|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Will faith persist?
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18&version=NET
This next week we have the story of the persistent widow and the unrighteous judge. Luke certainly uses a lot of stories about widows.
Of course, it seems like Jesus is using a parable to say if an unjust judge will eventually break down and honor the widow's request, how much more will God who loves us will honor our prayers.
However, the last sentence seems to suggest that the point of the parable is will faith persist until the time the Messiah returns.
What do you think?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
I don't see these as an either or. Prayer expresses and builds up faith. In the face of suffering and disaster (see the verses leading up to this passage), will people maintain their faith in God's sovereignty and turn to him in prayer, or lose heart and give up?
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
One theme I see throughout look is how faith keeps popping up in unexpected places. Could this comment fit in with Luke's theme?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
Just a thought, how would Jesus' audience look upon a persistent woman who keeps on going to the judge? Would it be something they would frown about, because it is something Women Don't Do™? Is Jesus turning another social taboo around here?
quote:
Gramps49: Another thought I found, that the parable is not a prayer for selfish purposes, but to pray persistently for justice:
Or might I say, pray and work persistently for justice? *ducks*
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
If I'm allowed to expand on my last post, I have the idea that 'faith' is presented as something very active in this parable.
What the widow isn't doing is that she is asking the judge for a favour, and than she has faith that everything will go alright. No, she demands again and again that the judge should do what he ought to do. Up to the point that the judge feels that she almost ὑπωπιάζῃ him. I understand that one of the translations of this word is to physically beat someone.
This reminds me a bit of many present-day NGOs who work in human rights abuses. Usually, someone suffers a kind of abuse and can't find justice because the juridical system won't hear them. What the NGOs do, they don't provide justice for these people instead of the legal system, but they beat on the doors of the legal system again and again until they are finally heard. I've done this myself at times, and something in this parable clearly ressonates with that.
It seems that when Jesus is sighing over a lack of faith in this text, He's looking for a very active faith.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
Gramps49: Good points La Roc
Thank you. (Although the feminine article doesn't really apply to me ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
I've been thinking and reading a bit more about this text, so if you don't mind I'll try to write some random, rambling thoughts here.
For one thing, I've seen many commentaries that say that this Parable is about being persistent in prayer. But the funny thing is: if you look at the text literally, Jesus seems to be saying that you don't need to be persistent in prayer.
I mean, the judge only heeds the widow's appeal because she is persistent and she asks again and again and again. But God is not like that. Asking once seems to be enough with Him.
Related to this, I have the feeling that verse 1 ("Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up." in the NIV) is often interpreted as "they should always pray and not give up praying". But that last part not in the text. "Don't give up" doesn't necessarily refer back to praying, it could equally well refer to other things. Like fighting for justice, as in the widow's example.
Another thing that intrigues me, is the last part of verse 7, in Greek: καὶ μακροθυμεῖ ἐπ' αὐτοῖς. NET translates this as "Will he delay long to help them?", NIV has "Will he keep putting them off?", and KJV "though he bear long with them?"
Both NET and NIV seem rather far out to me here, KJV comes much closer to the Greek. I'm guessing that 'though' could be an acceptable translation of καὶ sometimes, but let's stick for a moment with the more natural translation of this word here: 'and' or 'even'.
In that case, verse 7 could be saying that God will do two things when we'll cry out because of injustice: He'll provide justice, and He'll bear with us. I could really dig this interpretation.
So, let me give you my attempt of interpretating this Parable. It's admittedly unorthodox, and I'll probably be guilty of putting some eisegesis in her, but I don't think there are many things in that are actually contradicted by the text.
Here goes. Jesus is asking us to do two things here: always pray, and never give up fighting for justice. The widow is an example of the last part. Jesus promises that unlike this unrighteous judge, God will always hear us right away when we pray. He will see that justice is done (perhaps even if we won't see this right away), but He also wants us to hang in there, and not give up fighting for it. He'll be with us, enduring it together with us. And in the final verse, Jesus shows His experation (ἆρα) that He doesn't see much of this kind of faith around.
I have to say that I rather like it.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
My mistake, LeRoc.
I was also thinking along the same lines as you, that the parable is not necessarily about prayer, but about seeking justice. God always wants justice and justice will ultimately prevail.
Our church body's theme this year is God's Work, Our Hands. God works justice through our hands, in other words. Here prayer helps us to get in tune with the justice God wants. While different people may have different ideas about what justice is, prayer--and with that, meditation on God's Word--brings us more in line with what God wants, in my opinion.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
|
Posted
The first verse of the parable makes it clear that it is an exhortation to prayer.
But this could easily be an editorial comment by Luke himself.
If so it could be an exhortation to seek justice persistently.
My take on it? It is a parable about prayer but what is known as a CONTRAST parable. i.e. God stands in contrast to the unjust judge and doesn't have to be nagged into granting what is right. In this case justice.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
This is what I am still trying to get my head around, shamwari. Luke begins by saying this is about prayer, he then goes into a story about justice, and then has Jesus asking "Will faith persist" until the end of time.
Seems like three different themes. Where do you see the connection?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
shamwari: The first verse of the parable makes it clear that it is an exhortation to prayer.
Like I said before, that's not exactly clear. It is an exhortation to pray and not to give up.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
|
Posted
I strongly agree with Shamwari that a critical element in the parable is the contrast between the speed of God's reply with the tardiness of the unjust judge. A mistake commonly made is to assume that persistence in prayer is persistence on a specific request: that God needs to be constantly badgered on the same matter like the unjust judge. My understanding is that persistence in prayer rather means that one should continually seek God's guidance and assistance across a whole range of matters: pray without ceasing. The concluding remark, however, questions whether or not we have the faith to do so.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
