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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is there life from other planets?
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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Sheffield University think so, having sent a probe 16 miles up into the stratosphere they have detected small organisms which are too large to have risen from the ground. "We can only assume that they originated from space," says Professor Milton Wainwright. "life almost certainly did not originate here," he added.

It looks like alien invaders are not little green men from Mars, big eyes beans from Venus or grays from Alpha Centauri, but something much smaller, if less photogenic than ET.

Story here.

Are the Yorkshire boffins right? and if so how does that impact on the belief that God created the Earth?

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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Why would it change anything at all in that regard?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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So let's review the evidence. Part of a known, identifiable terrestrial lifeform is discovered 27km up in the atmosphere. A mechanism to get the fragment (some 10 microns long) up to that altitude is known and provable.

Therefore, aliens!

[Roll Eyes] I despair of my alma mater.

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Forward the New Republic

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Not being a molecular biologist, I'm in no position to judge the claims made by Dr. Wainwright.

As to your second question...what cliffdweller said.

[ 20. September 2013, 14:05: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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What struck me was the short time frame for the acceptance of the paper. If you click the link from the Metro site, you get straight to the paper. The header states that it was accepted for publication on the 9th of August, yet the atmospheric sampling took place on the 31st of July.

This means that the analysis of the samples, the write-up of the paper and the peer review process all took place in little over a week. That sounds most peculiar to me.

So, look up the Journal of Cosmology and what do we find? This: It's not a real scientific journal.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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As a brewing hobbyist, I spend a lot of time obsessing over yeast and other single cell organisms that do good or bad things to beer (and you thought you had no life.) What you quickly learn is that there are single cell organisms all over- the old passover tradition of removing the yeast from your house is impossible. Based on that, and given contemporary scientific views of evolution and life, I would consider it pretty much a no brainer that, at the very least, singe cell organisms exist on other planets. Space is huge. For me, it is much harder to believe that the rest of the universe is completely devoid of any form of life than to believe that there might be something resembling yeast on another planet. It seems that this study isn't the one to prove that it does exist, but I think it is a good reminder of what astrobiologists are looking for- anything that might count as life. If you accept evolution as some part of how we came to be (dead horse territory, I know, which is why I phrased it that way and why I do not invite any comment one way or another on that "if,") I think it would take quite a creative stretch of the imagination to then state that there is probably not life on other planets.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
balaam: Are the Yorkshire boffins right?
No. I understand that some very sloppy science has been done here. I don't believe their claim.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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These days, when reading a scientific paper, I always begin with the hypothesis that the scientist is going to make a funding application in the near future. Then I wait to be disproved.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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balaam:
quote:
Are the Yorkshire boffins right?
Well, they might be. But if so, as Doc Tor has already pointed out, it is entirely by accident. This 'proof' that life originated on other planets is no such thing. Quite apart from anything else, the stratosphere has been polluted many times by the passage of space vehicles (and at least one completely mad skydiver). I find it difficult to believe that all of them were clinically sterile.

I wonder if Professor Wainwright would like to buy a bridge.

quote:
...and if so how does that impact on the belief that God created the Earth?

Like a meteorite that makes a 'near-Earth' pass over in the next solar system. In other words, not at all.

[Snore]

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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
These days, when reading a scientific paper, I always begin with the hypothesis that the scientist is going to make a funding application in the near future. Then I wait to be disproved.

Why do you think my profile says "works in finance"? Publish or perish - that's the motto of the modern scientist.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909

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Let's be pedantic, 'cos it's fun. Even if the researcher's claims are 100% accurate (which is looking unlikely, vide ultra), that doesn't necessarily mean life on other planets. Just cells in space. Not the same thing.

But, I really hope there is life on other planets because I'm looking forward to meeting all those weird life forms in Heaven.

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Porridge
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# 15405

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Remember, though, that if they get there before you, you may be the one who's "weird."

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Remember, though, that if they get there before you, you may be the one who's "weird."

[Overused]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Let me be as scientific as the paper. The date of first contact with alien lifeforms is known to be 05 April 2063, the day of the first trial of warp drive, which attracts the attention of the Vulcans. They get introduced to R&B music initially.

We don't know all the details yet, because it is in the future. I suspect they like organ music a lot better, and spend a lot of time attending evensong. Unfortunately later we meet other aliens who introduce us to things like Klingon opera, but that's another story from the future.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Lord Jestocost: But, I really hope there is life on other planets because I'm looking forward to meeting all those weird life forms in Heaven.
I heard they have a really good Martian bartender there.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I suspect they like organ music a lot better, and spend a lot of time attending evensong.

[Killing me]

Surely aliens would be more in David Bowie?

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Jane R
Shipmate
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no prophet:
quote:
Unfortunately later we meet other aliens who introduce us to things like Klingon opera, but that's another story from the future.
Narn opera, on the other hand, has a small but devoted fan club.

The human story takes an unexpected twist in 2613, when a delegation of cetaceans persuades the Intergalactic Court of Sentient Rights to turn Earth over to them...

[ 20. September 2013, 16:16: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
balaam: Are the Yorkshire boffins right?
No. I understand that some very sloppy science has been done here. I don't believe their claim.
I'd agree. To have any proof they'd need to do a control reading, say send up a baloon before a comet comes along, then show there was a significant increase in the number of organisms.

Then repeat the experiment, many times. The problem being that there are not enough comets coming close enough. It could take some time.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I suspect they like organ music a lot better, and spend a lot of time attending evensong.

[Killing me]

Surely aliens would be more in David Bowie?

Or Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band I see my mention of Big eyed beans from Venus in the OP was missed.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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As far as I know, meteorite strikes, volcanoes, and atom bombs are all capable of knocking little things into the upper atmosphere.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

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Wouldn't the easiest explanation would be "Earth-source, carried up on the skins of the many rockets"?

Surely anything we've sent into space has carried many tiny biological hitchhikers?

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
So, look up the Journal of Cosmology and what do we find? This: It's not a real scientific journal.

Not only that, but according a post quoted by the same source, it is
quote:
obsessed with the idea of Hoyle and Wickramasinghe that life originated in outer space and simply rained down on Earth.


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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
As a brewing hobbyist, I spend a lot of time obsessing over yeast and other single cell organisms that do good or bad things to beer (and you thought you had no life.) What you quickly learn is that there are single cell organisms all over

I was recently working at a lab in Yorkshire with some University of Sheffield scientists. There was also an astro-biology project running there (though, I don't think any Sheffield scientists were involved). One of the things that project was doing was studying microorganisms found in the rock surrounding the lab - 1.1km underground in salts deposited 200M years ago. As microorganisms can live in dry salt, and that life persist for 100s of millions of years, then you're going to find microorganisms anywhere ... even the very upper reaches of the atmosphere.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
... little green men from Mars...

You leave us out of this. [Paranoid]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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leo
Shipmate
# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
... little green men from Mars...

You leave us out of this. [Paranoid]
Thought you were blue!

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Chamois
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# 16204

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Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Thought you were blue!
I think that's just the effect of the red Martian atmosphere - the red light makes colours appear different to Marvin.

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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases

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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

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The present scientific consensus is that all life on earth comes from a single organism. If alien life is floating up there in the stratosphere, and arrives all the time, as Wainwright suggests, why has none of it ever reproduced on earth? The 27k that he talks of is considerably lower that modern aeroplanes fly at, so there are all sorts of ways it could get up there. Due to the vastness of the universe, it's highly probable, IMO, that there is life elsewhere. But the earth is a very unusual place. We have an oversize moon that raises huge tides, which was once much closer. We have a tilt which creates seasons, and tectonic plates which move continents around. These factors drive evolution.

Ever since I was at school, more than 40 years ago, scientists have created primordial soups full of proteins and other building blocks of life and zapped them with electric charges, subjected them to extreme heat and cold ans anything else they could think of in order to create self-replicating DNA. It hasn't proved possible up to now. Even if organisms do exist elsewhere, there's no reason why they should form complex life forms or acquire intelligence, as these are totally unnecessary for survival. My faith wouldn't be shattered if ever we find life elsewhere, but I seriously doubt that we are being bombarded with alien organisms, and the genetic make up of these things in the atratosphere should be quite easy to determine.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
PaulTH*: The 27k that he talks of is considerably lower that modern aeroplanes fly at
Er... 27km = 88,500 feet. Most commercial planes cruise around 32,000 feet. There might be experimental planes that go higher, but 88,500 is really high.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Aircraft like the U2 spy plane will go above 25km. Weather balloons will go that high, and higher. And, as has been said, rocket launches into earth orbit by default go higher. There aren't that many aircraft, balloons and rockets at 25+ km though.

But, we know of several ways for stuff from the surface of the earth to get to very high altitudes. The above list of human devices, plus major volcanic eruptions. I don't know if there's been much work on whether material at lower altitudes can be carried higher by airflow in the upper atmosphere ... but even a very low rate of moving material upwards from the altitude of commercial airliners will move considerable amounts of stuff into the higher atmosphere.

And, then there's the question of once it's there how long it stays there. If residence times for micro-organisms carried into the upper atmosphere averages months then there won't be much there, if those residence times are measured in years then there almost has to be stuff up there from the worlds major volcanism and human high altitude flights etc.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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I can't skim this thread title without ending up at

quote:
...then I'm sure that he should know,

for he's been there once already,

and has died to save their sooohh-oh-oh-ohls...

RIP LN.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, then there's the question of once it's there how long it stays there. If residence times for micro-organisms carried into the upper atmosphere averages months then there won't be much there, if those residence times are measured in years then there almost has to be stuff up there from the worlds major volcanism and human high altitude flights etc.

Yep, and that seems to me to be somewhat more likely that lifeforms arising somewhere else in our solar system or beyond and somehow travelling to our atmosphere and somehow surviving the journey.

alienfromzog.
[Biased]

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
alienfromzog: Yep, and that seems to me to be somewhat more likely that lifeforms arising somewhere else in our solar system or beyond and somehow travelling to our atmosphere and somehow surviving the journey.
To be honest, it is this part that I have less doubts about. If we imagine that primitive life has arisen on Mars or Titan (which isn't impossible), it isn't such a stretch that it could have travelled to Earth. Our planet receives a lot of material for Mars each year, for example. And already here on Earth, there are lifeforms who could survive the vacuum and the radiation of Space (for example in a dormant state). This scenario is far from impossible.

What I do have serious doubts about, is whether the Sheffield results are proof that such a scenario has happened. The science of it is just too sloppy. It isn't even clear if what they discovered is really a lifeform, nor if it originated from Space.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
alienfromzog: Yep, and that seems to me to be somewhat more likely that lifeforms arising somewhere else in our solar system or beyond and somehow travelling to our atmosphere and somehow surviving the journey.
To be honest, it is this part that I have less doubts about. If we imagine that primitive life has arisen on Mars or Titan (which isn't impossible), it isn't such a stretch that it could have travelled to Earth. Our planet receives a lot of material for Mars each year, for example. And already here on Earth, there are lifeforms who could survive the vacuum and the radiation of Space (for example in a dormant state). This scenario is far from impossible.

What I do have serious doubts about, is whether the Sheffield results are proof that such a scenario has happened. The science of it is just too sloppy. It isn't even clear if what they discovered is really a lifeform, nor if it originated from Space.


(PS is it time already for me to post this one again? I posted it already a couple of times on the Ship, but I still like it [Biased] )

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550

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quote:
no prophet:

quote: Unfortunately later we meet other aliens who introduce us to things like Klingon opera, but that's another story from the future.

Narn opera, on the other hand, has a small but devoted fan club.

Why is no one mentioning Vogon poetry?

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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

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quote:
Originally posted by Trickydicky:
Why is no one mentioning Vogon poetry?

Because it's the third worst in the universe.

Obviously.

AFZ

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213

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Ted 100,000 feet up. Maybe this is what they found.

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en-GB&q=first+teddy+bear+in+space&gbv=2&rlz=1R2SUNC_enGB364&sa=X&oi=image_result_gro up&ei=ay4_UsC9A8q60wXusID4DQ&ved=0CCYQsAQ

[Edit: fixed link - RuthW, Temp host]

[ 23. September 2013, 03:18: Message edited by: RuthW ]

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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How absolutely pathetic. Utterly third rate.

By materialism, of course there is. By Fermi, Shklovskii and the absence of oxygen or water on all extrasolar planets so far ... there isn't. Not that it would make any difference, no. It would just stretch conservative theologies a tad.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: By materialism, of course there is. By Fermi, Shklovskii and the absence of oxygen or water on all extrasolar planets so far ... there isn't.
I'll put my bet on materialism [Smile]

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Don't we all. Despite the ever more astounding ... absence.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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BTW Where do you get the idea from that there's an absence of oxygen and water on extrasolar planets? Oxygen has already been observed on HD 209458b.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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It's trace, non-biogenic. Unless one would argue that its at the very beginning of an oxygen crisis, which is of course, absurd.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Especially with a surface temperature of 1130 K +/- 150.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: It's trace, non-biogenic. Unless one would argue that its at the very beginning of an oxygen crisis, which is of course, absurd.
Oh, it's non-biogenic for sure. This planet is so close to its star that it's literally boiling its atmosphere away (so an oxygen crisis would be the least of its worries). But the fact is: oxygen is there.

Oxygen and water are relatively simple chemical substances: it's just hydrogen and oxygen atoms, both of which are abundantly present in stars. We already know that these atoms put together can be found on several planetary (and other) bodies inside of our own Solar System.

The fact that we can discover oxygen on extrasolar planets is by no means trivial, yet we've already found oxygen on a planet that's 905,288,971,000,000 miles away!

It's rather safe to assume that it is present on other planets as well.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
... a planet that's 905,288,971,000,000 miles away!

[PEDANTRY]
At what time of year? [Razz] That looks like a few too many significant digits because that kind of precision would locate said planet to within a distance that is 1/100th of the distance between us and the sun!
[/PEDANTRY]

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Sigh, it's not biogenic.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Our planet receives a lot of material for Mars each year, for example. And already here on Earth, there are lifeforms who could survive the vacuum and the radiation of Space (for example in a dormant state). This scenario is far from impossible.

Though that material from Mars gets into space in the first place because of collisions on the surface - which generate quite a lot of heat, which is another thing that any life form would have to survive.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
and if so how does that impact on the belief that God created the Earth?

See CS Lewis' science fiction trilogy and the Poul Anderson story The Problem of Pain for just 2 possible aspects of the answer. Our writers have been addressing the question without waiting for the scientists.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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quote:
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Sigh, it's not biogenic.

Sigh, that's true [Biased]

quote:
W Hyatt: [PEDANTRY]
At what time of year? [Razz] That looks like a few too many significant digits because that kind of precision would locate said planet to within a distance that is 1/100th of the distance between us and the sun!
[/PEDANTRY]

At a Thursday evening on a leap year [Biased]

quote:
chris stiles: Though that material from Mars gets into space in the first place because of collisions on the surface - which generate quite a lot of heat, which is another thing that any life form would have to survive.
Well, I think that there are life forms that can.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405

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Science fiction writers seem to belong to two schools of thought: extra-planetary life forms generally evolve into or at least resemble creatures virtually indistinguishable from ourselves (except for leaving out all our best qualities), or, alternatively, they're so different from us that inter-species communication is impossible beyond the level of trying to wipe each other out.

From the content of these boards, there's no shortage of Shipmates who are apparently going with the first theory. How many time have you read "What planet are you from?"

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged
argona
Shipmate
# 14037

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This is a much more interesting hypothesis. The thought is that, as PaulTH says, primeval earth-conditions wouldn't have produced the complex molecules necessary for life, but there are reasons to believe that early Mars-conditions might have. Meteorite impacts then knock Martian rocks into space, many land on earth, some carry these molecules and whoosh... off evolution goes.

My thought was that, as has been mentioned here, there's a lot of high-energy stuff going on during that trip, not least the heat of entering Earth's atmosphere, so how would these molecules survive that?

Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged



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