fixed me up, then my last conscious thoughts and feelings before going into shock would have been my last thoughts and feelings ever.
It wasn't unpleasant. My recollection is of everything growing increasingly blurry, unreal and golden. No tunnels of light or anything, but it wasn't at all unpleasant. It didn't hurt. I was lying in a hospital bed feeling increasingly adrift from reality, in a rather lovely way.
I sincerely hope that I don't die any time in the next 40 years, but that when I do, it's like that.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
I'm curious to know why vanquishing death is so important to Christianity, and its practitioners.
You are a Buddhist, are you not? Why is vanquishing death so important to Buddhists?
Yes, I am. And just to be clear: I'm not needling Christians with my topic question, just crowd surfing the house majority - so thanks to all who who've chipped in so far.
As you note, Siddhartha was entirely candid about the mystery of death being central to his meditation and teaching. Buddhist thought has become fractured on the precise answer, some of it (eg, Pure Land) being not dissimilar to Sunday-school Christianity in positing a better world on the 'other side'. But the general view is that the physical and spiritual universe is a closed system in a constant cycle of birth, death and rebirth. So reincarnation, one way or another, is taken as a given: there's nowhere else to go or any other state of being than latency or manifestation. Oblivion isn't an option, as desirable as it may seem to the world-weary as has been mentioned already.
I'm with ACR who states above:
quote:
I don't particularly care what happens to me after death. My faith is about making sense of my life, and finding meaning in a very confusing and meaningless world.
Death comes to us all, and que sera sera. It's the quality of living that counts, and which must be enhanced by faith if faith is to be more than an excuse for having a crap life.
[ 29. August 2013, 13:31: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
[b]In fuller terms, Jesus had already shown his power over physical death, most clearly by his raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been in the grave 4 days.
But nowhere is it suggested that Lazarus remains alive to this day, so one assumes he died a normal death in old age. It is more likley that Lazarus was in a coma - in biblical times that would have seemed like death and it is quite understandable that his family buried him.
Sorry for posting the quote a few minutes ago without a comment - still learning how the mechanics of the boards work.
the question of whether Lazarus was in a coma or "really dead" is a bit of a bunny trail into the larger discussion of hermeneutics and inspiration and naturalism.
But it does point us to something else-- that Lazarus' healing/ restoration over death is not portrayed in the NT the same way as Jesus'. This is the point I was laboring unsuccessfully to make with Gee D. The death that Jesus has won victory over is not some elusive sort of "spiritual death" or "separation from God" or "death of the immortal soul". It is death exactly as we see and experience it-- the physical death of our bodies that every day tears apart our families and our homes, that brings tragedy and heartbreak. We do not yet see the fulfillment of that hope of victory over physical death, but we look forward to the fulfillment of that hope found in the NT & the creeds, for which Jesus' resurrection is the "first fruits".
[ 29. August 2013, 15:33: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I see it as a very important aspect of my faith to be able to hold on to the hope of life with God forever. As others have said, it is more about life in the here and now lived in the service of God: but the thought of knowing God face to face fully in his kingdom, rather than 'through a glass darkly' in the broken world, is the ultimate bliss to look forward to, to keep us going when all might otherwise be seen as doom and gloom ending with our own demise, sooner or later.
I like the idea of everyone passing 'go' at death into the new realm of bliss, but if God has given us the free will to decide for ourselves, and some choose not to stay in the game, I guess it's not for me to insist that they should want what I want.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
What's the matter with death?
Nothing. It was working fine yesterday.
Personally, I have no problem with the idea of not existing after death. I didn't exist for a long time before my birth, and that didn't bother me. (Except for a niggling disappointment that I missed the first Bayreuth Festival, and can't remember the early episodes of Doctor Who.) Neither the promise of heaven nor the threat of hell is what makes me a Christian. And since I can't imagine an everlasting life that wouldn't soon become unbearably tedious, then any possible heaven must be unimaginable.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And since I can't imagine an everlasting life that wouldn't soon become unbearably tedious, then any possible heaven must be unimaginable.
If there is life after death, it may be in a universe which lacks the dimension of time, and without time there can be no tedium. Physicists can conceive of universes with 17 or more dimensions, so I see no problem in principle with a universe that lacks the dimension of time. Isaac Watts had no diffiuclty with the concept in the 18th Century:
A thousand ages in Thy sight
Are like an evening gone;
Short as the watch that ends the night
Before the rising sun.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Addendum - to clarify, Jesus said we must "take up our cross" and follow Him - we wouldn't have to bother with any of that if eternal life was free, would we?
Mark, coming from a different choir to the one you're preaching to there, I have to say 'no, we wouldn't'. Eternal life is not only free, but unavoidable. What costs, perhaps, is the effort of making that life sustainably enjoyable and worthwhile - in which case 'taking up our cross' is less about denial of self than shouldering full responsibility for one's circumstances (karma, if you will) and transforming them into something of value.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And since I can't imagine an everlasting life that wouldn't soon become unbearably tedious, then any possible heaven must be unimaginable.
If there is life after death, it may be in a universe which lacks the dimension of time, and without time there can be no tedium. Physicists can conceive of universes with 17 or more dimensions, so I see no problem in principle with a universe that lacks the dimension of time. Isaac Watts had no diffiuclty with the concept in the 18th Century:
A thousand ages in Thy sight
Are like an evening gone;
Short as the watch that ends the night
Before the rising sun.
Conceivably there could be some sort of suspended existence - but that is that "Life" after death? Heaven as a cryogenic bath is not exactly appealing is it?
Incidentally, Isaac Watts was not a physicist and probably was unaware of string theory (the origin of the idea of many dimensions) which was first studied in the 1960s. I think you will find that the vast majority of theoretical physicists are atheists.
Differing figures abound but
this quotes sources
Only 7 per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God. Whilst only 3.3 per cent believed in God in the UK’s Royal Society.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Plique-à-jour
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# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I think you will find
There we go, the authentic voice of atheism.
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
And since I can't imagine an everlasting life that wouldn't soon become unbearably tedious, then any possible heaven must be unimaginable.
If there is life after death, it may be in a universe which lacks the dimension of time, and without time there can be no tedium. Physicists can conceive of universes with 17 or more dimensions, so I see no problem in principle with a universe that lacks the dimension of time.
Time is an odd dimension, which doesn't behave in the same way as the other three that we non-physicists are usually content to deal in for day-to-day purposes. Only one speck of time really exists at any one... er, time. In that sense, the present moment is an eternal one right here in the universe that we've got. Whether or not it is heavenly is a matter for our perpsective.
I expect this is akin to what quetzalcoatl gleaned from the conversation with the Zen teacher on perfection, related upthread. The prime definition of 'perfect' in most dictionaries is 'complete' - not the superlative of 'lovely'. In that sense, our circumstances, heavenly or otherwise, perfectly accord with the life that experiences them. The two are indivisible and the condition for heaven lies in whether we apply our volition to perpetuating or transforming them.
In Buddhist parlance though, the word that is usually translated as heaven, or rapture, is really only a partial condition of happiness, a reward state when sensory desires are fulfilled. To me, this interpretation accords with the expectations many people have when they imagine a better life in the hereafter. We might then wonder, if all our sensory aches and woes are magically deleted there, to whom is our eternal bliss experience actually happening?
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Only one speck of time really exists at any one... er, time. In that sense, the present moment is an eternal one right here in the universe that we've got.
I have heard the analogy that eternity is a circle and time is a tangent. The point where time touches eternity is the present moment
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Hairy Biker
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# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
God willing, you may be judged worthy of attaining the promises of Christ - but it will cost you, it isn't free.
It's not? That's not what Nicky Gumboil told me!
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
God willing, you may be judged worthy of attaining the promises of Christ - ...
*Me* judged worthy? "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' love and righteousness." His righteousness, not mine, we don't work to deserve a ticket to heaven.
But about death - if love is temporary (romantic love, platonic deep friendships, et al), the nature of reality would teach us to regard all relationships as disposable. But if relationships are merely interrupted - or put it this way, if we all have to get along in a later longer life, we'd better start figuring out how to get along! Very different message about relationships with others.
So while I think Christianity - awareness of God - is primarily about life today, which is why we aren't told much about what's next, awareness there's more affects what we see as being of value or not in this life.
As to eternity being boring, I used to worry about that, but I've been taking free courses from Coursera on all sorts of things - physics, songwriting, archeology, business planning, Calvin, Internet history, astrobiology, English composition, social psychology, rise and fall of Jerusalem (6th century B.C.E.), programing in Pylon, Greek mythology, American modern poetry, gastronomy, organizational theory, Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas, etc - they are offering 400+ courses (up from 300 a couple months ago), all free, I sign up for things I know nothing about and discover new to me topics people can spend their life pursuing!
There is so much about this planet and it's life forms to be amazed at, and who knows what else there is in the rest of physical and non-physical reality?
Yup, gonna take an eternity to enjoy exploring it all.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
God willing, you may be judged worthy of attaining the promises of Christ - but it will cost you, it isn't free.
It's not? That's not what Nicky Gumboil told me!
Well it is and it isn't. You can't earn your way into heaven by your own merits - only Christ can merit us that (so in that sense it is free) - yet we are still judged according to our works (the Bible says so), our works in Christ where we have to take up our cross and deny ourselves (so in that sense it isn't free.)
There are many other far more prominent Evangelicals, living and dead, who would agree with me. Nicky Gumbel doesn't have a monopoly on Evangelicalism.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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HughWillRidmee
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# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I think you will find
There we go, the authentic voice of atheism.
1 - Did you read the lines below "I think you will find" and click through to the source material?
2 - Atheism doesn't have a voice - authentic or otherwise. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. For me that continues into an absence of certainty in other areas which I can't personally verify. Since I can't prove that physicists are included in the quoted statements I refuse to claim certainty, but it seems very, very likely doesn't it?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Since I can't prove that physicists are included in the quoted statements I refuse to claim certainty, but it seems very, very likely doesn't it?
Ecklund & Scheitle find among physicists at US elite universities about 20% belief in God, 30% if one includes "something higher", about 30% agnosticism and about 40% atheism. There are no clear patterns across various fields, though the corresponding average is about 30/40% God/higher, 30% agnostic, 30% atheist, making physicists somewhat less believing than average. However, there could be selection biases there, e.g., there was a smaller sample of physicists.
From my personal experience as a theoretical physicists at German / Australian universities, I would have guessed around 30% "religious" physicists as well. Thus I expect these numbers to be roughly right also outside the USA.
Mind you, overt religiosity is really rare in my experience. And there's a consistent discouragement of religion along the Laplacian "I don't need that hypothesis" lines in the academe. Religion is very much not order of business. So I'm not particularly surprised if the more "elite" - and hence the longer in the academe and the more engaged with it - the less religious. That may tell us something about correlations between scientific "performance" and religiosity, but it may also tell us something about the influence of decades of socialisation in a particular setting.
I furthermore note that in my personal experience excellence at theoretical physics does not correlate terribly well with superior social skills or emotional stability. (The comedy series "Big Bang Theory" is a caricature, but not a lie...) There may be considerable "psychological" selection effects there against religions, in particular contemporary Christian religion, that emphasise social gatherings and emotional display. One could even wonder if religion does not require its own set of talents more in general, and whether the lack of religious people in the academe is simply a game of chance, with bad odds against multiple talents. That few elite physicists are great painters does not mean that art is an invalid field of human excellence.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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