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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pastoral Care 101 from daronmedway
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Welcome, denizens, to Pastoral Care 101 from daronmedway.
This all started here.
Adeodatus gives us a scenario:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
You're a hospital chaplain. You're called to the Emergency Department where a girl has been admitted with life-threatening injuries. On arrival, you're shown into a room with the girl's parents. The father - a large bloke - backs you into a corner and yells, "Look, mate - I want a miracle and I want it NOW!!"
Over to you.
daronmedway’s suggestion is to respond thus:
quote:
"Tell me, why do you want a miracle?"
Having been pretty much in that situation, I opined that this was not the right answer.
To this daronmedway replies
quote:
There is no right answer. That's the point.
so I naturally asked him why he suggested one, and that one in particular. In his reply he maintains
quote:
As it stands I probably would ask that question though
I explained why I thought it was wrong, but perhaps Adeodatus, who I think is well-placed to comment, says it best: quote:
whatever theologising you come up with on this subject has, somehow, to have some resonance with that father in that room at that time.
From that point on I’m attempting to get across to daronmedway just how insensitive such a question would come across in such circumstances. Apparently in his defence, he then suddenly “discerns” that, well, quote:
This fella doesn't sound like a Jairus to me. He sounds like a bully. A bully in need of miracle, but a bully nonetheless.
which apparently exonerates him from any display of compassion. When pressed on whether he is sure he is able to discern this (in stark contrast to Jairus), he responds “yes”.
Daronmedway, you’re happy to tell everyone that life on the Ship is about quote:
being hazed with questions to which no-one really wants the answers
Well, hello. I really want the answers. How can you look yourself in the mirror as a minister (which is what you say you are in your profile) and exhibit such a total lack of sensitivity and compassion? I’m not sure what you’re ministering, but it seems to me you missed out on that “love mercy” bit.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If there's a bully in the equation then the bully is Daronmedway.
By extension, we could say that Daronmedway's God is also a bully.
Because people have a tendency to create a God in their own image.
Daronmedway has created a capricious, spiteful, smug Calvinist God in his own image ...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
More seriously, even leaving Daronmedway's principled evangelical/charismatic Calvinism out of the equation, the answer Daronmedway suggests in this particular scenario has to be one of the most pastorally insensitive I've ever heard.
Why even attempt to provide a fucking answer?
Why not weep with the guy, share his pain. Why try to be some kind of smart-arse, know-all clerical six-feet above contradiction pietist prat?
I would agree with Daronmedway that they might be times when his attempt at an answer might be appropriate. This doesn't sound like one of them.
And Daroninabadway can proof text until the cows come home ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm simply longing for the chapter and verse showing where Jesus asked "tell me*, why do you want a miracle?"
*Some manuscripts add: "my dear fellow" or "my good man"
[ 11. March 2014, 21:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I feel a bit sorry for daronmedway in this situation. He was presented with a hypothetical scenario, and now we are arguing about what we should do in a situation that has never actually occurred. Yes, OK, some of us may have experienced a similar situation, but not this one. It's a bit like all the bullshit about whether we should stop a train by hurling fat people in its path. A great parlour game, but generally fuck all to do with reality, in which God may intervene in ways that we cannot predict.
Pillory someone for their insensitivity in a real situation. But FFS, the poor bloke has made a mistake in a fucking story!
He shoulda kept his gob shut.
But, hey, he's not the worst culprit on that score!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
There may be no right answer, but there are certainly many wrong answers and most of them sit under the "let's theologise about this in a crisis situation" hat.
Theologising comes later when people start asking those kind of questions.
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Clearly the correct approach is to take the Tom Baker line when the great man was cast as Rasputin in "Nicholas and Alexandra". It's years since I've seen it but my distinct recollection is that the doomed Empress of All The Russias went to Russia's Greatest Love Machine to ask him to heal her son. Being a Cat That Really Was Gone, he demanded that she drop to her knees and pray for God's forgiveness and as He Could Preach The Bible Like a Preacher, Full Of Ecstasy And Fire And He Also Was The Kind Of Teacher Women Would Desire she did fall to her knees and prayed for God's forgiveness and the Czarevich Alexei was, lo and behold, healed of his haemophilia. (Insert FOCA gag here.) I feel certain that if Daron took this line rather than the pettish, "why do you want a miracle?" bit, which sounds like a junior government minister trying to blag his way out of an interview with Paxo, he could be a winner of souls and would be Such A Lovely Dear to Moscow Chicks. He should just stay away from the booze when invited to a social event With Some Men Of Higher Standing. Not everything ends well.
[No I am not taking this seriously. I am far from being a fully paid up member of the Daron Fan Club but as Mr Evangelical points out we are talking about a hypothetical here.]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I put the scenario in the Purgatory thread originally because I was frustrated with the disengaged abstract theology that was going on. There are places for that - plenty of them - but I don't think this very primal question is one of them. When faced with someone begging for healing, it's not the place for working-out, but for gut reaction. At least that's what daronmedway gave us, though that particular reaction might not have got him far in real life.
Actually, EE, this precise case is a real one, related by Peter Speck, and as I said, nearly all healthcare chaplains have similar stories. I have several myself, the recollection of which still has the power to turn my stomach.
It annoys me when Christians make high-flown claims for God doing miracles of curing sickness. It annoys me because I'm one of the poor bastards who has to pick people up off the floor and wipe their tears when he doesn't. Much fucking good he is at that point, I can tell you. That's why, on the Purgatory thread, I tried to sidestep the theorising. This is one circle that can't be squared. And the heart of the matter lies somewhere in the bestial cry of the newly-bereaved that stays in your ears long after you're home from the Emergency Department, and trying without success to get to sleep.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus
Actually, EE, this precise case is a real one, related by Peter Speck, and as I said, nearly all healthcare chaplains have similar stories.
Thanks for clarifying that.
But even so, it is still a hypothetical situation for Daron and the rest of us, as we were not there. Personally I find the moral conundrums (conundra?) of "what would you do if you were in that situation?" generally unanswerable, because reality doesn't work like that. I suspect that the real Daron might act differently from "Daron's imagination as expressed on the Ship" when faced with such a scenario.
Certainly the real EE acts differently from "EE's imagination on the Ship", the latter generally wishing to throttle certain online people, who shall remain nameless, while I am sure the former would happily buy the poor souls a drink and have a laff with 'em down t'pub.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Personally I find the moral conundrums (conundra?) of "what would you do if you were in that situation?" generally unanswerable, because reality doesn't work like that.
That would wash here if daronmedway had gone with his second answer, "there is no one right answer", first.
As it is that second answer looks to me like an attempt to back away from the utter stupidity of the first answer without an apology. When challenged on that, daronmedway again failed to back away and dug his hole a bit deeper by insisting that yes, his first answer is in fact what he would probably say. It's there in black and white.
I wouldn't wish the situation Adeodatus describes on anyone, but as he points out it is the kind of situation that people encounter all the time, and having been pretty much there myself, as described in the previous thread, I can't believe the crassness of the answer from someone claiming to be a minister. Especially the crassness of insisting on that first answer when challenged.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I have some sympathy with that view, EE. I'm sure Daron would act more appropriately in a real life scenario.
But you know how it is online. When some people are challenged on something they dig their heels in and hold to whatever entrenched position they happen to hold. We see it happening all the time. Not a million miles from here ...
People hold to that line even beyond the point when they've started to make a twat of themselves.
That's what Daron has done.
And he's indulged in all manner of casuistry to justify the unjustifiable.
Hence the Hell Call. A call he so richly deserves.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have some sympathy with that view, EE. I'm sure Daron would act more appropriately in a real life scenario.
I very much hope so!
Of course there are some people who see imminent death and funerals as a fertile ground for evangelism.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Certainly the real EE acts differently from "EE's imagination on the Ship", the latter generally wishing to throttle certain online people, who shall remain nameless, while I am sure the former would happily buy the poor souls a drink and have a laff with 'em down t'pub.
Maybe it's just me, but IMO this shouldn't be the case. For those of us who profess to follow Jesus, I think we should treat people equally (equally well!) whether we are physically with them or communicating online.
Sure, we might 'wish to throttle certain online people' but doesn't that desire spring from our sinful, untransformed nature, and therefore should be suppressed, not given free reign? (I should say I'm not arguing for the removal of Hell from Ship of Fools.)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Different people approach this different ways, and there has been a thread about the consistency of real life and online personas not so long ago.
I still think it's obvious that like any case study worth its salt, Adeodatus' scenario is based on a real-life one, and that it was abundantly clear (before he said so here) that he threw it into the mix precisely because it corresponded to how things are in real life.
That makes it grossly insensitive of daronmedway to respond as he did and doubly so when I recounted a similar real-life situation, two in fact, concerning the same grieving man both times.
Of course this is pushing my buttons because of the memories it brings back to me. It's also pushing my buttons because I know exactly what Adeodatus means about how theologising pales into insignificance in the face of human suffering and I'm appalled at how daronmedway appears to be oblivious to this.
CS Lewis has a great line in Perelandra about having "to enact what philosophy only thinks". To me christianity in general, and christian ministry in particular, is all about that, and that is why I'm asking a christian minister to come here and explain himself.
[ 12. March 2014, 08:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That makes it grossly insensitive of daronmedway to respond as he did and doubly so when I recounted a similar real-life situation, two in fact, concerning the same grieving man both times.
Quite so, Eutychus. And yes to Christian ministry being about 'enacting what philosophy only thinks'. I like that!
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh and now it seems that up in Purg daronmedway is quote:
not convinced the vicarious ire being expressed here on this thread is entirely justified, or honest
My ire is not vicarious. I'm angry because a minister could display such insensitivity and continue to do so, and at the harm that could potentially cause.
It would seem my honesty is being called into question, too. But only up in Purgatory.
Meanwhile, quote:
"Tell me, why do you want a miracle?" is a reasonable option among a wide variety of possible options.
Still.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I would have thought the proper, honest response to darren's "Why do you want a miracle" question would be "Because I don't want my daughter to fucking die you twat! Now deliver one else you will die as well!".
Doesn't that put the ball well and truly back in his court? Does it really need all this huffing and puffing to keep the fundamental question alive?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Fuck me! I agree with Deano on something!
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The response isn't the problem. He deserves whatever he gets. The problem is asking the question in the first place.
[ 12. March 2014, 09:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Welcome to the internet. A land where advice can be given freely, anonymously and without any meaningful consequence because you're not within hitting distance.
*shrug*
It has its good and bad features. On the one hand, it might free you up to say some hard truths without the normal social sugar-coating. On the other, it enables you to be abstract, impractical or just use other people's lives as vicarious sport.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This is worth a Hell call for Daronmedway in itself. Talk about adding insult to injury.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Oh and now it seems that up in Purg daronmedway is quote:
not convinced the vicarious ire being expressed here on this thread is entirely justified, or honest
My ire is not vicarious. I'm angry because a minister could display such insensitivity and continue to do so, and at the harm that could potentially cause.
It would seem my honesty is being called into question, too. But only up in Purgatory.
Not only is Daronmedway insensitive, he is also fucking arrogant.
One day he might post on Ship telling us about a pastoral incident where someone really has kneed him in the nuts or punched him on the nose ...
And he'll be wondering what he's done to deserve it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano
Doesn't that put the ball well and truly back in his court?
Why in his court?
Funny, but I always thought miracles came from God, not from hospital chaplains!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, but we must at least expect some pastoral wisdom, surely, from hospital chaplains ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
You're all clearly very upset. Let's take a deep breath, try to calm down and then maybe we can talk about it.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This is one circle that can't be squared. And the heart of the matter lies somewhere in the bestial cry of the newly-bereaved that stays in your ears long after you're home from the Emergency Department, and trying without success to get to sleep.
I remember when my sister was a junior doctor doing her stint in A&E. Early in the morning, a girl was brought in who had wrapped her car around a tree at some speed, unaware, most likely, that she was under the influence of the previous evening's alcohol.
My sister told me that when the girl's mother arrived, and had been appraised of the basic facts, she was literally screaming at my sister "Please save her! Please save her!"
If there is an answer for this situation, then I am sure there are lots of doctors as well as hospital chaplains who would like to know what it is.
Bless you for your work, Adeodatus.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Now we see some genuine pastoral wisdom:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're all clearly very upset. Let's take a deep breath, try to calm down and then maybe we can talk about it.
Keep going, Daron. You're getting there ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Funny, but I always thought miracles came from God, not from hospital chaplains!
That's fine and dandy, unless you happen to be one of those Christians who claims that healing miracles are available to anyone who truly prays for one. You can't really proclaim a faith that Healing Miracles Will Certainly Happen and then be all coy about it not really being certain at all when the chips are down and a dying person is in front of you begging for one.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're all clearly very upset. Let's take a deep breath, try to calm down and then maybe we can talk about it.
Is that the best you can do?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
If there is an answer for this situation, then I am sure there are lots of doctors as well as hospital chaplains who would like to know what it is.
Doctors don't tend to give the impression that their abilities can fix anything. Christians with Healing Ministries often do give that impression, at least until they're asked to put up or shut up.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, Eutychus, as Daronmotorwaypileup has painted himself into a corner, it's obviously the only option open to him:
- Firstly, he projects the problem onto someone else. 'You are all clearly upset' - rather than, 'I've been a complete fucking prat and it's hardly surprising I've been called on it'.
Then he assumes the position of an authoritative, controlling, I fucking know best because I'm an ordained bastard minister and not only that, my fucking theology is obviously so bastard sound and superior to everyone else's figure.
Let's sit down and take about it calmly.
'But my daughter's dying you prat!!!!'
Get out of that one Darondodgeandrunaway ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You're all clearly very upset. Let's take a deep breath, try to calm down and then maybe we can talk about it.
Is that the best you can do?
Try stepping back a bit and considering how your own biography might be adding to your sense of outrage and stoking your desire for a barny. And then try engaging with me on this issue, rather than attacking my office.
For my part, I'm sorry for sticking so doggedly to my stated point of view on the Purgatory thread. It's not a hill I'd die on, to be perfectly honest, and I'm prepared to admit that my suggestion was most likely insensitive. However, my natural reaction is to dig my heals in when people start getting irate. When it comes to fight or flight, I'm a fight man especially when it's in the realm of hypotheticals.
[ 12. March 2014, 10:53: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
My dear Gamaliel,
You've got daddy issues where ministers are concerned. You know this.
All the best.
Your conscience.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It's not a hill I'd die on
You looked quite keen on it at one point.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
If there is an answer for this situation, then I am sure there are lots of doctors as well as hospital chaplains who would like to know what it is.
Doctors don't tend to give the impression that their abilities can fix anything. Christians with Healing Ministries often do give that impression, at least until they're asked to put up or shut up.
True.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It's not a hill I'd die on
You looked quite keen on it at one point.
Like I said, when it comes to fight or flight spectrum I'm quite a long way down the fight end of things. Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. Maybe that's why my engagement with Adeodatus's scenario took that particular turn. I'm not naturally inclined to back off in those sort of situations.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Further presumption:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My dear Gamaliel,
You've got daddy issues where ministers are concerned. You know this.
All the best.
Your conscience.
Who appointed you as my conscience, Daronmedway?
Sounds like a self-appointment to me.
As far as I'm aware, I don't have 'Daddy issues' with priests or ministers at all. Some of my best friends are priests and ministers.
I don't have an issue with your office. I might have an issue with a particular orifice, because that's what you seem to talk out of some of the time.
So who the fuck gave you permission to speculate about my past, my relationship with my Dad and so on?
You can be witty and insightful but you can also be a presumptious, arrogant and pretentious tool at times.
Like now.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Try stepping back a bit and considering how your own biography might be adding to your sense of outrage and stoking your desire for a barny.
I already did, here. I don't think I'm the one lacking in critical distance at this point. quote:
And then try engaging with me on this issue, rather than attacking my office.
I was not attacking your office, I was attacking your apparent attitude given that you allegedly hold it.
What you posted either reflects what you would instinctively do in real life, or an assumption that since this discussion is all virtual, you can post thoughtlessly here without bothering about how it might affect anyone having to grapple with the issues raised in real life.
If the former, then God have mercy on you and/or your parishoners.
If the latter, well that makes sense of your opinion that on the Ship quote:
You'll either (...) join the Orthodox/Liberal pact or you'll remain a pariah
- apparently consigning yourself to the latter category. If you post random stupid suggestions without a thought for those on the receiving end and then hang onto them come what may, it may go some way to explaining why you feel like a pariah.
quote:
For my part, I'm sorry for sticking so doggedly to my stated point of view on the Purgatory thread. It's not a hill I'd die on, to be perfectly honest, and I'm prepared to admit that my suggestion was most likely insensitive.
Well, that's progress. Thank you.
quote:
However, my natural reaction is to dig my heals [sic] in when people start getting irate. When it comes to fight or flight, I'm a fight man especially when it's in the realm of hypotheticals.
"My hypothetical, right or wrong", eh? I suppose you don't ever expect to get your mind changed by anything you read on here. Which might also explain why you get the impression nobody really wants your answers to their questions.
Now what was all that about being "less than honest"?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Moreover, the standard ploy adopted in the restorationist house-churches to deflect criticism, questioning or even healthy debate was to insist that anyone raising any kind of objection, however mild, had 'an issue with authority.'
I detect an element of that in Darondighimselfadeeperholeaway's attempt to deflect my comments. And sure, there were a bit angry, but this is Hell ... I don't go around with accumulated anger and resentment to all church leaders - far from it ...
It's compounded by his apparent belief that he is becoming a pariah on account of his impeccable theological credentials ie. he's neither Orthodox or Liberal so therefore outside of the camp and proud of it - when in fact, as I demonstrated on the thread where that comment occurred, some of the main criticism he was getting was coming from a fellow Calvinist.
I'm not surprised I abandoned Calvinism. This is the kind of pompous, self-righteous and judgemental territory into which it can so easily lead.
Second-guessing and pontificating on other people's motives, questioning their integrity - you name it. We've seen it all before.
Now, I'll concede - I still believe that Daronmedway would act with greater sensitivity and insight in real life and in a real pastoral situation than he is apparently demonstrating here. There must be some reason why they gave him the job ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I don't doubt that he's a good bloke and some of his parishioners probably love him to bits.
I'm not sure he's the sort of guy I'd turn to in a crisis, though.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
That's fine and dandy, unless you happen to be one of those Christians who claims that healing miracles are available to anyone who truly prays for one. You can't really proclaim a faith that Healing Miracles Will Certainly Happen and then be all coy about it not really being certain at all when the chips are down and a dying person is in front of you begging for one.
And what if you happen to be one of those hospital chaplains who does not make such claims?
If so, you are then under no obligation to produce a miracle "on tap".
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Like I said, when it comes to fight or flight spectrum I'm quite a long way down the fight end of things. Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. Maybe that's why my engagement with Adeodatus's scenario took that particular turn. I'm not naturally inclined to back off in those sort of situations.
Fight or flight reactions are appropriate in dangerous situations. Having someone disagree with you, even strongly, is not dangerous.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I actually think it's Daronblitzallsensitivityaway who is being disingenuous.
He knows that Eutychus and I have had problems with particular forms of authoritarian church government practices in the past and is trying to use that to deflect attention away from his own failings in this instance.
'The reason you guys are cross is because you've had issues in the past and are projecting them onto me ... you've got 'Daddy issues'. I understand, I can read the pair of you like a book. Your anger and outrage doesn't affect me ...'
Which is, of course, another example of pastoral insensitivity. And complete bollocks too, of course.
But then, we are dealing with hypotheticals and if we were around a table at a pub or over a cuppa then I very much doubt that anything would have got heated.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And what if you happen to be one of those hospital chaplains who does not make such claims?
Then you're unlikely to respond with "tell me, why do you want a miracle?" as if such a thing is entirely within your power to give, but first you have to make sure the person asking for it is doing so for the right reasons, or worthy enough, or whatever.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Like I said, when it comes to fight or flight spectrum I'm quite a long way down the fight end of things. Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. Maybe that's why my engagement with Adeodatus's scenario took that particular turn. I'm not naturally inclined to back off in those sort of situations.
Fight or flight reactions are appropriate in dangerous situations. Having someone disagree with you, even strongly, is not dangerous.
Moo
Well, it's not dangerous here, where our only weapons are words, but in a face-to-face, highly stressed situation, daronmedways "natural inclination" might make a life-or-death situation more tense and therefore more dangerous for everyone.
Then again daronmedway insists "It is all hypothetical" every time the debate gets uncomfortable, so there isn't a problem.
[ 12. March 2014, 12:22: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Like I said, when it comes to fight or flight spectrum I'm quite a long way down the fight end of things. Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. Maybe that's why my engagement with Adeodatus's scenario took that particular turn. I'm not naturally inclined to back off in those sort of situations.
Fight or flight reactions are appropriate in dangerous situations. Having someone disagree with you, even strongly, is not dangerous.
Moo
In real life what you're saying is, perhaps, correct although I've been in situations where there was a threat of verbal but not physical aggression which I still considered to be in some sense "dangerous" and in which fight or flight reactions did come into play.
Don't you think that notions of "fight or flight" can say something about a person's character and natural dispositions in relation to all kinds of conflict, not just the threat of physical conflict or physical danger?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And what if you happen to be one of those hospital chaplains who does not make such claims?
Then you're unlikely to respond with "tell me, why do you want a miracle?" as if such a thing is entirely within your power to give, but first you have to make sure the person asking for it is doing so for the right reasons, or worthy enough, or whatever.
That wasn't an inference I would wish anyone to make on the back of that question, as I've said elsewhere.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Like I said, when it comes to fight or flight spectrum I'm quite a long way down the fight end of things. Not saying it's right. Just saying how it is. Maybe that's why my engagement with Adeodatus's scenario took that particular turn. I'm not naturally inclined to back off in those sort of situations.
Fight or flight reactions are appropriate in dangerous situations. Having someone disagree with you, even strongly, is not dangerous.
Moo
Well, it's not dangerous here, where our only weapons are words, but in a face-to-face, highly stressed situation, daronmedways "natural inclination" might make a life-or-death situation more tense and therefore more dangerous for everyone.
Then again daronmedway insists "It is all hypothetical" every time the debate gets uncomfortable, so there isn't a problem.
The debate is hypothetical regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable it makes anyone feel.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair enough, but I still can't see what direction you could take the conversation in at that stage without giving the distraught parent the impression that there was something you or they could do about the situation ... even if it was to simply steel themselves for the inevitable ...
If that were to be the intention, though, I'd have thought that there were far more sensitive ways of attempting to do that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I actually think it's Daronblitzallsensitivityaway who is being disingenuous.
He knows that Eutychus and I have had problems with particular forms of authoritarian church government practices in the past and is trying to use that to deflect attention away from his own failings in this instance.
Oh, you think that's what he was alluding to?
If so, well, needling at what one perceives as others' weaknesses to try and shore up one's own tottering position is indeed bullying. It doesn't address the issues at all; it's just plain nasty.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Then again daronmedway insists "It is all hypothetical" every time the debate gets uncomfortable, so there isn't a problem.
The debate is hypothetical regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable it makes anyone feel.
Then what is the point of the debate? Indeed, what is the point of doctrine or scripture if all one is going to do is study, read and debate it and not act upon it?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Try stepping back a bit and considering how your own biography might be adding to your sense of outrage and stoking your desire for a barny.
I already did, here. I don't think I'm the one lacking in critical distance at this point. quote:
And then try engaging with me on this issue, rather than attacking my office.
I was not attacking your office, I was attacking your apparent attitude given that you allegedly hold it.
What you posted either reflects what you would instinctively do in real life, or an assumption that since this discussion is all virtual, you can post thoughtlessly here without bothering about how it might affect anyone having to grapple with the issues raised in real life.
If the former, then God have mercy on you and/or your parishoners.
If the latter, well that makes sense of your opinion that on the Ship quote:
You'll either (...) join the Orthodox/Liberal pact or you'll remain a pariah
- apparently consigning yourself to the latter category. If you post random stupid suggestions without a thought for those on the receiving end and then hang onto them come what may, it may go some way to explaining why you feel like a pariah.
quote:
For my part, I'm sorry for sticking so doggedly to my stated point of view on the Purgatory thread. It's not a hill I'd die on, to be perfectly honest, and I'm prepared to admit that my suggestion was most likely insensitive.
Well, that's progress. Thank you.
quote:
However, my natural reaction is to dig my heals [sic] in when people start getting irate. When it comes to fight or flight, I'm a fight man especially when it's in the realm of hypotheticals.
"My hypothetical, right or wrong", eh? I suppose you don't ever expect to get your mind changed by anything you read on here. Which might also explain why you get the impression nobody really wants your answers to their questions.
Now what was all that about being "less than honest"?
I've changed my mind on quite a few things in response to what I've read here on the ship. And, on the occasions that I've been called to Hell, I think I've offered a genuine apology, at least eventually.
The "pariah" comments from Purgatory were said in jest despite the small kernel of truth in what I said.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The "pariah" comments from Purgatory were said in jest despite the small kernel of truth in what I said.
This is called: "having your cake and eating it".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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