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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Has exercise replaced piety (and religion sex)?
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
This occurred to me just now, as I was walking home, when I cam across a new acquaintance and potential friend (we literally only met yesterday, but he seems nice enough and lives near by). We exchanged pleasantries, and he indicated that he'd just been for a run and asked what I'd been doing with my Sunday. 'Nothing much', I replied. In fact, of course, I'd been up, said Mattins to myself and attended Mass. But I would never have said that. He would probably have thought it weird. In a sense, it is weird.
But two things strike me. We now talk about religion the way we talked about sex, until about 1963 (when sexual intercourse began, according to Larkin): something that's a bit dubious but not inherently wrong if practiced by consenting adults in private. I generalize excessively, of course. But I think that most people under the age of, say, forty living in the UK (and probably most of Northern and North-western Europe as well) would be more comfortable discussing their sexual preferences and practices than their religious beliefs (if they have any, which of course many don't). I'm certainly much more open, at work and in normal social life, about being gay than about being a communicant Anglican.
This is all, of course, very new. If one reads a Renaissance Biography of a political figure, one finds plenty of detail about how the subject's prayer life. Roper's life of More, for instance, tells us about Thomas More would get up early in the morning to say the litany and the seven penitential psalms. This wasn't only part of personal devotional life, but it was part of the image he wanted to project. No biography of a lay person written in the 21st century would mention that.
BUT, I did read an article about Haruki Murakami that mentioned in reverent terms how he gets up every morning to run some promethean distance.
And it strikes me. We ascribe to exercise the qualities we used to ascribe to prayer. That is to say that every one, except a few rakish bohemians, regards it as good. To exercise a lot is a sign of virtue, just as praying a lot used to be. It's so common to hear 'I really need to exercise more' (I've certainly said this), but when was the last time you heard someone, even in church circles, say that 'I really need to go to Mattins/Mass/Benediction/what have you more often'. I'm not sure that I ever have. Even most priests sometimes give the impression that they think daily communicants are a bit unhinged. People who run daily are held up as moral examples, though. I'm not sure that any previous society has ever drawn such a clear link between exercise and virtue (even Plato the wrestler found the relationship problematic, as did almost every Greek writer, except perhaps Pindar who was after all being paid by athletes).
Am I unhinged, or am I right in thinking that a vigorous exercise routine has no replaced, more or less entirely, piety in our moral discourse?
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Am I unhinged, or am I right in thinking that a vigorous exercise routine has no replaced, more or less entirely, piety in our moral discourse?
Well, if you're too embarrassed to say that you've been to church then clearly piety has no place in your public moral discourse! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I don't mind mentioning that I've been to church if it's relevant to the conversation; to me that's not equivalent to pushing my religious beliefs down someone else's throat. Until quite recently I spent a lot of time at church, so it's only natural that that would come up occasionally in conversation. But it doesn't normally dominate the conversation. I live in quite a pluralistic environment, so people don't get flustered by mention of something a little bit religious.
Re the wider society, it's clear that leisure activities have largely taken up the time that might once have been spent in religious participation. Some sociologists see sport as a functional replacement for religion.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some sociologists see sport as a functional replacement for religion.
In that people who claim that they support a football club but never attend services have replaced people who claim to be Christian without attending church — they could be right there.
In that some of the people on the terraces are the same people in the pews the next day, it sounds more like a false dichotomy.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus
Am I unhinged, or am I right in thinking that a vigorous exercise routine has no replaced, more or less entirely, piety in our moral discourse?
You are certainly not unhinged! I think your post is full of insight, and, as far as I am concerned, your observation is spot on.
After I read it, I remembered a particular piece of sports commentary by the British athletics commentator Steve Cram. This was when Usain Bolt broke his own world record for the 100m in Berlin. I certainly appreciate the fact that we should admire this tremendous achievement and put our admiration into appropriate language. But it got to the point (2.49 in the video) where I felt the commentator wasn't so much admiring Bolt as worshipping him: "The world belongs to Bolt... stunning, absolutely stunning: they are adjectives which are inadequate to describe this man... he is brilliant beyond compare..." etc... ad nauseam... I felt that at the time and I still feel this is the case. Now I am sure many people will disagree with me, and argue that Cram was just over-excitedly telling the truth about this athlete (whom I also greatly admire, by the way), and all I can say is that this was my entirely subjective perception. But it is rather strange that world beating athletes in other disciplines are not eulogised in the same way. It's as if, in the pantheon of lesser brilliant achievers, we need a super-achiever to sit as the head of the pantheon. It seems to fulfil a deep need.
Furthermore, I have noticed that in other sports there seems to be a concern to establish who is the greatest player of all time, be it tennis or snooker, for example. My feeling is: who cares? Does it matter? Do we need a "greatest player of all time"? Why?? In football (soccer) there is a frequent discussion as to who is the greatest player in the world: Messi or Ronaldo? This obsession seems inappropriate for a team sport.
At times I think that society is trying to fashion certain celebrities - particularly sport stars - into gods. And to think that these 'gods' are supposed to be "role models". So children are to learn their morals from young men and women who just happen to be good at certain sports. The less experience they have of life, the better, apparently! I exaggerate of course, but sometimes that's the way it seems...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some sociologists see sport as a functional replacement for religion.
In that people who claim that they support a football club but never attend services have replaced people who claim to be Christian without attending church — they could be right there.
In that some of the people on the terraces are the same people in the pews the next day, it sounds more like a false dichotomy.
I think the main idea is that football matches (for example) may be an outlet for supporters to express the kind of fervour and passion that might otherwise be permitted in a high octane religious environment. In a secular environment, and especially with the decline of indigenous working class spiritual vitality, there's little call for such levels of spiritual passion, but it can be put to use in sports fandom.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I agree that exercise has replaced piety and would put it a little broader into "fitness has replaced religion." I'm largely basing my opinion on my shameful years of watching, "Big Brother," and "Survivor," and then reading the thoughts about them on the "Television Without Pity," message boards.
Religious contestants are usually hated and accused of pushing their religion down everyone's throat even if all they do is suggest saying grace. People who exercise publicly are greatly admired. Men and women with thin muscular bodies are assumed to be superior at challenges, even after demonstrating the opposite over and over.
The latest "Big Brother," cast included an attractive yoga instructor and the more time she spent practicing her poses -- in the yard, in the middle of rooms where people were talking, in the kitchen -- the more her fan base grew until she was spoken of in the most glowing of terms including "dipped in gold."
To the fitness elite, meat eaters are disgusting sinners and should wear shirts with big red "M"s on them.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think ours is a culture of many cults. Fitness is one, sex is another, and I'm sure there are folks who worship freely at both.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I agree that exercise has replaced piety and would put it a little broader into "fitness has replaced religion." I'm largely basing my opinion on my shameful years of watching, "Big Brother," and "Survivor," and then reading the thoughts about them on the "Television Without Pity," message boards.
Religious contestants are usually hated and accused of pushing their religion down everyone's throat even if all they do is suggest saying grace. People who exercise publicly are greatly admired. Men and women with thin muscular bodies are assumed to be superior at challenges, even after demonstrating the opposite over and over.
The latest "Big Brother," cast included an attractive yoga instructor and the more time she spent practicing her poses -- in the yard, in the middle of rooms where people were talking, in the kitchen -- the more her fan base grew until she was spoken of in the most glowing of terms including "dipped in gold."
To the fitness elite, meat eaters are disgusting sinners and should wear shirts with big red "M"s on them.
Another example of the false dichotomy, as if those who exercise are in some way different to those who are religious.
You can be one or the other or you can do neither, or even both. My son went to Church this morning and is now in the Gym. As for Big Brother, was 2003 winner Cameron Stout known for being an atheist?
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In a secular environment, and especially with the decline of indigenous working class spiritual vitality, there's little call for such levels of spiritual passion, but it can be put to use in sports fandom.
If the working classes can afford to attend at today's prices.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
To the fitness elite, meat eaters are disgusting sinners and should wear shirts with big red "M"s on them.
At the last Olympics, non-meat eaters were in such a minority that commentators felt they should mention the fact.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
EtymologicalEvangelical: In football (soccer) there is a frequent discussion as to who is the greatest player in the world: Messi or Ronaldo?
Er... when was the last time you heard these discussions? Messi is still up there, but Ronaldo??
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Oops...should have clarified that I was talking about Cristiano Ronaldo.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
As coincidence has it, someone blogged this today.
The blogger likens sports fanaticism to tribal religions rather than the Abrahamic faiths. It still has hints of the false dichotomy I have mentioned up thread. I didn't say I agreed with it all, but ut brings something interesting to the debate.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
But two things strike me. We now talk about religion the way we talked about sex, until about 1963 (when sexual intercourse began, according to Larkin): something that's a bit dubious but not inherently wrong if practiced by consenting adults in private. I generalize excessively, of course. But I think that most people under the age of, say, forty living in the UK (and probably most of Northern and North-western Europe as well) would be more comfortable discussing their sexual preferences and practices than their religious beliefs (if they have any, which of course many don't).
I agree that in the present day many people are embarrassed to talk about religion, but not about sex. However, this change was well underway in the 1930s. In C. S. Lewis's sci-fi novel, That Hideous Strength a character who can speak freely about all forms of sexual activity is acutely embarrassed to hear someone speak openly about religion.
Moo
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
]
To the fitness elite, meat eaters are disgusting sinners and should wear shirts with big red "M"s on them.
That is absolutely not the case in all quarters. Check out the paleo diet, the Primal Blueprint (another flavor of paleo) or talk to anyone heavily into CrossFit (a type of physical training). It is meat meat meat all the way, and vegetarians are roundly dissed. I'm into exercise myself, and the whole paleo/Primal thing has made big inroads with lots of people (not me).
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
Don't forget the high priest of unbelief who tweeted just this morning:
quote:
Humbled and honoured by the huge book signing line tonight at GWU. People drove from Mass, Florida, S Carolina etc.
And
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Humbled and honoured by the numbers of people in book signing lines, e.g. at GWU tonight, who tell me my books have changed their life.
Yes. That is Richard Dawkins speaking in quasi religious tones about his fans! When do fans become worshipers?
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
he gets up every morning to run some promethean distance.
What is the connection between Prometheus and long-distance running?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
As coincidence has it, someone blogged this today.
The blogger likens sports fanaticism to tribal religions rather than the Abrahamic faiths. It still has hints of the false dichotomy I have mentioned up thread. I didn't say I agreed with it all, but ut brings something interesting to the debate.
I went to a football match once - I found it very tribal!
This (old) article put it pretty well.
"The fact that sport can unleash primitive emotions is not a reason to condemn it. Since such feelings cannot simply be wished away, it is better to allow for their ritual expression, just as fears of death, violence and decay find expression in religion or bull fighting. Even though some football games have provoked violence, and in one case even a war, they might have served the positive purpose of containing our more savage impulses by deflecting them onto a mere sport."
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Yes. That is Richard Dawkins speaking in quasi religious tones about his fans! When do fans become worshipers?
As an autotheist, he does of course worship himself. It's probably completely logical to whatever sits between his ears that others would follow as well.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
There are also good argument that tourism has replace pilgrimage.
Very interesting.
One thing I've noticed is that pilgrimages to traditional Catholic places are often 'pitched' as attractive to people of all faiths or none. In other words, these journeys seem to offer some kind of spiritual growth, but it's no longer exclusively Catholic or even theistic.
People talk about going on pilgrimages to the Holy Land, but I've never been that keen on the idea. It's never been clear to me what the spiritual (as opposed to the intellectual) benefit would be.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Another example of the false dichotomy, as if those who exercise are in some way different to those who are religious.
You can be one or the other or you can do neither, or even both. My son went to Church this morning and is now in the Gym.
Well yes, of course. I've worked out almost every single day except Sunday for the past fifty years and usually eat an extremely healthy diet. My post above wasn't directed at people who simply try to be healthy but people who have made fitness the center of their lives and are judgmental of those who aren't into the whole fitness lifestyle -- in the same way that some people in the past used to be judgmental about those who didn't meet certain religious/moral standards.
It's a sore point with me because I seem to have been receiving unasked for exercise advice my entire life, that's what started me working out so young, taking ballet lessons and jogging. Just two weeks ago, a small group of ladies met me after church to suggest that if I just tried to walk without my cane (and did my rehab exercises!)) I would soon be able to do without it! I had to patiently explain to them that while the bones in my leg had healed two years ago, I no longer had an MCL or ACL to hold my knee firmly in place and would always need the cane for stabilization. I had told them all this last year but I guess they needed refreshed.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dal Segno:
There are also good argument that tourism has replace pilgrimage.
I think pilgrimage in the Middle Ages was partly tourism. The pilgrims in Canterbury Tales don't seem to be thinking about religion all the time. Pilgrimage was a good excuse for travelling.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
In sociology what going to a sports tournament is seen to share with religious practice is what is called transcendence. That is the sensation of being part of something that is bigger than what you are as an individual. It is not only sports events that do this, but rock concerts, royal pageantry such as Will and Cait's wedding etc. This is not news. It must have been around for over forty years. I can remember it being talked about in my childhood in the 1970s & 1980s.
So that these things occur is not in itself enough to make the claim exercise has replaced piety. Yes these shows share aspects with religion but is that enough. What makes a religious behaviour religious. The transcendence experience has always been shared with other sorts of cultural event. The analogy of religious behaviour to exercise holds some truth, but the million dollar question is can it go beyond analogy and become identical with. To do that you have to decide what religion is.
You will be sorry to learn that on that there is no agreement. There are substantive culturally different conceptions on what religion is from the Catholic culture of Southern Europe to the Protestant on North West. This is before you go outside Christendom. A definition of religion that is wide enough to encompass all the range of behaviours that we want to define as religious and yet is distinct from behaviour in general is hard to produce. I know of no successful attempt to date.
So before we get anywhere near being able to answer the OP we need to talk about what piety is and what role we see it as filling in society. In England the prohibition on talking about religion or religious practice in polite society is very deeply rooted indeed. It would be difficult to argue that sports had replaced it as an acceptable topic of conversation in the last twenty years. It simply was not acceptable to talk about religion twenty years ago either.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Jengie Jon wrote:
In sociology what going to a sports tournament is seen to share with religious practice is what is called transcendence. That is the sensation of being part of something that is bigger than what you are as an individual. It is not only sports events that do this, but rock concerts, royal pageantry such as Will and Cait's wedding etc. This is not news. It must have been around for over forty years. I can remember it being talked about in my childhood in the 1970s & 1980s.
Nevertheless, something has changed.
It seems to me that there are very interesting usages of the language of purity and contamination in relation both to religion and to exercise (which I would want to say is a separate cultural phenomenon from organised sport).
People often talk about exercise such as running, or yoga in terms which remind me of ideas about holiness -- they use metaphors of rebirth, of cleanness, of separation from the concerns of the world, of reaching out to something beyond themselves.
On the other hand, I'm struck by the ways in which people talk about religion (specifically Christianity and Islam) in the language of contamination and fear. I was fascinated recently by a social-media discussion about a school pupil who had refused to write the words 'I believe in God' as part of an exercise in identifying statements of various kinds. There was clearly a fear that simply writing the words would have a contaminating effect; and this isn't an isolated example (one of the more shocking ones was hearing a head of department say in a shortlisting 'we wouldn't want one of those here' about a candidate she suspected might be a Christian).
I am not saying that exercise is religion (not quite, anyway); more that the language people use to talk about it was in the past associated with religious belief and practices. And, on the other hand, the language people use to talk about religious belief is coming to be that with which, in the past, they talked about (for example) black people and homosexuals.
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http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niminypiminy:
[
I am not saying that exercise is religion (not quite, anyway); more that the language people use to talk about it was in the past associated with religious belief and practices. And, on the other hand, the language people use to talk about religious belief is coming to be that with which, in the past, they talked about (for example) black people and homosexuals.
Yes, that's very close to what I meant in the OP, but expressed more coherently. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
It seems to me that physical fitness, or the pursuit thereof, is seen as a sign of a worthy life. Not so long ago, it was the pursuit of holiness. Something changed between a monk standing in a frigid loch and being canonized for it and the latter day luminaries expressing their holy wisdom to their devout followers through the means of fitness columns. Well, actually, it would seem that quite a lot has changed.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There is something to the comparison. I was at a conference in Montréal some years ago. The old Montreal Forum building was within walking distance. For those not informed, the Canadiens are the winningest sports franchise in North America (probably the world). The sport, the only one that really matters, is hockey (and we don't say "ice hockey", because that is only type that matters).
It turned out that I was there at the start of the draft and slipped in through the store and watched the entire day's proceedings. The draft is where teams pick new players according to some complicated rules and procedures. It was very much like a religious ceremony. There were the sweaters of retired players cum saints hanging from the rafters. The building was like a cathedral. The cardinal like owners, managers and coaches were ordaining priests to come to their churches of sport to play.
-- as for yoga, I dunno. I went for 2 years with my wife. It helped my flexibility, but I had a lot of trouble "dedicating my practice" (the actual period of stretching and physical jerks) to people in need, and the "om" business, scented candles, spandex and little statues of Buddha seemed kitsch. But I guess some parts of church are similar.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The college I used to attend had a post-graduate Outdoor Pursuits course which we used to say was their religion, because their total dedication and zeal to push themselves to the limit appeared that way.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
How about (C)Ultimate Frisbee, now that you mention colleges. It is a religion of sorts according to my children.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
I think that although we can point to many examples where organised sport becomes a cult, and can be loosely thought of as 'a religion' in a colloquial sense (as in 'something that I am extremely keen on), they are not getting to the point that the OP is raising.
If I have understood correctly, he is asking what happens to people's need to reach out to the sacred in a secularised society. If we think of Augustine's dictum that 'our hearts are restless' until they find God, how might that restlessness be expressed in a society which by and large abjures God?
What I think S Bacchus is pointing to -- and I think very perceptively -- is that the way people talk about exercise/fitness/body culture, and the place it holds in their lives, is co-extensive with the ways people used to talk about prayer, and the role piety had in their lives.
There are other areas of modern, secular life where we might see people seeking the kind of thing that they used to find in God -- there's been some recent research by Gordon Lynch (and probably others) on club culture as a search for secular ekstasis.
And I suspect S Bacchus is right that it is easier in many circles to be openly gay than to be openly Christian -- that is definitely the case where I work. (I do know, of course, that my experiences are far from universal. But they are not that uncommon either.)
So there might be two issues here. One is, anthropologially speaking, if human beings have a need for the sacred, where can it be found in a secular society -- and how can Christians (and other people of faith) make sense of and connect to that need for the sacred? The other is about whether it might soon make sense to use the metaphor of the closet for the way people of faith feel their ability to publicly own their faith is circumscribed. (Just to make clear, I am not claiming tha Christians are persecuted, or experience legal discrimination or oppression in the UK. I am talking quite subtle changes of social attitudes.)
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I'm with Niminypiminy here - there are 2 issues.
Going to sporting events could be mapped onto church attendance - or, as someone mentioned, supporting a team but not going to the game could be like identifying with a particular church but not attending services.
But exercise (and diet) are more along the line of personal devotion, which I think is what the OP means by "piety." And I tend to agree with the OP.
We shouldn't forget, either, that martial arts and yoga blur the lines between piety and exercise. There's a deeply religious element to them in their cultures of origin. The religions they stem from are very different from western religions, though - i.e., not monotheist, and in some cases, not theist at all.
Here in the San Francisco area, I see a lot of Chinese Americans gathering to do various exercises, or sometimes out doing exercises alone, and health seems to have the quality of a religious ideal in their culture (exercise together with diet, herbs, acupuncture, etc.). But that's my observation as an outsider; I could be imposing categories onto what I see that just aren't there. But it might also be something that stems more naturally from non-western cultures. Here in the west, we've always had to fight the dualism between matter & spirit, which probably made integrating physical health into our spirituality much more difficult or even problematic.
So maybe when westerners tire of organized western religion, it's easier to turn to practices that affirm the body and feed the mind-body connection. Exercise is, after all, good for the mind as well as the body. It probably helps people feel more whole, more centered, more focused - things prayer and meditation used to do, but with less emphasis on the body.
I feel like I'm rambling now... But I don't really exercise, so maybe that's why I'm not as focused as I'd like to be.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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