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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Strange Fire
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
The christian blogosphere and twittersphere have been abuzz for the last week or so with discussion about Strange Fire.
For those who've not come across it, a new book is coming out next month with the same name, which is very strongly against the charismatic/pentecostal movements and seems (I have not had time to examine in full depth) to advocate cessationism.
There was a conference in America last week (see here) which has spawned a number of responses. Here are just a few for your perusal, I'm sure you can find more.
Think Theology
Adrian Warnock
Challies
I thought it might be interesting to see what you folk make of all this. Any cessationists out there?
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I love the phrase in the link:
"...a conference that will set forth what the Bible really says..."
There are so many conflicting versions of what the Bible REALLY says on [please insert pet topic] that I begin to despair of the use of the word 'really'!
I look forward to the day when a conference is advertised in the following way...
"...a conference that will set forth what we think the Bible seems to be saying..."
But, of course, we know that such a conference would not attract bums (or even butts) on seats.
(btw, I speak as a non-cessationist, on the basis of my humble and tentative interpretation of Acts 2:16-21)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not a cessationist either but my inclination is to shrug and say, 'Move along folks, there's nothing to see here ...'
A plague on both their houses, both the charismaniacs and the conservative, fundie cessationists ...
There is a more excellent way.
People have been writing books for and against this type of thing for years and will continue to do so.
Meanwhile, there are a lot more important things to worry about.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
have the organisers got nothing better to talk about?
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
( as in: why would anyone want to pay to go and listen to a series of people talking about what Other people are doing wrong?)
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
Ethne Alba:
quote:
as in: why would anyone want to pay to go and listen to a series of people talking about what Other people are doing wrong?
So that they can have their own views re-inforced and not think about other possibilities?
Or as Duncan MacLaren might put it, strengthen their plausibility structures?
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I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Hooray, a thread on this weird and wonderful phenomenon!
I've spent several days with a really dodgy internet connection trying to follow this on Twitter and would have started a thread here myself if I'd actually been able to reach the board....I've just spent 10 minutes trying to get on to Twitter but to no avail but I read on there the other day that at this conference there had also been some sort of negative comment about Catholics (of all shapes and sizes) with the words "false gospel" being bandied about.So I'm probably damned on both counts.....
This is reminiscent of the 1970s.
However the influence of the charismatic movement is now so embedded in church life that I would think this is fighting an old battle so what I want to know is why is there a resurgence of this stance now? I know several people who would take the same theological view with varying degrees of graciousness but this sounds like a last ditch stand for what some people hold to be "THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL. I think that often the timing of things eventually proves to have significant, so why now?
I am not cessationst just very cautious about some of the stuff that can be associated with the lunatic fringe and also no longer feel at home within charismatic culture but I have many dear friends within that forum for whom I have profound respect and who will find this hurtful/ offensive/ amusing!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think there is a resurgence of cessationism per se ... it's simply that Twitter, FB and blogs and so on gives more scope to spread news/views and so on and to add to the blogosphere ...
That said, I think old-school conservative style fundamentalism/evangelicalism (and yes, I know the two are distinct) is having a hammering from all sides.
Some of the ultra-Reformed in the US and elsewhere are very concerned about the New Perspective on Paul and even some of their own luminaries abandoning full-on conservative style neo-Calvinism. They're also a bit sick that some have even crossed the Tiber or the Bosphorus.
Meanwhile, at a more populist level perhaps, they've been losing ground to the charismatics for some time now. And the Emergent scene is worrying some of the dyed in the wool hardliners with its woollier take on things.
So it's hardly surprising they'll be chuntering and huffing and puffing and organising conferences and so on.
It's happened before. It'll happen again.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Frankly a plague on ALL their houses.
As an old-fashioned cradle CofE what I believe is between me and my maker, and the same goes for the people who go to church with me.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I s'pose that's rather the point ... the whole thing is simply an internal spat within a particular constituency that by no means represents Christianity as a whole ... although to hear some of its proponents speak you'd think it did.
I don't know why some of these people are getting so exercised about it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I was raised in a cessationist church but am no longer one. I always struggled with the teaching that the Holy Spirit only speaks to Christians through the Bible and that teaching is one of the main reasons I walked away from Christianity for many years. In my experience this teaching can lead to some pretty heavy eisegesis, because the Bible HAD to have the answer to every specific issue.
However there are problems in the charismatic community, especially in churches that seem to teach everyone can have the gifts that Jesus and the Apostles did if they have enough faith i.e. raising the dead, prophesying - with the unspoken converse that not having these gifts means one lacks faith. These are dangerous teachings in my views.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
cljfgige cas cvaaw viwoe awlefkasdcm dlwkerh ahonl
oh sorry, what was that? it just came over me ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think I'll just keep turning up at church and singing with the choir the stuff that makes sense to me. We'll still be there when the phenomenon is over and everyone is burnt out, like we were last time, and the time before. Those who then want to find us will find us.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
( as in: why would anyone want to pay to go and listen to a series of people talking about what Other people are doing wrong?)
Exactly. The internet provides this service for free.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Hello again all the usual suspects ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm sure there's a book on our shelves somewhere already with this exact title.
If there's a debate to be had today, it's perhaps not the cessationism/non-cessationism debate, which is really a non-starter for all but the most diehard cessasionists, but the issue of strange fire. At least the early charismatics made some attempt to justify their practices on the basis of Scripture. It seems to me that more and more of them are making little more than a superficial attempt to do even that. That indeed is "strange fire".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Hello again all the usual suspects [Big Grin]
Blimey, have I joined the SoF celebs......?!
The thing I struggle with (and yes the internet makes these things easier to spread) is the lack of respect for other people, talking about them rather than with them, making judgments which are not ours to make about their relationship with God, their chosen church allegiance. I've seen and heard this lack of grace at both ends of the cessationist/ charismatic spectrum.
Why oh why do people always have to prove they are "right" to other people rather than living by the light they believe they have received and listening to other people's experience even though it is not how see things?
Hardly the way to demonstrate the love of Christ to those who are steering clear of the church!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Consider (as I have invited people to do several times) Philippians 1:15-18: quote:
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill (...) The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Paul is eirenic enough to rejoice in Christ being preached irrespective of motives and personal feuds.
However, he does not shrink from spelling out what he sees as bad motives, and he has plenty to say elsewhere about preaching content other than Christ. In Galatians he relates how he opposed Peter to his face for his Judaising teaching. And in Corinthians he has a lot to say about the 'super-apostles'.
Inasmuch as the focus of teaching is not the gospel, it deserves to be questioned. Inasmuch as it makes extravagant, unverified claims people deserve to be warned about it.
Of course this should be done as graciously as possible, but I believe it is not the same as calling into question an individual's salvation. The Ship's own Purgatory is a great environment for constructive debate like this.
Finally, I don't think it does the Church any more good to pretend there isn't false teaching and testimony out there.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's nothing new in any of this. These things come in phases.
Back in the day there was a popular book called 'The Corinthian Catastrophe' that set out to debunk traditional Pentecostalism and the new-ish charismatic thing from a cessationist perspective.
Then, quite rightly in my view, in the 1980s and the '80s you had the likes of Hank Hanegraaf and other self-appointed 'heresy hunters' sniffing out and condemning some of the excesses of the health-wealth prosperity gospel and name-it-and-claim-it, blab-it-and-grab-it brigade.
The trouble was, commendable though the motives were, this kind of heresy-hunting cottage-industry could become quite strident and heavy-handed and counter-productive. I remember people leaping to the defence of the indefensible purely because they didn't like the tone of Hanegraaf and people like him.
More positively, I think, back in the mid/late 90s we had some critiques of charismatic modus operandi from 'critical friends' such as Andrew Walker, Tom Smail and Nigel Wright the Baptist. These men were certainly highlighting weaknesses and excesses, but they were doing so from a more positive position ie. not writing off everything that went on in those circles.
I was very comfortable with that kind of approach.
I'm less comfortable with the likes of MacArthur and co.
The internet does seem to draw out greater levels and degrees of stridency for some reason. All these guys would be better off sitting round a table with each other and having constructive debate.
Meanwhile, it's only a big deal for those for whom it's a big deal. Most people can live their lives completely oblivious to what does and doesn't go on in charismatic circles.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
All that said, I think there is 'strange fire' out there in the way that Eutychus has identified. I'd have no qualms in identifying much of what goes on around the Bill Johnson (Bilge Onson as one of our Shipmates has called him) and the Bethel axis as such.
There does seem to be some completely biblically indefensible activity going on in some quarters and it's even filtering into the mainstream charismatic scene within the denominational and historic churches.
Sometimes I think the entire charismatic well is poisoned, or at least tainted, by some of these newer developments.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Most people can live their lives completely oblivious to what does and doesn't go on in charismatic circles.
This dove is dead, it would not Voom if you put 5,000,000 volts through it.
[ 22. October 2013, 09:26: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Most people can live their lives completely oblivious to what does and doesn't go on in charismatic circles.
This dove is dead, it would not Voom if you put 5,000,000 volts through it.
I genuinely dont understand this last comment. I'm not taking the Mickey, I just dont understand what is being said. Can you expand?
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm less comfortable with the likes of MacArthur and co.
This latest conference by MacArthur et al, seem to be very much a reaction to his local circumstances (California). It also seems to be clear that he doesn't realise he has over-generalised from this.
Listening and reading to some of the stuff out of the conference, one would make the assumption that Pentecostalism started with Calvary Chapel and JOhn Wimber (who are the root of all ills apparently).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Most people can live their lives completely oblivious to what does and doesn't go on in charismatic circles.
This dove is dead, it would not Voom if you put 5,000,000 volts through it.
I genuinely dont understand this last comment. I'm not taking the Mickey, I just dont understand what is being said. Can you expand?
dead parrot sketch parrot - dove - holy spirit.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Of course this should be done as graciously as possible, but I believe it is not the same as calling into question an individual's salvation. The Ship's own Purgatory is a great environment for constructive debate like this.
That's exactly my point! I agree that sometimes positions and praxis need challenging but GRACIOUSLY. And not in a general context but eyeball to eyeball so we see the human face of those with whom we disagree. The thing I read on Twitter was seriously questioning the salvation of others from the safety of distance and without listening to their story. And that hurts. I know, it's been done to me. By people at various ends of the spectrum. Only last year someone from a very reformed background grilled me about being Anglican and especially about coming from a Cathedral, determined to see how "sound" I was. At the same time some of my very charismatic friends believe I have sold out because I'm no longer part of that scene. Only when we really talk do we understand one another and give ourselves a chance to understand what has formed us and even then, though we might differ hugely and even hate what the other stands for, we can still behave with grace instead of this horrible territorial stance which keeps rearing its head when we attempt to stand our ground.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It's the belief that Charismatic Gifts (or at least the more spectacular ones such as Miracles, Tongues and Prophecy) ceased after the first generation of the Church - or when the Biblical Canon had reached its substantive form.
Often (but not necessarily) goes with "Dispensationalism", the idea that God has divided up spiritual history into several "Dispensations" or epochs.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Best summary of the brouhaha comes from Rachel Held Evans, in a tweet dated 18 October:
"It's the evangelical apocalypse over there! All these white men yelling and throwing books at each other! :-)"
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I'm a charismatic-lite Anglican who respects a lot of folk in the Reformed tradition. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I doubt that John MacArthur and I would agree on much. And yes, he has painted with one heck of a broad brush. Consigning a bunch of fellow fundies to hell, whatever next! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) Just as well we Christians no longer burn each other at the stake for realz. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But I can't object to his skewering of the pernicious prosperity gospel/Word of faith rubbish.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Never heard of the term "cessationist" before, but I am rather sympathetic to it on first brief reading. If they ever occurred in ways that left out then possibility of doubt. Miracles and other wonderful things are in short supply and when claimed are easily explainable by other rational means.
I wonder about the parallel with post temple destruction Judaism which reinvented itself. Christianity seems to be wanting to reinvent itself presently.
The miracle-emphasizing charismaticals and pentacostals etc have explored that end in thoroughly unbelievable ways. The total rejectionist Dawkins end has gone fully the opposite way, in likewise unbelievable ways. Is there then a synthesis to the pentacostal thesis, its rejectionist antithesis dialectic with this idea?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Really interesting thread this.
For the beginner like me:
Which came first: cessationism or non-cessationism?
What is the main biblical support for cessationism?
What is main biblical support for non-cessationism?
Which "groups" (denominations or broader groupings) advocate cessationism and which non-cessationism?
Sorry if these questions are too basic or not answerable.
Thanks.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The Orthodox would say that Pentecostalism was simply an over-reaction to the rather Latinate, Scholastic tendencies inherent within Western Christianity and, at best, sought to re-establish a sense of the vatic and the numinous, a sense of the immanence of God.
I'd go along with that to a large extent.
The problem is that the whole thing then became a 'scene'.
For the MacArthur's of this world, it simply represents another 'other' with which to get all exercised about.
The significant feature of uber-conservative Reformed evangelical Christianity (rather, perhaps than the broader Reformed tradition which is wider than the evangelical expression of it) is that it always has to have an 'other' to rail against.
If it isn't Rome then it has to be something closer to home.
I s'pose this is inherent within any movement or stream/strand that sees itself as the arbiter of the Truth. Orthodoxy needs heterodoxy to define itself 'against'.
The conservative evangelical and fundamentalist Reformed types need the charismatic evangelicals and the liberals and the Catholics and everyone else who isn't a conservative evangelical and fundamentalist Reformed type to define themselves against.
It comes with the territory.
There is no way around it. For Mrs Beaky's Reformed friend to get off their high-horse and stop giving her a hard time for attending the cathedral for worship they would have to cease being 'Reformed' as they see it.
Meanwhile, plenty of other Reformed people without those kind of hang-ups wouldn't have that much of an issue with Mrs Beaky going to the cathedral at all.
These people get on my wick. I once read a blog-post by an American conservative evangelical Reformed lady who had visited Canterbury Cathedral whilst on holiday and wrote about it on her return as if if were the very seat of Satan.
She clearly either hadn't understood what she'd seen or didn't want to understand it.
I suspect the latter.
I wish they'd all sod off, to be honest. MacArthur and the loopier end of the charismatic spectrum alike. The trouble is, they don't look to be about to do so.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
For the MacArthur's of this world, it simply represents another 'other' with which to get all exercised about.
As I said I suspect very heavily that this conference is a reaction to MacArthur's own personal context (southern california), which has been generalised beyond that (rather unwisely).
This is quite evident from the fact that Calvary Chapel and John Wimber feature very heavily in the narrative coming out of this conference. In fact, they are almost put in the place of the founders of Pentecostalism. Now I know that Macarthur doesn't believe this - as his own previous books show that he has quite a detailed understanding of the various waves of Pentecostalism and how they interact - even if his books tend towards the polemic.
I shouldn't wonder if the major reason for this conference at this point is actually Bethel and it's derivatives - which from MacArthur's perspective is 'down the road'.
[ 22. October 2013, 14:19: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Francophile, the usual caveats and disclaimers apply, but Wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism
Essentially, though, cessationism is only really an issue for fundamentalists and conservative/charismatic evangelicals.
The big debate about it only kicked-off with the emergence of the Pentecostal movement (essentially a subset of fundamentalism) in the early 20th century.
It's not really a big issue at all if you are RC or Orthodox because both believe that a miracle takes place week by week and day by day in the Eucharist. Neither the RCs nor the Orthodox are cessationist as they have never ruled out the possibility of miracles and other supernatural 'gifts' - although the paradigm they use for understanding these things is different to that commonly found among charismatic Protestants.
In a nutshell, though, and this is broad-brush ... the groups that might be closely associated with cessationism would include:
- Most of the Plymouth Brethren (at least until comparatively recently).
- Most FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches) in the UK.
- Some Presbyterian groups in the UK and USA.
But in most denominations, such as the Southern Baptists, say, or the Baptist Union here in the UK it would be possible to encounter both cessationists and non-cessationists.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, Bethel and its derivatives would be 'down the road' for me too, and I'm not on the same page as MacArthur, Chris Stiles.
I think you're right though. The Southern Californian experience has coloured his perception all the way round.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Is there such a thing as liberal cessationism? It seems to be a teaching that would have more purchase in liberal contexts than evangelical ones, seeing as it implies a more de-mystified view of the modern world. Maybe it goes under a different name in more liberal contexts, or is taken as read and having no need of a name.
[Ah - partly answered by Gamaliel's posts, which crossed with mine.]
[ 22. October 2013, 14:30: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, liberal cessationism is different insofar as many (if not most?) full-on liberals wouldn't take the Biblical accounts of miracles as 'literal' in the first place.
Liberals tend to emphasise the metaphorical, symbolic and allegorical aspects of the miracle stories ... or use them as evidence of social inclusion and so forth - people who were 'unclean' or marginalised being made 'whole' and integrated into the community and so on.
These aspects - the literary/theological aspects if you like - do tend to be played down in many (if not most?) evangelical circles.
That's a very broad brush response and there are exceptions.
I've heard some interesting points about the theological/sociological/allegorical issues around some of the NT miracles in evangelical sermons, for instance.
In certain types of charismatic circles, though, the miracle stories are generally used as exemplars to aim at ... if only we had enough faith, or were able to master particular models or techniques etc etc ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Gamaliel - I was wondering how to answer, so I held back. You have done so admirably.
Your comments about Evangelicals ignoring the literary or symbolic aspects of Biblical texts are both interesting and often true, especially in relation to those who claim that they "just take the plain text of the Bible" without recognising that both writers and readers operate within a set of cultural preconceptions which will inevitably condition understanding.
The best of the Evangelicals wouldn't, of course, take such a simplistic point of view.
[ 22. October 2013, 17:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
Gamaliel, thank you for your helpful explanations on this thread.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
You get do get Reformed Charismatics and here is perhaps someone from the more Reformed stable also claiming that title.
Actually plenty out there if you know where to look. I have not even got to the Renewal Groups within PCUSA and URC.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Liberals tend to emphasise the metaphorical, symbolic and allegorical aspects of the miracle stories ... or use them as evidence of social inclusion and so forth - people who were 'unclean' or marginalised being made 'whole' and integrated into the community and so on.
I'm familiar with this approach, having spent a lifetime in MOTR congregations. It's fruitful in its way, and I wouldn't want to do away with it.
If I've understood it correctly, the cessationist approach is something of a dead end. It lacks the creativity of liberal readings of biblical texts, and also the hope and energy generated by charismatic readings. On a psychological level I can't see how it would appeal to very many people.
[ 22. October 2013, 18:38: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not sure the term "liberal" applies to this. The continuum would seem to be something other than this. Perhaps scepticism or fundamentalism.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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A Sojourner
Apprentice
# 17776
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All that said, I think there is 'strange fire' out there in the way that Eutychus has identified. I'd have no qualms in identifying much of what goes on around the Bill Johnson (Bilge Onson as one of our Shipmates has called him) and the Bethel axis as such.
There does seem to be some completely biblically indefensible activity going on in some quarters and it's even filtering into the mainstream charismatic scene within the denominational and historic churches.
Sometimes I think the entire charismatic well is poisoned, or at least tainted, by some of these newer developments.
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If you don't mind me inquiring, what sort of "Strange Fire" have you heard about coming from Bethel... I'm honestly interested as Bethel has suddenly become quite big in many of the circles I'm in and I would be interested on your opinions on it...
Anyone else should feel free to respond as well...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 22. October 2013, 21:13: Message edited by: A Sojourner ]
Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What a great thread. Thank you for coming to my little show tonight and I love you all. Gamaliel, would please run for vice-Pope? Co-Pope? Pope-in-waiting? Although admittedly I don't want the present one to go.
I'm post-cessationist, post-charismatic me. As tongues and prophecy and spiritual gifts in general, in fact anything written about by a Christian Jew to a few disparate groups of gentiles from peculiar cultures two thousand years ago, has little to teach us except how to find a way forward together all with our funny little ways.
Which those above all exemplify.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
My tanner's worth on this.
1. The argument that at the moment when St John put down his pen at the end of 22:21, instantaneously all prophecies failed, tongues ceased, knowledge vanished away and there could be no more miracles, wherever else it may come from, is untenable from scripture.
2. Some Pentecostalists are an embarrassment to the faith. Nobody can deny this. That therefore everything associated or influenced by anything from the Pentecostal movement must be utterly not-of-God is a non sequitur of spectacular proportions. If a tree produces only bad fruit or no fruit at all, that is an indicator. If a tree produces quite a lot of good fruit and a few that are bruised, or that the worms get into, that doesn't mean that the good fruit is also bad.
3. To call what appears to be good fruit, bad, is very dangerous spiritual territory to get into.
4. Svitlana, I'm interested in your idea of liberal cessationism. Technically, I think Gamaliel's answer is right. However, I think quite a lot of liberal Christianity is C18 deism in modern form with a deep fear and shock at the very thought that God might intervene in the world at all, or that the Holy Spirit might ever be more than a sweet influence, or the beneficent consequences of their own initiatives for peace and justice.
5. Because liberals explain away miracles, there's a tendency in some circles with a strong commitment to biblical authority to assume that the miracles are recorded merely to show that Jesus can do signs and wonders. That's true and it is one of the reasons why they are there. However, which ones the evangelists chose to record and how they tell them is very much driven by what that miracles might be saying about the good news. John describes the miracles he chooses as 'signs', but the same applies to the other three.
6. I've heard plenty of excellent sermons over the years, though, from people who recognise this, a lot of them being more thoughtful and theologically educated CofE evangelical clergy.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
What Enoch said. Also agreeing with Laurelin and MrsBeaky on how important it is that we Christians can disagree with grace and mutual respect, rather than calling each other's very status with God into question. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This seems to be a charismatic thread where feelings aren't running high and where there is a lot of broad agreement.
I'm interested in SvitlanaV2's point about cessationism not being psychologically satisfying and I think that's an interesting one. It suspect it is psychologically satisfying to its proponents on a number of levels:
1. It avoids the psyching up and the 'guilt' ('We didn't have enough faith ...') that so often accompanies some (but by no means all) charismatic attempts to 'do the stuff' (to use a Wimber phrase).
2. It can be used to reinforce the view of one's group as a 'faithful remnant' and/or those too sensible to be taken in by over-egged or extravagant claims.
3. It can reinforce the view that one is in the 'right' and perfectly 'sound.'
Meanwhile, I agree with both Baptist Trainfan and Enoch that at their best there are charismatic evangelicals around who do take a broader and less simplistic view of the NT miracle accounts.
I also have sympathy with Enoch's view that much of contemporary liberal Christianity is simply a warmed-up version of 18th century Deism.
There is a way between the Scylla of fundamentalism and the Charybdis of full-on and (dare I say?) apostate liberalism.
But the channel can be hard to navigate at times without getting splashed by the choppy waters on either side.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Help me understand. In my parish there are some liberal people, i.e., marital equality for gay people, social gospel/ socialist, environmentalist, anti-military, who also believe in miracles, run a healing ministry, go to bible studies.
Are you folks using liberal to mean educated? worldly? or can rationally explain things?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
For those who've not come across it, a new book is coming out next month with the same name, which is very strongly against the charismatic/pentecostal movements and seems (I have not had time to examine in full depth) to advocate cessationism.
..
You make it sound like cessationism was dormant or something.
Nothing new here really, expect maybe people have done more discussion this time on twitter.
Advent should squash the discussion's passion.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Help me understand. In my parish there are some liberal people, i.e., marital equality for gay people, social gospel/ socialist, environmentalist, anti-military, who also believe in miracles, run a healing ministry, go to bible studies.
Are you folks using liberal to mean educated? worldly? or can rationally explain things?
In the UK the political and theological liberalism that you are conflating are two completely different things, although they might overlap on some issues and in some individuals.
On this thread being theologically liberal implies a mainstream Christian tendency to present the faith as rational, not wedded to literal readings of supposedly miraculous events, especially in the modern world, even though the presence of the divine is affirmed. (There are degrees to this; people may be committed to the miraculous in some circumstances but not others.)
I'm curious about the various strands that have fed into this kind of contemporary liberalism. Some online commentators see the revivalist/Pentecostal/charismatic heritage as significant factors. Yet the Reformed tradition (of which cessationism seems to be a part) has clearly undergone a greater degree of overall retrenchment, which should, in sociological terms, indicate a steeper ongoing process of liberalisation.... I haven't yet put my finger on what this all means.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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