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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Storm in a Russian Teacup?

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Storm in a Russian Teacup?
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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What do our Orthodox shipmates make of this ?

Is it a storm in a teacup or does it betoken something more serious?

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boadicea Trott
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# 9621

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The WR does not appear to have been completely dismantled as such, though its activities seem likely to be severely curtailed and under exceptionally close scrutiny from ROCOR.

I would not like to speculate too much as to its survival prospects but looks like WR Orthodoxy may, for the time being, remain primarily with the Antiochians in the US and those few in the UK who are under the spiritual leadership of Metropolitan Daniel of Moscow (one of the Catacomb churches under Stalinist rule, now the ER Metropolitanate of Moscow who are very supportive of WR in the UK).

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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett

Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Isaac David

Accidental Awkwardox
# 4671

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Scandals and intrigues in the church are, alas, nothing new. Don't get involved, don't comment is my attitude.

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Isaac the Idiot

Forget philosophy. Read Borges.

Posts: 1280 | From: Middle Exile | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
SeraphimSarov
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# 4335

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Well, the Antiochian Church still welcomes the Western Rite
ROCOR (and I admire the way they have passed down Russian Christian spirituality of the Golden Age) is still very much geared exclusively to the Eastern Liturgy in a particularly Russian form (my autocorrect wrote "fussy" which may be right [Biased]

[ 14. July 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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It looks to me like ROCOR was looking for an excuse to shut down the WR and finally got one.

[ 14. July 2013, 14:53: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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So where are the links to the blogs where this is being discussed by folk who think they actually know something?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boadicea Trott
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# 9621

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Fr Aidan Keller a long time proponent and advocate of the WR, himself of ROCOR writes here.

Josephus Flavius writes on the Byzantine Texas blog.

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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett

Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Silent Acolyte

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# 1158

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Besides the usual vituperativeness of Orthodox—nay of all Christian—intramural internet chatter, all we learn from those is that we didn't particularly like Jerome and besides he ordained more than one-at-a-time.

Not much, but a start.

How did the Monk Nathan misbehave?

Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boadicea Trott
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# 9621

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Fr Nathan Monk (a married priest, not a monk, btw) has chosen to renounce his orders and his Orthodox faith.
He intends to devote his time to expressing wholehearted support for his friends in the LGBT and polygamous communities, according to this article.

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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett

Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Knopwood
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# 11596

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Oh now I recognise him! What a shame: I would think it's not easy for gay Orthodox Christians. I would imagine they need all the positive voices they can get. But admittedly he does seem to have a history of jurisdictional hopping.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

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This announcement followed closely on Fr Monk's renunciation of his ministry. It's difficult not to see them as linked, especially since there are elements within ROCOR that never wanted the Western Rite to exist and have been suspicious of it from the start. Fr Monk's resignation, and the reasons for it, feed perfectly into the Easternite contention that Western theology and liturgy lead ineluctably to heresy and schism.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mark Betts

Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074

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I don't think this is a matter of heresy at all, since the WR has been modified to agree with Orthodox doctrine, but in a western style. I don't think the ROC use WR at all, and in the UK it is very rare within ROCOR (2 churches?)

The problem is that it changes the structure of the liturgy so much, even if it probably isn't heretical, that indigenous Russians wouldn't even recognize it.

I have no idea how the third stream of Russian Orthodox (Greek Exarchate) would view this - they are currently having to deal with moving over to the new Greek revised Julian calendar.

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I don't think this is a matter of heresy at all, since the WR has been modified to agree with Orthodox doctrine, but in a western style.

I've never really quite understood this. I presume by "Western Rite" they mean the old Roman Rite, the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great? Why then does the Canon, for instance, need amendment by introducing Byzantine elements into it? Surely it is by virtue of its antiquity already Orthodox?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Patrick
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# 305

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Yes, the Gregorian Canon was thought to be, without addition or change, acceptable as an Orthodox anaphora by the eminent Orthodox theologian Nicholas Cabasilas, in his Commentary on the Divine Liturgy. See his remarks in that work on the "ascending epiclesis" in the Roman Canon. After all, no Orthodox theologian before the schism had noted defects in the Western Eucharistic Prayer.
Posts: 109 | From: Fordham University, Bronx, N.Y. U.S.A. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The problem is that it changes the structure of the liturgy so much, even if it probably isn't heretical, that indigenous Russians wouldn't even recognize it.

But why should they? It's not Chrysostom (or Basil), but that doesn't mean it's wrong. And it doesn't "Change" the structure -- that implies that it is built on Chrysostom and has made modifications. This is not the case. It is its own tradition, going back centuries upon centuries.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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The local usage here, Usus Providentiæ, has an Gothic epiklesis interpolated into the Gregorian Canon.
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PaulTH*
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# 320

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I take it that this beautiful translation of the Sarum Rite will no longer be permitted by ROCOR. That would be a pity. A couple of years ago, I petitioned the powers that be in the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, to adopt something very similar. It is so wrong to let those old, theologically sound and very dignified rites to fade away.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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I'd love to see first hand a Sarum Use liturgy.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Knopwood
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# 11596

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Next best thing?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ad Orientem
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# 17574

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Cheers.
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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Fr Nathan Monk (a married priest, not a monk, btw) has chosen to renounce his orders and his Orthodox faith.
He intends to devote his time to expressing wholehearted support for his friends in the LGBT and polygamous communities, according to this article.

Are we alone in feeling very sorry for Fr Nathan? He seems to be a person who will never find a place of peace, but will be constantly failing in his search.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Boadicea Trott
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# 9621

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May God grant Fr Nathan Monk all things needful for his wellbeing and his salvation.

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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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There seems to have been much speculation and misdirection here.

Many of the concerns about the Western Rite were fed by particular examples of the manner in which the former Western Rite Vicariate was managed, which was itself in response to some of the hostility that was received. The whole thing kind of spiralled but no side was without fault here, and the attempts at demonising the bishops that appeared in some places over the summer were quite unfair.

Personally, I think that particular secretive ways of operating were not the best and I can see how they fed some of the opposition, while at the same time, I can see how the perceived need for such clandestine operations would not have been there in the first place had there been more open acceptance to begin with. I think that the multiple ordinations thing was ill advised and was really the straw that broke the camel's back*. Perhaps something needed to be done before it all got out of control and this was the thing that brought this to light.

*(I struggle with the idea that Bishop Jerome didn't realise that doing this would be painting a big red target on the Vicariate - I like and respect him but think that this was not his shining hour).

It may not have been completely obvious in July but it seemed likely that the bishops were not being outright hostile to the Western Rite but were seeking to find a way to deal with problems. If they wanted to shut it down, they could have simply done so, although the concerns of those directly affected, many of whom were new to ROCOR and perhaps did not know how things are dealt with or the people involved, were quite understandable.

The most telling sign was the identities of the people appointed to the commission in the decree linked from the OP. These are people who have no Eastern axe to grind, and have variously been long-term supporters of the Western Rite, entered into Orthodoxy through the Western Rite, and been serving the Western Rite for decades before there was any hint of the wider acceptance in ROCOR that we have seen in recent years. It was pointed out at the time that, had the bishops wanted to appoint a group to dismantle the ROCOR Western Rite, there would be far better candidates.

The result?

Some of people's concerns about the western Rite have been allayed by a number of actions. The list of authorised Liturgies has been curtailed, particularly removing those that were adaptations of Anglican services (there are those in favour of the Western Rite who also welcome this development). There is an openness about WR activities, the absence of which previously fanned the flames. The ROCOR Western Rite now answers directly to Metropolitan (canonically, this has been the arrangement since 2010 but the establishment of the Western Rite Vicariate under a vicar bishop appointed by the Metropolitan meant that it has operated as a de facto extra-territorial diocese).

At the same time, those within the WR, and those of us outside of it have been pleased to see that ordinations have resumed and, from what I gather, regularisations have taken place of those who were ordained in the multiple ordination. Nobody is forcing a transition to the Byzantine Rite. The Eastern Rite clergy and parishes that were supportive remain so, while those who were jubilating over the end of the Western Rite seem to have fallen silent.

All in all, I think that things will work out for the best.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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