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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Devil and All His Works
Martin60
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OK my friends, what of him? As some will know I've become a neo-liberal late in life, kicking and screaming. In some ways, key ways, utterly non-negotiably, no way back: on the (irascible, confrontational, subversive, counter-cultural) inclusion and pacifism of Jesus.

On the violence of God I've been swayed to the point of full liberal rationalization. And thus on the reality of demons. Of fallen angels and their lord Lucifer. Of immensely ancient, supernatural, fallen, evil persons. As extra-incarnate God's violent ways are us projected, so are they.

It's counter-culturally (of Jesus' culture), postmodernly easy after all.

But I can't go the whole liberal hog. I can't possibly rationalize away the hypostatic union and His works. There will be liberals here who do. That's not their fault [Smile] And so I'm left with Jesus, His example of pacifism, of loving His enemies to death - His, who, HUMANLY admittedly, had no choice but to believe in God the Killer and Satan.

But as Dr. Alison Morgan in The Wild Gospel points out (a damnationist, if you scratch her, Evangelical of increased rhetorical prowess from her early What Happens When We Die?), we know about the supernatural realm divided, kingdoms, courts, territories, wars a hundred times squared, cubed (i.e. multi-dimensionally), more through Jesus. Just as He reveals Hell metaphorically at the very least, He incontrovertibly reveals Satan. Revealed him only as a man and therefore suspectly?

Nah. He reveals him now by the immense credibility of the accounts of Him revealing him then. After His 40 day fast (easy to rationalize that one). In Gadara. In routine mass deliverances. In Mary Magdalene. In the seared boy and the searing confession of his dad. In Judas.

So am I backsliding from the true liberal gospel I never attained?

Or should we be doing honest battle here? As my heroes Brian and Rob refuse to do?

With Evil.

Or am I just looking for an excuse for mine and everyone else's? An excuse Jesus actually gives us.

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Love wins

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Jolly Jape
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Truth is, Martin, we have the biblical testimony Big any were needed) of the objective existance (should that be un-existance) of objective evil (that is, something beyond than the absence of good) but the bible does not give us an account its nature or origin. A few tantalising glimpses, but nothing even approaching a systematic demonology. It's not even clear that satan is the leader of legions of demons, who are forever waiting to do its bidding. They might be quite distinct entities, maybe with a parasitic or symbiotic relationship. I think the picture of Satan as ne utterly alone in the universe, consumed by its own malice and bitterness, is quite appropriate.

I quite like Walter Wink on this - demons are the creation of the human psyche

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Jolly Jape
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Truth is, Martin, we have the biblical testimony Big any were needed) of the objective existance (should that be un-existance) of objective evil (that is, something beyond than the absence of good) but the bible does not give us an account its nature or origin. A few tantalising glimpses, but nothing even approaching a systematic demonology. It's not even clear that satan is the leader of legions of demons, who are forever waiting to do its bidding. They might be quite distinct entities, maybe with a parasitic or symbiotic relationship. I think the picture of Satan as ne utterly alone in the universe, consumed by its own malice and bitterness, is quite appropriate.

I quite like Walter Wink on this - demons are the creation of the collective human psyche, a sort of fallen creativity. You pays your money, and all that.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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The Silent Acolyte

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Marvin: There is no hypostasis of evil. None. That road leads to an unChristian dualism.

So, the devil and the demons are created beings. As such, they are naturally created good, but through their free will they have irrevocably chosen to remain in rebellion against God.

Their chief, and perhaps, only power is in the telling of lies.

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LeRoc

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quote:
The Silent Acolyte:Their chief, and perhaps, only power is in the telling of lies.
What I find interesting is that the few times the devil has lines in the Bible, he seems to speak the truth.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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MSHB
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
The Silent Acolyte:Their chief, and perhaps, only power is in the telling of lies.
What I find interesting is that the few times the devil has lines in the Bible, he seems to speak the truth.
Were all the lies censored then?

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Welease Woderwick

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When I first saw the thread title I immediately assumed it was about H&As - but it's not so carry on.

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Eutychus
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I think a lot of what people blame on the devil and demons can often be attributed to their own fault.

However, I still believe in evil personified for two reasons.

One is that as you say, Jesus seems to believe in this. I find the argument that he is merely a man of his times in his demonology unconvincing; it forms too much a part of his teaching.

The second is that occasionally, one comes across something so diabolical it's hard not to see it as the product of a (malevolent) intelligence rather than a series of random events - and an intelligence that seems more than human. This is not something I've experienced often, but on occasion it has been a definite impression.

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Jammy Dodger

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So, traditionally we've got three sources of evil: the world, the flesh and the devil. So if the world is human power structures and systems that oppose God, the flesh is our own sins, failures and human capacity to degenerate into evil that leaves...the devil.

I have no idea what I think about the devil.

Warned by CS Lewis that his two chief tactics are either to foster an unhealthy interest in his works, or convince people that he doesn't exist I'm not ready to write him off as just a anthropomorphism of evil that originates in the world or the flesh.

Scripture does seem to indicate that there are malevolent personalities out there and one in particular - the accuser.

But then some of the references in Scripture are really ambiguous (e.g. Jesus turning to Peter and saying get behind me Satan - does anyone seriously think Peter was possessed of the devil at this point? So this appears to be a metaphorical use of Satan). Compare this to Satan entering Judas (Which we haven't got to yet on the kerygmania thread - looking forward to that discussion).

So, basically I've got nothing, I should be ashamed of myself for even posting this. [Hot and Hormonal] Anyway - will be watching this thread with interest!

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Pyx_e

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As much as I am unable to describe the supernatural, abiding, eternal love of God, so I am unable to describe the true form, works and purpose of the father of lies. It is too easy to point at war, famine, violence and abuse and say “Hah, told you so!” he seems to take as much pleasure in a great life spoiled (lack of saints) or a movement distracted by silliness (the church). he is here, he has lost, Christ has won but we being so afraid of the Light will prefer sometimes the shadows so he has ever fertile ground for fear and distraction. I worry less about the wicked done than I do about the good not done.

Fly safe, Pyx_e

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
The Silent Acolyte:Their chief, and perhaps, only power is in the telling of lies.
What I find interesting is that the few times the devil has lines in the Bible, he seems to speak the truth.
The best way to get away with a lie is to stick as closely to the truth as possible. Expect subtlety.

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rolyn
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When lies are believed to be the truth then my goodness the devil's a happy chappy . [Devil]

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tessaB
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I do not know what to believe about the devil.
On the one hand we do have Jesus effectively telling us that the person of the devil exists (and I am not about to contradict the second person of the Trinity.)
On the other hand, believing in a personal devil, fallen angel or whatever, says some quite uncomfortable things about God to me.
If we accept God as all knowing, outside of time, and able to see the whole of creation from beginning to end then He must have known what the devil would become when He created him. The entire history of our relationship with God, up to and including Jesus' death is based on us being fallen beings, tempted to disobey and falling into temptation, and it is all God's fault!
Ok, maybe we would have fallen anyway and the devil is a way to shift the blame a little, but I still don't understand why, given our frail human nature, God would deliberately create an accuser, a tempter, a malignancy to make our lives more difficult.

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tessaB
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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
I do not know what to believe about the devil.
On the one hand we do have Jesus effectively telling us that the person of the devil exists (and I am not about to contradict the second person of the Trinity.)
On the other hand, believing in a personal devil, fallen angel or whatever, says some quite uncomfortable things about God to me.
If we accept God as all knowing, outside of time, and able to see the whole of creation from beginning to end then He must have known what the devil would become when He created him. The entire history of our relationship with God, up to and including Jesus' death is based on us being fallen beings, tempted to disobey and falling into temptation, and it is all God's fault!
Ok, maybe we would have fallen anyway and the devil is a way to shift the blame a little, but I still don't understand why, given our frail human nature, God would deliberately create an accuser, a tempter, a malignancy to make our lives more difficult.

We might also say that God shouldn't have given us free will in the first place, so that we couldn't go astray.

I have come to see the 'tester' Satan as a potential aid to spiritual growth. If we're challenged, we review, and when we review we may grow stronger in faith and in purity. We may fall away. But if we fall away, we remain in a place from which we may review. Where there's life, there's hope.

Malignancy is something else, something I still ponder over. Like others, I have sensed the presence of evil. I know people who claim that demons audibly left them when they invited Jesus into their lives and left behind lives of addiction or crime. Whether these were created 'beings' that became corrupted, 'spirits' of evil people who have lived and died, gathered 'atmospheres' of evil created by the acts of wicked people, figments of the imagination, or any combination of these who knows?

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The Silent Acolyte

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quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
So, basically I've got nothing

Nonsense. That was an excellent post. The best way to approach a difficult problem is to begin to lay out some of the tough questions. Your post does this.
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Martin60
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Well said The Silent Acolyte. I'm sorry that you were the first to encourage Jammy Dodger.

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Love wins

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Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
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Thanks! Given I'm still finding my sea legs, learning the ropes and trying to get my posts ship-shape and Bristol-fashion (and any other nautical jargon) I figured self-deprecating humour was the best option.

I genuinely do only have questions though - no answers on this one.

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Nicolemr
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Sometimes bad stuff just happens... luck or chance, or human nature. But I agree that sometimes some things are so out there that it's hard to feel there wasn't some governing malevolence behind them.

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Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
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Sorry do have another question. Prompted by Raptor Eye's comment about:
quote:
We might also say that God shouldn't have given us free will in the first place, so that we couldn't go astray.
and teesaB's comment:
quote:
why, given our frail human nature, God would deliberately create an accuser, a tempter, a malignancy to make our lives more difficult.
Surely free will must have something to do with this? God giving his creation genuine, real free will is the only thing that makes sense of evil coming out of a good God's good creation.
Which means the devil/Satan is evil because of his free choice not because God made him that way....
But we get the offer of salvation - a way back. But somehow the devil is beyond redemption?
I agree with Nicolemr's point:
quote:
Sometimes bad stuff just happens...
Free will requires an un-constrained, open universe in which that free will can happen which means yes bad stuff just happens sometimes. But that doesn't exclude the possibility of malevolent action by a "devil".

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tessaB
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Oh yes I agree about free will but in a way that just makes it worse.
As humans we are capable, without a devil, of completely screwing things up. We use our free will again and again to turn away from God and towards the flesh and the world.
But....knowing our abilities to bugger up our own, and others' lives, why did God then create some entity (angel or what have you) who He knew would delight in tempting us to worse? I know God created us because He loves us (even the worst of us), and He loves us even as we turn away from Him and try to take others with us. Does he love the Devil that way? Was he created because God already loved him, and does He love him still?
Or.....do we need the devil as a pointer to the fact that we do have free will. Without a devil, would we all be little God-loving automatons? Can we have free will without him?
Confused [Confused]

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tessaB
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HCH
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With regard to lying:

The essence of a lie is the intention to deceive. It is possible to lie by telling part of the truth, or perhaps by making a succession of true statements but in a particular order. Perhaps the slickest way to lie is to tell the exact and complete truth, but unconvincingly.

It is also worth noticing that most of us tell little lies frequently and little harm is done. For instance: "No, I haven't decided on your birthday present yet." Sometimes statements are purely formal and are never evaluated, as in the situation in which you meet someone's tiny baby and (of course) say this is the prettiest baby you have ever seen.

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
rolyn: When lies are believed to be the truth then my goodness the devil's a happy chappy . [Devil]
I'm not the only one. For example, in Gen 3:22, God Himself confirms that the devil was speaking the truth about becoming like God and knowing truth and evil.

I think lies are overrated anyway as a way of leading someone astray from the path. "Bring these drugs to Europe for me; there will be a risk but if you make it you'll earn a lot of money" can be perfectly true, yet still lead people into fucked-upness.

In fact if it is a lie, if someone said "Take this innocent package to Europe for me" and it turns out to be drug, you could wonder if the person who fell for the lie really has sinned.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Boogie

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I think the only evil in the world is caused by us humans. The animal kingdom and natural events can be terrible and terrifying, but not evil.

We are the one and only cause of evil on earth imo. The 'Devil' is simply an excuse/rationalisation/justification which waters down our culpability.

I also think that if really evil people (sociopaths and psychopaths) suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth and no more were born - we would gradually (after the knock-on effects of said sociopaths and psychopaths were over) become a pretty much peaceful, caring society. Everyday wrongdoing, hurt and 'evil' would be much easier to deal with then imo.

Just a thought experiment to think through what 'evil' means.

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Adeodatus
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Has anyone read The Bacchae by Euripides? In that play (written in the 5th century BCE) it seems to be the case that when you get drunk, it's nothing to do with alcohol and chemistry: you're being possessed by the god Bacchus. And in the play, one person's "possession" by Bacchus leads to terrible and tragic events.

To ascribe an "altered state" (drink- or drug-induced, or as a result of illness) to an outside spirit seems a natural thing to do if you don't have the understanding of drink, drugs or illness that we do. It's a very powerful, and often very useful, metaphor. It persists precisely because it so accurately describes the feeling that goes with it - "I wasn't in my right mind," "I don't know what possessed me." I really don't have a problem with using language that refers to the devil in this metaphorical way, as long as it's understood that's what it is.

But. I read the very first story in the Bible featuring the "serpent" as a cautionary tale. Faced with the realisation of their sin, the first human beings have a choice: own up, or look for someone to blame? And they look for someone to blame - "See, there was this talking snake ...". It's what we all do, until we learn that we're responsible for our actions. The only person to blame for my sin is me. No loquacious reptiles required.

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quetzalcoatl
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I must admit, I've never experienced the presence of evil, as some people indicate. I've met some pretty awful people, but I don't see sociopaths and psychopaths or any other kind of paths as actually evil. Or at least, the word starts to dissolve for me into 'something I really don't like'.

Hence, the devil for me remains an interesting idea, but not something real, except as a kind of inner force/voice/presence. After that, it just becomes very confusing as to the nature of these inner forces.

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The Silent Acolyte

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First, it's a good idea to quote the collect from the Book of Common Prayer for the Feast of Michael and All Angels, especially if we look to it for sound teaching.
quote:
O EVERLASTING God, who hast ordained and constituted the services of Angels and men in a wonderful order; Mercifully grant that, as thy holy Angels always do thee service in heaven, so, by thy appointment, they may succour and defend us on earth; through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Angels are no metaphor, pace Adeodatus. It is not necessary to believe in an actual talking snake any more than it is necessary to believe in an actual adam (and his wife) in order to make spiritual sense of the myth of the temptation in the garden.

Angels are created with free will. So some angels have irrevocably chosen to reject God. These fallen angels we call demons.
quote:
tessaB wonders:
[W]hy did God then create some entity (angel or what have you) who He knew would delight in tempting us to worse? I know God created us because He loves us (even the worst of us), and He loves us even as we turn away from Him and try to take others with us. Does he love the Devil that way?

God creates and he eternally loves what he creates.

Free will, to be fully free, means that the creature possessing that free will must be capable making eternally significant choices. Otherwise, it's all just a game.
quote:
Boogie asserts:
I think the only evil in the world is caused by us humans. The animal kingdom and natural events can be terrible and terrifying, but not evil.

We are the one and only cause of evil on earth imo. The 'Devil' is simply an excuse/rationalisation/justification which waters down our culpability.

This is simply not Christian teaching, witness the repeated testimony of the NT.

Natural events which are terrible and terrifying are, in fact, evil. They signify the profound brokenness of the creation.

The creation is not simply all about us, but involves the evil of earthquakes (we remember that the creation groans), fire, flood, and tempest. Surely the evil of death in the plains of Bangladesh has much to do with housing policy, but the evil of the Anchorage earthquake of 1964 probably need more than just yammering about seismically sound housing.
quote:
I also think that if really evil people (sociopaths and psychopaths) suddenly disappeared off the face of the earth and no more were born - we would gradually (after the knock-on effects of said sociopaths and psychopaths were over) become a pretty much peaceful, caring society. Everyday wrongdoing, hurt and 'evil' would be much easier to deal with then imo.
Maybe so, but the protasis is just progressivist nonsense. These sorts of people do keep being born into the world and man's invention of next year's pharmaceutical isn't going to change that.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't see sociopaths and psychopaths or any other kind of paths as actually evil.

They are not. The fruit of their profoundly broken consciences shock and appall, but they are not evil, even though we may use verbal shorthand when we say that they are.
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Jolly Jape
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quote:
originally posted by The Silent Acolyte
Angels are created with free will. So some angels have irrevocably chosen to reject God. These fallen angels we call demons.

I agree with most of your post, but this bit is just holy conjecture. We don't really know anything about the origins of demons, or, for that matter, angels.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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quetzalcoatl
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The Silent Acolyte wrote:

They are not. The fruit of their profoundly broken consciences shock and appall, but they are not evil, even though we may use verbal shorthand when we say that they are.

I agree with the not evil bit, but 'profoundly broken consciences' sounds like a guess to me. It's not a bad guess anyway; but the causes of psychopathy seem pretty complex, and some psychopaths may never have acquired a conscience. It's even been suggested that it has evolutionary advantages, since they can be fearless and highly sexed, and may possibly be very successful in business and elsewhere.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

The creation is not simply all about us, but involves the evil of earthquakes (we remember that the creation groans), fire, flood, and tempest.

The Earth wouldn't even exist without fire, flood and tempest. It was born as a fiery ball which slowly cooled on the surface. The forces involved were incredibly powerful, not evil. It wouldn't be liveable on without earthquakes. Nature is necessary, not evil. Rather like death is necessary - there would be no life without it.

[ 05. November 2013, 11:54: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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And genetic mutations which allow evolution to operate also result in cancer...

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Siegfried
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The focus on the power of the Devil seen in some of the more fundamentalist sects in the US does indeed seem to reek of dualism. If Satan does indeed exist, he is a fallen angel--nowhere near the equal of God. And as man is said to be created a little lower than the angels, well, that doesn't give him that much more power over us. So, yeah. Assuming he exists (and I do believe he does), his power is that of appealing to our baser needs and selfish desires.

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

The creation is not simply all about us, but involves the evil of earthquakes (we remember that the creation groans), fire, flood, and tempest.

The Earth wouldn't even exist without fire, flood and tempest. It was born as a fiery ball which slowly cooled on the surface. The forces involved were incredibly powerful, not evil. It wouldn't be liveable on without earthquakes. Nature is necessary, not evil. Rather like death is necessary - there would be no life without it.
Exactly. And look at it this way: If people did not have this tendency toward selfishness, let alone malevolence, then every scientific endeavor would be toward the good of creation and humanity. We would be eons ahead in the sciences of medicine and even meteorology and geology, capable of greater feats of healing and able to dodge more of nature's bullets.

But we have these tendencies and we aren't prepared for what the natural world serves up. [Frown]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

The creation is not simply all about us, but involves the evil of earthquakes (we remember that the creation groans), fire, flood, and tempest.

The Earth wouldn't even exist without fire, flood and tempest. It was born as a fiery ball which slowly cooled on the surface. The forces involved were incredibly powerful, not evil. It wouldn't be liveable on without earthquakes. Nature is necessary, not evil. Rather like death is necessary - there would be no life without it.
Very interesting post. It reminds me of Darwinian theodicy, which argues rather like you, that pain and death are beneficial to animals in the long run,although not in the short run!

Yes, and plate tectonics are generally held to be beneficial to the earth and to life, as it were rejuvenating it, despite the loss of life from earthquakes. I suppose it provides a kind of recycling, along with volcanoes, also beneficial.

This seems to conflict with some Christian teachings on stuff like earthquakes (as evil), so I'm not sure how these views can be reconciled.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

This seems to conflict with some Christian teachings on stuff like earthquakes (as evil), so I'm not sure how these views can be reconciled.

I don't think they need to be reconciled. Some teachings were of their time. We move on with what we know, taking with us that which makes sense.
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Jammy Dodger

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

This seems to conflict with some Christian teachings on stuff like earthquakes (as evil), so I'm not sure how these views can be reconciled.

I don't think they need to be reconciled. Some teachings were of their time. We move on with what we know, taking with us that which makes sense.
I’m not sure Christian teaching (well OK Christ’s teaching) was ever that natural disasters are evil. I know I am extrapolating a bit but in Luke 13:4 Jesus clearly indicates that natural disasters are not God’s vengeance on the guilty. I would take this to mean they are not evil in themselves. They are a result of living in a “free, open” universe that is essential for us to genuinely have free will.
(Tangent: my evidence for this is Gen 1, where God creates “spaces” on the first 3 days that are then filled on the next 3 days. Poetic language in my mind for God creating space for creation to create itself – the processes of cosmology and evolution to create what we seeing filling those spaces – in other words the universe is to some extent “free” itself)
Evil, to me, then comes from the element of free will. It is the deliberate choice of those wanting to “rob, kill & destroy” – those who make deliberate choice to act in a malicious way.
So in terms of the devil (and any demons) I agree with the Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Angels are created with free will. So some angels have irrevocably chosen to reject God.
So I think I am saying a natural disaster cannot be evil because there is no intelligent choice behind it.
However there can be a devil who is an angelic being, originally created good by God, but who has chosen via their freewill to oppose God.
However, that still leaves me with questions around “Satan” – does the idea of “Satan” in Scripture only refer to one entity or several (e.g. a personal fallen angel and also certain human power structures set up in opposition to God?)

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
With regard to lying:

The essence of a lie is the intention to deceive. It is possible to lie by telling part of the truth, or perhaps by making a succession of true statements but in a particular order.

The phrase "economic with the truth" springs to mind .

Also I'm thinking of a lie used to *protect* , either one's self, or the emotions of another . An example being when someone in a relationship falls for another but doesn't own up to it for fear of the consequences.

There is that thing called a Happy Deception . The problem only comes when a deception is exposed because unhappiness then becomes the victor .
Creating unhappiness is the devil's stock and trade so deceptions, lies and half truths are found at the top of his tool-kit .

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quetzalcoatl
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Jammy Dodger wrote:

I’m not sure Christian teaching (well OK Christ’s teaching) was ever that natural disasters are evil. I know I am extrapolating a bit but in Luke 13:4 Jesus clearly indicates that natural disasters are not God’s vengeance on the guilty. I would take this to mean they are not evil in themselves. They are a result of living in a “free, open” universe that is essential for us to genuinely have free will.

Good points. I was thinking of texts like 'the whole creation groans', which I think have been interpreted by some as saying that nature itself bears the burden of the fall. For example, death makes its entrance.

I suppose this is heading into creationist territory, e.g. prelapsarian vegetarian lions (aw, cute!), and so on.

But hasn't it been general Christian teaching that nature is deformed in some way, and this deformation will be rectified, finis temporis huius? Maybe I am muddling up different ideas.

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Jammy Dodger

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Quetzalcoatl:
quote:
But hasn't it been general Christian teaching that nature is deformed in some way, and this deformation will be rectified, finis temporis huius? Maybe I am muddling up different ideas.
Fair point. (I had to look up what finis temporis huius meant!) but you are right there is the view in Scripture that all creation is groaning and, at the end of time, this universe will be rolled-up and a new one created. A new heaven and a new earth (joined) where creation no longer groans and we live in resurrected bodies free from evil. That is probably a thread on it's own but to your point it means that no I haven't really reconciled these strands but also no I don't think you are muddling ideas up they are related.

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quetzalcoatl
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Jammy Dodger

Sorry about the Latin. That's why I find Darwinian theodicy to be both fascinating and bizarre, as it seems to overturn a lot of traditional Christian ideas. For here, pain and death are seen as beneficial.

So, earlier, the point was made about earthquakes being evil, yet tectonic plate movement and volcanoes seem to be crucial to the renewal of the earth, in terms of minerals, gases, possibly soil quality, and so on.

Although originally it was developed to counter the idea that evolution was a kind of massive spoke in the Christian wheel, since the apparently negative aspects of life, can be shown to be beneficial. Thus, pain, for example, seems to be of great benefit, although of course, unpleasant.

But theistic evolution is something of a minefield. Maybe it's a dead horse also.

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Gwai
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It's easy to forget translations, and I'm glad Jammy Dodger knows what it means now, but let's include a translation for everyone one else please.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

[ 06. November 2013, 13:22: Message edited by: Gwai ]

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Jammy Dodger

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It's easy to forget translations, and I'm glad Jammy Dodger knows what it means now, but let's include a translation for everyone one else please.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

Apologies I included this in my post but didn't make it explicit. The translation is (according to google) "at the end of time".

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LeRoc

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quote:
Jammy Dodger: The translation is (according to google) "at the end of time".
I think "[at] the end of this time" would be a slightly better translation of finis temporis huius.

[ 06. November 2013, 14:52: Message edited by: LeRoc ]

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shamwari
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I am with those who refuse to designate natural diisasters as evil.

IT is necessary always to draw a distinction between Evil / Bad; and Good / Right

A thing might be Right but not necessarily Good.

Natural disasters may be bad in the consequences thay have on humans caught up in them. That doesnt equate with them being evil in themselves.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jammy Dodger: The translation is (according to google) "at the end of time".
I think "[at] the end of this time" would be a slightly better translation of finis temporis huius.
Yes, 'huius' means 'this'. It's from 4 Ezra, I think, dies enim iudicii erit finis temporis huius et initium futuri inmortalis temporis.

Oh bloody hell, that's torn it, this means:

for the day of judgment will be the end of this time, and the beginning of endless time to come.

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Jammy Dodger

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I bow to everyone's better understanding of Latin. I had no idea at all until I looked it up.

Back to your point about Darwinian theodicy quetzalcoatl:

As I said before I haven't reconciled all this in my head but I think I am saying:

  • There is a distinction between "evil" - conscious/malicious action as a result of free will, and
  • The "unpleasant"/bad stuff that happens around us like pain and death (which could be regarded as an essential part of the universe as it is now.
  • Finally it would appear that both of these are consigned to the cosmic dustbin come "the end of this time" when the new heaven and earth are ushered in.


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Martin60
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Looks pretty reconciled to me Jay Dee.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
I bow to everyone's better understanding of Latin. I had no idea at all until I looked it up.

Back to your point about Darwinian theodicy quetzalcoatl:

As I said before I haven't reconciled all this in my head but I think I am saying:

  • There is a distinction between "evil" - conscious/malicious action as a result of free will, and
  • The "unpleasant"/bad stuff that happens around us like pain and death (which could be regarded as an essential part of the universe as it is now.
  • Finally it would appear that both of these are consigned to the cosmic dustbin come "the end of this time" when the new heaven and earth are ushered in.

Sounds OK. I think there is still some sort of contradiction, since pain and death are traditionally seen as consequences of the fall, yet here are some people saying that they are beneficial or adaptive products of evolution.

But this may connect with another aspect of theodicy - that God does not intervene to stop bad stuff often, but then maybe he is maintaining the orderliness of the universe. If he kept intervening, the universe would be unintelligible, and magical.

However, I ain't gonna break my britches over it. It's OK to just have contradictions I think, and just let me be for a bit.

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Jammy Dodger

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# 17872

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Sounds OK. I think there is still some sort of contradiction, since pain and death are traditionally seen as consequences of the fall, yet here are some people saying that they are beneficial or adaptive products of evolution.

But this may connect with another aspect of theodicy - that God does not intervene to stop bad stuff often, but then maybe he is maintaining the orderliness of the universe. If he kept intervening, the universe would be unintelligible, and magical.

However, I ain't gonna break my britches over it. It's OK to just have contradictions I think, and just let me be for a bit.

I agree. Got into exactly that point over on the Calvinism thread. I still don't think I've got something that I feel happy with. But I totally agree that ultimately God is God - I cannot expect to understand everything about him and maybe an important part of faith is holding two apparently contradictory things in tension (like God's undoubted love and his apparent lack of intervention around the bad stuff - though Christ's coming counts as a pretty monumental intervention). Someone once told me that this is more of a problem for Western Christians. Eastern philosophy tends to feature deliberately mediating on paradoxical truths - apparently (I'm no expert).

Conscious of your last comment so no reply expected.

ps Martin - thanks!

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quetzalcoatl
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Jammy Dodger

Sorry, didn't mean that to sound so rude. I didn't mean that you should leave me be, but that I should! No point in keeping scratching the itchy spot sometimes.

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Jammy Dodger

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# 17872

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[Smile] no offence taken Quetzalcoatl I didn't take it as rude just that we'd exhausted the conversation [Biased]

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