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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Israel and Palestine - what can we sanely discuss
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The Canadian magazine The Walrus has an article (link with quote below) which discusses the difficulty of talking sensibly about anything related to the conflict and problems, because it inevitably degenerates into felt historical trauma, anger and pretty well cliché types of repetitive vitriol.
quote:
http://thewalrus.ca/the-israel-taboo/
Our token WASP kept quiet, unable to get a word in, until finally he asked, “How will they ever figure out how to get along in the Middle East? Even the Montreal Jews can’t agree.”
....
The problem with this linguistic warfare is that it re-entrenches existing positions. Everyone wants to convince, and no one wants to listen.
Can we possibly have any discussion between the 2 sides that perhaps identifies that they share something? Maybe at least trauma? Or is it 'pox on both houses'?
I think we have to realize that the shared thing is the suffering, but maybe that's too much to ask.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Things that in my mind make discussing the issue difficult:
1. The recent history of the Holocaust and the knowledge of many gentile commenters that their ancestors likely participated in or permitted antisemitism. Even in parts of the US, where Jews feel much more comfortable being openly and outwardly Jewish than in much of Europe, the small number of Jews and the large numbers of everyone else make having discussions about this topic difficults, even among people who all know very well that the Jewish people and the State of Israel are completely different things.
2. Although the Palestinians and people in Arab, Islamic, and Leftist worlds who identify with their struggle do have good cause to be skeptical of the Israeli government and military, the anti-Israel and antisemitic vitriol heard constantly on the streets of many Islamic countries is bone chilling (as is the rhetoric used by politicians in countries such as Iran). The rhetoric of Western left-leaning politicians and academics who sympathize with the Palestinians is not as hateful, but it often seems to paint Israeli politicians, troops, settlers, and complacent citizens in a grotesque light that does not take into account the existential fear inspired not only by the Holocaust, but by decades of violent opposition to Israel's existence by other countries and militias in the Middle East.
3. The fact that whatever solution might be negotiated (or even the option of doing nothing and maintaining the status quo while settlements continue to be built) is going to involve the forced displacement or many people, the loss by many people on both sides of rights to a land they feel is theirs by birth, decades of continued squabbling over water rights and other border issues, violence of one form or another - or, in the unlikely case of a one-state solution, an ungovernable state more likely than not to descend into civil war.
I probably sound more pro-Israeli than pro-Palestinian here, but I'm not. I think that the fact that Israel has so much more military and economic might (not to mention nuclear weapons) and has much more powerful diplomatic allies is the elephant in the room. Discussing the Middle East conflict then, has to involve a lot of understanding the Israeli mindset (and the mindset of pro-Israeli Jews in the diaspora (not that all or even most Jews in the diaspora support Israeli policy)). Otherwise, the discussion is likely to turn into a whole discussion of how to rescue the poor Palestinians from their evil Israeli oppressors. To a certain extent, the situation does resemble that. But there are oceans full of nuance that make apporaching the whole thing from a moral standpoint that is not naive very difficult.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Experience from many discussions here is that the chance of a sane discussion is remote. There are just too many people insanely saying and doing things that seem designed to raise tensions and counter any chance of sane discussion, much less a just solution (or even a way forward that is more just and peaceful than what we currently have). That includes various clerics and national leaders in Arab countries, radical Zionists in Israel and other nations, nut-job conservative Christians seeing in the nation of Israel a fulfilment of prophecy and the conflict in the region a prelude to Armaggeddon (not that all conservative Christians think that, I hasten to add), radical Palestinians etc. Pile on a load of guilt over past injustices (perpetrated and done by all sides), tensions caused by ill-judged foreign policy decisions by Western powers seemingly motivated by concerns over oil supplies, and some general ignorance (of which I am as guilty as any) about the whole mess and well, we have a whole mess.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
What is there to say? It's not our business. Let them sort it out if they can, not supporting any side, but don't get involved because, quite frankly, both sides are just as bad as each other. One thing I don't understand though is all this "right to exist" nonsense, whether that be the state of Israel, any possible Palestinian state or any state for that matter.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
The fundamental problem is that any discussion about Israel and Palestine rapidly becomes perceived as a discussion about Jews.
EDIT: As illustrated perhaps even by the quote in the opening post.
[ 10. December 2013, 20:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
To start the Sisyphean rock rolling down hill:
There is much to say. It is our business. We created it. We sustain it. They can't sort it out, not without us supporting everyone. I fail to see that because both sides are as bad as each other, despite Israel's order of magnitude superiority in killing innocent children and every other aspect of war, we shouldn't get involved. The 'right to exist' nonsense is a right you take for granted.
If we don't sacrifice for them, they will bring us all down lower. To the radioactive shores of Fire Lake.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What is there to say? It's not our business. Let them sort it out if they can, not supporting any side, but don't get involved because, quite frankly, both sides are just as bad as each other. One thing I don't understand though is all this "right to exist" nonsense, whether that be the state of Israel, any possible Palestinian state or any state for that matter.
Did the Finns have a right to their own independent state at the beginning of the 20th Century?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
President Clinton said it best.
After staying up late endless nights poring over maps he had this realisation (which all politicians and citizens of Planet Earth should say to themselves before pontificating):
"You can't want it more than they do"
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
What is there to say? It's not our business. Let them sort it out if they can, not supporting any side, but don't get involved because, quite frankly, both sides are just as bad as each other. One thing I don't understand though is all this "right to exist" nonsense, whether that be the state of Israel, any possible Palestinian state or any state for that matter.
Did the Finns have a right to their own independent state at the beginning of the 20th Century?
No more right than than any other nation but at least they were born there.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Merchant Trader
Shipmate
# 9007
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Posted
Having recently been to Israel, Jerusalem and the OT of Palestine (West Bank) with Christian Aid to see the work they are doing with partners there, including and especially the YWCA, I would initially make the following points:
Palestinians are as different from surrounding nations as the French are from the English. They are not all Muslims, folk are surprised to learn that there are still 40,000 Christian Palestinians on the West Bank working and living with Muslim Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians we met on the West Bank were certainly not Islamists and seemed to have very different political views to the extreme comments of referred to above; what we heard was acceptance of the existence of Israel (1948 boundaries) but a desire for an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank (and Gaza) and in some case a desire to return "home" in Israel (although many dismissed that as impractical and wanted to look forward). Lots of sentiment about desire to work with Israel in Peace with acknowledgement Israel's security fears.
The restrictions placed on Palestinians on the West Bank mean that there is restricted freedom of movement, restricted access to markets, restricted participation in the labour force and no meaningful political rights except limited local government rights in Zones A & B. Zone C (which is the cheese in the West Bank Swiss Cheese, zones A & B are the holes) is under military control. The result of all this is that for Palestinians living under military occupation there is relative poverty and restricted opportunity. If you add the fact that some still live in 1948 Refugee camps, that there are now 115 Israeli settlements on the West bank joined to each other and to Israel by Area C and there is now a wall between palestinian areas of the West Bank and Israel/Jersusalem: for palestinians on the ground on the West Bank it must be like living in homelands in the old apartheid South Africa.
What can we do? What business is it of ours.
Well we cannot re-write history and perhaps not even contribute to the political solution. We certainly have to bear in mind what was done to the jews as well as what happened to the Palestinians when the World invited Jews to make palestine their homeland. There is more than one story here and one can have empathy with more than one such story and people.
BUT
We can push for Palestinians, Muslim and Christian, to be treated with dignity, be given access to labour markets and markets for goods, to bee given opportunity, freedom of movement, property rights, security and political rights. I/we may not be able to settle the great political questions but we can try and make a difference for people trapped between the great grinding mill wheels. They need to know they matter.
I hope folk at least read some of the material I posted above.
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... formerly of Muscovy, Lombardy & the Low Countries; travelling through diverse trading stations in the New and Olde Worlds
Posts: 1328 | Registered: Jan 2005
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Something you rarely hear discussed in US front page news about Israel/Palestine is the continued existence of Palestinian refugee camps in surrounding countries. There are a huge number of people still living in these camps. I know that Jordan, Lebanon, etc., have no duty under international law to allow these Palestinians to permanently immigrate to their countries (although the West Bank used to be part of Jordan), and at least some of the Palestinians in those camps may refuse to do so because they feel their home is in Palestine - but after more than 60 years of living in the territory of another country I think that morality demands that people be given the right to stay and live normal lives outside of camps. I do not know much about the history of these camps or their status today so if anyone here knows more please feel free to post.
In addition, many nations in Europe opened themselves up to Iraqi refugees during the Iraq war - was this ever done for Palestinian refugees? I know that the 1948 and 1967 wars that prompted the refugee crisis are long over, but might there not be an argument that the West could help Jordan, Lebanon, etc., in absorbing refugees and their descendants when there is enough conflict about who should live where for the people living inside the borders of Palestine and Israel? I am not saying that allowing refugees to immigrate would mean giving up on negotiating the Right of Return of Palestinians to their ancestral lands within the current state of Israel. But it would be a big humanitarian gesture (although very complicated especially given the whole War on Terror issue with who is "linked" to terrorism (how do you even define that?)).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Experience from many discussions here is that the chance of a sane discussion is remote.
It may be closer than you think... if only the right person could come along and bring it all together.
I hereby nominate Simon for Prime Minister of Israel.
Hell, if Hunter Thompson had a shot at Pitkin County Sheriff and Kinky Friedman at Texas Governor... why not?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Simon???
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Simon (I guess.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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