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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 21st century Christian martyrs
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
Prince Charles spoke out this week against Christian persecution.
Here is the BBC link.
Why don't we talk about this? Is there nothing to say?
Our response is of course to pray for all involved and to love our enemies, but is there anything else we could do? Perhaps a new book of Christian martyrs, for the 21st century?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Prince Charles spoke out this week against Christian persecution.
Here is the BBC link.
Why don't we talk about this? Is there nothing to say?
A couple reasons. The first is that it's not really controversial. There's no strong pro-persecution in the West (which is what I assume you mean by "we"). Issues on which there's broad consensus ("religious persecution is wrong") usually don't get debated that much.
The second is that certain factions within Christianity, particularly in the West, tend to cry "persecution" at the drop of a hat, usually in response to what most people would call "criticism". This tends to blunt discussion of actual persecution.
Finally, given that the subject is covered in the BBC and being put forward by a prominent member of the British royal family, I'm not sure it's really accurate to claim no one is talking about this.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Or a new Altar at Canterbury Cathedral.
The other one's use by date has expired.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
A couple reasons. The first is that it's not really controversial. There's no strong pro-persecution in the West (which is what I assume you mean by "we"). Issues on which there's broad consensus ("religious persecution is wrong") usually don't get debated that much.
The second is that certain factions within Christianity, particularly in the West, tend to cry "persecution" at the drop of a hat, usually in response to what most people would call "criticism". This tends to blunt discussion of actual persecution.
Finally, given that the subject is covered in the BBC and being put forward by a prominent member of the British royal family, I'm not sure it's really accurate to claim no one is talking about this.
My 'we' means those of us who consider ourselves to be Christians. If you read the link, it's about actual persecution, i.e. people being killed or driven from their homes because they are openly Christian, not about criticism for their beliefs.
Yes the BBC mentioned it, probably because it was one of the prominent royals who brought it up, but whereas other stories are picked up and followed up in the media this seems to me to have encountered silence rather than discussion. Could it be because it is not happening in 'the West'?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Not followed in the media?! The media have been mentioning since the Arsb spring. On this very site we've had links to Christians and Muslims protecting each other, from that very persecution. Which brings up the point that it is not only Christians being harried and killed.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Yes the BBC mentioned it, probably because it was one of the prominent royals who brought it up, but whereas other stories are picked up and followed up in the media this seems to me to have encountered silence rather than discussion. Could it be because it is not happening in 'the West'?
I'm not sure being brought up by a prominent royal and followed up by the BBC, complete with sidebar linking to three similar articles, counts as "silence". Your implication that there's some media conspiracy afoot to suppress this story isn't borne out by the very link you provided in the OP.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In Egypt and Syria we have been unwise, non-inclusive, self-interested, played the game. We are not suffering for righteousness' sake. This is NOT persecution for being Christ-like. It very rarely is.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
"We" are the West. The truly persecuted, native Christians are bearing the brunt of the tug-o-war between cultures. My church's priest is a native Pakistani and she has friends and relatives who are in constant danger because they are Christians. Christianity is conflated with Western politics which amplifies the problem.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Martin, who the hell is we? And nobody is persecuted for being Christlike, if by that you mean merciful, loving, holy, etc. But they are indeed persecuted by the millions for no other crime than bearing Christ's name.
Does it devalue martyrdom if those killing you are doing so for illogical reasons?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
Assume you are a Christian. You live a decent but otherwise unremarkable life. One day people storm into your house, drag you and your family out, and murder all of you.
Now assume that everything else is the same, except that you are Muslim, or belong to any other religion or have no faith at all. Are you any less of a martyr in God's eyes?
Of course as Christians we have a special duty to point out persecution of members of our own religion - but when I think of a martyr I think of someone who dies for professing or witnessing to the truth in spite of the threat of violence. I am sure there are such stories happening in Syria right now. But there are also plenty of people who are just going about their lives and are killed anyway because of the religious/ethnic group they belong to. I don't see Christians who die in this way as any more special than anyone of any other belief or nonbelief who dies in this way. Are they all martyrs? Sure.
Does their kind of martyrdom merit shrines, cults of the Saints, etc.? For that matter, do we know that all of them are in Heaven vs. being in Purgatory (for those who believe in it) or Hell? I definitely don't think they are in Hell (no matter what religion they had or did not have) - but I am not sure that they are in Heaven rather than Purgatory. The word martyr usually means someone that you are sure is in Heaven because they made a heroic stand for their faith at their death.
I think the Catholic/Orthodox use of the word martyr might differ from other Christian and non-Christian uses of it. (Does anyone know the exact definition of a martyr in Islam?)
Should Christians jump up and down about these killings? Yes. Should they also jump up and down about Shiites, Sunnis, Alawites, etc., being killed for their faith? Yes.
Should the secular media be reporting on this? Very much so. But should it report on the deaths of Christians any more than the deaths of anyone else? I don't think RaptorEye is arguing this, but I have heard arguments among the Christian community (whom I hear talk about the killings in Syria all the time) that seem to have that connotation.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Although we Western Christians spend time condemning injustice and poverty in the world, we're nervous about singling out the persecution of Christians in other countries. Mainstream Western churches tend towards a liberalism that's reluctant to highlight the differences between religions. And most of us live in pluralistic societies and have to get on with people from all religious backgrounds and none. Making a special issue out of the religious persecution of Christians will complicate those relationships.
Even the sort of conservative Evangelicals who claim they're being persecuted in the West don't seem especially exercised by the real persecution of Christians in the Middle East, or in parts of Asia. There are some charities that work to support such Christians, but I don't know how widespread their support is.
The secular media might have a passing interest to such stories, but it doesn't go very far.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lamb Chopped. I don't want to distance myself from my spiritually impoverished brethren. Hence 'we'. And they might be being persecuted. They are. But as you acknowledge, it's for a mere label, the label of Christendom. NOT for righteousness' sake. They are no martyrs.
Christians butchered in India five years ago by Hindu extremists weren't either. It seems to me that they represent a threatening, alien, American, Evangelicalist culture to their neighbours.
Did Egyptian Christians stand up for the human rights of the democratically elected Islamic Brotherhood? Did Syrian Christians refuse to take up arms to recover their communities from radical Islamic insurgents?
Remember 1982? Sabra and Shatila? I do.
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Love wins
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Really, you were there? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Lamb Chopped. I don't want to distance myself from my spiritually impoverished brethren. Hence 'we'. And they might be being persecuted. They are. But as you acknowledge, it's for a mere label, the label of Christendom. NOT for righteousness' sake. They are no martyrs.
Christians butchered in India five years ago by Hindu extremists weren't either. It seems to me that they represent a threatening, alien, American, Evangelicalist culture to their neighbours.
Did Egyptian Christians stand up for the human rights of the democratically elected Islamic Brotherhood? Did Syrian Christians refuse to take up arms to recover their communities from radical Islamic insurgents?
Remember 1982? Sabra and Shatila? I do.
Okay, I'm getting pissed off. Spiritually impoverished--our persecuted brothers and sisters? That's a bit rich coming from anybody who has no scars to point to. I wouldn't venture it myself, having never suffered anything worse than death threats.
This question of who is truly a martyr is rather personal for me, as martyrdom is the reason my husband grew up motherless. She and her husband took in a homeless young man, unaware that he was actually a Viet Cong spy. They were a pastoral/missionary family, taking in the homeless and troubled is what such people do. And he naturally repaid them by sticking a bomb in the family van. I think it took her three days to die.
My widowed father-in-law stood up at the young man's trial and pleaded for his life. HIs plea was granted. And when the communist North overran the South, the young man was freed and vanished. I have to hope that this all made enough of an impact on him that his soul was ultimately saved. But God only knows.
Now about his motivation--was it just "I'm a communist spy, and that's what we do, taking out Christian leaders, nothing personal here?" Was it "I hate Christians in general"--which would be killing for a mere label, as he had only been there a day or two, and couldn't have known them personally? Was it "Damn, you burnt my pho this morning, can't you even care for the homeless properly?"
I don't know. All I know is, she served Christ sacrificially and she died at the hands of one of those she served in Jesus' name. And her death, and her husband's mercy, bore witness to the mercy of Jesus.
That's enough to say "martyr" to me.
[ 20. December 2013, 23:27: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No Beeswax Altar. Our fellow Christians, in their fecklessly innocent spiritual bankruptcy, were, murdering thousands of Muslims.
And yes Lamb Chopped, she died for following Christ, but she wasn't killed for following Him. I'm sure even through your bankrupt anger you get the distinction.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You know, Martin, for a red cent I'd take you to Hell right now. But my blood pressure's high enough at the moment and I'm going to get off the Ship and do something productive.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Sure, but, you don't KNOW they killed her because she was a follower of Jesus. More than likely, the Viet Cong killed her because she represented the opiate of the masses provided by colonial oppressors and not because she was righteous. Some hip American megachurch pastor probably wrote something similar in a pop theology book. So, it must be true.
Would the hip American megachurch pastor have the courage to admit what he wrote implied your mother-in-law wasn't a martyr? Not bloody likely. Well, at least, he wouldn't if he knew his words would be heard by those who weren't on the far left.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
No Beeswax Altar. Our fellow Christians, in their fecklessly innocent spiritual bankruptcy, were, murdering thousands of Muslims.
And yes Lamb Chopped, she died for following Christ, but she wasn't killed for following Him. I'm sure even through your bankrupt anger you get the distinction.
You have just crossed the line from semi-coherent eccentric to common-or-garden-variety arsehole.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You have just crossed the line from semi-coherent eccentric to common-or-garden-variety arsehole.
hosting/
And you have just crossed the line into personal insults, big time. This is unacceptable outside Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
If I may tiptoe into what has obviously become a fairly tense situation here, I think it should be fairly non-controversial to observe that, when Communists slaughtered Christians in a CIVIL WAR, it's usually not just a case of "Hey, I really don't like this namby-pamby Jesus guy in the Bible, let's go out and find a bunch of his followers to kill." As if the Communists were a bunch of suburban devil-worshipping headbangers on a coke-fuelled rampage.
No, it's pretty clear that Communists killed Christians because they associated Christianity(not entirely without reason) with colonialism. That the association might not have always been a correct one does not make it any less of a reality for the killer.
As a comparison: If the Afghan Mujahideen had spotted someone handing a copy of The Communist Manifesto to a child in the early 1980s, they probably would have shot the guy in the head, even if the guy was just giving the kid the book because it was the only book available for a reading lesson.
Now, does this mean that the mujahideen were seething with hatred for Karl Marx and anyone who ever called himself a Marxist? No, not in any meaningful way. Few of them likely had anything beyond the sketchiset idea of what Marx was all about. For most of them, it was just a case of "Marx = Russia and Russia = The People Who Have Invaded Our Country".
None of this means that the mujahideen were a universally good bunch of guys, nor that shooting someone for handing out the Manifesto is a rational repsonse to foreign aggression. Just that there is a more complicated context to the violence than simply "Oh gee, look how much some people hate Dialectical Materialism".
[ 21. December 2013, 09:02: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You have just crossed the line from semi-coherent eccentric to common-or-garden-variety arsehole.
hosting/
And you have just crossed the line into personal insults, big time. This is unacceptable outside Hell.
/hosting
Sorry
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In word only Kaplan-Corday. You have to mean it from the heart. You must love me brother. Right now. Give me your love, your regard, your respect higher than yourself.
Well ... you can a wait a while. I'm finding it difficult too.
Common or garden?!
That really is Hellish.
OK kiddies, anyone apart from Stetson engaging their left brains with this? (And yes I do know.)
My heart should go out, especially easily to Lamb Chopped, and even to the Tea Party (one always thinks Mad Hatter's rather than Boston), but it lies as cold as stone within me and I will be smitten for it by the Holy Spirit soon I hope.
I've never been characterized as a left wing loony before! Wow. How far I've come from being a right wing one. I was a member of the Monday Club. An apologist for US foreign policy, apartheid, Bloody Sunday, Hiroshima, you name it.
Lamb Chopped, your anger is completely understandable, your lost mother-in-law was a true follower of Jesus and so was her awesome husband. This must have happened in, what, '74? After 18 years of war by Christendom?
And your anger - not for the first time on this issue as I recall and now I see why - is nothing to do with me and what I said and even how I said it. It's internal and projected.
As for the Mad Hatter's friends, they can't be reasoned with at all and are God's innocents.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Martin, if you want to pursue the personal angle, take it to Hell or resolve by PM. Purgatory is not the place to do so. Those are the rules, and they apply to you too.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Sir. My apologies to yourself as Host. And my fellow guests.
Hell brothers and sisters?
[ 21. December 2013, 11:42: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you for the interesting responses.
Some seem to want to deny that there is any such persecution: that if it does exist it has nothing to do with Christianity as such, rather it is a racist attack against 'the West' and its political past and present (regardless of whether or not those targetted are 'Western'); that those who are killed because they are openly Christian are martyrs at all; or that any Christian response should seek to confine itself to Christian persecution, rather it should include all persecution.
If, as the report suggests, Christians are being killed not for political reasons but for religious ones, by Islamist militants, whether or not there is any suggestion that if they recanted their beliefs they would be spared, I suggest that they are martyrs.
What is the right Christian response? Someone said it's OK to jump up and down about it (as long as we don't confine it to what happens to our Christian brothers and sisters). Prayer goes without saying, as does love, but are there any other avenues that may be pursued? Should we ever condemn people to God, in prayer, for their actions?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
What is the right Christian response? Someone said it's OK to jump up and down about it (as long as we don't confine it to what happens to our Christian brothers and sisters). Prayer goes without saying, as does love, but are there any other avenues that may be pursued? Should we ever condemn people to God, in prayer, for their actions?
I honestly don't *know* what the right Christian response is, besides prayer. We knew, back in the day, that the Soviets, and most Soviet bloc countries, were exquisitely sensitive to international attention, and so letter writing campaigns and demonstrations and the like were effective at changing conditions for Christians who were being imprisoned, tortured, or killed because they were Christians. I participated in many such efforts, and helped organize a few.
In Albania, on the other hand, international attention made things worse for Christians. So we didn't do anything to bring attention to Christians in Albania. There was nothing that could be done that would help. We, like physicians, had an obligation first to do no harm.
As much as I hate it, I suspect that the situation in Syria and throughout much of the middle east is more like it was in Albania than the situation in the Soviet bloc. I don't know that. But it seems likely to me.
I also think that the tendency among some in the west to take images (e.g., one of a woman falling from a tall building) and recirculating it as evidence of Muslim atrocities, when the real situation is either unknown, or known to be something else, is extremely problematic when it comes to helping Christians in the middle east. It inflames passions here, making it harder to find anything to do that would actually help.
So I feel sad and helpless, but I don't do anything, because I don't know what can be done without making things worse.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If, as the report suggests, Christians are being killed not for political reasons but for religious ones, by Islamist militants, whether or not there is any suggestion that if they recanted their beliefs they would be spared, I suggest that they are martyrs.
Given that Islamism is a theocratic movement, I'm not sure you can really distinguish between political reasons and religious ones.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Muslims are also killing other Muslims for not being the proper kind of Muslim. Just as Christians have done.
Much of the killing is you are not us, not so important as what the you is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If, as the report suggests, Christians are being killed not for political reasons but for religious ones, by Islamist militants, whether or not there is any suggestion that if they recanted their beliefs they would be spared, I suggest that they are martyrs.
Given that Islamism is a theocratic movement, I'm not sure you can really distinguish between political reasons and religious ones.
And pretty pointless too. Just about every political movement has, at some time, borrowed doctrines very selectively from religions, often to garner support from adherents of that faith.
It is much more convincing to persuade people to do something unpleasant to their friends, neighbours and family on a supposed religious basis than because a resolution was passed approving some policy at the party conference.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Going back to the OP for a moment, this article on the exodus of Christians from Syria certainly isn't "keeping quiet" about the issue
But there are a lot of things happening in the world, and people have to filter how much they can manage to process.
Quoting Pope Francis, from his Gaudium message: quote:
we know that the Roman empire was not conducive to the Gospel message, the struggle for justice, or the defence of human dignity. Every period of history is marked by the presence of human weakness, self-absorption, complacency and selfishness, to say nothing of the concupiscence which preys upon us all. These things are ever present under one guise or another; they are due to our human limits rather than particular situations. Let us not say, then, that things are harder today; they are simply different.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So I feel sad and helpless, but I don't do anything, because I don't know what can be done without making things worse.
I can see that if those who are killing Christians are doing so to 'get at the West' for political reasons, then any remonstrations by people of the races they hate may meet with some satisfaction.
ISTM that ignorance is a big factor, our ignorance as to why anyone would consider it a good thing to murder someone else, particularly someone whose only 'crime' is to have chosen a different religion, (especially as Christians are generally so tolerant of other religions), and the ignorance of the perpetrators which plays out in prejudice and hatred, neither of which have any place in religion.
I too feel sad and helpless, and pray for those affected but can do no more, so it seems. A hornets nest may be stirred up by trying to discuss it, as we've seen here. Maybe that's why some shy away from the topic.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And no Raptor Eye, we are NEVER to condemn our enemies. We have no example of that in Jesus. We would be denying Him. Refusing the honour of martyrdom.
[ 22. December 2013, 17:31: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
So I feel sad and helpless, but I don't do anything, because I don't know what can be done without making things worse.
I can see that if those who are killing Christians are doing so to 'get at the West' for political reasons, then any remonstrations by people of the races they hate may meet with some satisfaction.
ISTM that ignorance is a big factor, our ignorance as to why anyone would consider it a good thing to murder someone else, particularly someone whose only 'crime' is to have chosen a different religion, (especially as Christians are generally so tolerant of other religions), and the ignorance of the perpetrators which plays out in prejudice and hatred, neither of which have any place in religion.
I too feel sad and helpless, and pray for those affected but can do no more, so it seems. A hornets nest may be stirred up by trying to discuss it, as we've seen here. Maybe that's why some shy away from the topic.
Yep, Westboro Baptist Church and those who complain about 'Happy Holidays' are so tolerant of other religions. Not.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
In that case Lamb Chopped, so am I.
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Love wins
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I hate to defend the Fred-ites, and holiday-whiners, but at least they aren't killing people. So far. But you are right, there is a lot of Christian intolerance knocking about.
And, yes, I know some homophobes have killed victims of their prejudice. I know the widowed partner of such a victim, God give peace to his soul grant a change of heart, penitence, and even forgiveness to his killers. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
ETA: cross-post with Martin
[ 22. December 2013, 20:31: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I think the case of Christians (and other small religious minorities like Druze, small Shi'i offshoot sects, Baha'i, and the very few Jews that are left outside Israel) in the Middle East - and especially in Middle Eastern countries that have descended into chaos - is unique because they are so vulnerable. Egypt is different because Christians make up 10% of the population there (although they are discriminated against, sometimes violently) - but in a place like Syria or Iraq, a secular dictator protected religious minorities and allowed them some success in the economy/regime in order to gain allies against the oppressed majority. I am not accusing Christians of complicity in the brutality of Hussein or Assad - but rather saying that they appear as targets to the more extreme elements of the oppressed groups (and militant visitors) who have taken up arms against the regime. When the Ukraine and other parts of Eastern Europe fought to switch allegiance from the Catholic Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to the Orthodox Russian Empire, the oppressed Orthodox people saw Jews and those Eastern Christians who had switched allegiance to Rome while retaining their Eastern Rites as stooges of the outgoing regime and there was quite a bit of brutality against them. Was this violence merely political? Of course not. Religious hatred (and especially antisemitism) only served to further fan the flames.
Sometimes when certain terrorist groups want to target Christians, Jews, or other Muslim sects, they give them a chance to convert to (the "correct" version of) Islam in order to survive. This makes the situation more similar to that of classical martyrdom. But you could say that the killers are motivated by a desire to humiliate their enemies by imposing their faith upon them as they are by whatever religious belief they have that requires them to coerce people to convert.
So please call them martyrs. As a Roman Catholic, I am often uncomfortable with who gets proclaimed a saint, especially when so little time has passed since their death. Christians who do not pray to saints still honor martyrs but don't need to worry about who is infallibly declared to be in heaven. So when martyr is used in the Catholic sense I tend to urge caution. When the Pope says someone is a saint I am forced to believe it, and I don't know what to make of the fact that I often wonder whether or not popular pressure or political expediency are what are motivating the Pope to canonize certain people. Of course, as RCs we have to believe that even if a Pope declares someone to be a saint for a bad reason, that person is still a saint, because it is one of the limited areas where the Pope is infallible. Let's just say it's one of the places where I haven't crossed over into heresy yet but I'm getting close.
I certainly don't think any people declared saints are in Hell. I'm a big believer that the vast majority of people go to Purgatory on their way to Heaven, so maybe that's part of it. Of course there are real Saints that we can be sure are in heaven and pray to. It often helps if they lived a long time ago and we don't know very much about their life!
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Yep, Westboro Baptist Church and those who complain about 'Happy Holidays' are so tolerant of other religions. Not.
I am so pissed off with Fred Phelps and the Westboro Church being cited as representative in any meaningful way of Christianity in general or evangelicalism in particular.
They consist of a few dozen members of an extended family, and AFAIK receive no recognition or approval from any other Christian denomination, group or movement.
It is about as logical and ethical as treating Lefebvrism, or the Little Pebble cult, as representative of the RCC, or some crazy Trotskyite cell, or the (alleged)left-wing captors of the three "slaves" recently rescued in London, as representative of socialism.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'm thinking Bosnia right now. Stories from Moslems, Orthodox and RC. They all did it. Killed their neighbours. I guess it does have to do with religion, but it also doesn't seem to have to do with religion. Terrorism, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, war. It sort of starts with religion cum ethnicity, but it really isn't, can't be, about that. -- do we humans always violate the principles of our religions' founders as our first acts in their names? Seems so.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: Don't worry, Raptor Eye. I'm going to stay off this thread
I understand, LC, and thank you for your insight and comments, derived from such personal experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And no Raptor Eye, we are NEVER to condemn our enemies. We have no example of that in Jesus. We would be denying Him. Refusing the honour of martyrdom.
I think that you're right in that we are not to condemn our enemies in the sense that they are sinners as we are, and we would like them to be saved as we would like ourselves to be saved. However, I wonder whether it goes far enough to condemn the actions of others before God. The motivation should surely also be condemned, the way of thinking which not only allows cruelty and murder, but which somehow convinces itself that God would approve.
This is a corruption of the good purposes God has for all of us. There is no excuse for it, whether political, racial, religion-orientated, or complete madness. Forgiveness doesn't mean making excuses for the harmful actions of others.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I'm thinking Bosnia right now. Stories from Moslems, Orthodox and RC. They all did it. Killed their neighbours. I guess it does have to do with religion, but it also doesn't seem to have to do with religion. Terrorism, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, war. It sort of starts with religion cum ethnicity, but it really isn't, can't be, about that. -- do we humans always violate the principles of our religions' founders as our first acts in their names? Seems so.
I think this has already been answered:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha :
Much of the killing is you are not us, not so important as what the you is.
In Bosnia, as in Northern Ireland and elsewhere, religion was one way of differentiating you from us.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Sometimes when certain terrorist groups want to target Christians, Jews, or other Muslim sects, they give them a chance to convert to (the "correct" version of) Islam in order to survive. This makes the situation more similar to that of classical martyrdom. But you could say that the killers are motivated by a desire to humiliate their enemies by imposing their faith upon them as they are by whatever religious belief they have that requires them to coerce people to convert.
It's perhaps always been the case that those who try to aggressively overpower others may feel a desire to humiliate them, whatever the motivation for the aggression. There are certainly Biblical precedents.
quote:
So please call them martyrs. As a Roman Catholic, I am often uncomfortable with who gets proclaimed a saint, especially when so little time has passed since their death. Christians who do not pray to saints still honor martyrs but don't need to worry about who is infallibly declared to be in heaven. So when martyr is used in the Catholic sense I tend to urge caution. When the Pope says someone is a saint I am forced to believe it, and I don't know what to make of the fact that I often wonder whether or not popular pressure or political expediency are what are motivating the Pope to canonize certain people. Of course, as RCs we have to believe that even if a Pope declares someone to be a saint for a bad reason, that person is still a saint, because it is one of the limited areas where the Pope is infallible. Let's just say it's one of the places where I haven't crossed over into heresy yet but I'm getting close.
I certainly don't think any people declared saints are in Hell. I'm a big believer that the vast majority of people go to Purgatory on their way to Heaven, so maybe that's part of it. Of course there are real Saints that we can be sure are in heaven and pray to. It often helps if they lived a long time ago and we don't know very much about their life!
I can understand the desire to commemorate the martyrs, to hold up their names to God on the anniversary of their death, and to be inspired by their faith and courage. Of course there have been so many that 'All Saints' day is a cover-all, but I would like to know the names of those brothers and sisters who are being killed for their Christian faith as it happens, so that I can use their names as I pray for them and for their families and communities, condemn the actions of their oppressors and ask that God's love will smother hatred and bring peace and reconciliation.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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