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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Here ExclamationMark - http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000516;p=2#000054 and here EtymologicalEvangelical http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=018317;p=2#000074 blame liberal theology for killing the church.

Fine.

But what do you expect and want us liberals to do? What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.? It's not that I believe that the above examples are false, it's just that I don't believe with any confidence that they are true, and therefore I need to work out my faith in a way that it is not destroyed if these things do indeed turn out to be untrue - to put it another way, if my faith is only as sure as my confidence in the Virgin Birth, then it's pretty weak.

So, what do you want us to do? Pretend we really believe things we don't? Stop coming to church? Just shut up? Stop calling ourselves Christian? Fuck off and die?

I really want to know.

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Imho, the onus is not on you to do anything, Karl.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.? It's not that I believe that the above examples are false, it's just that I don't believe with any confidence that they are true, and therefore I need to work out my faith in a way that it is not destroyed if these things do indeed turn out to be untrue - to put it another way, if my faith is only as sure as my confidence in the Virgin Birth, then it's pretty weak.

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Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.? It's not that I believe that the above examples are false, it's just that I don't believe with any confidence that they are true, and therefore I need to work out my faith in a way that it is not destroyed if these things do indeed turn out to be untrue - to put it another way, if my faith is only as sure as my confidence in the Virgin Birth, then it's pretty weak.

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What do you think it means to be a follower of Jesus without believing in his Virgin Birth or Resurrection? Also, how will these things turn out to be untrue? I mean, at what point will you consider it proven that they are untrue?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.? It's not that I believe that the above examples are false, it's just that I don't believe with any confidence that they are true, and therefore I need to work out my faith in a way that it is not destroyed if these things do indeed turn out to be untrue - to put it another way, if my faith is only as sure as my confidence in the Virgin Birth, then it's pretty weak.

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What do you think it means to be a follower of Jesus without believing in his Virgin Birth or Resurrection? Also, how will these things turn out to be untrue? I mean, at what point will you consider it proven that they are untrue?

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I do not think being a follower of Jesus is about signing up to a series of propositions about him. I do not expect any of these propositions to be proven or unproven at any point; my point is that I do not know whether they are true or not but do not want my discipleship (such as it is) to be only as strong as my confidence that they are, which is very weak.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
The conversions described in Acts (Pentecost, Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius) all show people understanding the story of Christ's death and resurrection. Maybe go through those verses and try to understand what the basics of Christian belief were for the early believers.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
qb]

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I do not think being a follower of Jesus is about signing up to a series of propositions about him.

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Well, I dunno ... "My Lord and my God!"? (Thomas). And "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ...no-one comes to the Father except through me." Don't blame me, I didn't say it. It's Jesus who is being all spiky and uncompromising-like here ... Although I certainly don't think this means He requires everybody to tick every single doctrinal thing on the box. Christ is far more generous and understanding than many who claim to follow Him. But if He isn't the one who changes everything - including death itself - then I see no point to Christianity at all. Take away Christ's most startling, difficult, downright weird claims about Himself and you're left with ... well, what, just another nice guy?

FWIW, I certainly wouldn't want liberals 'driven out' of the church. I'm no fan of rigid fundamentalism, which crushes people spiritually, emotionally and intellectually, and there are strands of liberalism which perhaps evangelicals (for example) can and should fruitfully dialogue with.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I do not expect any of these propositions to be proven or unproven at any point; my point is that I do not know whether they are true or not but do not want my discipleship (such as it is) to be only as strong as my confidence that they are, which is very weak.

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I sometimes wonder, "is all this just a beautiful fairytale I tell myself to ward off the bleakness of an indifferent universe, a lie I tell myself in the face of my own mortality?" I can hardly be the only Christian, evangelical or any other flavour, who wonders that.

I also think those kinds of hard questions can strengthen faith, rather than weaken it. One of my favourite sayings in the Gospels is the father who said to Jesus, "Lord, I do believe ... help Thou my unbelief." I relate.

And to this: "I believe in Christ and confess him not like some child; my hosanna has passed through an enormous furnace of doubt." (Dostoevsky).

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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I sometimes wonder, "is all this just a beautiful fairytale I tell myself to ward off the bleakness of an indifferent universe, a lie I tell myself in the face of my own mortality?" I can hardly be the only Christian, evangelical or any other flavour, who wonders that. [Cool]

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm saying that those stories don't include anything about the virgin birth, Moses, etc. so maybe the basics might be more acceptable to him.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


But what do you expect and want us liberals to do? What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.?

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
The conversions described in Acts (Pentecost, Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius) all show people understanding the story of Christ's death and resurrection. Maybe go through those verses and try to understand what the basics of Christian belief were for the early believers.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm saying that those stories don't include anything about the virgin birth, Moses, etc. so maybe the basics might be more acceptable to him.

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But Karl also said he can't give strong assent to Jesus' physical resurrection, which (as you said) is a key part of those conversion accounts in Acts. So I don't see how reading those accounts will help Karl at this time with this issue.

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Originally posted by hatless:
And is that enough? Is the beauty of your fairytale, like the beauty a physicist might see in a set of equations (each to their own), a suggestion that the fairytale is true?

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I like your equation with physics. A lot.

You're right: a fairytale wouldn't be enough. Not nearly enough. An imaginative work of fiction like 'The Lord of the Rings' inspires my imagination and moves me on a deep level, but it wasn't LotR I was thinking of when I sat by my dying friend's bedside last year. I needed a hell of a lot more than a fictional world to get me through my friend's death.

Books, poems and music do help a lot, actually, they're soul-food, but faith - in the face of the impossible - offers a deeper foundation, I humbly submit. One must also face objective reality. Once someone's dead, they're dead. Which is why I also believe in the miracle of resurrection.

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
For me it's not important what you "believe", but what you do. Does a liberal approach to Christianity allow you to be a Christian, when a conservative approach would make you walk away? If that's the case, then stay where you are (or rather, don't - go and follow Him).

For me it comes down to two questions - do my beliefs help me to do what Jesus wanted from me? and do they help me to recommend Jesus to the rest of the world?

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I like this too.

Scolding people for having doubts hardly seems productive, at any rate.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
For me it's not important what you "believe", but what you do.

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Originally posted by hatless:
But believe doesn't mean assent to propositions (as if that were under voluntary control). It means give your allegiance to. We join up with Jesus, we enlist, we subscribe, we pledge allegiance to, we self-identify with, we idolise him, make him our hero, and worship him. That's belief, not holding some opinion about post-burial shenanigans.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean like treating the elements of the Eucharist as if it really were the body and blood of Christ whilst one actually holds that that is a pious fiction which is helpful for maintaining due reverence but isn't actually literally true?

[I know I'm going to get flak for that one...]

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by hatless:
But believe doesn't mean assent to propositions (as if that were under voluntary control). It means give your allegiance to. We join up with Jesus, we enlist, we subscribe, we pledge allegiance to, we self-identify with, we idolise him, make him our hero, and worship him. That's belief, not holding some opinion about post-burial shenanigans.

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This.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So, what do you want us to do? Pretend we really believe things we don't? Stop coming to church? Just shut up? Stop calling ourselves Christian? Fuck off and die? I really want to know.

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Blaise Pascal "Pensées" (public domain)
252. For we must not misunderstand ourselves; we are as much automatic as intellectual; and hence it comes that the instrument by which conviction is attained is not demonstrated alone. How few things are demonstrated! Proofs only convince the mind. Custom is the source of our strongest and most believed proofs. It bends the automaton, which persuades the mind without its thinking about the matter. Who has demonstrated that there will be a tomorrow and that we shall die? And what is more believed? It is, then, custom which persuades us of it; it is custom that makes so many men Christians; custom that makes them Turks, heathens, artisans, soldiers, etc. (Faith in baptism is more received among Christians than among Turks.) Finally, we must have recourse to it when once the mind has seen where the truth is, in order to quench our thirst, and steep ourselves in that belief, which escapes us at every hour; for always to have proofs ready is too much trouble. We must get an easier belief, which is that of custom, which, without violence, without art, without argument, makes us believe things and inclines all our powers to this belief, so that our soul falls naturally into it. It is not enough to believe only by force of conviction, when the automaton is inclined to believe the contrary. Both our parts must be made to believe, the mind by reasons which it is sufficient to have seen once in a lifetime, and the automaton by custom, and by not allowing it to incline to the contrary. Inclina cor meum, Deus. [Ps. 119. 36. "Incline my heart, O Lord."]

The reason acts slowly, with so many examinations and on so many principles, which must be always present, that at every hour it falls asleep, or wanders, through want of having all its principles present. Feeling does not act thus; it acts in a moment, and is always ready to act. We must then put our faith in feeling; otherwise it will be always vacillating.

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Originally posted by hatless:
But believe doesn't mean assent to propositions (as if that were under voluntary control). It means give your allegiance to. We join up with Jesus, we enlist, we subscribe, we pledge allegiance to, we self-identify with, we idolise him, make him our hero, and worship him. That's belief, not holding some opinion about post-burial shenanigans.

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Originally posted by moron:
What a great thread - well done.

My suggestion would be to acknowledge that 'liberals' really aren't all that liberal; that their universe view is hardly demonstrably larger than the 'conservatives' they routinely disdain.

It would be a start.


Alternatively, FOAD.

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Originally posted by Hawk:

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Originally posted by hatless:
But believe doesn't mean assent to propositions (as if that were under voluntary control). It means give your allegiance to. We join up with Jesus, we enlist, we subscribe, we pledge allegiance to, we self-identify with, we idolise him, make him our hero, and worship him. That's belief, not holding some opinion about post-burial shenanigans.

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While that is true in part, I think its more helpful to realise that belief includes both allegience to, and knowledge of. Without assenting to the propositions of Christianity about Jesus then who are we putting our faith in?.

Our belief in Jesus needs to be firmly rooted in the reality of the actual historical man who lived, died and rose again. Belief in Jesus has to mean not only belief in the ideas that Jesus represents, but also belief in certain facts about Jesus. That He was God, that He was sinless, that he was born as a man among His people as one of us, that He died for the World, and that He defeated death and sin in order to bring us back to a right relationship with God. That He rose back to life as a signifier and guarantee of that.

There are some propositions about Jesus that are of secondary importance of course. But I think belief in certain essential facts about Him is necessary for our belief in Him to have any meaning outside ourselves. And thus necessary for our Salvation.

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[qb] I do not think being a follower of Jesus is about signing up to a series of propositions about him.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Hawk:
...I think its more helpful to realise that belief includes both allegience to, and knowledge of. Without assenting to the propositions of Christianity about Jesus then who are we putting our faith in?

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Really? Then that's salvation for the severely learning-disabled off of the table then, isn't it?

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
For me it's not important what you "believe", but what you do.

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Originally posted by Dal Segno:

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Originally posted by Laurelin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[qb] I do not think being a follower of Jesus is about signing up to a series of propositions about him.

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I agree. It is about Christ living in you. It is about God's spirit joining with your human spirit to make a new creation, a new life.

If you take that as a statement of reality, rather than as a clever metaphor, it puts a different complexion on Christianity.

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Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by hatless:
But believe doesn't mean assent to propositions (as if that were under voluntary control). It means give your allegiance to. We join up with Jesus, we enlist, we subscribe, we pledge allegiance to, we self-identify with, we idolise him, make him our hero, and worship him. That's belief, not holding some opinion about post-burial shenanigans.

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This.

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But how do you know who or what you're giving allegiance to?

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't know, I think seeing Jesus merely as the greatest human ever doesn't put enough distance between how I feel about him and how I feel about Gandhi.

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I think that would make you a Unitarian (and they're fairly fond of Gandhi as well)

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
But that was for the early believers. 2000 years ago. 100 generations of Christian ago. Haven't we had more time to reflect on these events since then and develop our understanding of what happened and what it meant?

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Originally posted by IngoB:

Third, I would ask you to consider importance first, then truth, and where you see little importance to be generous about demanding the truth.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...
So, what do you want us to do? Pretend we really believe things we don't? Stop coming to church? Just shut up? Stop calling ourselves Christian? Fuck off and die?

I really want to know.

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I don't think you're ever going to get validation for your liberal beliefs from those who are staunchly conservative - they're never going to say, "yes, it's perfectly OK to be a Christian even though you don't believe in the Resurrection", are they? The most you can expect is that your beliefs are accepted (or at least tolerated) at the church which you attend yourself. In your average, mainstream church, people don't go around asking nosey and impertinent questions about other peoples' faith, and vicars are perfectly used to people having 'doubts' about some or all of the main tenets of Christianity. Perhaps you just have to get used to the fact that they're people who disagree with you.

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Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...
So, what do you want us to do? Pretend we really believe things we don't? Stop coming to church? Just shut up? Stop calling ourselves Christian? Fuck off and die?

I really want to know.

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I don't think you're ever going to get validation for your liberal beliefs from those who are staunchly conservative - they're never going to say, "yes, it's perfectly OK to be a Christian even though you don't believe in the Resurrection", are they? The most you can expect is that your beliefs are accepted (or at least tolerated) at the church which you attend yourself. In your average, mainstream church, people don't go around asking nosey and impertinent questions about other peoples' faith, and vicars are perfectly used to people having 'doubts' about some or all of the main tenets of Christianity. Perhaps you just have to get used to the fact that they're people who disagree with you.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Missing the point. I know that they don't agree with me, by definition. I'm just curious as to what they want us to actually do, given that we can't make ourselves believe things.

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Originally posted by Gwai:
What do people mean by taking things on trust? I once said to someone that I could now say all of the Apostles Creed and mean it as Truth. I just didn't take two lines completely literally. He said he had been the same way for years until he decided to take it on trust and decide to believe it. It was only a while later that I realized I had no idea what he really meant.

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But what do you expect and want us liberals to do? What exactly should I do, given that I want to be a follower of Jesus but do not, in my heart of hearts, really believe in things like the Virgin Birth, the divine authorship of Scripture, the physical Resurrection, the historicity of Moses etc. etc.? It's not that I believe that the above examples are false, it's just that I don't believe with any confidence that they are true, and therefore I need to work out my faith in a way that it is not destroyed if these things do indeed turn out to be untrue - to put it another way, if my faith is only as sure as my confidence in the Virgin Birth, then it's pretty weak.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Missing the point. I know that they don't agree with me, by definition. I'm just curious as to what they want us to actually do, given that we can't make ourselves believe things.

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Pray! Pray for the gift of faith, for wisdom and guidance in understanding why the Bible is communicating in a way you find hard to take seriously.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And when that doesn't work, SS? What do you want us to do then? And what do you expect us to do in the meantime?

The point of my question is not "how can we become sure of all these truths like you?", it's "given that we're not, what do you expect us to do in the church?" When we're told we're destroying the church, as in the posts in the OP on this thread, my reaction is "Ah. So you are trying to blackmail us into one of pretending we believe what you do, shutting up, or disappearing altogether. So which is it?"

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
What do people mean by taking things on trust? I once said to someone that I could now say all of the Apostles Creed and mean it as Truth. I just didn't take two lines completely literally. He said he had been the same way for years until he decided to take it on trust and decide to believe it. It was only a while later that I realized I had no idea what he really meant.

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Nor me.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The point of my question is not "how can we become sure of all these truths like you?", it's "given that we're not, what do you expect us to do in the church?" When we're told we're destroying the church, as in the posts in the OP on this thread, my reaction is "Ah. So you are trying to blackmail us into one of pretending we believe what you do, shutting up, or disappearing altogether. So which is it?"

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