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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Wisdom of Solomon
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The enjoyment of life is what Solomon advocates in Ecclesiastes. He says that our portion has been allocated, and that everything has been mapped out by God: everything we do from our side is vanity and chasing after the breeze, but we will be judged for every thought and deed.
Solomon wasn't wise, in the end, was he? He wasn't faithful to God, and so Israel was divided.
This raises so many questions. Was it pre-ordained that he should stray from God's path, according to his own wisdom? If people are supposed to enjoy their food, drink and toil, what about those who have none?
Is Solomon's 'wisdom' realistic, timeless insight into the way human beings behave, and observation of God's apparent lack of discrimination between the righteous and the wicked during our lifetime?
Is his wisdom sound?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Part of your question rests in the assumption that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The introduction to this book in the Oxford Annotated NRSV reads quote:
The editor of the book, perhaps one of the author's students, is responsible for the superscription that identifies him as "son of David" and hence the work was attributed to Solomon. But the late language (close to the style of the Mishnah) and the tenor of the work make this attribution virtually impossible; a date around 300 BC is likely.
Aside from the question of authorship, ISTM the last part of your question -- Is the wisdom contained in this book sound? -- is still a good one.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Given the point Mamacita makes (which I totally agree with), I can see two questions worth engaging.
1) The one she mentions. Is Ecclesiastes actually good advice?
2) It was put in Solomon's name because he had become famous for being wise. The wisdom of Solomon is as proverbial as the patience of Job, but is it as inaccurate? Given the kingdom fell apart under Solomon, how come he becomes famous for being wise?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
And when we read Ecclesiastics in Church, it does seem different from others. I read it last Sunday!
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Given the point Mamacita makes (which I totally agree with), I can see two questions worth engaging.
1) The one she mentions. Is Ecclesiastes actually good advice?
2) It was put in Solomon's name because he had become famous for being wise. The wisdom of Solomon is as proverbial as the patience of Job, but is it as inaccurate? Given the kingdom fell apart under Solomon, how come he becomes famous for being wise?
1. I love Ecclesiastes but I don't think of it as good advice more good questions. It's the soul-searching of someone trying to find meaning in the world without God and in the end comes to the conclusion that "remember your Creator" is what counts.
2. Isn't this just a case of someone being remembered for something significant in their life rather than the total of it. Solomon's father David is remembered as a giant slayer and "a man after God's own heart" even though he made appalling mistakes and was a tyrant with blood on his hands. Solomon wisely asked God for wisdom and did rule wisely in some regards or maybe initially - the fact that it all went pear-shaped later on doesn't mean that the nickname didn't stick.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And when we read Ecclesiastics in Church, it does seem different from others. I read it last Sunday!
Really? I don't think I've ever heard it read in church!
I had to lead a small fellowship group recently and chose to read a section from the first chapter of Ecclesiastes. I must say, Ecclesiasties appeals to me a lot because it takes into account our doubt and world-weariness, yet affirms that we should praise God in spite of all that. To me, that's wise. But I can imagine that some personality types wouldn't get on with it very well.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And when we read Ecclesiastics in Church, it does seem different from others. I read it last Sunday!
Really? I don't think I've ever heard it read in church!
In the Roman Sunday Mass lectionary, blink and you miss it. Once every three years, we have one reading from it (Ordinary Time, Year C, Week 18).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
For every thing, there is a season....
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Tradition has it that Ecclesiastes and many of the Proverbs were written by Solomon, along with the Songs of Solomon, and yet scholars date them post-exile. It's possible that previously they were passed down through oral tradition, and only after the exile were they gathered together and compiled into scrolls.
It's interesting to read it as if Solomon wrote it, with his celebrity status and fame for wisdom, and again as if he didn't.
On this site a Rabbi says that it is read on the Jewish festival of Sukkot, the festival of joy, and suggests that it's the earliest encounter between faith and reason.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
In the end Ecclesiastes says a good life is having good company and good wine.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In the end Ecclesiastes says a good life is having good company and good wine.
It ends with the warning that God will bring every deed into judgement, saying that it's everyone's duty to fear God and to keep his commandments. This is a little confusing as he has been telling people, as you said, to follow their desires, eat drink and enjoy their work.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And when we read Ecclesiastics in Church, it does seem different from others. I read it last Sunday!
Really? I don't think I've ever heard it read in church!
In the Roman Sunday Mass lectionary, blink and you miss it. Once every three years, we have one reading from it (Ordinary Time, Year C, Week 18).
In the RCL, it shows up seven times as an alternate OT reading (or in one case, an alternate for the Psalm). Ecclesiastes 3:1-9 ("For everything there is a season...") is indicated as the first OT reading listed for All Saints B, but Isaiah 25: 1-10 ("On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast...") is offered as an alternate*. So it's possible that one could attend church regularly and still never hear Ecclesiastes.
[*In which case I'd choose Isaiah's heavenly banquet!]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It ends with the warning that God will bring every deed into judgement, saying that it's everyone's duty to fear God and to keep his commandments. This is a little confusing as he has been telling people, as you said, to follow their desires, eat drink and enjoy their work.
I've always understood Ecclesiastes' conclusion as being, that you shouldn't get too hung up about the meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything. Respect God, keep his commandments and enjoy the blessings of life while you can. Forget the agonised soul-searching, navel gazing and endless dissection of yours and everyone else's motives. Get out there and get on with life while the sun shines!
Not too different from Micah 6:8 don't you think?
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
For every thing, there is a season....
Just for you. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Tradition has it that Ecclesiastes and many of the Proverbs were written by Solomon, along with the Songs of Solomon, and yet scholars date them post-exile. It's possible that previously they were passed down through oral tradition, and only after the exile were they gathered together and compiled into scrolls.
I can't resist gratuitously quoting R.B.Y. Scott's famous turn of phrase about the authorship of Ecclesiastes: "there is of course no possibility that the Solomon of history composed this book; to claim this is like claiming that a book about Marxism in modern English idiom and spelling was written by Henry VIII".
But there's a serious point to be made about genre here. Yes, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are both wisdom literature, but they are very different kinds of wisdom literature. Oral tradition makes sense in fashioning Proverbs, as it consists of several collections of relatively discreet short sayings, with numerous doublets between collections. Ecclesiastes is very different: it's more like a lengthy reflection with a continuous strain of thought running through it; talking about drawing on oral tradition here is likely to be over-egging it somewhat. To draw a New Testament parallel, it is often argued that the author of the Epistle of James (which is the nearest thing to Ecclesiastes' genre in the NT) knew Matthew/Q; but that doesn't mean that James's modus operandi was to gather Matthew/Q's material and compile it into a codex.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
2. Isn't this just a case of someone being remembered for something significant in their life rather than the total of it. Solomon's father David is remembered as a giant slayer and "a man after God's own heart" even though he made appalling mistakes and was a tyrant with blood on his hands. Solomon wisely asked God for wisdom and did rule wisely in some regards or maybe initially - the fact that it all went pear-shaped later on doesn't mean that the nickname didn't stick.
So why is it that so many of the Kings of the eponymous books got such a bad press? Yes, some of them committed idolatry, but so did Solomon. Yes, some of them were usurpers who had innocent people killed, but so was David. Was there really nothing good to remember about them? Or is it not about David or Solomon per se, and more about hindsight over having fewer problems with the neighbors when Israel was a united kingdom?
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
So why is it that so many of the Kings of the eponymous books got such a bad press? Yes, some of them committed idolatry, but so did Solomon. Yes, some of them were usurpers who had innocent people killed, but so was David. Was there really nothing good to remember about them? Or is it not about David or Solomon per se, and more about hindsight over having fewer problems with the neighbors when Israel was a united kingdom?
I thought the writer of Kings basically labelled the Kings as good or bad on one criterion only - did they encourage worship of Yahweh and attempt to eradicate idolatry or not? (I'm sure worthier Shipmates will now post a load of counter-examples) but essentially I think it is along my original point that people were characterised or remembered for a single aspect of their lives rather than the whole tapestry.
[ 03. November 2013, 08:16: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In the end Ecclesiastes says a good life is having good company and good wine.
It ends with the warning that God will bring every deed into judgement, saying that it's everyone's duty to fear God and to keep his commandments. This is a little confusing as he has been telling people, as you said, to follow their desires, eat drink and enjoy their work.
Don't a lot of people believe the "pious conclusion" is tacked on later by a different writer?
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Books and things.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
I can't resist gratuitously quoting R.B.Y. Scott's famous turn of phrase about the authorship of Ecclesiastes: "there is of course no possibility that the Solomon of history composed this book; to claim this is like claiming that a book about Marxism in modern English idiom and spelling was written by Henry VIII".
But there's a serious point to be made about genre here. Yes, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are both wisdom literature, but they are very different kinds of wisdom literature. Oral tradition makes sense in fashioning Proverbs, as it consists of several collections of relatively discreet short sayings, with numerous doublets between collections. Ecclesiastes is very different: it's more like a lengthy reflection with a continuous strain of thought running through it; talking about drawing on oral tradition here is likely to be over-egging it somewhat. To draw a New Testament parallel, it is often argued that the author of the Epistle of James (which is the nearest thing to Ecclesiastes' genre in the NT) knew Matthew/Q; but that doesn't mean that James's modus operandi was to gather Matthew/Q's material and compile it into a codex.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Don't a lot of people believe the "pious conclusion" is tacked on later by a different writer?
If the conclusion was tacked on, a few verses were tacked into the body as well, eg 8:13 It will not be well with the wicked, neither will they prolong their days like a shadow, because they do not stand in fear before God (which seems to contradict 7:15).
In fact, there are so many apparent contradictions, and so many proverbs interwoven with the rest, that it seems to me more like a compilation of passages passed down than 'a lengthy reflection with a continuous strain of thought running through it'. But I'm no expert, and not much of a scholar, simply seeing what's in front of me and recognising how much my own views are colouring what I see.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In the end Ecclesiastes says a good life is having good company and good wine.
It ends with the warning that God will bring every deed into judgement, saying that it's everyone's duty to fear God and to keep his commandments. This is a little confusing as he has been telling people, as you said, to follow their desires, eat drink and enjoy their work.
Chapter 3 concludes with quote:
Moreover I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, wickedness was there, and in the place of righteousness, wickedness was there as well. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work. I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?
I am not sure that humans having no advantage over animals is a gospel.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Chapter 3 concludes with quote:
Moreover I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, wickedness was there, and in the place of righteousness, wickedness was there as well. I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work. I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?
I am not sure that humans having no advantage over animals is a gospel.
The observation that the human animal dies, as other animals do, is the truth. In that sense, we have no advantage over the animals.
The point being made here is surely that we don't know what happens after death, either to us or to animals, and things are not how they should be here and now: but in God's good time we will all be judged.
A few questions arise from this passage. Some would perhaps be tangential to this board, eg the fate of animals after death, the 'testing', and the 'joy of work' idea, but I would be interested in views on the line wondering about the 'spirit' going upward or downward. Old Testament references to the afterlife usually refer only to Sheol, don't they?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Old Testament references to the afterlife usually refer only to Sheol, don't they?
That's what I thought - hence the debate between the Sadducees and Pharisees in Jesus' day. IIRC the Sadducees didn't believe in any form of afterlife because as you say most of the OT references are just Sheol (the grave, dust returning to dust) - whereas the Pharisees held to a future resurrection. Again if I've understood it correctly with no (Greek) separation of body & spirit but body and soul/spirit reunited in a future resurrection.
Appreciate this might be a massive tangent of this thread though...
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Appreciate this might be a massive tangent of this thread though...
For the hosts to decide, of course, but istm that the whole book is under scrutiny, if we're to wonder about it's wisdom, and this point might feed into the questions of authorship and origin.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If the conclusion was tacked on, a few verses were tacked into the body as well, eg 8:13 It will not be well with the wicked, neither will they prolong their days like a shadow, because they do not stand in fear before God (which seems to contradict 7:15).
It's not surprising at all that a few verses get mucked about with and something stuck on the end in a unitary book. Indeed, that's exactly what Mark and John seem to be.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
It's not surprising at all that a few verses get mucked about with and something stuck on the end in a unitary book. Indeed, that's exactly what Mark and John seem to be.
Yes, I accept that it sometimes happened, but istm that there are too many verses which refer to God's control / judgement or fear of God in this book to back up the idea of an out-of-context appendage.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
Funny. Upon reading the thread title I thought this one would be about that deuterocanonical book, Wisdom of Solomon, abridged out of holy scripture by some.
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