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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Everyone's a little bit racist?
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
On the “Race and Sexual Attraction” thread, at least one person has explicitly asserted the view that everyone is at least a bit racist, with some level of implicit agreement from others (or so it seemed to me).
I disagree with that – indeed I think it a ridiculous and offensive assertion – and would like to explore the reasons behind it.
I'll start by making the following concessions.
1. I concede that racism is common.
As a white man, I probably underestimate how common it is, but I'm alert enough to know that I live in what might fairly be called a racist society. I think, and hope, that it's getting less racist, but I know we haven't yet succeeded in marginalising racism.
2. I concede that almost everyone denies that they are racist.
This fact, taken with the one above, leads to the conclusion that many people who deny racism actually are racist. “I'm not a racist but...” is almost always followed by a racist comment. However, as far as I can tell, many people who make such comments do seem genuinely to think that they aren't racist.
3. I concede that unconscious racial prejudice exists.
People can be racist without knowing it.
4. I concede that racial stereotypes and attitudes are part of my culture.
When I deny being racist, I'm obviously not claiming to be ignorant of those stereotypes. Clearly there is some part of my brain in which memes like “Jews are miserly” are stored.
5. I concede that there are unconscious biases not racist in themselves but which can have racist effects.
It is, I think, natural, to be more comfortable with people whose appearance and mannerisms are familiar than with those who present as 'strangers'. That's not inherently a racist thing – it might well cause me to be more immediately comfortable with a middle class black Londoner over a working class white northerner – but clearly there is a potential here for unconscious favouring of one's own race. Raising consciousness to avoid such biases leading to unfairness is unquestionably a good thing.
But conceding all of that, I assert that it is possible – even easy – not to be racist. And I have two reason for asserting this:
A. Racism is phenomenally stupid.
There is really nothing to be said for racial prejudice on an intellectual level. It is beyond all doubt that the whole human race is closely related and that we all descend from African ancestors. The divisions between the allegedly different races are both blurry and superficial. It is obvious as soon as one knows several members of a different race that knowing someone's racial identity is essentially useless in predicting any of their personality traits or talents.
Therefore one's attitude to others is determined primarily by thinking (and I like to imagine that mine is), racism doesn't get a look in.
B. Racism is obviously unfair.
Again, this seems to me to be beyond all dispute. There may be a prevalent cultural meme that 'Jews are miserly', but there is no prevalent ethical meme that it is OK to think that Jews are miserly. On the contrary, there is a very strong moral consensus against racism. It would be really hard for me to fool myself into thinking that I was justified in doing something motivated by racial prejudice. 'Racism is wrong' is a strong, and uncontroversial, moral proposition.
So to be racist, I have to act or think on the basis of ideas which, though they are in a sense part of my culture, are indelibly marked as utterly wrong and idiotic. The temptation to be racist is, for me, negligible. Resisting it is trivially easy. As an illustration, there is, I think, no stronger cultural example of a prejudice than the one I've cited about the alleged meanness of Jews. It has been a stock theme of literature, and remains the foundation of a thousand Jewish jokes. Even so, the concept that Jews are mean has no impact on my behaviour and attitudes beyond the fact that I don't need to ask for those jokes to be explained. “Jews are mean” simply does not translate into “Rebecca is mean”. I'd feel (correctly) that if I did allow this cultural prejudice to affect how I regarded Rebecca's actual personality, I'd be doing something both mindless and unjust. Also, I'd be doing that mindless and unjust thing for no likely benefit to myself, and possibly at the cost of not benefitting from such generosity as Rebecca might possess. So why should I do it?
And as I don't regard myself as particular unusual, and certainly not a saint or moral paragon, if I'm not racist (I'm not) there's no reason to think that everyone else must be racist. There must be millions of people who aren't racist.
So where does the absurd idea that everyone is racist come from? What could possibly be said in defence of so sweeping and apparently improbable an allegation?
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Presumably it depends on how you define racism.
When I lived in Paris I was at first struck by the fact that I could sense myself instinctively distrusting a lot of North African immigrants. I eventually worked out that this is because in their culture eye contact can be seen as disrespectful, and so quite often they would avoid eye contact when I would expect it.
Was I racist? There is no rational reason why North Africans should be less worthy of trust than anyone else. On the other hand, one cannot know every possible aspect of everyone else's culture.
[ 12. December 2013, 09:45: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It does depend on how you define racism; particularly, a strong and weak form.
I agree that not everyone has the strong form - send the blacks back, for example - but I'm not sure about the weak forms of it.
It's complicated by the possible unconscious nature of it - hence, I don't actually know if I am racist or not, until I find myself having a racist thought, which I do occasionally.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I struggle with how one can get rid of any so-called “unconscious racism”. If it is unconscious then how can one even be aware of it until it becomes conscious, let alone try to eradicate it?
I think the OP is right about the fear of strangers probably being part of the roots of racism, and that itself is probably evolutionary. As the OP says, they feel more comfortable with a middle-class, black Londoner than a working class, white Northerner simply because they have more in common with the middle-class, black Londoner. Going back to our evolutionary beginnings we probably developed that sense of comfort to protect ourselves from enemies and as a more certain way of obtaining a mate.
So any unconscious racism is probably due to a primitive part of the brain feeling discomfort at someone with whom they don’t have many common points of reference. I guess it isn’t a large leap to see why some people are more comfortable with single members of a different race than with larger grouping such as the race itself, because one person is less of a threat than a whole group.
But if that is the case – and I stress it is only my own thoughts on the matter – how can one prevent unconscious racism. By definition it will not be obvious until is displays itself in overt racism, at which point any number of social and moral pressures should enable one to restrict the impact, hopefully to the point where there is no racial act displayed at all.
Also, if that unconscious racism is the result of evolution, then it should disappear when races are more comfortable with each other. That takes exposure and time, but we should evolve it out of existence surely.
I think a bigger question – if there is such a thing as unconscious racism – is whether racism has to be deliberate. Is it correct to label unconscious racism as racism, or does it actually cheapen the word, harming the fight against more damaging and egregious forms of racism? Should it have a different label (“unconscious bias” perhaps) to distinguish it from the activities of the Klan or the Holocaust?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
As some have already said, it depends on how you understand the whole concept of race. There are quite a number of sociologists and a growing number of anthropologists who now claim that race is an entirely human construct. If they are right, then we are all a little racist because are brains are hardwired to categorise and differentiate difference. There are also some who suggest that geneticists sub or unconsciously read racial theory into their genetic findings simply because they are reading categories from perceived categories - if you see what I mean.
All of that aside (as it's a bit of a complex issue that could be a thread in itself), there is an issue about language and how it is used. Sometimes how we phrase or understand something can be laced with an inherent racism that we either don't recognise, nor even hold to, yet the meaning and phraseology betrays it. To give an example - and this might be a bad one, but it's all I can think of at the moment - lots of people and academics etc can talk of 'primitive religions' in relation to small groups of people or tribal peoples religious ideology. Now these religions can be incredibly complex with huge social implications and cultural benefit, but due to the phraseology and terms a racism (because it can often be used in relation to a particular tribal grouping) can be carried through even on an unconscious level and sadly, sometimes on a quite conscious level.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Another vote here for "It depends what you consider to be racism". One study of unconscious bias involved asking subjects to present themselves to take part in an experiment. On turning up at the site, they were greeted by an administrator behind a desk. They were asked to complete a form. While doing this, the administrator disappeared behind the counter and was replaced by another person.
The study showed consistently that for white participants, you could replace a white person with another white person - even one with different coloured hair, glasses as opposed to no glasses, different dress, and the person completing the registration form wouldn't react. But where the white person was replaced with a black person, the person registering would notice this and some comment on it.
Unfortunately, I don't know if you get the same results in reverse (ie whether black participants would regard people of their own ethnicity as interchangeable, but someone of different ethnicity as worthy of remark).
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
I agree with most of what everyone has said, but I have a true example which may show up another complexity.
Two friends of mine, A & B, moved to a small village in the depth of the English country side. When they ordered The Jewish Chronicle at the village store (this was when villages had stores - a long time ago) there was some consternation, not racist, just the shop keeper had never heard of it. As far as he knew no Jew had ever lived in the village.
Everybody was friendly: the village cricket club invited A to become their treasurer. They thought a Jew probably won't be any good at cricket but would be good with money.
The CoE vicar, hearing B had sung in a professional choir in London, asked if she wanted to join the church's choir. Obviously, he said, if she had religious scruples he would understand but he knew some Jews weren't religious so she might enjoy it.
The response to A is racist - but is positive racism acceptable? Is it also wrong to make use of positive stereotypes?
What about B in the choir, is that being too non-racist (if that's possible)?
A doesn't play cricket but isn't good at managing money either. B remained on good terms with the vicar but didn't sing in the choir.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
que sais-je
Your examples made me laugh, which probably shows they are not hard-core racist. But the idea of the only Jew in the village is quite funny.
Our village has filled up with Lithuanians, and most of the time there is no problem at all. Some of them bought the local garden nursery, and a friend of mine blurted out, I expect it'll become a cannabis farm.
I suppose this is racist, but again, it made me laugh. Of course, ironically, it's the Lithuanians who do all the hard work now, on the land and so on, while the English kids play on their X-boxes. Now is that anti-English prejudice, or maybe anti-yoof?
As you can see, I am a seething mass of prejudice.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
There are two problems with terminology here:
1.) "Jewish" is not a race, just as "Christian" or "Muslim" are not races. The terms refer to a faith, and to some considerable extent a culture. Most people of Jewish faith are what the Americans quaintly refer to as "Caucasian", but there are Jews of any race.
2.) the term "race" refers to human phenotypes. And it would be rather silly to deny that there exist differences in that. The colour of my skin is not a social construction. We should distinguish between "race" (phenotype) and "culture". And again, it would be silly to deny that there are considerable differences between cultures.
That being said, I freely admit to sometimes being "culturist".
[ 12. December 2013, 13:32: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Is everyone a little bit racist? Probably.
Does it matter? Probably not.
I live in an incredibly 'whitebread' part of the world - the last census had us down as something like 95% white British, and of the 5% who aren't, the greatest number of foreigns are white Eastern European and Scandinavians. Who are also mainly white. We also host the largest Hassidic Jewish community in the UK, if not Europe - while their dress shows their religion, they're also white.
So the few Asians, Blacks and Chinese are a real rarity - I'd have to actively go and seek them out and ask them how they find it here, but there are a few Asian and Black kids in school, and I can't remember an incidence of racist bullying or insults in the 8 years I worked there.
The only person I can think of who does talk about race openly is my greengrocer, but that's because he's a socially inept ex-soldier and words just come out in an unfortunate order. He inadvertently insults pretty much everyone at some time or other - I wouldn't put it down to any urge to march into Poland.
We all know - as per the OP - that racism is stupid and wrong. If I catch myself being a little bit racist, I tut at myself, because I know I can do better - not reassign myself to a Re-education Centre to be purged of Thought Crimes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I am guilty for introducing the "everyone is at least a little racist" idea in another thread. Here I will take what I was referring to as "racism" and divide it into four things:
racialism: attributing qualities to people because of race (and not because of your experience with those individuals). I think everyone does this, and I think reaches the point of influencing speech and behavior, even if slightly, in everyone. Some societies with more fluid racial boundaries and definitions, like Brazil, have less of this (but even those societies have all four of the categories of racial thinking that I am proposing).
racism (part of classically defined): prejudice (ie, a value judgment) of a person/people because of race. This can be positive or negative (trust me, it is not a good thing to assume Jews are good with money, that East Asians are good at math, or the Africans are good with sports and dancing - it makes the object of the positive prejudice feel like they are not being evaluated by their real character and for many people makes them feel creeped-out and uncomfortable). I think that everyone has some of these prejudices in their thoughts and attitudes, even if they aren't always aware of them - BUT they can prevent these thought and attitudes from affecting their speech and behavior. Doing so is often harder than it seems, but it is possible.
Racial discrimination (the other part of racism classically-defined): racial prejudice codified in laws or the rules of an organization - this is generally recognized as a bad thing, although many defend it in some way (as with affirmative action, which I support; racial quotas (which I don't support) are increasingly rejected in modern society but using "diversity" as a factor in hiring or admitting to University to distinguish between equally-qualified candidates is still a highly accepted practice). This is much easier to recognize and avoid than the two things above.
racial hatred: antipathy, disgust, and a desire for harm against another race (or a desire to not have to interact with another race). This is a particularly bad type of racism - and when it is codified as racial discrimination we have the examples that no one wants to be associated with, like slavery, segregation, Apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing, etc. I never meant to say that everyone has this kind of attitude.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
stonespring
And maybe at the back of it all is our attitude to difference. I think many people positively enjoy this, but some people are afraid of it, or dislike it.
But difference is not simply about race or nationality, obviously, (also involves sex, gender, sexuality, generation, region, class, etc.) so no doubt, there are tons of Ph. D.s being written about the sociology of difference.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
There are two problems with terminology here:
... the term "race" refers to human phenotypes
The definition is obviously a relatively recent one. I think you'd still find many people still use the term more more widely.
Do you have an alternative single term? My friends couldn't accuse the cricket club of "anti-Semitism" for example, "pro-Semitism" perhaps.
Is there a term anyone would suggest?
[ 12. December 2013, 14:11: Message edited by: que sais-je ]
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Being ignorant or mildly suspicious of outsiders or foreigners is fairly common I would think.
That's not the same thing as attributing characteristics to people based on their skin tone or physical appearance, which is how I would define racism.
Using my definition - no I don't think everyone is a bit racist.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
2.) the term "race" refers to human phenotypes. And it would be rather silly to deny that there exist differences in that. The colour of my skin is not a social construction. We should distinguish between "race" (phenotype) and "culture". And again, it would be silly to deny that there are considerable differences between cultures.
That being said, I freely admit to sometimes being "culturist".
I recall working with a white South African collegue, many years ago, when they still had apartheid. I returned from a holiday with a rather spectacular case of sun-tan, and joked with him that he would now have to regard me as a second-class citizen (a racist joke on my part, I now realise). He retorted that he had no problem with the colour of anyone’s skin – apartheid was all about “cultcha” (a racist caricature of his accent, perhaps?).
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Racism is part of our evolutionary psychology. It stems from tribal background where it was a safety development of facial recognition of "the other tribe". Studies using photos of different faces and asking who would you trust/fear, have shown that people have this inbred characteristic.
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
1.) "Jewish" is not a race, just as "Christian" or "Muslim" are not races. The terms refer to a faith, and to some considerable extent a culture. Most people of Jewish faith are what the Americans quaintly refer to as "Caucasian", but there are Jews of any race.
Jewish identity is fascininating because it is part religion, part ethnicity, part phenotype, and part ancestry. The phenotype and ancestry part give Jewish identity part of the characteristics of race. Many Ashkenazi Jews are indestinguishable in appearance from non-Jews, especially in places like New York City where there are many non-Jews whose ancestors came from the same countries or regions as the ancestors of the Jews here and there has been so much interfaith, inter-ethnic, and interracial marriage that guessing a person's ancestry from their appearance is very difficult. However, there are certain people, even in NYC, who in ways that have nothing to do with they way the dress or act "look" Jewish. Even Jewish people will admit that. I have been told that I "look" Jewish even though I have no Jewish ancestry that I know of. But as you said, race is about phenotype more than ancestry (ancestry only really comes into play with race when there are racial law codes that discriminate against people of a certain ancestry even if they "pass" as having the appearance of another race).
Jews can be Jews even if they do not practice Judaism or believe in any of the tenets of Judaism. Jews can be Jews even if they do not practice any elements of Jewish culture or even feel a personal affinity for that culture. A person can be identified by others as Jewish based on their ancestry even if they personally do not indentify as Jewish. People can convert to Judaism even if they have no Jewish ancestry. When a person talks about "Jewishness" you have to ask whether they mean the Jewish religion, Jewish culture, Jewish ancestry, or Jewish appearance (which is a social construct like all concepts of race - but believe me, there is certainly a social concept of a stereotypically Jewish appearance, and it isn't necessarily a negative one. I for one find many guys who "appear" Jewish, even if they are not, attractive, and I don't think that is just one more example of my narcissism because I do not think I look remotely Jewish, despite what others say ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ).
Note: I have also been told that I look part-Asian (I'm not), French (I'm not), Greek (I'm not), and like former NYC Mayor Giuliani's son (I don't look remotely like him!). The closest people have gotten is Puerto Rican.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
2.) the term "race" refers to human phenotypes.
Who uses the term that way? Not geneticists I think.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't know much about race, but I might see a First Nations person (North American Indian), someone from Latin America, a Ukrainian and someone who identifies themselves as black, and they'd all have the same skin colour and enough similar facial morphology that I couldn't guess what "race" they might be.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
2.) the term "race" refers to human phenotypes.
Who uses the term that way? Not geneticists I think.
Using phenotype in application to humans is not sound science. Superficial physical traits are shared by peoples who are less related to those with whom they share than those with whom they do not.
Aboriginal Austalians and Sub-Sahran Africans, for example. To European eyes they have been classified together when, genetically, the Australians are more closely tied to Europeans.
An example I have on another thread was of two people, one an obviously black man and the other a red haired, obviously white woman. When testing was done, guess who had more recent sub-Saharan Africa DNA?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
And maybe at the back of it all is our attitude to difference. I think many people positively enjoy this, but some people are afraid of it, or dislike it.
Some of it is to do with numbers. Going towards our house at around 4pm we often meet up to about 50 teenagers, almost all black, from a nearby comprehensive. We are outnumbered by people who are different and we don't quite know how to behave. What's the appropriate body language? How do we react if someone bumps into us? Do we give way to them?
I don't think that's racism because I feel the same way when I meet a similar group of white kids - it's being 50-years-older-ism. But it does make me aware of how non-white refugees and asylum seekers must feel.
Difference can be be scary when you are a small minority. And some of our racism is reacting to people who haven't yet learned 'our way'. A fellow volunteer, a young Somali, used to insist on doing all heavy lifting when we worked together. I wanted to show I was still fit enough to carry heavy boxes, he came from a society where it would have been rude to expect me to.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I struggle with how one can get rid of any so-called “unconscious racism”. If it is unconscious then how can one even be aware of it until it becomes conscious, let alone try to eradicate it?
By being aware that you are not an impartial and disinterested observer whose view is automatically correct. You can't entirely get rid of unconscious racism any more than you can ever truly stop stereotyping people. But this doesn't change the fact that knowing that you do it and taking precautions is a good thing.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I struggle with how one can get rid of any so-called “unconscious racism”. If it is unconscious then how can one even be aware of it until it becomes conscious, let alone try to eradicate it?
By being aware that you are not an impartial and disinterested observer whose view is automatically correct. You can't entirely get rid of unconscious racism any more than you can ever truly stop stereotyping people. But this doesn't change the fact that knowing that you do it and taking precautions is a good thing.
This. Ask yourself, for any thought you have about a person of another race, "Is this idea being affected by some unconscious racism I might have? Am I being as objective about this as I think I am?"
It's hard but not impossible to train yourself to the mindset of second-guessing your ideas about people and subjecting them to a bit of fact-checking.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I struggle with how one can get rid of any so-called “unconscious racism”. If it is unconscious then how can one even be aware of it until it becomes conscious, let alone try to eradicate it?
By being aware that you are not an impartial and disinterested observer whose view is automatically correct. You can't entirely get rid of unconscious racism any more than you can ever truly stop stereotyping people. But this doesn't change the fact that knowing that you do it and taking precautions is a good thing.
I think unconscious racism is similar to other unconscious impulses like inappropriate sexual attraction or irrational inner suggestions of violence . It's *in there*, part of our makeup as creatures derived from those 'red in tooth and claw'. The good news is that it can be, and IS, moderated by each individual the same way as those other impulses are moderated .
If someone wants to hold their hand up and claim never to have had any such thoughts either consciously, or at a subconscious level, then that's a matter for them . I would call this a form of denial but I may be wrong.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It is quite heartening to see the children in my six year old daughter's class at school who are unfazed by the fact that some of them are from single parent families and others from stable couples, that one is Indian, another Thai, another Polish and another Hungarian. They can even cope with the fact that my daughter's daddy is a vicar.
From this I conclude that left to themselves children are largely innocent of prejudice and that hostility to this or that group in society is largely fermented by adults who were taught the same prejudice when they grew up.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Gildas is right to bring in the age factor. I grew up in a culture within which racism, sexism and homophobia were all present. Actually, they co-existed with an additional understanding that you shouldn't judge a book by it a cover, and that good character was a lot more than skin deep.
My growing up took place in the NE of England in the forties and fifties. The various revolutions of understanding which came out in the sixties were very helpful for me, acted as a cleanser of various residual prejudices. So in early adulthood, I consciously embraced MLK's 'content of character' principle. It's fair. And it goes deep.
Does it remove all subconscious visceral instinct? Shouldn't think so. Genetically, we are probably predisposed to be suspicious of the different, and have pecking order instincts to boot. But we don't have to be controlled by those instincts, that subconscious fear of strangers and strangeness. We have found a better way. The prejudiced instincts can be controlled.
Not so sure about those who, in my terms, are prejudiced by conscious conviction. I don't know how they get there. I differ from them fundamentally in that respect.
[ 13. December 2013, 11:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Talking of the NE. As Terry said in Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads, "It's not that I'm racist. I don't even like the people in the next street much.".
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Love wins
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But we don't have to be controlled by those instincts, that subconscious fear of strangers and strangeness. We have found a better way. The prejudiced instincts can be controlled.
Agreed with the addendum of One cannot control what one has not acknowledged.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But we don't have to be controlled by those instincts, that subconscious fear of strangers and strangeness. We have found a better way. The prejudiced instincts can be controlled.
Agreed with the addendum of One cannot control what one has not acknowledged.
Yes, exactly. That's the little bit that often trips us up, since unconscious stuff often lurks there, ready to disrupt us. We have to wrestle with it!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
the term "race" refers to human phenotypes. And it would be rather silly to deny that there exist differences in that. The colour of my skin is not a social construction. We should distinguish between "race" (phenotype) and "culture". And again, it would be silly to deny that there are considerable differences between cultures.
I agree with you about differences in culture, but I'm not so sure about skin colour. When you start to break it down into perceived groupings of colour, suddenly a lot of it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. There's been a lot of work done on this, and a serious amount of research, and while personally I'm not sure where I stand on it, I do feel it presents a challenge to my perceptions. Let's take the idea that all caucasians are 'white'. Now I also know that in doing this I'll be arguing by appealing to perceptions of race which for some might invalidate the whole argument, but anyway, here goes. Technically speaking of course, caucasians are not 'white' in the true sense of that word. They are actually pink. But when you start to break this down, it also doesn't quite ring true. Some caucasians have freckles and very pale skin, some have incredibly dark skin, some look almost Spanish in complexion, some have skin blotches of differing colours and shade, some are sallow, some look jaundiced, all have differing hair and eye colours; basically the variance is endless in almost every respect, yet somehow our brains translate this into classifiable groupings. Now we need to do this in order to make sense of the world. We do it from childhood. So a child who sees a black cat in a garden and sees a ginger cat in a book, standing on two legs with a hat, a cane and a black suit will still proclaim that both are 'cats' because the brain essentially fools us into classification so that we can make sense of the world around us.
Now this has implications for genetic predisposition. In an area that is isolated certain 'traits' may appear in people with strong regularity and they may hold a common cultural value. Now it is actually quite a significant jump to suggest that this is an indication of 'race' from the observation of geographical cultural and genetic predisposition.
[ 13. December 2013, 09:05: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Eliab
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# 9153
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Posted
Quite a few responses:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Presumably it depends on how you define racism.
When I lived in Paris I was at first struck by the fact that I could sense myself instinctively distrusting a lot of North African immigrants. I eventually worked out that this is because in their culture eye contact can be seen as disrespectful, and so quite often they would avoid eye contact when I would expect it.
Was I racist?
You weren't reacting to race, but to behaviour. You'd presumably have reacted the same way to a white person who acted that way. You say that you were suspicious of "a lot of" immigrants not all of them. Presumably those that exhibited what was to you suspicious behaviour got this reaction, and others of the same or similar race who met your eye didn't. If so, I'd see that as compelling evidence that you aren't a racist.
The fact that you were obviously bothered by your feelings of suspicion, had the self-awareness to work out why you had these, and ended up with a better cultural understanding of your neighbours as a result also seems to me to be entirely to your credit.
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
One study of unconscious bias involved asking subjects to present themselves to take part in an experiment. On turning up at the site, they were greeted by an administrator behind a desk. They were asked to complete a form. While doing this, the administrator disappeared behind the counter and was replaced by another person.
The study showed consistently that for white participants, you could replace a white person with another white person - even one with different coloured hair, glasses as opposed to no glasses, different dress, and the person completing the registration form wouldn't react. But where the white person was replaced with a black person, the person registering would notice this and some comment on it.
I'm not sure what that proves except "people are often pretty unobservant but will usually notice when the person with whom they are dealing actually changes colour".
In car parks, I've sometimes started walking towards a green Volvo or Audi thinking it was my green Volkswagen. I've never made such a mistake about a red VW. Same process at work?
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
"Jewish" is not a race
Then please give an example of a race. "Jewish" is of course an extremely fuzzy category, but then so is "black". Is "white" a race? If so, does the white race include people who would be classed as Hispanic/Latino in the USA, but would be unquestionably white in Europe?
quote:
the term "race" refers to human phenotypes. And it would be rather silly to deny that there exist differences in that. The colour of my skin is not a social construction.
The actual colour of your skin isn't a social construction. You could produce a huge colour chart of all human skin tones and your skin would have a place on it. Where you draw the line between 'black' and 'white' certainly is a social construction. We class some rather pale skinned people as black, and some rather dark ones as white.
quote:
it would be silly to deny that there are considerable differences between cultures.
True. But even undoubted cultural differences are often bad predictors of individual characteristics. There is a huge cultural difference, for example, in attitudes to gun control between the US and the UK, but if I assumed that any American I meet is in favour of allowing unrestricted ownership of firearms, I'd be a fool.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Eliab
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# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
racialism: attributing qualities to people because of race (and not because of your experience with those individuals). I think everyone does this, and I think reaches the point of influencing speech and behavior, even if slightly, in everyone.
Why do you think everyone does this? It strikes me as a nonsensical thing to do. Why would I do it? Why would I want to? How could it benefit me?
I don't get it. We seem to be agreed that doing this is obviously stupid and wrong, and I've asserted (without any apparent disagreement) that there's nothing about it that would make it remotely tempting. Why would you assume that we all do it? I certainly don't.
quote:
racism (part of classically defined): prejudice (ie, a value judgment) of a person/people because of race. [...] I think that everyone has some of these prejudices in their thoughts and attitudes, even if they aren't always aware of them
If by that you mean that everyone is aware of what the stereotypical value judgements are, then maybe so. There is some ingrained cultural awareness of the content of these prejudices. But that doesn't mean everyone shares that prejudice. You (generic you) can't make me a racist by telling me that blacks are X. I become racist when I believe blacks are X, not when I'm aware that lots of people think that blacks are X.
Again, I can't see any reason why you'd assume that everyone has racial prejudices.
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Racism is part of our evolutionary psychology. It stems from tribal background where it was a safety development of facial recognition of "the other tribe". Studies using photos of different faces and asking who would you trust/fear, have shown that people have this inbred characteristic.
I'll willingly believe that fear/suspicion of strnagers, and in group/out group mentality is part of our evolutionary heritage, but not racism as usually defined. For almost all of human history, most of us have surely been picking our friends and enemies from those other humans a few miles away, of the same approximate race as ourselves. It requires quite a high degree of cultural sophistication to have to actually cross the sea (desert/mountains...) to find somebody different to fight.
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
From this I conclude that left to themselves children are largely innocent of prejudice and that hostility to this or that group in society is largely fermented by adults who were taught the same prejudice when they grew up.
That matches my experience. My children were both about four when they started asking why people had different colour skin, but AFAIK have never associated this difference with any value judgement (they're now six and eight). The tenant of the top floor of our house is Nigerian, so they've always seen both black and white people - it just took them four years to remark on the difference. If racism is conjectured to have it's origins in tribalism, there seems to me to be no difficulty in persuading a white child to accept a black person as part of his or her tribe.
In contrast, both of them were clearly aware, at least since they could talk, that boys and girls were different categories, and felt a solidarity with their own gender. Sexual distinction seems to me to be far more deeply ingrained than racial.
[ 13. December 2013, 09:26: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
One study of unconscious bias involved asking subjects to present themselves to take part in an experiment. On turning up at the site, they were greeted by an administrator behind a desk. They were asked to complete a form. While doing this, the administrator disappeared behind the counter and was replaced by another person.
The study showed consistently that for white participants, you could replace a white person with another white person - even one with different coloured hair, glasses as opposed to no glasses, different dress, and the person completing the registration form wouldn't react. But where the white person was replaced with a black person, the person registering would notice this and some comment on it.
I'm not sure what that proves except "people are often pretty unobservant but will usually notice when the person with whom they are dealing actually changes colour".
In car parks, I've sometimes started walking towards a green Volvo or Audi thinking it was my green Volkswagen. I've never made such a mistake about a red VW. Same process at work?
If it were the same process - some sort of selective observation - you'd expect it also to kick in with change of hair colour and change of clothing colour.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I struggle with how one can get rid of any so-called “unconscious racism”. If it is unconscious then how can one even be aware of it until it becomes conscious, let alone try to eradicate it?
By being aware that you are not an impartial and disinterested observer whose view is automatically correct. You can't entirely get rid of unconscious racism any more than you can ever truly stop stereotyping people. But this doesn't change the fact that knowing that you do it and taking precautions is a good thing.
This. Ask yourself, for any thought you have about a person of another race, "Is this idea being affected by some unconscious racism I might have? Am I being as objective about this as I think I am?"
It's hard but not impossible to train yourself to the mindset of second-guessing your ideas about people and subjecting them to a bit of fact-checking.
This from MT and Justinian is right. And it can be incorporated into processes and policies. For example, before a recruitment panel begin to deliberate on the final choice between candidates, the Chair can explicitly remind the panel members that numerous studies indicate unconscious bias operates in recruitment, and that everyone on the panel is encouraged to challenge any indications of such bias in the decision-making.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But we don't have to be controlled by those instincts, that subconscious fear of strangers and strangeness. We have found a better way. The prejudiced instincts can be controlled.
Agreed with the addendum of One cannot control what one has not acknowledged.
True. That doesn't just apply to racist tendencies. But it 's not straightforward. Some folks are ignorant of needs for greater conscious self control. Some folks consciously deny the need! "I'm entitled to my own opinion." And others pretend to opinions which are not there own for social reasons. "Well, you can't really say that these days, but if truth be told ...."
This stuff about having God's law written on our hearts leads us into complex territory. Self deception and overt deception are more common than we are often prepared to admit. Seeking to live honestly and with integrity gives us a lifelong project. Within which, treating others decently and with respect has a central place.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
racialism: attributing qualities to people because of race (and not because of your experience with those individuals). I think everyone does this, and I think reaches the point of influencing speech and behavior, even if slightly, in everyone.
Why do you think everyone does this? It strikes me as a nonsensical thing to do. Why would I do it? Why would I want to? How could it benefit me?
We all do lots of things that our conscious mind thinks of as nonsensical and that don't benefit us. Short answer: the unconscious mind is lazy and takes shortcuts in assessing situations. And it picks up those shortcuts from what is in the cultural air around it.
Why would not-white children absorb the attitudes described in this post? Yet it seems they do.
Stories about White People.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I don't think the unconscious is lazy - it often acts as a shadow side, that is, containing those wishes and ideas which are normally censored.
In fact, Jung used to joke when he met an apparently saintly person, that their shadow must be thick with dark thoughts.
Well, not necessarily, but there does seem to be a sort of countervailing thing going on.
I think a lot of humour trades on this, as it articulates stuff that we normally put aside.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
racialism: attributing qualities to people because of race (and not because of your experience with those individuals). I think everyone does this, and I think reaches the point of influencing speech and behavior, even if slightly, in everyone.
Why do you think everyone does this? It strikes me as a nonsensical thing to do. Why would I do it? Why would I want to? How could it benefit me?
I don't get it. We seem to be agreed that doing this is obviously stupid and wrong, and I've asserted (without any apparent disagreement) that there's nothing about it that would make it remotely tempting. Why would you assume that we all do it? I certainly don't.
I don't think all racialist thinking, and even actions motivated by them, are wrong. I already listed affirmative action, as long as it does not become a quota system, as an example. Examples of actions that I catch myself doing based on racialist thinking:
-when walking into the home of an East Asian family, even if I know nothing about the family, their ancestry, or their culture, I am more likely to ask if I should remove my shoes than I am in any other household.
-in a group discussion, I am less likely to interrupt or to respond abruptly to a comment made by someone who is black or Hispanic than I am to a comment by someone who is white or East Asian. I am more likely to wait until I am sure that that person has said all that they want to say.
-This has not happened yet, but it might in the future: If I become a school history teacher, I would be very careful while discussing about slavery, segregation, and the civil rights movement to African-American students.
Are any of these things bad? They could be in some contexts, but in other contexts, no. I find it hard to believe that anyone does not do things like this in even a slight way. But I acknowledge that it is possible that at least some people do not.
I think we need also to distinguish between race and ethnicity. I believe that "race" as we experience it today, is an invention largely of colonialism, imperialism, and the African slave trade. Did people have biases based on the appearance of other people from far away places with very different skin color or other physical traits long before this? Yes, but not in the same way as we do now.
Ethnic biases have existed as long as human culture has existed, and in-group/out-group prejudice is as old as the human brain, if not older. Slavery has existed, sometimes on a massive scale, in many non-Western societies for much of history. And there have been plenty of oppressive non-Western empires. But the way that any part of the world that has not been in complete isolation for the past several centuries thinks about race has been largely shaped as a social construct by the ideas that took hold in people's minds due to the social interactions associated with Early Modern (ie, starting in about the 1400s) and later globalization (you could maybe trace it back to the Crusades if you want). Globalization is not necessarily a bad thing! But the colonialism, mercantilism, slavery, unequal trade, imperialism, etc., that came with it all helped shape the negative aspects of racial bias - as opposed to ethnic bias - that we have today.
It was throuhg these processes that Sub-Saran Africans started to be seen by others and to see each other as sharing things in common. The same is true of Native Americans, East Asians, South Asians, Australian Aboriginals, Pacific Islanders, etc., and of Europeans. The notion of "progress" in Christianizing, civilizing, industrializing, democratizing, and opening up to trade of the world also was something that was new (expanisve and rapid evangelizing of the Christian, Islamic, and Buddhist faiths had occurred earlier, but were not part of such a deliberate reshaping of the entire inhabited world, aided by modern technology). The great wealth brought to Europe by colonialism, global trade, and slavery also helped shape racial attitudes. In the 19th Century, attempts were made to scientifically codify these racial theories, aided by Romantic nationalism and Social Darwinism. Although those scientific theories are now discredited, we are left with a social construct that even members of oppressed races have trouble thinking outside of.
The fact that racial thinking has not always been this way gives me hope that in the future it may be different for most or all people. But raising children in an environment of relative diversity and tolerance is only a small step towards reaching that future.
If anyone wants to argue that racial thiking like that of today was common in ancient "globalized" societies like the Hellenistic and Roman worlds (or perhaps the Medieval Islamic world or Tang, Song, Yuan, or Early Ming Dynasty China, I would be interested, but I still think the concept of race that has existed since the Early Modern Era is unique.
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PaulBC
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# 13712
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Posted
I like to think I am not rascists . But I know I can be . HAve keep working on that .
I have been in a minority position twice 1- my first night at boarding school in Quebec and I had 3 French room mates. Got got transfered next day. Silly me I could have learnt more by having to learn French. For the record this did happen given offical notices, chapel & church alternated 1 week Frennch 1 week English so I lrearnt French, eventually.
My 2nd experiencce was when I was in a town in northern BC over Christmas , went to the local catherdhal and the congregation was well 80% at least Native. They were welcominhg.
I think we all need to be placed in positions where we are not the main group and that can be by race , lamguage , etc Then we may learn to feel dor the"other
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I agree with you about differences in culture, but I'm not so sure about skin colour. When you start to break it down into perceived groupings of colour, suddenly a lot of it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.
And here is one reason why. Colour is nothing more than an adaptation to proximity to the equator. Those groups who have lived long enough in one area developed skin tones to deal with the strength of sunlight. That is all it indicates. Africa has more genetic diversity than any other region. Yet Black is phenotype which is supposed to imply characteristics.
The reason colour groupings do not hold to scrutiny is because they are not valid indications of anything other than the ability of one's skin to deal with solar radiation.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Self deception and overt deception are more common than we are often prepared to admit. Seeking to live honestly and with integrity gives us a lifelong project.
Effort.ISTM, this is also a key to a fair percentage of failed relationships of any kind.
[ 14. December 2013, 05:56: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Talking of the NE. As Terry said in Whatever Happened To The Likely Lads, "It's not that I'm racist. I don't even like the people in the next street much.".
To damn right Martin .
As a life-long SW England dweller, whose experience of racial integration is next to nil, I have nevertheless observed in the UK tribalism and hostilities between indigenous whites that seemed to put racially motivated violence in the shade.
Everything from UK-wide 70s and 80s football hooliganism to village disco feuds where I lived flourished quite happily in the absence of racism .
The odd times I've witnessed (non-violent)racism in these parts is when people are on an anger-trip over something else.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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IconiumBound
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# 754
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Rolyn
Colour is nothing more than an adaptation to proximity to the equator. Those groups who have lived long enough in one area developed skin tones to deal with the strength of sunlight. That is all it indicates. Africa has more genetic diversity than any other region. Yet Black is phenotype which is supposed to imply characteristics.
The reason colour groupings do not hold to scrutiny is because they are not valid indications of anything other than the ability of one's skin to deal with solar radiation.
But colour is one of the primary factors in prejudice. In Asian societies there is widespread use of skin lightners or bleachers; not to look "white" but to look like a higher class of Asians.
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
quote:
originally posted by Rolyn
Colour is nothing more than an adaptation to proximity to the equator. Those groups who have lived long enough in one area developed skin tones to deal with the strength of sunlight. That is all it indicates. Africa has more genetic diversity than any other region. Yet Black is phenotype which is supposed to imply characteristics.
The reason colour groupings do not hold to scrutiny is because they are not valid indications of anything other than the ability of one's skin to deal with solar radiation.
But colour is one of the primary factors in prejudice. In Asian societies there is widespread use of skin lightners or bleachers; not to look "white" but to look like a higher class of Asians.
I have also noticed how in particularly Japanese (but also in some Chinese) comics and animation, the heroic, attractive, ad cute childish characters appear Western (even if they are ethnically Asian in the plot) while the foolish, brutish, and stock comedy characters appear Asian. Not a hard-fast rule but something you see pretty often.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
quote:
originally posted by Rolyn
Colour is nothing more than an adaptation to proximity to the equator. Those groups who have lived long enough in one area developed skin tones to deal with the strength of sunlight. That is all it indicates. Africa has more genetic diversity than any other region. Yet Black is phenotype which is supposed to imply characteristics.
The reason colour groupings do not hold to scrutiny is because they are not valid indications of anything other than the ability of one's skin to deal with solar radiation.
But colour is one of the primary factors in prejudice. In Asian societies there is widespread use of skin lightners or bleachers; not to look "white" but to look like a higher class of Asians.
Colour is the readiest identifier, the most difficult o hide. But truly means the least even if there were truly "races" or if phenotype meant anything.
BTW, that was my post, not rolyn's.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, that was my post, not rolyn's.
Thanks for pointing that out lilBudda . A good post though and one with which I would concur .
Slightly tangential I know, but one fascinating thing with internet forums is that one does not know, (unless explicitly stated), who is black, white, yellow or whatever . Therefore without any visual the stereotype cannot be made, thus proving that we are all fundamentally the same .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
In contrast, both of them were clearly aware, at least since they could talk, that boys and girls were different categories, and felt a solidarity with their own gender. Sexual distinction seems to me to be far more deeply ingrained than racial.
I would agree with that but with the caveat that my daughter would not accept gender as an assessment of worth. We took her to Hever Castle a few years ago and she struggled to understand why Henry VIII thought a male heir would be so important because she had never experienced the idea that boys are more important than girls.
She is an only child so most of the credit for this probably lies with her nursery and primary school!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
One thing that bothers me is when I am personally upset or offended by people behaving in their minority ethnic/ cultural manner.
Two examples: Being touched up by a waiter in a Druze restaurant and saying nothing out of (1)surprise , (2)after a quick look round and realising I was the only woman in the place and (3) he seemed to be a relative of the owners.
The other example was just recently when my pets' graves were callously bulldozed over by an Arab work gang without even stopping to ask. (The person in charge of them on this job was my partner actually and he had specifically said he wanted to see them before they started, partly to see what the situation of the pets' graves would be so we could remove them. Especially as the cat had only just died and would not have decomposed)
Now I am as inter-faith-y-,lefty and peace-y as you get; but I was really distressed for days by both these things. Does that make me racist? I am still asking myself.
I know in my head that non-Druze women are "fair game" for Druze men, I know that Muslim graves aren't named and pets are virtually non-existent . But I certainly didn't find it easy to cope with these things that happened to me personally.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Colour is the readiest identifier, the most difficult to hide. But truly means the least
Yes it's an obvious identifier. But what it means in many places is someone not from around here. Whether it's a "white" face in China or a "black" face in Ireland, it says "non-indigenous person here, who is thus more than averagely likely to
- be difficult to communicate with
- not share my ideas of the right way to behave"
Where there is a history of a non-indigenous group having low socio-economic status, then (to the extent that people tend to take after their parents) it is also a marker of above-average likelihood of being of low socio-economic status.
What is rightly described as stupid is the act of persisting in thinking that a person has characteristics suggested by their skin colour in the face of evidence to the contrary.
What is rightly described as something that everybody does is being aware of these indications and being influenced by them in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. I suggest that we all like to know where we stand relative to others, and tend to form expectations based on whatever information is available.
Depending on how you use the words "racism" and "racist", it may or may not be the case that everyone is racist and may or may not be the case that racism is an evil.
I tend to use these words in a narrow sense, and therefore see racism as a clear evil of which not many people are guilty. I have no particular beef with those who use these words to mean something much broader and less harmful, so long as they're clear about their usage.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Examples of actions that I catch myself doing based on racialist thinking:
-when walking into the home of an East Asian family, even if I know nothing about the family, their ancestry, or their culture, I am more likely to ask if I should remove my shoes than I am in any other household.
-in a group discussion, I am less likely to interrupt or to respond abruptly to a comment made by someone who is black or Hispanic than I am to a comment by someone who is white or East Asian. I am more likely to wait until I am sure that that person has said all that they want to say.
-This has not happened yet, but it might in the future: If I become a school history teacher, I would be very careful while discussing about slavery, segregation, and the civil rights movement to African-American students.
Are any of these things bad?
I don't know why you class any of those as 'racialist'. It doesn't look to me as if you are judging anyone or attributing characteristics to them based on race, but rather that given what you know of your own and other cultures, you're trying to be considerate and not give offence. How succcessfully, I couldn't say.
Presumably, you'd try to be similarly considerate about giving offence when race wasn't an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Now I am as inter-faith-y-,lefty and peace-y as you get; but I was really distressed for days by both these things. Does that make me racist? I am still asking myself.
No, of course not. It's the opposite situation to stonespring's. Unlike him, these people were not being sensitive to cultural differences between them and you, and acted in ways that in your culture showed profound disrespect. How culpable that was depends on how clearly they ought to have known this. Their race/culture is completely irrelevant to the harm done to you - you'd have been as much or more hurt by deliberate assault and vandalism from a white person. Why the hell would you accuse yourself of racism because the offender in each case wasn't white?
quote:
I know in my head that non-Druze women are "fair game" for Druze men
That's the closest thing you've said to a racist comment (and I suspect it's shorthand for "I'm told that Druze culture does not so clearly condemn this sort of behaviour as mine does", which isn't necessarily racist, and may be true, rather than "All Druze men are abusive arseholes", which would be racist, and not safe to conclude from the actions of one Druze man).
I don't know anything about Druze culture. I suppose it is possible that a human culture exists in which men have no social or moral inhibitions about casual sexual assaults on women of other ethnicities. What is not at all likely, is that a man from that culture could make a living as a waiter catering to those other ethnicities, and not learn that this is an issue on which there are other points of view. The man ought therefore to have known better, his cultural background is not a complete excuse, and it is not at all racist to be offended by him.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Thanks.
Yes, as a younger feminist I was known to jump to conclusions about men in general irrespective of race. Should have done it this time. But part of the reason we went to eat there was to put some money into a small minority business. Which of course was all in my head and mattered not one bit to anyone else.
It's very sobering when these situations arise. You realise it doesn't matter at all whose side you're on...you are still subject to the treatment of any member of your gender, race, etc
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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