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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jesus Never Chatted.
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Cranford
Apprentice
# 17936
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Posted
Webster's Dictionary, "Chat. n. Light, informal talk."
Far from being an argument from silence as Scripture has no examples of Jesus ever chatting, God graciously has provided His Commands and expressed imperatives within Scripture to demonstrate this facet of Jesus' self disclosure.
1.) Matthew 12:36, "I [Jesus] say to you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement."
2.) Proverbs 19:19, "In the multitude of words there wants not sin; but he that refrains his lips is wise."
3.) 1 Peter 4:11. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God."
4.) James 1:19, "Let every man be swift to hear, slow to s peak."
5.) Titus 2:2-6 specifies, "Aged men," "Aged women," "Young women," and "Young men" to be "sober."
6.) Paul in 1Corinthians 4:20, "The kingdom of God us not in word but in power."
7.) Ecclesiastes 5:2, "Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon Earth: therefore let thy words be few."
Jesus is always recorded to have spoken concisely upon any hiven issue, and always germanely to the agenda of The Father. Jesus never spoke His whole mind upon any topic, and only spoke that which was necessary to impel his listeners to make their own cognitive apprehension of The Kingdom and to enact their own obedience to God through Jesus' Commands. Jesus did not waste one word.
Posts: 36 | From: Pacifica. | Registered: Dec 2013
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Cranford
Apprentice
# 17936
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cranford:
Webster's Dictionary, "Chat. n. Light, informal talk."
Far from being an argument from silence as Scripture has no examples of Jesus ever chatting, God graciously has provided His Commands and expressed imperatives within Scripture to demonstrate this facet of Jesus' self disclosure.
1.) Matthew 12:36, "I [Jesus] say to you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement."
2.) Proverbs 19:19, "In the multitude of words there wants not sin; but he that refrains his lips is wise."
3.) 1 Peter 4:11. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God."
4.) James 1:19, "Let every man be swift to hear, slow to s peak."
5.) Titus 2:2-6 specifies, "Aged men," "Aged women," "Young women," and "Young men" to be "sober."
6.) Paul in 1Corinthians 4:20, "The kingdom of God us not in word but in power."
7.) Ecclesiastes 5:2, "Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon Earth: therefore let thy words be few."
Jesus is always recorded to have spoken concisely upon any given topic, and always to have spoken germanely to the agenda of The Father. Jesus never spoke His whole mind upon any topic, and only spoke that which was necessary to impel his listeners to make their own cognitive apprehension of The Kingdom and to enact their own obedience to God through Jesus' Commands. Jesus did not waste one word.
Posts: 36 | From: Pacifica. | Registered: Dec 2013
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Cranford
Apprentice
# 17936
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Posted
The following announcement is from The Command Bridge: "Puuu-WEEEEE-uu-WEEP!! (Boswain's Pipe) ALL HANDS STAND TO! THE CAPTAIN WILL NOW SPEAK!"
Posts: 36 | From: Pacifica. | Registered: Dec 2013
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Cranford
Apprentice
# 17936
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Posted
The following is for all hands:
Posts: 36 | From: Pacifica. | Registered: Dec 2013
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Cranford, this is a board for discussion of Biblical texts and themes. Your opening post does not indicate a topic or question for discussion. If you do not come up with something with which you want to engage others (as opposed to just listing assertions), the thread will be closed.
As to your subsequent posts, I have no idea what you are trying to convey. If nonsensical posts continue, that will be grounds for closing the thread as well.
Mamacita, Kerygmania Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I will dare to comment.
A common complaint against Jesus was that he liked to eat and drink with his friends, Pharisees, tax collectors, and apparently just about anyone at hand. He seems to have not been an overly sober, perpetually serious individual. At the wedding in Cana, the wine runs out and Mary prevails upon Jesus to provide more wine, and he does.
It seems unlikely to me that Jesus was such a sociable person and at the same time did not "chat".
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
He doodled in the dust. With a lot more intelligibility I suspect than some recent doodling around the scuppers here.
By and large, so I don't get personal (because we don't need exhaustive records to know that would make the baby Jesus cry), can I just point out that the gospel records were not a compendium of the Boss's table talk, but a carefully crafted anamnesis of the important things he said?
I don't even know if he asked little brother James to pass the salt, because, basically it's about as important as Shakespeare's farts.
[ 27. December 2013, 20:18: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The gospels are not, nor do they claim to be, an exhaustive word-by-word recording of everything Jesus Christ ever said. They are not journalistic transcripts.
The gospels are carefully crafted documents whose purpose is to convey the message that Jesus is the Messiah, the promised Savior. The material included in the gospels was mindfully put there by authors and redactors for that purpose.
If the OP is truly interested in understanding the Gospels as a unique literary genre, I'd direct him/her to Fortress Introduction to the Gospels by Mark Allan Powell (Fortress Press), or even to any decent study Bible like the Oxford or Interpreter's. The author of the cited book is a Bible scholar, a MOTR Lutheran who has a very easy, layperson-friendly writing style, and I'd recommend it to anyone interested in the "whys" of the Gospel texts.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The Gospels never once mention that Jesus pissed or shat. From this we can conclude .... nothing about Jesus. If anything, that the gospel writers didn't think it was important or necessary to say anything about it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'll go along with Cranford's point in so much as agreeing that Jesus did seem to be against "idle" talk. If by that he only meant gossip and dirty jokes, or anything the least bit frivolous, I don't know.
It's my guess that he made polite conversation at social functions but probably did bring the subject back to his message. He always seemed very aware that his time on earth was short and that he had vital things to teach us. I'm thinking of the time he visited Lazarus and admonished Martha for bustling around with food and drink, while her sister Mary, listening intently to Jesus as he talked, was praised for making a better choice.
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
This is like suggesting that a 2-minute television report of the day's evidence in a court case means that only 2 minutes worth of evidence was given.
Because the gospels quite often indicate timeframes - saying that something happened on a particular day, and then something else happened the following day or a later day.
If you take this literally as being all that Jesus ever said, you're basically saying that Jesus was a taciturn grump who maybe spoke a few sentences most days and frankly didn't do much at all a lot of the time.
The logic is entirely fallacious.
[ 28. December 2013, 01:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
All participants please read.
Kelly Alves
Admin
Carry on with the discussion if you feel it is interesting, but be advised that Cranford will not be able to answer direct questions.
[ 28. December 2013, 03:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'll go along with Cranford's point in so much as agreeing that Jesus did seem to be against "idle" talk. If by that he only meant gossip and dirty jokes, or anything the least bit frivolous, I don't know.
I agree that he was against gossip; that is clearly wrong. As far as dirty jokes are concerned, you have to define 'dirty jokes'. I'm sure he was against jokes that degraded anyone. I'm not sure he would have objected to jokes with explicit sexual references. I think this would depend on how the culture felt about them.
I don't think he believed that people should never be frivolous. There are certain areas where no one should be frivolous, but everyone needs to indulge in light-hearted activities part of the time. He was human.
Moo
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Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I don't think he believed that people should never be frivolous. There are certain areas where no one should be frivolous, but everyone needs to indulge in light-hearted activities part of the time. He was human.
And, as we have discussed on threads before, there is evidence in the Gospels that Jesus had a sense of humor. Take the marriage at Cana. Awkward social situation, they ran out of wine. Jesus provides them with more--but he decides not to make it just any wine, but a better vintage than was being served. Result: the host gets gently teased about saving the best for last. Basically, Jesus pulled a prank. And it was a good prank: it hurt nobody and, in fact, was beneficial, but still provided grounds for humor.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
(re the wedding at Cana) But was it a prank, or was it 'if I'm going to turn this water into wine I might as well make it good wine'?
After all, presumably He would have been expected to drink some of it too...
As Dorothy Sayers once said far more eloquently than I could, just because the Gospels don't say he did something doesn't mean he never did. They don't ever mention him smiling, either.
And how anyone could read the gag about the camel going through the eye of the needle and NOT realise it's a joke is beyond me.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
(re the wedding at Cana) But was it a prank, or was it 'if I'm going to turn this water into wine I might as well make it good wine'?
I just think, if God is going to do something, why would he do it half-assedly?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
From the OP: quote:
Jesus is always recorded to have spoken concisely upon any hiven issue, and always germanely to the agenda of The Father. Jesus never spoke His whole mind upon any topic, and only spoke that which was necessary to impel his listeners to make their own cognitive apprehension of The Kingdom and to enact their own obedience to God through Jesus' Commands. Jesus did not waste one word.
I have a picture of a caricature of the grimmest kind of historical Calvinist divine.
My understanding is that Jesus' parables are probably outlines, stories that he told on several/many occasions to different audiences, with details, embellishments, jokes adapted to the situation.
I also have a feeling that when people met Jesus, their faces lit up, their hearts were lighter, their burdens more bearable. And no, I can't point to a single text that gives me this conviction.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote:
I'll go along with Cranford's point in so much as agreeing that Jesus did seem to be against "idle" talk. If by that he only meant gossip and dirty jokes, or anything the least bit frivolous, I don't know.
I don't see where Jesus' being against "anything the least bit frivolous" is supported in the Gospels by anything other than absence of frivolous comments on his part. And absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Again, the Gospels were written with a very specific purpose, and extraneous comments that didn't move forward the purposes of the writers wouldn't have been included. And, anyway, how many biographies or accounts of famous people by their contemporaries include everyday chatter..."So how do you like this weather?", "I think I'm coming down with a cold," "Hey! How's it going? Workin' hard or hardly workin'?", "Ouch -- I just stubbed my toe!", etc.?
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Jesus said that we were going to have to give an account for every idle word we said. I was just trying to define "idle talk," when I said he probably didn't like any talk that was frivolous and I would think that dirty jokes or any kind of jokes for that matter are probably "idle talk."
While it's true that we don't have an account of every word Jesus said I find it hard to believe that he contradicted the things we do have on record.
I've never agreed with the idea that Jesus was a prankster or that he was a party animal because of the water to wine miracle. Wine was about all they had to drink in that country at that time. The wedding feast would have had to end without it and Jesus mother asked for help. I thought he turned the water into wine to please her and to save the host from embarrassment. The host was then praised (not teased) for saving the best wine for last. The idea behind serving poor drink at the end of a party was usually that people wouldn't notice.
I thought the reason Jesus ate and drank with sinners is because he needed to be with them and talk to them to save their souls, not because he loved food and drink.
I'm sure Jesus could see humor in things but I've never seen the slightest evidence that he told jokes as part of his sermons. What's funny about the camel and the needle?
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm sure Jesus could see humor in things but I've never seen the slightest evidence that he told jokes as part of his sermons. What's funny about the camel and the needle?
I cannot think of a specific outspoken joke, but that's also because ancient jokes were differently structured than ours, so I'm not that sure I'd recognize one that clearly. However, I'd say he definitely used humour to strengthen his points. I mean, asking a fisherman to go out and experience the ultimate fishing story - "I totally once pulled up a fish and in its mouth was just the right amount I needed for my taxes for that year!" - is just messing with Peter's mind, really. Amusingly so, though.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I thought the reason Jesus ate and drank with sinners is because he needed to be with them and talk to them to save their souls, not because he loved food and drink.
I'm sure Jesus could see humor in things but I've never seen the slightest evidence that he told jokes as part of his sermons. What's funny about the camel and the needle?
I don't think he 'loved' food and drink, but I'm sure he enjoyed it and thought that some things tasted better than others.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
One of the things that comes across in the Gospels for me is that Jesus was very sociable. He came from a large family ("his mother and brothers and sisters" suggest at least five others in the family), spent a lot of time with a group of disciples, talked to crowds and was often invited to dinners. I'm pretty sure he enjoyed food and drink and a party atmosphere.
He is rarely depicted as being alone in the Gospels, though there is the occasional reference to this, e.g. "leaving the house before dawn to pray" and the others wondering where he'd gone.
The other thing that comes through for me is that he was also pretty much an "outdoors" type who is rarely depicted as being in a house - you find Jesus out in the fields, by the lake, in a boat, under a tree, in the mountains, even in the Temple, but not that often within four walls, and if he is, they are usually someone else's. But that's tangential so I'll stop here.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I do get the impression that Jesus made use of humour. Using Peter as a nickname and then using a pun on the name to talk about building the church, for example. I find it hard to imagine that it was said without at least a smile. Jesus doesn't go in for making fun of people, but he does use the absurd to make his point.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Twilight: quote:
What's funny about the camel and the needle?
Well that's the thing about jokes, isn't it. If you have to explain why, it's not funny any more.
I expect a fair number of the people Jesus was talking to had watched someone else trying to persuade a camel to go through a narrow gateway (or similar). So imagine someone who is stupid enough to think you could get a camel (=Really Big Animal*!) through the eye of a needle (=Really Small Gap!).
I don't really 'get' the Goons' humour, myself.
*with Attitude.
[ 29. December 2013, 13:55: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cranford:
Jesus is always recorded to have spoken concisely upon any hiven issue, and always germanely to the agenda of The Father. Jesus never spoke His whole mind upon any topic, and only spoke that which was necessary to impel his listeners to make their own cognitive apprehension of The Kingdom and to enact their own obedience to God through Jesus' Commands. Jesus did not waste one word.
I think the gospel writers may have something to do with the conciseness of what Jesus had to say given the the fact that everything had to be hand written on either papyrus or parchment. This is a task that was both time consuming and the materials could be expensive so being concise made good sense. I would say that the impression that you have of Jesus was what the writers wanted you to have because that's the purpose of the gospel. To draw conclusions about Jesus' character based on the recorded spoken words alone, in my opinion, can be a mistake.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Suggesting that Jesus was somehow above normal everyday conversation seems to me to be denying Jesus' true humanity. Being offended by the idea of Jesus engaging in everyday human interactions is rather like being offended by the idea that he had bowel movements or sweated in the heat or yelped when he accidentally hit his thumb with his hammer (or for that matter being offended by the idea that he would, like the rest of us, occasionally hit his thumb with his hammer). Again, absence of evidence in Scripture for something Jesus did nor didn't do isn't evidence of absence. The Gospel writers weren't like court reporters jotting down every utterance of Jesus; they were persons sifting through the remembered stories of the faith community, creating texts that they felt conveyed the idea that God was with Jesus in a unique, powerful and salvific way.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
I've always suspected that the line about God knows just how many hairs you've got on your head was directed as someone almost as bald as the Prophet Elisha!
And no, I have no evidence for that!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm not at all offended by the idea of Jesus joking and laughing with friends, I just find it hard to picture. He was human but he also had a sensitivity and awareness of the pain and suffering in the world that was beyond the norm. He was human, but lots of humans have a serious nature.
My doctor is a very sweet, kind young man. When I'm being examined by him I'm usually nervously making jokes and while he smiles kindly he never participates in the silliness but concentrates on what my nurse-practitioner sister-in-law calls, "searching for disease."
That's how I imagine Jesus at a social gathering. Indulgent of the tax collectors' puns and smiling at the soldiers' jokes but always aware that his purpose is to save their souls and that his time with them is short.
When Jesus told Martha (who was preparing food) that her sister (who was listening to him talk) had made the better choice, I think that indicates that he was discussing something important.
It's true that we don't have a record of everything Jesus said. I don't think that gives us the right to create Jesus in our own image or that of our best friend. If we have a record of him saying, "X" about a subject and never mentioning it again, I think the safe thing to believe is that, that is how he feels about it, rather than that he expressed the opposite view on other occasions and we just don't have a record of it.
Jesus made a strong statement against "idle words." Why should we believe he didn't really mean that when we have no evidence to the contrary?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Probably because we all interpret "idle words" differently. Some of us don't consider jokes or humour to be idle words so it doesn't seem like such a contradiction to us.
I think everyone's posts on this thread (including mine now that I've posted) probably display the tendency to want to make Jesus over in our own image.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Well I certainly don't try to make Jesus a reflection of myself. Any group I've ever belonged to, school, work or church has considered me the clown of the bunch, always trying to make people laugh. I don't expect Jesus to be anything like me or any of my friends.
Jesus may have used an occasional play on words and hyperbole to make a point, as in the camel and needle story but that's hardly a Chris Rock delivery.
Okay, if you don't agree with my definition of "idle talk," what's yours?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Jesus may have used an occasional play on words and hyperbole to make a point, as in the camel and needle story but that's hardly a Chris Rock delivery.
And nobody is suggesting that it was. Nobody is suggesting that Jesus was acting like a stand-up comedian or slipping whoopee cushions under people. The concept of Jesus using the so-called "insult humor" (so popular with too many modern comedians) goes totally against the picture of Jesus depicted in the Gospels--but that is not the only way jokes work or the only way humor can be used. I suggest that like many teachers after him, Jesus understood that you can get your point across and make it even more memorable by taking a humorous approach. That does not make his talk "idle" even though funny. He is still teaching and instructing and, if anything, he is making sure the point sticks with his audience by letting them chuckle over it at the same time.
So Jesus warned against idle talk (and, for that matter, idol talk), but it is going too far to conclude that he meant only dry doctoral dissertations are permitted.
Although I have to say that this thread has me wanting to re-read The Name of the Rose again. Wasn't one of the motivating themes of the plot a debate over whether Jesus ever laughed?
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It seems to me that we make Jesus in our own image.
When i first took the blessed sacrament to the sick and housebound, i avoided ALL talk, not just 'idle' talk because i was carrying Jesus with me.
Now I just happen to be an introvert who avoids small talk anyway!
I have come to believe that if Jesus was walking down the road along with me, he'd stop and chat - so I try to stop and chat too.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Although I have to say that this thread has me wanting to re-read The Name of the Rose again. Wasn't one of the motivating themes of the plot a debate over whether Jesus ever laughed?
Yes - "Laughter is a devilish wind which deforms the lineaments of the face and makes men look like monkeys." The venerable Jorge goes on to say that there is no evidence in the Gospels that Jesus ever laughed, and consequently no monk should either; it shows a lack of fear, and that leads to a lack of respect for God.
I'm not quite sure how he arrived at that conclusion, but it is actually the crux of the plot, as you rightly say.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Moo: quote:
I agree that he was against gossip; that is clearly wrong.
I was told that a "gossip" originally meant a concerned neighbour, the sort of person who notices if an old lady isn't taking her milk in. That was in a sermon, so it must be true. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
According to the OED: " One who has contracted spiritual affinity with another by acting as a sponsor at a baptism." From OE godsib (1014). Not until 1811 does it become "idle talk; trifling or groundless rumour; tittle-tattle"...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I always reckoned Jesus chatted with his family and other people, for many years. The stuff we have in the Bible is much more He was teaching many people.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I was told once that Jesus would never have laughed or joked simply because he was 'a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.'
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
I can't imagine that such a misery was as attractive to people - men, women and children - as Jesus appears to have been. Who'd have wanted to listen to him if he was like that?
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I can't imagine that such a misery was as attractive to people - men, women and children - as Jesus appears to have been. Who'd have wanted to listen to him if he was like that?
People in pain? Men who did back breaking labor with blistered hands, women who had watched several children die in childhood, people whose sisters were taken against their will by powerful men and whose brothers were lepers or "possessed by demons." Maybe you'll say they needed a good laugh, but I think, in their place, I would be more drawn to a man with a trace of sadness and empathy in his eyes.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I can't imagine that such a misery was as attractive to people - men, women and children - as Jesus appears to have been. Who'd have wanted to listen to him if he was like that?
People in pain? Men who did back breaking labor with blistered hands, women who had watched several children die in childhood, people whose sisters were taken against their will by powerful men and whose brothers were lepers or "possessed by demons." Maybe you'll say they needed a good laugh, but I think, in their place, I would be more drawn to a man with a trace of sadness and empathy in his eyes.
Yeah, but children wouldn't have clambered all over a miserable sod however much their mothers tried to encourage them to sit on his lap for a blessing.
You'll be saying next that he never cast a shadow and actually walked 2 and a half inches above the ground!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I don't remember anything in the Gospels about Jesus having a shadow...
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
People in pain? Men who did back breaking labor with blistered hands, women who had watched several children die in childhood, people whose sisters were taken against their will by powerful men and whose brothers were lepers or "possessed by demons." Maybe you'll say they needed a good laugh, but I think, in their place, I would be more drawn to a man with a trace of sadness and empathy in his eyes.
False dichotomy. It is often those well-acquainted with grief who can laugh the most heartily, because they need the healing laughter brings.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And of course, there nothing unusual about those who are compassionate in their support of those in need being also those who sing with the joyful.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
People in pain? Men who did back breaking labor with blistered hands, women who had watched several children die in childhood, people whose sisters were taken against their will by powerful men and whose brothers were lepers or "possessed by demons." Maybe you'll say they needed a good laugh, but I think, in their place, I would be more drawn to a man with a trace of sadness and empathy in his eyes.
False dichotomy. It is often those well-acquainted with grief who can laugh the most heartily, because they need the healing laughter brings.
Well, quite. And if Jesus never laughed or chatted or just acted like a normal person once in a while then he wasn't really human.
Years ago I saw Alec McCowen's one-man show of Mark's gospel. It was illuminating, brilliant and funny. By bringing the words to life he brought a freshness, authority and humour to them. Much like I imagine Jesus did.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
People in pain? Men who did back breaking labor with blistered hands, women who had watched several children die in childhood, people whose sisters were taken against their will by powerful men and whose brothers were lepers or "possessed by demons." Maybe you'll say they needed a good laugh, but I think, in their place, I would be more drawn to a man with a trace of sadness and empathy in his eyes.
False dichotomy. It is often those well-acquainted with grief who can laugh the most heartily, because they need the healing laughter brings.
I don't see the false dichotomy. The question was asked as to who would want to listen to a sorrowful person and I suggested some who might. I didn't say that a sad countenance was what everyone would be attracted to at all times. There are many stages of grief.
[Anecdote warning] I once belonged to a support group of family members of the mentally ill. Occasionally I would laugh at something pertaining to our situation as that is my own personality and my own tendency to ease stress by "finding the funny" in any situation. The rest of the group was so not ready for that. I learned to stifle myself. I knew it was better to err on the side of being boring than to offend hurting people.
I'm not saying I don't think Jesus would ever laugh at something comical or that he didn't smile, just that I don't picture him as a raucous, laughing party animal who made up jokes for fun.
Children wouldn't be attracted to someone not funny? Weren't they attracted to Mr. Rogers? He was always gentle and quiet, never loud or jokey. For every child who loves a clown there's another who is frightened of them. I think children were attracted to Jesus because of his warmth and gentleness, not because he was turning cartwheels.
I agree Jesus was fully human but he was the best human. There's nothing supernatural about someone who is constantly caring and kind. If I have known gentle people who were too concerned with helping others to do a lot of laughing, why couldn't Jesus be that way?
I don't think that because Jesus was human, he had to be like me or the crowd down at the pub. I think he might have been more like Mother Teresa and Thomas Merton, minus any flaws they may have had.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Reading this thread after reading the December book club pick of Testament of Mary by Colm Toibin, I wonder if we really can say anything from the Gospels.
Certainly, if we're going to give more weight to the imagination of a 21st Century fiction writer than we do to people who were writing from the standpoint of just a few generations away from the actual events, then we won't know what to believe.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No, Twilight, that's misunderstanding my point, which was that the Jesus we see in the Gospels is not a full picture, but limited. What we are doing, as did Colm Toibin in his book, is clothing those sketchy details with our imaginations. Colm Toibin embeds the Gospel stories in his book.
The point I was trying to make was that we have so little detail that any Jesus we envisage will be made up of slim details and a lot of imagination.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
No, Twilight, that's misunderstanding my point, which was that the Jesus we see in the Gospels is not a full picture, but limited. What we are doing, as did Colm Toibin in his book, is clothing those sketchy details with our imaginations.
I fully agree that what we see in the gospels is very limited but I think clothing those details with out imaginations is very, very dangerous. The average young person I encounter knows next to nothing about Christianity. They think Easter is God's birthday and they all had eggs and ham to celebrate. But they watch the latest "Bible based," movies and take them as absolute gospel. They'll be quick to tell you, with great seriousness, that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had lots of kids.
With all these books making the best sellers lists, followed by hit movies from the screenplays, I think it's just a matter of time before the entire religion is debunked in the minds of the masses, through Hollywood's version of the truth.
Why not write a novel called something like, "The Priests' Lesser Scribe." All about a scribe in the Sanhedrin who can't get ahead and learns to hate his hypocritical superiors. To relieve his frustration he begins to write a story about a Messiah who comes along and blows the priests out of the water in every debate. He has magical powers and great charisma. He gets followers from all classes and goes on to make fools of everyone in power until his tragic, but mystical, death.
The Lesser Scribe enjoys this fantasy and writes it in several different voices. As the years pass, he continues the story into a sequel of imaginary letters from new characters who became active in the Christ religion. The Lesser Scribe grows old and writes "Revelation," as he enters dementia.
The novel's epilogue tells us the Lesser Scribes scrolls were lost for a few hundred years, then found by some hermit zealots early in the common era. They think it's all true and begin a new religion following the fictional, "Jesus."
Why not, the Tom Hanks character will ask, as he discovers all this through a well preserved scroll from the hermit's cave, if Joseph Smith could sit down and write a Bible out of whole cloth, why not a bored scribe who had fifty years with nothing else to do?
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Twilight, please write that! It's a great idea and I'd love to read it.
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