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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How close is this to denying Christ?
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
An Australian missionary being held by the North Koreans has been allowed to go home after writing an apology. Do I hear a rooster crowing?
Okay, as far as I can tell, the guy didn't write anything like "I can certainly see now that all this JESUS IS THE SAVIOUR stuff is a load of hogwash." Nevertheless, by expressing regret for his "insult" to the Korean people, he's stating, at least ostnsibly, that protecting cultural sensitivities is more important to him than spreading the gospel.
Furthermore, assuming(as seems likely) that he doesn't really care about the alleged feelings of the Korean people in this regard, but is just trying to get himself out of danger, he comes off looking even worse. Basically what he's implicitly saying is "Too bad about all the souls I didn't save, but sheesh, I can't stay in a North Korean prison forever, can I?"
I suppose you could argue that he wasn't doing much good as a missionary stuck in the jails of a totalitarian state, so he might as well just write up the demanded apology, get out of NK, and go preach to a more accomadating crowd. But you could say the same thing about Christian martyrs who are valourized for accepting death rather than denying Jesus. If they had lied and said "Okay, okay Jesus was a fraud!!" the knife would have been taken off their throats, and they would have had at least a fighting chance of doing effective witness later on.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
For my money it's not my job to say how close he is to denying Christ or not -- he was in a tight place and I have no idea what I would have done in his place. To say anything else seems judgmental.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
For my money it's not my job to say how close he is to denying Christ or not -- he was in a tight place and I have no idea what I would have done in his place. To say anything else seems judgmental.
That is a fair perspective.
I do know other Christians, however, who make a point of praising their fellow believers for refusing even just vocally renounce the faith in the face of mortal threats. So, obviously, for some people, it is something upon which judgement can be passed.
For those who don't follow these things, there is a revolving-door of westerers, usually but not always missionaries, who enter North Korea illegally, get themselved apprehanded by the authorities, and then become the subject of earnest campaigns for their release.
I recall one guy, a missionary, who prior to entering, gave a sermon in which he said to his listerners "And I do not want Jimmy Carter to come and get me!!(a reference to a previous insident where Carter had negoriated someone's release). As I recall, he ended up accepting assistance from his home government, though not Jimmy Carter, so I guess he was technically off the hook for a hypocrisy charge.
Kenneth Bae is an American missionary who has been held in North Korea since late 2012. According to that article, he doesn't have to worry about Carter coming to get him.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
I think I agree with Mousethief that it's necessary to be very careful about judging other people in this kind of context.
One of the problems here is that Westerners do rather stand out in a land like Korea, and are likely furthermore to be perceived as some kind of agents of their (supposedly) Christian governments stirring up political opposition to formally atheist communism rather than merely religious issues. As a point of strategy mission in such places is better done by comparative locals and Westerners should be careful not to risk the lives of the locals by being apparently provocative.
If Korea were a totally Christian-free land some form of Western mission might be appropriate; and even then, for a comparatively closed country other Asians might be better. but as I understand it even North Korea has a significant if underground native church. Christians outside must be interested and pray, but need to be very careful how we act.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I just hope someone's going to care for the poor guy. He must be feeling very broken.
I suspect only Christ can judge whether this constitutes denial or not. But even if it does--
We are told that Peter denied Christ outright, not in waffly probably-dictated words, but straight out "I don't fucking know the guy"--and that when Jesus was on trial for his life.
And we also know from Scripture that one of the very first resurrection appearances was Easter Sunday itself, when Jesus came to Peter, privately and alone-- it was apparently so important to him to defuse Peter's grief and despair that he didn't even put it off till the afternoon. The only thing we know for sure about that meeting is that it happened, and that Peter was heartbreakingly in love with Christ after that point--witness his behavior during the Sea of Galilee appearance. I think it's pretty safe to infer that what happened at that first meeting involved a lot of tears and repentance--and forgiveness.
I hope this poor guy has the same experience.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
For my money it's not my job to say how close he is to denying Christ or not -- he was in a tight place and I have no idea what I would have done in his place. To say anything else seems judgmental.
Amen.
I don't know him personally, but I have prayed for him every month for years as I've worked through our denomination's missionary prayer guide.
If I had my druthers, he would have held out heroically, for years if necessary, but I don't know what he was threatened with, and I have no idea how I would respond in similar circumstances.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I just hope someone's going to care for the poor guy. He must be feeling very broken.
I suspect only Christ can judge whether this constitutes denial or not. But even if it does--
We are told that Peter denied Christ outright, not in waffly probably-dictated words, but straight out "I don't fucking know the guy"--and that when Jesus was on trial for his life.
And we also know from Scripture that one of the very first resurrection appearances was Easter Sunday itself, when Jesus came to Peter, privately and alone-- it was apparently so important to him to defuse Peter's grief and despair that he didn't even put it off till the afternoon. The only thing we know for sure about that meeting is that it happened, and that Peter was heartbreakingly in love with Christ after that point--witness his behavior during the Sea of Galilee appearance. I think it's pretty safe to infer that what happened at that first meeting involved a lot of tears and repentance--and forgiveness.
I hope this poor guy has the same experience.
Thanks for that, LC.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I do know other Christians, however, who make a point of praising their fellow believers for refusing even just vocally renounce the faith in the face of mortal threats. So, obviously, for some people, it is something upon which judgement can be passed.
To stand firm in the face of mortal threats is praiseworthy, but it doesn't follow that not to stand firm is blameworthy.
We can praise a hero for running into a burning building and saving someone without blaming someone who didn't.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I just hope someone's going to care for the poor guy. He must be feeling very broken.
I suspect only Christ can judge whether this constitutes denial or not. But even if it does--
We are told that Peter denied Christ outright, not in waffly probably-dictated words, but straight out "I don't fucking know the guy"--and that when Jesus was on trial for his life.
And we also know from Scripture that one of the very first resurrection appearances was Easter Sunday itself, when Jesus came to Peter, privately and alone-- it was apparently so important to him to defuse Peter's grief and despair that he didn't even put it off till the afternoon. The only thing we know for sure about that meeting is that it happened, and that Peter was heartbreakingly in love with Christ after that point--witness his behavior during the Sea of Galilee appearance. I think it's pretty safe to infer that what happened at that first meeting involved a lot of tears and repentance--and forgiveness.
I hope this poor guy has the same experience.
i'll add my amen to this prayer.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Okay, as far as I can tell, the guy didn't write anything like "I can certainly see now that all this JESUS IS THE SAVIOUR stuff is a load of hogwash." Nevertheless, by expressing regret for his "insult" to the Korean people, he's stating, at least ostnsibly, that protecting cultural sensitivities is more important to him than spreading the gospel.
That's fascinating, you are a Noviatianist / Donatist. Except that the Stetsonists are even more rigorous, in that they condemn on conjecture. To translate this back into ancient terms, not only are Christians beyond the pale who actually have sacrificed to the pagan gods or handed over their scriptures, but now even sucking up to the Emperor and his cronies in the face of persecution is suspect. It's an all out holy war against the world, or nothing.
I hope we find a St Augustine to tell the Stetsonists where they can stuff their rigour mortis ("stiffness of death")... In the meantime we can find succour in the orthodox teaching of wide mental reservation, which allows Christians to be both wise as serpents and harmless as doves in giving their lives to Christ.
(And perhaps there is a biological solution to this heresy, as the Stetsonist are constantly risking their lives for Christ in their rigorous pursuit of martyrdom at all costs. For one positive thing about Stetsonists is that they would never ask a sacrifice of others that they are not trying to make themselves. Or so I'd expect from the loud noises being made...)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Wow, I've just praised Lamb Chopped on another thread, and she's done it again. What's even more disturbing. I may not totally agree with his manner of expression, but I agree with IngoB. I don't often find myself saying that.
We haven't got this chap's exact words, but he doesn't seem to have been made to say 'Jesus is not the Son of God' or 'I don't believe in Jesus any more'. He seems merely to have been forced to say in rather extravagant language, 'I've been a bad boy and shouldn't have come to North Korea when its people, as personified by their government, clearly don't want me here'.
Of course, we, and probably still him, don't actually accept the equation, 'Government of North Korea = the personified, single and unanimous expression of what everyone who has the misfortune to live there wants', but that is a different issue.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
So much is going to depend on what the action/"confession" means a) to the person forced to do/write it, b) to those who do the forcing, and c) to those who hear about it. It could have a different set of meanings to all three.
I suspect that in the case of the fumie (stepping on an icon of Christ), I would have said something like "Fine, I can do that, it's an image and my action symbolizes that Christ is the safe place for my feet." However I would have felt obliged to SAY this to my captors just so they didn't carry on with the idea that the action meant I was in fact denying Jesus himself--at which point they would no doubt have backed off and found some other, less ambiguous challenge to put in front of me (such as forcing me to say the words "I deny Christ"). At which point I'd be a dead duck anyway. Yay.
Honesty is a deadly thing. meh.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Everyone deserves the truth that they are Loved. Especially brutal thugs.
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Love wins
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Nevertheless, by expressing regret for his "insult" to the Korean people, he's stating, at least ostensibly, that protecting cultural sensitivities is more important to him than spreading the gospel.
Or maybe he's stating that remaining alive to spread the Gospel elsewhere is more important than dying in North Korea, the message still unheard?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I don't feel under any obligation to tell a brutal thug the truth.
They don't deserve it, they're not going to use it for any other purpose than to hurt me or others.
Good job we're not relying on you to atone for the sins of the world then really, innit? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Thanks for all the replies.
Leroning wrote:
quote:
We can praise a hero for running into a burning building and saving someone without blaming someone who didn't.
True.
However, if you belonged to a group that was on record as advertising how its members were fearless in the face of fiery danger, it might be a little problematic if you ran the other way.
pydesybare wrote:
quote:
I don't feel under any obligation to tell a brutal thug the truth.
Well, the issue for me is not "OMG, how could this heartless bastard lie to poor Kim Jong Un!" I am certain that KJU knows full well why the guy wrote the letter, and thus has in no way been deceived.
The issue is that, in writing the letter, Short has shown that he cares more about his own life-expectancy than about spreading the gospel. Which pretty much constitutes validation of KJU's anti-Christian polemics. Hard to preach about the heroism of the martyrs when the Emperor has a story right on hand about someone who got down on his knees and begged for forgiveness.
Erroneous Monk wrote:
quote:
Or maybe he's stating that remaining alive to spread the Gospel elsewhere is more important than dying in North Korea, the message still unheard?
Absolutely. In fact, I mentioned that counterargument in my OP. However, as I also rejoinded, the same argument could be made in favour of someone who utters "Jesus was a fake" when the knife is put to his throat; he, too, will live to preach another day.
And while he probably does not wish my fraternal salutations on this issue, I think Lambchopped has come closet to acknowleging my point...
quote:
I just hope someone's going to care for the poor guy. He must be feeling very broken.
Yes. Broken, because he likely knows that his actions call into mockery one of the most often-heard claims about Christian missionaries, ie. their fearlessness on behalf of the Lord.
I should say that my impressions in this regard have largely been garnered from the writings of Christian evangelicals, plus a few scattered conversations with the same. Perhaps they have overstated the extent to which Christians advertise their own fearlessness, in which case they might bear some of the blame for any mockery directed against Mr. Short.
Furthermore, and this has nothing to do with religion, but as an expatriate, I also have a somewhat negative attitude toward people who enter foreign countries with the intention of breaking the law. And I don't care who they are, what the law is, or how supposedly draconian the punishment is.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Often times when a missionary is released from North Korea after apologizing to the NK for offending their dear leader, they will recant once they arrive in Beijing.
Meanwhile, an American missionary who is in poor health and has made a similar apology on television remains in custody. Why won't NK release him?
There are other ways to evangelize in NK. Radio broadcasts are much more effective. Family exchanges will allow some good news to get through.
Eventually the regime will fall. God will prevail. The Australian missionary is but one pebble that has impacted the regime. Likewise the American missionary. No regime has ever prevailed against the Good News.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
This reminds me of the story I was told as a kid of the missionaries to somewhere (Japan or China maybe) who were forced to spit on an image of Jesus or be killed.
Japan, most likely. Christianity was very heavily persecuted there for a time. There's a fantastic novel - "Silence", by Shusaku Endo - about a missionary from the 17th century who's put in this situation. It's one of my favourite books of all time.
I wouldn't blame anyone for giving the regime what they want in North Korea. It's a truly horrific place - it's not called the world's biggest prison camp for no reason. People still routinely starve to death there or get worked to death in the gulag. It's also rare for the regime to only punish the person charged - the likelihood is that if this guy has friends or relatives or church connections in North Korea, those people may well be tortured and killed if he doesn't do as he's told. The NK regime specialises in tormenting dissent by punishing everyone you care about or even everyone you know. When someone escapes from NK, the policy is to put their entire family in the gulag for three generations. He may fear for his life. He may very well have more fear for the lives of others.
Under the circumstances, I think that Jesus' pride can probably handle it. But anyone who's pondering this should probably read "Silence" as it's a fantastic exploration of a similar situation.
[ 04. March 2014, 16:18: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Stetson, that's just idiocy. Whatever fool told you that Christian missionaries were fearless has obviously not been out of the playpen for very long. And you--come on, dude, you fell for it?
I'm a freakin' missionary. And I get scared every week of my life--and I'm not living in a persecuting country.
I know a lot of missionaries too. And none of them AFAIK is stupid enough not to be afraid. Or to advertise themselves as being fearless.
In fact, the worst fear which I think we all share is that somehow we are going to fuck things up by failing at a key moment--whether that's under persecution, or just by doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. And that goes with the territory. With God's help we hopefully deal with it well enough that it doesn't paralyze us and make us no damn use, but I don't think that fear ever goes away.
Well, until we're dead.
Kim What's-his-face isn't going to be astonished or overjoyed or what-have-you to discover that a missionary could be broken. Unless he's really, really, REALLY a total newbie and has no clue about how fragile human beings are. Somehow I doubt that.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Meanwhile, an American missionary who is in poor health and has made a similar apology on television remains in custody. Why won't NK release him?
I'm not sure. But one of the ideas floated about is that, with American miscreants, the North Koreans like to hold out until they get the real big-name Yank politicians to come in and shake hands with the leadership. So they can run propaganda footage on TV showing that even the POTUS worships at the feet of the Kims.
Remember those two American reporters, Laura Ling and Euna Lee, who got nabbed after they ran into North Korea to take photos? They were employees of Al Gore's TV station, and the story went that they originally offered to call Gore to come and negotiate their release, but Pyeongyang demanded someone bigger, eventually managing to swing Bill Clinton.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Stetson, that's just idiocy. Whatever fool told you that Christian missionaries were fearless has obviously not been out of the playpen for very long. And you--come on, dude, you fell for it?
I'm a freakin' missionary. And I get scared every week of my life--and I'm not living in a persecuting country.
Okay, I knew someone was gonna make an issue of the word "fearless", and in fairness, I should have re-written that before posting.
I did not mean "never feeling fear fear". I meant "not being deterred by fear".
And yes, I have had at least one conversation, with Christians, in which I put the scenario to them: "If someone threatened to kill innocent people unless uttered a renouncement of Jesus, what would you do?". And the reply was that, while he would do almost everything in his power to stop the guy from actually carrying out his threat to kill innocent people, he would not utter a renouncement of Jesus.
For the record, my friend had previously, and commendably, expressed equal callousness with regard to his own life in that scenario, which is why I upped the ante and brought in innocent children. As well, I had given him only two options, "yes, I would renounce", and "no, I wouldn't".
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
John 8:7b - substituting 'he' for 'she' and you have it.
Until you have been in the same pinch yourself, I doubt that any of us has the moral authority to be throwing stones.
Just a thought ...
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, as a wise person up thread said, you never know what you're going to do until you actually face the situation. So asking someone "what would you do?" isn't likely to get you useful information.
Now, asking "What do you think you ought to do?" would maybe be more useful. AND allow you to really start a thread war. For grins, I'll kick it off, shall I? Your friend was right to say that denying Christ is not an acceptable option, period. (And a pretty big hunk of Jewish tradition would agree with the "no denial" thing, witness the story of the Jewish mother with her seven children being killed in front of her, one by one.)
There. Now we can all have an argument about whether Christians are inhumane and evil to put Christ above the lives of their nearest and dearest. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And yes, I have had at least one conversation, with Christians, in which I put the scenario to them: "If someone threatened to kill innocent people unless uttered a renouncement of Jesus, what would you do?". And the reply was that, while he would do almost everything in his power to stop the guy from actually carrying out his threat to kill innocent people, he would not utter a renouncement of Jesus.
I bet he wouldn't. And frankly, I would think worse of him for not trying to protect the innocent than whether he has 'renounced' Jesus Christ.
And the problem is that all of those folks who are making out that they'd be doing a better job and that this guy should be doing a better job are actually giving him a further kicking whilst he is down.
I used to know (very slightly) a guy who went to Mynmar and was caught handing out pro-democracy leaflets and was imprisoned. He went knowing that it was inevitable that he would be arrested.
I used to think this was very brave and noble and upright. I now think it was mostly a daft thing to do. But then, many of us have done daft and dangerous things. I have lied my way out of sticky positions, I don't blame anyone for attempting to do the same.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I wouldn't blame anyone for giving the regime what they want in North Korea... It's also rare for the regime to only punish the person charged - the likelihood is that if this guy has friends or relatives or church connections in North Korea, those people may well be tortured and killed if he doesn't do as he's told. The NK regime specialises in tormenting dissent by punishing everyone you care about or even everyone you know. When someone escapes from NK, the policy is to put their entire family in the gulag for three generations. He may fear for his life. He may very well have more fear for the lives of others.
Hmm, I was reading this thread and idealistically thinking 'Surely we should hold firm to our faith and proclamation of Jesus' lordship, never mind the consequences!' (Not that I'm confident I would hold firm.) But what if the consequences are quite likely to include imprisonment, torture and / or death for many other people, just because they happened to know me? That does rather change the picture, I'd say...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Lamb Chopped wrote:
quote:
There. Now we can all have an argument about whether Christians are inhumane and evil to put Christ above the lives of their nearest and dearest.
Well, you know, on the Ship, I once tried to argue that Jesus meant exactly what he said when he told the guy that he could either follow him, or attend his father's burial. Someone(can't recall who) replied that, oh no, it's nothing that awful, Jesus just knew the guy only wanted to go to the burial to get his inheritance. Thus, the whole story is really just a lesson against greed.
Which I didn't find entirely convincing, since if that was Jesus' real point, he would have found a less in-your-face way to put it than "Let the dead bury themselves." More to the point would have been "Better to not mourn than to mourn for gold." Or something.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I don't feel under any obligation to tell a brutal thug the truth.
They don't deserve it, they're not going to use it for any other purpose than to hurt me or others.
Good job we're not relying on you to atone for the sins of the world then really, innit?
I have a hunch this is true of every person on this thread. I know it's true for me. I suppose you will have to speak for your own qualifications in this regard.
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
The issue is that, in writing the letter, Short has shown that he cares more about his own life-expectancy than about spreading the gospel.
Does he? I don't see that. In order for that to be the case, you would have to set it up this way:
He signs the letter: he lives
He doesn't sign the letter: he gets to spread the gospel, at least for a little while, before he dies.
I don't think those are the options. The choice is between signing a letter and dying. He's showing he'd rather be alive than dead. At no point does spreading the gospel enter into his decision, except that by living, he can potentially spread the gospel somewhere else, whereas by dying, he can do no such thing.
In fact it would appear you have it exactly backwards.
In short, you are by your words still judging this guy, which you have no right to do. In fact Jesus said something about judging. Let me think, let me think....
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't think the cases are similar.
In the one you mention, there's hardly any chance that a Jewish son would be away from home listening to a passing rabbi (and incidentally making the whole crowd ritually unclean by his mere presence!) while Dad lay dead at home. Thus it makes sense to look for a less literal interpretation. The culture doesn't allow for a literal one, any more than American culture would allow you to rightly interpret "Want a knuckle sandwich?" in a literal sense, and respond, "Sure, I'll get the catsup."
In the other case, we've got clear teaching in a number of different texts regarding the necessity to put Christ first. Above life, above family, above everything. And there is nothing in the context to suggest that anything metaphorical is meant.
Thus speaketh the pain-in-the-butt former literature teacher.
[ 04. March 2014, 17:07: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, as a wise person up thread said, you never know what you're going to do until you actually face the situation. So asking someone "what would you do?" isn't likely to get you useful information.
Before we were married my then girlfriend and I went to Cairo, Egypt. In my naiveté I decided to explore the local backstreet Mosque while she sat on the steps outside. I was followed out of the Mosque by a group of angry young men who cornered us shouting, "Christians? Christians? Are you Christians?". I found that the words "no, no" slipped out very, very easily indeed.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I had a much less dangerous and basically farcical encounter. While I was still coming to the conclusion that the person wasn't actually going to knife me, I basically gibbered. And since I really knew deep down that the freak wasn't going to do it, it wasn't a fair test by any means.
[ 04. March 2014, 17:15: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Before we were married my then girlfriend and I went to Cairo, Egypt. In my naiveté I decided to explore the local backstreet Mosque while she sat on the steps outside. I was followed out of the Mosque by a group of angry young men who cornered us shouting, "Christians? Christians? Are you Christians?". I found that the words "no, no" slipped out very, very easily indeed.
I have lied my way out of several 'hairy' situations in the Middle East. Once an obnoxious border guard questioned what the little book was I was carrying in my pocket. It was a NT.
I'm not sure what I said, but he didn't look very closely at it.
Other times I've deliberately lied about who I've met and where I've been whilst questioned by authorities who asked.
I've lied. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't think the cases are similar.
In the one you mention, there's hardly any chance that a Jewish son would be away from home listening to a passing rabbi (and incidentally making the whole crowd ritually unclean by his mere presence!) while Dad lay dead at home. Thus it makes sense to look for a less literal interpretation. The culture doesn't allow for a literal one, any more than American culture would allow you to rightly interpret "Want a knuckle sandwich?" in a literal sense, and respond, "Sure, I'll get the catsup."
In the other case, we've got clear teaching in a number of different texts regarding the necessity to put Christ first. Above life, above family, above everything. And there is nothing in the context to suggest that anything metaphorical is meant.
Thus speaketh the pain-in-the-butt former literature teacher.
I have continued the Luke 9 discussion here.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Before we were married my then girlfriend and I went to Cairo, Egypt. In my naiveté I decided to explore the local backstreet Mosque while she sat on the steps outside. I was followed out of the Mosque by a group of angry young men who cornered us shouting, "Christians? Christians? Are you Christians?". I found that the words "no, no" slipped out very, very easily indeed.
I have lied my way out of several 'hairy' situations in the Middle East. Once an obnoxious border guard questioned what the little book was I was carrying in my pocket. It was a NT.
Blimey. It would be a horrible irony to get strung up for having a book which the average Muslim holds in higher regard than you do.
[ 04. March 2014, 17:44: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
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Posted
We must put, I think, some of this into context. We, in the information age, think that thoughts and intent are paramount. And we think that the doing is the outcome of the thinking. How about: sometimes the doing leads to thinking.
I am reminded of (particularly young) people who have asserted that XYZ behaviour is wrong, from the point of morality and thought about it, and then they engage in the behaviour (often without having a premeditated intent), with subsequent conversation with them showing the adaptation of the their thoughts so as to justify the behaviour previously ruled by them as something never to do.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
As a result of a false understanding of church history, and the dubious tactics of some anti-persecution advocacy groups, there is a belief among many Western Christians that persecuted believers have always heroically endured opposition.
It is true that “semen est sanguis Christianorum”, but it is not true that all (or most) Christians have always remained publicly faithful to Christ.
As IngoB’s reference to Novatianists and Donatists reminds us, there were many, lay and clerical, who succumbed during the Decian and Diocletianic persecutions, with all the ecclesiastical and sacramental complications involving sacrificati, libellatici and confessors, which ensued.
The fact is that persecution, if it is harsh enough and consistent enough, can be quite effective.
For example, there was a time during the 1970s – 1980s when there were no known believers in Hoxha’s Albania.
From time to time one hears Christians claiming that some persecution would do wonders for the purification of the Western church, the implication being that they, the speakers, would be faithful, while lesser brethren would betray the faith and be weeded out.
Half of me thinks “be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it”, and the other half wants to kick them very hard up the arse.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
God only knows what any of us would do in such a situation. Personally, I don't think She would damn, hate, or even judge us negatively if we denied Her. If a child were told, on pain of imprisonment, torture, or death, to reject its parent, would a good parent blame the child if it did reject them??
I grew up in a church that was very serious and grave about this sort of thing, and we were supposed to always be ready to stand up for Jesus, no matter the cost. That included the expectation that the End Times might come in our time, and we'd be put to that test. (Fortunately, not the kind of church that's foaming at the mouth about it. Though they did show that very traumatic ****ing "Thief In The Night" movie. I can still see the last few scenes in my head. (Shudder.) There was a Ship discussion, some years back, prompted by a very stupid church that tricked the youth group into thinking they were kidnapped for their faith--actually kidnapping them. Huge mess. Anyway, we got to talking about the "Thief In The Night" film, and I found I wasn't the only one traumatized by it.)
Refusing to deny your faith may preserve your inner integrity, in some ways. But I'm not convinced that's a destiny that God would choose for anyone, and I don't worship martyrdom.
Some people have a fantasy of martyrdom, or even a psychological drive. I don't think that's healthy. In one of his plays, TS Eliot said that "some are martyred by not being martyrs".
I grew up reading Br. Andrew's "God's Smuggler", wondering and fantasizing, and wondering if it was always a good thing to do what he did, and maybe considering it a high calling. And in his case, it may wall have been right and good.
But I think that a lot of people get into evangelical derring-do for bad reasons--scoring points with God, self-aggrandizement, acting out due to personal problems and even mental illness, running away from daily life--and don't think clearly about it. It's one thing to be put in that situation, as with a Christian (or other religious practitioners, 'cause it happens to them, too) who's arrested for simply practicing their faith. IMHO, it's another thing entirely to purposely seek it out.
Starhawk, a Pagan priestess, teacher, and social activist who's been arrested many times for her activism, said that being jailed makes you figure out what you really believe. I have great respect for Starhawk. The world missed out on a good rabbi, because that path wasn't available, but gained a good Pagan priestess.
But I think that, even with activism about social issues, it doesn't make sense to do your action in such a way that you're likely to get arrested. E.g., people who protest outside a nuclear installation, but choose to trespass in order to get arrested--whether due to the reasons I mentioned above, or trying to gain street cred.
Sometimes, too, foolish actions can endanger other people. Someone who barges into another culture and country, acting out their evangelism fantasy, is apt to endanger the people they allegedly are there to help. Or look at the guy (or more than one?) who was dead-set on seeing Aun Sang Soo Kyi and somehow helping her, when she was under house arrest. He got into her home, and caused a great deal of trouble for her.
I'm not saying no one should be a missionary. (Though, these days, I favor more the kind that focus on practical help.) But it should be done sanely, compassionately, and wisely.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Sometimes, too, foolish actions can endanger other people. Someone who barges into another culture and country, acting out their evangelism fantasy, is apt to endanger the people they allegedly are there to help.
I'm not saying no one should be a missionary. (Though, these days, I favor more the kind that focus on practical help.) But it should be done sanely, compassionately, and wisely.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/january-february/world-missionaries-made.html
Some interesting research which challenges the current secular stereotype of missionaries.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
If things ever change in North Korea, and one hopes and prays for the poor people that have the misfortune to live there that one day they will, the people who will bring the message of Jesus to them will be the South Koreans. They speak the same language. Their recent history has meant there are now significant cultural differences between them but until the 1950s, there was only one Korea. South Korea is a country full of Christians whose commitment - if you have the good fortune to meet them - puts us to shame.
This ought to be obvious.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
KC
Unfortunately, that link is to an article which can only be read in full if you have a subscription.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Stetson
I find the judgemental tone of your OP quite astonishing.
We none of us know how we would respond if taken prisoner by a repressive, regressive neo-fascist state such as NK.
Your glib musings as to whether a 75 year-old man is going to hear a mental rooster call is sick.
Get out of your bible belt whichever it is - look at the real world, look at world (not US) history and grow up.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
IngoB:
I was disappointed, from your post, to find that I may have been mis-representing (and defending) RCC teaching on what honestly really is.
I believed, actually, that this was a bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants, in that the latter believed that any statement given which was contrary to known fact, was a lie and therefore a sin. Whereas the RCC made this dependent on the relationship between the parties, which was what demanded (or did not) factual accuracy. It's a degree of situational ethics which I think is right.
After all, isn't the command defined as not bearing false witness against our neighbour? Is it not odd to believe that, faced with an enemy we may kill them (clearly I'm not a total pacifist) but mustn't tell a downright lie. I believe Bonhoeffer wrote that he learned to lie in his teeth. Good for him.
Maybe I've mistaken you and you would only resort to mental reservation on cases where you are being forced to deny the faith. Maybe it's me, but rather than find carefully crafted words, I'd rather tell a straight lie. Like various valiant people in the Bible.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
From time to time one hears Christians claiming that some persecution would do wonders for the purification of the Western church, the implication being that they, the speakers, would be faithful, while lesser brethren would betray the faith and be weeded out.
They never seem to consider that any kind of serious persecution would lead to "the faithful" being killed, leaving only the "lesser brethren" alive to spread the gospel.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
After all, isn't the command defined as not bearing false witness against our neighbour? Is it not odd to believe that, faced with an enemy we may kill them (clearly I'm not a total pacifist) but mustn't tell a downright lie. I believe Bonhoeffer wrote that he learned to lie in his teeth. Good for him.
There is a story, I think about Bonhoeffer, which has him in a crowd. His companion is refusing to give the Nazi salute, obviously in contrast to all his companions.
B (if it was actually he) asks his friend what he is doing, and the friend replies that he is standing against the Nazis.
B replies by forcing his friend's arm into the salute position on the basis that being caught for this small infraction wasn't worth it.
Again, this is from memory, so the details might be made up.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
After all, isn't the command defined as not bearing false witness against our neighbour? Is it not odd to believe that, faced with an enemy we may kill them (clearly I'm not a total pacifist) but mustn't tell a downright lie. I believe Bonhoeffer wrote that he learned to lie in his teeth. Good for him.
There is a story, I think about Bonhoeffer, which has him in a crowd. His companion is refusing to give the Nazi salute, obviously in contrast to all his companions.
B (if it was actually he) asks his friend what he is doing, and the friend replies that he is standing against the Nazis.
B replies by forcing his friend's arm into the salute position on the basis that being caught for this small infraction wasn't worth it.
Again, this is from memory, so the details might be made up.
That's how I remember the story.
And I had thought of posting along the same lines.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
L'organist wrote:
quote:
Your glib musings as to whether a 75 year-old man is going to hear a mental rooster call is sick.
Well, for the record, I'd have the same degree of flippancy(whatever that may be) if it was the crew of Girls Gone Wild getting arrested while trying to film an Asian Edition video in North Korea. As I said above, my sympathy for lawbreakers abroad is pretty close to zero.
quote:
Get out of your bible belt whichever it is
Actually, right now, it's this one. The Deep South, in fact.
Though I make no special claims to cultural expertise, I only really know what I read in the papers.
quote:
look at world (not US) history and grow up.
Thanks for the side-helping anti-Americanism. And I didn't even have to ask!
Not sure why you thought the over-zealous missionaries I had in mind were all Americans, though. I'm Canadian, and have spent a grand total of one week in the US Bible Belt(Tanmpa counts, I assume?)
Per capita, there are probably just as many reckless Christian missionaries in my current Bible Belt as in the American one. These guys, for example. After being directly warned by the government against going to Afghanistan, they actually stood in front of a sign bearing a similar warning at the airport, took a smiling snapshot, and got on the place to Kabul!
Of course, when they were eventually kidnapped and held hostage by anti-Christian militants, the government's ransom, including the tax money of Buddhists, atheists, and others, certainly came in handy for shortening their heroic stay in the Lion's Den.
[ 05. March 2014, 13:13: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And yes, I have had at least one conversation, with Christians, in which I put the scenario to them: "If someone threatened to kill innocent people unless uttered a renouncement of Jesus, what would you do?". And the reply was that, while he would do almost everything in his power to stop the guy from actually carrying out his threat to kill innocent people, he would not utter a renouncement of Jesus.
I reckon Jesus would think this was nuts. If your friend were to pretend that he renounced Jesus, it would save the lives of the innocents, and Jesus would know very well it was pretence.
If your friend refuses to pretend to renounce Jesus, the innocents die. The threatener/killer may be impressed by this display of "faith" but probably equally unimpressed with a faith that puts maintaining the outward appearance of righteousness ahead of love for neighbour. So your friend probably doesn't even win any souls. The children die for nothing.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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