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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Duck Dynasty/Phil Robertson
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Until about 30 minutes ago I was blissfully ignorant of this whole thing. Then an American friend posted something supportive of DD/PR on his Facebook page, I did some minor digging, posted a mild comment, and now I suspect we're about to have a Large Disagreement ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Is there anyone here who gives a shit on either side who can point up some reasonable summaries so I don't have to wade through reams of bile just to make sure I don't gob off from a position of ignorance. Hell, if necessary I'll do my own research, but opinions filtered through brains I already know and appreciate are more helpful than the random outpourings of the t'InterWebTubes.
AFAICS a largely stereotypical (to a non-USA viewer) right-wing huntin'shootin'fishin'guns4Jesus chap said some entirely stereotypical things about sin and homosexuality, and has been suspended from his TV show pro tem. This has kicked up a storm amongst the Righteously Indignant, who are confusing freedom of speech with freedom from consequences.
Apparently my woolly liberal take on this is missing the point that this is part of a concerted campaign to stop all right-thinking people from voicing any kind of 'traditional' viewpoint without being in fear of their livelihoods for simply making a reasonable statement of personal belief. Me, I smell non sequitur and hysteria, but ...
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
As a pro-LGBT rights gay man, I think saying that homosexuality is sinful should not get someone suspended from a reality TV show where his traditional Christian beliefs have been highlighted thorughout the show (and when, outside the show, he has made public his beliefs in the immorality of homosexuality).
I think where he crossed the line is in the way he said homosexuality is sinful.
Here is a description of the statement that got him in trouble (he said the statement in an interview for GQ magazine):
http://lauraturner.religionnews.com/2013/12/18/duck-dynastys-phil-robinson-must-fly-coop-antigay-remarks/
quote:
It’s been a bumpy day for Phil Robertson, star of Duck Dynasty and paterfamilias of the family behind Duck Commander, a multimillion dollar company that produces duck-hunting merchandise. In an interview for January’s GQ, the reporter asked Robertson about his view of sin: “’Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men.’” His other remarks were even more graphic, suggesting that “a vagina—as a man—would be more desirable than a man’s anus,” but “sin…[is] just not logical.”
Here is the Duck Dynasty family's statement in response to Phil Robertson's suspension, posted on their company website:
http://duckcommander.com/news/robertson-family-offical-statement
quote:
We want to thank all of you for your prayers and support. The family has spent much time in prayer since learning of A&E's decision. We want you to know that first and foremost we are a family rooted in our faith in God and our belief that the Bible is His word. While some of Phil’s unfiltered comments to the reporter were coarse, his beliefs are grounded in the teachings of the Bible. Phil is a Godly man who follows what the Bible says are the greatest commandments: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Phil would never incite or encourage hate.We are disappointed that Phil has been placed on hiatus for expressing his faith, which is his constitutionally protected right. We have had a successful working relationship with A&E but, as a family, we cannot imagine the show going forward without our patriarch at the helm. We are in discussions with A&E to see what that means for the future of Duck Dynasty. Again, thank you for your continued support of our family.
There was some other quote from Robinson after the interview about how he believes what he believes about homosexuality and sin but that he loves gay people, wishes no harm to them, etc. I can't find it though.
Prior to becoming a successful businessman, he was a heave drinker, drug user, adulterer, etc. Then he embraced (conservative) Evangelical Christianity and that helped him live on the straight and narrow. In way he was referring to the life of sin that he had left (although he was not saying that he had ever had gay sex or engaged in bestiality).
People who believe homosexuality is sinful need to learn that you can't mention homosexuality and bestiality in the same breath as if they are in the same category of sin or as if engaging in one puts one on a slippery slope to engaging in the other. Bestiality involves having sex with an animaal that cannot give adult human consent and is inherently abusive, no matter what you may think is going on inside an animal's head. You can't compare it to consensual gay sex among adults and expect gays not to be offended. There is no logical connection between disagreeing that only man-woman sex is moral, or that only men and woman can be married, and thinking that human-animal sex is moral. They are not even points on the same spectrum of sexual liberalism.
As for comparing homosexuality to promiscuity and adultery - you might think that if a person disagrees with a literal reading of the Bible about homosexuality that that person could very easily also disagree with traditional teachings on marital fidelity and monogamy. Again, the two are unrelated. Some gays and bi people cheat on their partners, just like many straights do. It is wrong no matter who does it. Other gays and bi people sleep around or are openly non-monogamous in their relationships, just like many straights do. Christians and atheists both disagree aomg each other about exactly what constitutes immoral promiscuity and immoral non-monogamy. I think that many people, especially people who have found something like a particular form of religion (or, for that matter, the Twelve Steps) that helped them recover from a broken life, feel that any arguments that different moral frameworks work for different people (at least with regards to honest consensual sex among adults) are dangerous not only to the people engaging in what they disapprove of, but to themselves because it threatens their sense of security in their recovery.
Also, homosexuality is not defined by anal sex - lots of gays don't do it. And if anal sex is so illogical, there must be a lot of illogical straight people out there.
For all these reasons, what he said was not only wrong, but offensive. It implied that homosexuality was abusive like bestiality, harmful to human relationships like adultery, and irresponsible like promiscuity. It also implied that homosexuality is a warped mental state (ie, the result of a mind distorted by sin and not because of the way someone's brain is inherently wired) and unfairly associated homosexuality with a prefixation on sex - and particularly anal sex.
For these reasons, it makes sense to suspend him. If he apologizes - not for believing homosexuality is immoral, but for saying things that were offensive in the ways I described above - he should be allowed back on the show.
This has nothing to do with the law. A&E is doing it because it predicts the negative effect on its profits from the anger among LGBT people and their allies is greater than the positive effect on its profits from social conservatives who watch the show to support Robertson. A&E has a moral duty (but not a legal one) to not give a louspeaker to views that are demeaning to LGBT people. (Again, I am differentiating Robertson's statements with a general statement saying homosexual acts are sinful.) That is why the suspension makes sense.
Finally, I should add that the grass roots level of support for Robertson (not the Fox News level of support) comes from the same Southern American pride in speaking emotionally and-not-necessarily rationally, even in the public sphere. It is the same kind of support that swelled up for Paula Deen. Yes, many people feel they have a right to their prejudices. But other people who acknowledge that racism and homophobia are wrong think that people should be able to mouth off from time to time and be forgiven without having to make some huge public penance. Some parts of the US take pride in people who speak without a politically correct filter. You see similar attitudes among people defending sermons from some particularly enthusiastic African American and white southern preachers. As the husband of an Australian I can say that Australia definitely has a culture that values people airing their unvarnished opinions, even if those are opinions that on deeper reflection a person would admit are not entirely true.
The morally correct way of speaking publicly is somewhere between obsessive political correctness and the cultures that reflexively defend "telling it like it is" and "keeping it real." Admitting that something is offensive when it is and apologizing for it after the fact, though, is something we should all agree is necessary.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Your take on this is correct IMO. The man also made some terribly racist, retrograde remarks, saying that African Americans were better off before the Civil Rights Movement and the end of Jim Crow. IMO, whilst the anti-gay remarks are getting the bulk of attention, his racist remarks would have resulted in the same punitive action from the network that produces and broadcasts this stupid show, as well any such public expressions of bigotry should have done, irrespective of the group in reference to whom they were made.
This case has got squat to do with the constitutional freedom of expression, and all to do with the revulsion that the bulk of American society feels toward such expressions of homophobia and racism, and in turn the predictable consequences that one may incur from a private/corporate employer that relies on public goodwill and the patronage of its advertisers (who themselves depend upon public approval).
*Cross-posted with Stonespring, and directed in response to the OP.
BTW, I never heard of this show before the recent controversy erupted.
[ 20. December 2013, 14:43: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Thanks for that very full response - it accords with what I'd deduced. Now I just need to work out if I have the energy to get into it with my chum, who does somewhat fit the conservative southern States profile in many (but not all) ways.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Here's a column going in to greater depth about the implications of Phil Robertson's nostalgia for Segregation-Era Louisiana, with a brief side trip into how it's not entirely unrelated to his homophobia.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Here's a column going in to greater depth about the implications of Phil Robertson's nostalgia for Segregation-Era Louisiana, with a brief side trip into how it's not entirely unrelated to his homophobia.
One comment in the column you reference, that I take odds with.
quote:
ignorance is no great sin
Ignorance helps perpetuate real problems. ISTM, this is the real problem with Robertson's comments.
[ 20. December 2013, 15:55: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
BTW, I never heard of this show before the recent controversy erupted.
Walk into any Walmart in a rural area (even in upstate NY) and the show's merchandise will be everywhere. It is a cash cow and A&E can't afford to let its image be tarnished (not sure how A&E will handle the backlash in defense of Phil Robertson, though).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Interesting take on this controversy, evangelicalism (the Robertson family are evangelical rockstars), and controversy:
http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2013/12/20/evangelicalism-needs-controversies-like-duck-dynasty/
I also put this link on the purg evangelicalism: future or lack thereof thread.
I was not aware of his nostalgia for segregation. Was that aired on the show? Did he make comments like that in an interview with a general-audience magazine? I think he definitely should have been suspended for those comments if he had not immediately apologized and said they were wrong. Did A&E think no one would notice the race-related comments based on the audience they were said to?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was not aware of his nostalgia for segregation. Was that aired on the show? Did he make comments like that in an interview with a general-audience magazine?
All the controversial quotes come from an interview with GQ. One of the interesting questions is how heavily edited is the "reality" show Duck Dynasty? It seems unlikely similarly homophobic or pro-segregation comments weren't made during the (thus far) four season run of the show. It would be very interesting to see what ended up on A&E's cutting room floor.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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BessLane
Shipmate
# 15176
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Posted
This whole tempest in a sweet-tea pot hits particularly hard here (rural, red-neck Tennessee). I will say up front, I was a big fan of Phil Robertson. I own all of his duck hunting videos. I liked and watched the show Duck Dynasty. I own some of their merchandise. I am truly upset that someone I had admired should show himself to be such a bigotted, rascist jerk.
That being said, I'm not at all surprised by his remarks, I know his type. I live with, work with and hunt with people who think and speak exactly the same way he does. As was said above, I'm wondering what got left on the cutting room floor. I also wonder why the hell A&E allowed him to do this interview without pre-vetting the questions and/or making sure he had a handler with him.
The "Rush is Right" crowd herebouts wants to rattle on about freedom of speech, and constitutional rights without any understanding of what the first ammendment acutally says. Conversations at the bar have gotten fairly heated until I finally declared a ban on Phil discussions. Of course, these are the same people who began seriously stock-piling weapons and ammo last year and who believe that the Tea Party is just a touch too liberal. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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It's all on me and I won't tell it.
formerly BessHiggs
Posts: 1388 | From: Yorkville, TN | Registered: Sep 2009
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Interesting take on this controversy, evangelicalism (the Robertson family are evangelical rockstars), and controversy:
http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2013/12/20/evangelicalism-needs-controversies-like-duck-dynasty/
Thanks for sharing that, stonespring. The author has come to the same conclusion that I reached some while back: homosexuality (and other culture war issues) are essentially shibboleths.
quote:
I was not aware of his nostalgia for segregation. Was that aired on the show? Did he make comments like that in an interview with a general-audience magazine? I think he definitely should have been suspended for those comments if he had not immediately apologized and said they were wrong.
He has not apologized for anything that he has said, as far as I know. Not for his racist remarks, and not for the implication that homosexuality leads to bestiality.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
In my part of the country (flyover Michigan) saying anything bad about the Robertsons might well get you a .22 shoved into your face...I had to laugh, though, when I walked into a local pet supply/sporting goods store and saw Duck Dynasty products being aggressively marketed all over the place...at 40 percent off. So whatever support Phil et al have from their constituency, retailers as well as A&E seem to understand that the bloom is off the rose of that particular franchise.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Someone on Facebook provided a link to a good commentary on this, which was my introduction to what was going on (not surprisingly this isn't really a news item well outside of Duck Dynasty broadcast range).
It had to do with the comparison made between Robertson and Pope Francis.
https://benirwin.wordpress.com/2013/12/20/phil-robertson-and-pope-francis/
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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