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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Prayer and Fasting
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
In Matthew 17:
quote:
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast it out? 20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 But this kind goeth not out save by prayer and fasting.
Who here is supposed to fast? The ill person with the demon or the person trying to heal him?
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I always assumed it was the person trying to heal him. Never thought it might be the other way round. Good question.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Well, one piece of good news is that that verse is almost certainly a later addition to Matthew: See note on verse 21.
But, that doesn't stop us from having to wrestle with the text in its Markan parallel:
quote:
Mark 9:29
He told them, “This kind can come out only by prayer.”
Given that a common theme in Mark 9 is the failure of the disciples, I would suggest that it's them not praying which is the problem.
The Lukan parallel (9:37-43) also lacks any reference to the necessity of prayer.
[ 07. November 2013, 13:25: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
This text has disturbed me profoundly ever since I read the Victoria Climbie report setting out the events leading up to this little girl's tragic death at the age of 8.
The woman in charge of Victoria and her partner tortured and starved Victoria to death, and their church pastor unwittingly abetted them by maintaining that the child was possessed by a demon which prayer and fasting would drive out.
Follow the link and read paragraphs 3.77 to 3.80 (especially 3.79), but please be warned - this official report is not pleasant reading.
We should all be very careful indeed how we interpret such texts, especially if we are sharing our interpretation with other people and we don't know all their circumstances.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
That's the sort of thing I was wondering about, Chamois. I had heard a young man with schizophrenia say that he had been fasting for weeks to cure his disease and it sent me to the text.
Dangerous as this interpretation of the text is, it makes more sense to me that Jesus would have been talking about the ill person. Maybe because I don't know of any other time when he told the disciples to fast before going out to heal people.
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Well, I'm no expert, but like the other posters here I've always thought the fasting is meant be done by the healer, not the person being healed.
Hart has pointed out that the parallel passage in Mark refers just to prayer, without mentioning fasting. So I think we have to ask, what is the purpose of fasting in a religious context? Surely the idea is to heighten concentration on the praying? Missing a couple of meals can create a keyed-up feeling of well-being, a feeling of being "in the moment". In extreme cases going without food for long periods can induce an altered state of consciousness and I believe that some religious traditions interpret this as a state of grace (just as some traditions interpret using controlled intoxication by various substances as an approach to God).
The gospels tell us that Jesus was very keen on prayer. He prayed himself and he instructed his disciples to pray. But he doesn't seem to have been a proponent of fasting. On the contrary, he was willing to eat a meal with anybody. He even supported his disciples when they plucked and ate grain on the sabbath because they were hungry. And the first thing he said after raising Jairus' daughter from the dead was, "give the kid something to eat". I can't believe he would have wanted sick people to fast. And anyway, how could someone as sick as the Gerasene demoniac possibly fast (or even pray)?
I would interpret the passage in the OP as saying that some acts of healing require extreme concentration on the part of the healer to align her/himself with God.
Having said that, I don't know much about the ministry of healing and I'd be interested in other people's views on this.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In Matthew 17:
quote:
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast it out? 20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21 But this kind goeth not out save by prayer and fasting.
Who here is supposed to fast? The ill person with the demon or the person trying to heal him?
I am another one who thinks the prayer and fasting is to be done by the healer. Apart from the reason that Hart has already pointed out, verses 20 and 21 are a direct reply to the disciples question in verse 19: 'Why couldn't we cast it out? (italics mine). In verse 20 Jesus told the disciples what their problem was – lack of faith. I read v.21 as a follow on instruction to deal with the disciples' own problem as well as the problem that they mentioned. Therefore it was the disciples who were supposed to do the prayer and fasting. Having said that, I don't know Greek so can't get into what the Greek texts actually said or whether v.21 was even there in the first place. But from the English text linked above, that seems to be the most natural reading to me.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
The gospels tell us that Jesus was very keen on prayer. He prayed himself and he instructed his disciples to pray. But he doesn't seem to have been a proponent of fasting.
But he fasted in the wilderness. See Luke 4:1-2.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
But he fasted in the wilderness. See Luke 4:1-2.
Yes. But he is not on record as telling or advising anyone else to fast.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Yes he is. Mark 2:20 (and parallels) marks fasting as a post-Ascension practice for the Church.
Matthew's triple didache on piety establishes prayer, fasting and almsgiving as the three practices that comprise a pious life. Matthew 6:16 begins "when you fast," not "if."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
You're right. I'd forgotten that bit.
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
This text has disturbed me profoundly ever since I read the Victoria Climbie report setting out the events leading up to this little girl's tragic death at the age of 8.
The woman in charge of Victoria and her partner tortured and starved Victoria to death, and their church pastor unwittingly abetted them by maintaining that the child was possessed by a demon which prayer and fasting would drive out.
Follow the link and read paragraphs 3.77 to 3.80 (especially 3.79), but please be warned - this official report is not pleasant reading.
We should all be very careful indeed how we interpret such texts, especially if we are sharing our interpretation with other people and we don't know all their circumstances.
We live down the road from this church. I am afraid that their literature is still often concerned with driving out bad luck and demons, breaking curses and the like ![[Frown]](frown.gif) . I can't help but think about Victoria every time I walk past - we should indeed be very careful about interpreting texts.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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