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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Couples composed of women are more likely to go through pregnancy and birth than male couples - this surely puts pressure on the relationship, just as it does for different-gender relationships.

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Originally posted by Enoch:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Couples composed of women are more likely to go through pregnancy and birth than male couples - this surely puts pressure on the relationship, just as it does for different-gender relationships.

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Couldn't that work the other way round?

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Originally posted by Enoch:

The question, of course, is 'to what do they point?' Traditionally, it has always been assumed that it is men that are more given to infidelity, who sit looser on commitment. These figures suggest otherwise. Or is there some other explanation?

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Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
I suspected, and the statistics seem to confirm, that gay men are less likely to enter into civil partnerships in the first place and are, on average, older when they do enter them.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Statistics on civil partnerships available here reveal something very puzzling. From 2011 (linked pdf here), the equivalent release from 2010 ( pdf also downloadable from the same site) and an excel chart downloadable from the site, it appears that civil partnerships between women are significantly more likely to end up being dissolved than those between men...

[snip]

...Obviously, the statistics on the dissolution of heterosexual unions are bound to indicate that the same number of men get divorced as women.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Couples composed of women are more likely to go through pregnancy and birth than male couples - this surely puts pressure on the relationship, just as it does for different-gender relationships.

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Couldn't that work the other way round?

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It could if one of the male couple were trans, but while a cis gay male couple can go through surrogacy or adoption, they're not actually going to go through pregnancy.

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Yes, but the statistics on the dissolution of heterosexual unions do indicate that more women file for divorce than men, which could explain your anomaly.

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Originally posted by bib:
I have worked with two lesbians living together who have both had children by the same gay male who also lives with them. I find this rather bizarre as both females are called Mummy and the male is known by all the children as Daddy. To my way of thinking this is just like a polygamous marriage and must be confusing for the children.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this is guessing. You need some more stats on divorce.

It's possible that women just get dissatisfied with marriage more than men, not because of adultery. But are there any stats on this?

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Originally posted by Enoch:
That would fit the centuries old assumption of unfaithful men letting down dutiful women.

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Originally posted by bib:
I have worked with two lesbians living together who have both had children by the same gay male who also lives with them. I find this rather bizarre as both females are called Mummy and the male is known by all the children as Daddy. To my way of thinking this is just like a polygamous marriage and must be confusing for the children.

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For the children concerned, it's normal. They may in fact feel sorry for all those kids with only 2 parents.

EDIT: And I haven't the slightest idea why I'm allowing myself to help you perpetuate a complete tangent from the point of the thread.

[ 08. September 2013, 14:11: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Women tend to be more fluid in sexuality and there is less social stigma for bisexual women than for bisexual men. I've known a few women who were in serious relationships with other women but after awhile realized they preferred men after all. I also know an engaged self-identified lesbian who constantly talks about which men she finds attractive. On the other hand it's much rarer for men to flit between committed relationships with both genders; certainly rarer to be open about it. So it may be the case that some lesbian partnerships end due to a reexamination of one or both partners' sexuality.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Women tend to be more fluid in sexuality and there is less social stigma for bisexual women than for bisexual men. I've known a few women who were in serious relationships with other women but after awhile realized they preferred men after all. I also know an engaged self-identified lesbian who constantly talks about which men she finds attractive. On the other hand it's much rarer for men to flit between committed relationships with both genders; certainly rarer to be open about it. So it may be the case that some lesbian partnerships end due to a reexamination of one or both partners' sexuality.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
They may in fact feel sorry for all those kids with only 2 parents.

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Originally posted by Enoch:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Yes, but the statistics on the dissolution of heterosexual unions do indicate that more women file for divorce than men, which could explain your anomaly.

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Not really. That would fit the centuries old assumption of unfaithful men letting down dutiful women. But if that assumption were correct, female same sex relationships would have a much lower dissolution rate than male ones.

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I've certainly seen similar things said before - the only problem is that it doesn't seem to be borne out in the peer-reviewed literature I have seen. I've just been looking at data for proportions of the population having both recent and lifetime experiences with both sexes, and men show up as about as likely in all the lifetime, last five years and last 12 months categories.

Your comment on the relative level of stigmatization might be the answer to that - i.e. women feel freer to discuss it.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
[QUOTE]Apart from Lucia, it's surprising, isn't it, how squeamish so many of us are of the possibility that the two sexes might have different standards of behaviour. After all, there's an inherent inconsistency in the very phrase 'flit between committed relationships', and that is irrespective of whether the other parties in the successive relationships all belong to the same sex or not.

One would have thought the idea was that, whether marriage or civil partnership, once a person has entered into it, that is for life. So one of the things they give up is exploring alternative sexual fluidities.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I've certainly seen similar things said before - the only problem is that it doesn't seem to be borne out in the peer-reviewed literature I have seen. I've just been looking at data for proportions of the population having both recent and lifetime experiences with both sexes, and men show up as about as likely in all the lifetime, last five years and last 12 months categories.

Your comment on the relative level of stigmatization might be the answer to that - i.e. women feel freer to discuss it.

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I think the point about committed relationships is key - I believe men are as likely to engage in bisexual behavior as women. I do not however observe men in committed relationships who openly go from woman to man to woman. Perhaps they want to, but it's not as socially acceptable.

I think homosexuality in men is judged much more harshly by society than in women. Many men who claim to hate homosexuality will openly admit to interest in same-sex activities between women.

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I think the point about committed relationships is key

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Granted I spent a number of years in California so my view might be skewed, but often I was the only woman in a group who had NOT had a relationship with another woman. I'm talking 1+ years, in some cases living together, public to their parents and colleagues, etc.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Granted I spent a number of years in California so my view might be skewed, but often I was the only woman in a group who had NOT had a relationship with another woman. I'm talking 1+ years, in some cases living together, public to their parents and colleagues, etc.

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I've spent almost my whole life in California, and the past 20 years in a gay-friendly city in California, and the vast majority of the women I know who don't explicitly identify themselves as lesbians have not had a long-term relationship with another woman. Which I guess is just another way of saying the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Granted I spent a number of years in California so my view might be skewed, but often I was the only woman in a group who had NOT had a relationship with another woman. I'm talking 1+ years, in some cases living together, public to their parents and colleagues, etc.

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I've spent almost my whole life in California, and the past 20 years in a gay-friendly city in California, and the vast majority of the women I know who don't explicitly identify themselves as lesbians have not had a long-term relationship with another woman. Which I guess is just another way of saying the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

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Of course. But I could also point to Anne Heche and Lindsay Lohan as as additional examples. Again not data, but I can't think of any male celebrity in a similar situation.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I may well betray myself as deeply uncool, but I've never heard of either of these two people. But searching them on Wikipaedia, what are they being cited as evidence of? Are they just mixed up, or are their lives saying something more? If so, what? I'm not picking up the allusion.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I may well betray myself as deeply uncool, but I've never heard of either of these two people. But searching them on Wikipaedia, what are they being cited as evidence of? Are they just mixed up, or are their lives saying something more? If so, what? I'm not picking up the allusion.

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Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm not sure about it, but isn't their a social angle and social perception angle?

When same sex marriage became legal in Canada the gay and lesbian couples we know seemed to suggest the idea of equality in marriage does not mean "just like hetero marriage". It seemed to me that the legalisation means that lesbian and gay people now have the possibility to explore what the differences and similarities are with the same equal rights as heterosexual couples. Equal ≠ identical. I suspect that there will be a difference when marital equality has existed for many years as compared to what it looks like now.

It would be really interesting to know from some people who really know (and if there is data) what the differences with marriages are. (And if I am wrong that there are differences, then I apologise, though admitting I'd be a little surprised.)

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

I think homosexuality in men is judged much more harshly by society than in women. Many men who claim to hate homosexuality will openly admit to interest in same-sex activities between women.

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
There is also a growing body of evidence that, contrary to stereotype, women are more prone to sexual boredom with a long-term partner, and more responsive to sexual novelty than men (see What Do Women Want by Daniel Bergner). The "lesbian bed death" cliche well-known to couples therapists is one anecdotal version of this, but there is actual research. It may be that gay men are better at keeping the flame burning (and more tolerant of partners who wander in search of sparks).

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Originally posted by no prophet:
... When same sex marriage became legal in Canada the gay and lesbian couples we know seemed to suggest the idea of equality in marriage does not mean "just like hetero marriage". It seemed to me that the legalisation means that lesbian and gay people now have the possibility to explore what the differences and similarities are with the same equal rights as heterosexual couples. Equal ≠ identical...

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Were these relationships 'committed'? They don't sound it.

So far as anyone else knows, did either of them give serious commitments to the other party in either relationship? That a relationship lasts longer than a few weeks doesn't make it 'committed'. There are heterosexuals who interpret flat-sharing as including not just kitchen, electricity bill, TV licence etc, but also body fluids. Might not there be some people who have this attitude irrespective of the sex of their flat mate? That doesn't mean they are committed, or that this is a life choice the rest of us might respect or want to recommend to our children.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I think homosexuality in men is judged much more harshly by society than in women.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
Romantic relationships, living together, 1 year or longer. Is that "committed" enough? Some of these women were close friends of mine so your insinuation that I'm confusing a flatmate with a girlfriend is a bit unfair.

How old are you? It might make a difference. I'm a "millennial" as they call it and we might be more fluid in our relationships than other generations.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
I said that among women I knew in northern California a good number had had a committed relationship with a woman but then returned back to men. When challenged I named two famous women who publicly had live in committed relationships with other women and then went back to men. I think that's more than reasonable for internet message boards surely. I never claimed to speak for everyone.

There's no need for snarkiness just because you don't relate. The world is pretty big therefore we have different experiences and social groups.

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