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Source: (consider it) Thread: Discussion Thread Mafia 2 The Trailer
Dafyd
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I will be hosting a mafia game starting about next Monday.
In the mean time do people have any roles they'd like to see, thoughts on whether the game is biased too far towards one side rather than the other, etc?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Personally, I won't be able to play this time around, but I would say that it felt quite easy for the mutineers this last time around. (That's not criticism though - it was a fun game. [Smile] ) I'm not quite sure how to skew the balance. Maybe have one fewer mutineer. Maybe have one extra investigator. I'm not sure.

But I am sure others will have opinions too.

--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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An die Freude
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The last couple of times have been fairly vanilla, haven't they? I could certainly be up for something a bit more complex, with more roles and possibly sides. Maybe some traitors within the mafia of sorts as well, to complicate the game a bit, of course accompanied by other difficulties or roles amongst the loyals.

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
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Formerly JFH

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Gwai
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I think more and complicated roles is always a lot of fun. I was mob last time, but I do agree we probably had it a bit too easy. I think last time was fun because the writing on all sides was very good, but changing things up is always interesting anyway. Particularly when two games are relatively close together.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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I too vote for more complications (the Wikipedia article is a good source for finding ideas there), but against having a Mafia traitor. It is way, way too easy to sell out your compatriots and end the game on day two. Two factions (or families) of mafiosi, however, neither of whom know about the others is something I've considered doing in the past, though.

--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Surfing Madness
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I may be up for playing, need to look at my work schedule. Also feel that you are all better at story telling than me, but I guess practice is the answer.

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Adam.

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quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
I may be up for playing, need to look at my work schedule. Also feel that you are all better at story telling than me, but I guess practice is the answer.

I've always viewed that as an optional extra part of the game. Fun, but hardly essential. My one tip would be to pick a character that you think you can stay in while playing the game the way you like to play it.

I'm torn on this next game. I'd love to play, but I'll be incommunicado between 3/8 and 3/15, which looks like it may well be right in the thick of the action. Of course, I could be dead by then! If I don't play, I'll enjoy being a spectator for once.

On roles: I agree that a mafia traitor is too powerful. 'Subtle roles' (ie. roles with limited powers) can be fun, but be careful about accidentally giving them the extra power of being able to prove their innocence by uncontested role claim. I have a personal fondness for roles that allow people to affect voting, mostly because we rarely have them. I invented the prankster for this purpose a few games ago, but I'm sure there are plenty of other creative options.

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
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I've never played. [Frown] So I think I'll watch this new one from start to finish to see how it works and then perhaps take a shot at the next version.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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An die Freude
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I too vote for more complications (the Wikipedia article is a good source for finding ideas there), but against having a Mafia traitor. It is way, way too easy to sell out your compatriots and end the game on day two. Two factions (or families) of mafiosi, however, neither of whom know about the others is something I've considered doing in the past, though.

I wasn't thinking of a straight traitor as much as say, the "white werewolf" (whose goal is to be the last man standing) or the "loving couple" (one inside the mafia, one loyal, both wanting to end up together as last people standing). But two sides would also be very interesting.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've never played. [Frown] So I think I'll watch this new one from start to finish to see how it works and then perhaps take a shot at the next version.

Do not fear, it is very simple. You see, the game will usually start with Eliab blubbering about logics and without a clue pointing to someone who should be taken off. Then everyone runs around in circles pointing, screaming and waving hands (in some sort of unclear voting pattern that may or may not really matter) and when the smoke clears La vie en rouge wins with a grand show of evil brilliance. Think of it as a hell thread, with Eliab being [a talkative logic chopper] and La vie being Rook. We all play the role of [redacted] from time to time, defending the indefensible and making the unworkable work (in our minds). As in hell, wits is well rewarded, usually by someone cutting you off with an axe in the back or such. On your birthday.

On a somewhat more serious note, of course you should join straight away! We just finished a game, and a search for "Mafia" in the ship's locker should give you plenty of material to study and see the accuracy of my statements above. C'mon, it'll be fun!

[Message fiddled about with by Ariston the Circus Host at poster's request. Remember everybody, just because the Circus is one step away from Hell sometimes doesn't mean it is Hell. Keep It Friendly, mmkay?]

[ 19. February 2014, 00:17: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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Formerly JFH

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've never played. [Frown] So I think I'll watch this new one from start to finish to see how it works and then perhaps take a shot at the next version.

Either that, or read over the last game (it just ended) and join in this one!

[ 18. February 2014, 23:43: Message edited by: Ariston ]

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I've never played. [Frown] So I think I'll watch this new one from start to finish to see how it works and then perhaps take a shot at the next version.

You should be fine (among other things).

a) Speak reasonably often (it gives something to go on), if possible develop a character (I can't maintain one - which is why I'm a patchy player)

b) If in a funny role, watch your pronouns or knowledge. Remember to translate to the perspective of a 'villager' unless you want to come out. Saying "Our plan to kill Mr Smith was foiled by the Doctor" contains two mistakes.

c) Be aware that the mafia will try to pretend to be friendly or pretend to mistrust you, and produce fake good reasons for suggestions.

d) But the innocents will be friendly or really mistrust you and produce good (but maybe wrong) suggestions.

[ 19. February 2014, 22:23: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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As a first time player in the last one, I'm not sure I got the hang of it. I was trying very much to play Jay-Emm's a) condition - post often and stay in character.

But the more successful tactic, ISTM, would have been to say as little as possible and generally pass unnoticed.

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Gwai
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Firenze, it certainly made you a fun player to have around. And honestly you did last pretty long, so I'm not sure you would have lasted longer by being silent.

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Adam.

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Also, I should add that, while of course it's fun to play for a long time, dieing isn't losing. You win if your team wins whether or not you're still on the field when the final whistle blows.

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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Wet Kipper
Circus Runaway
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:


But the more successful tactic, ISTM, would have been to say as little as possible and generally pass unnoticed.

yet I was suspected straight away for not saying much. [Biased]
I like playing, but i get lost in the logic of how the timing and content of what someone says can immediately inform seasoned players of what's going on.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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I think I'm used to the more discursive style of RPG, where you can mess about all evening without having anything decisively disastrous happen to your character (ah, the saga of the osquip head soup...)

Also, another player (Eliab) made observations on my character based on my general Ship persona. ISTM that the character you create in the game ought to be the whole of what the other players know about you.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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There's also a fair bit of "well, based on past experience with this person in this game…" that always goes on. Now, ideally, I'd like to play by the DM Handbook rule that says you're not allowed to use outside information, but this is Mafia. Playing the armchair psychologist is half the game. So I'm on the fence on this one; on the one hand, it means some of us have gotten a bit too good at picking up on what someone's usual behavior is, but, on the other hand, reading people and trying to pick out when they're lying out their asses is the name of the game.

Either way, I guess.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
I like playing, but i get lost in the logic of how the timing and content of what someone says can immediately inform seasoned players of what's going on.

I suspect most of that 'logic' is BS anyway, in the sense that any given action could be argued at least two ways. [Biased]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Dafyd
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I've opened the thread for the new game here.

[ 22. February 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
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Another approach to complicating things a bit is not to reveal the roles that are in play ie give a list of possibilities - vigilante, miller, defector, masons, whatever you like - and leave it to the players to work what is and isn't in play.

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Dafyd
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Over on the main mafia thread we have ten players so far. We'll probably set off with that number; but another two players would allow for all the general chaos and skullduggery that I have in mind. Roll up, roll up.
We'll try to play a day and night per week, so the busy at work have time to keep up with events. The worst that can happen is that people will lynch you or murder you for being too quiet.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Dafyd
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Does anyone know what's happened to some of our former regulars?
Banner Lady, Autenrieth Road, leonato, Smudgie, Pax Romana, Chelley, and others?

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
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Well I'd be surprised if Smudgie has disappeared, seeing as she's a Circus host and will therefore be reading every word of what is written. But hosts often decline to be participants in a thread for that very reason.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Ariston
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Does anyone know what's happened to some of our former regulars?
Banner Lady, Autenrieth Road, leonato, Smudgie, Pax Romana, Chelley, and others?

I've been told that "real life" is a thing, as is "procrastination." Personally, I'm glad to see so many new folks!

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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An die Freude
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A quick google reveals that Pax Romana, Chelley and Leonato all had their latest posts on the Ship in 2011 or 2012. I suppose we could PM them - I could do so right now, check how they're doing, invite them for the game, but I think in that case, it would be fair to give them until the end of the weekend or so to join. Let me know what you think, Dafyd, as GM.

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Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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An die Freude
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Ok, so after having spotted Leonato in the "recent visitors to the forum" list in the board front page - which I never usually look at but by coincidence just rested my eyes on for a second - I decided to send him a PM. After that, I decided to send Chelley and Pax Romana a PM too. Smudgie, I know you'll be reading this, so come on, give us another chance, will you? [Biased]

Whereas I know we haven't got all spring and don't mean to push everyone around just for my own wishes to see plenty of people in the game, could we possibly give these people a chance to read their inboxes and, say, start the game by mid- or end of the weekend, Dafyd? Of course, I'll go along with whatever you decide as GM. Joostein does not wish to be arbitrarily turned into a newt.

Best wishes to everyone - may you all be swept away by a handsome but somewhat inte... intelleck... inteligentiälectuälistically chä... chäll... You get it, a Norwegian whatever, ook?

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Dafyd
Shipmate
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I PMed the former regulars that I could think of who have posted on the ship in the last month, but who hadn't posted in the Circus. One of them joined in, so I'm glad I did; but nobody else.

We have fourteen players at the moment. I think that's enough; more people would be welcome, but I think the people who have already signed up might like to get started. I'm disinclined to wait any longer than this evening before beginning. I think if people are interested they can spectate and join in next time.

[ 28. February 2014, 13:09: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Eliab
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Roles:

Fewer mafia is better. It means the mafia can't pack out nominations in the end game or make successful lynching hard with a block vote. It also makes the legitimate mafias trick of a willing sacrifice or a false role claim genuinely costly.

Doctors who can self-protect are more powerful than you might think.

Investigators who are expressly permitted to talk by PM are more powerful than you might think.

Multiple investigators/doctors are very powerful - probably unbalancingly so (although game balance is much overrated, IMHO). In setting those roles, it's a good idea to ask how much the 'town' side could find out, and how quickly, and how good the mafia need to be at killing off specials not to go into the end-game on losing numbers (the mafia lose if the town can be certain of the innocence of a majority of survivors). Roles (like 'Mason') who can vouch for each others' innocence are powerful for the same reason, though much less so than having multiple detectives/doctors. Multiple doctors kill because if a detective makes a role claim, that gives him two more turns of investigation even with best play from the mafia at finding and killing his protectors.

Mafia traitors are ridiculously powerful. Use with caution. Town traitors are fun, though, and subtly undermine detective's confidence in early findings of innocence (so use one if you want the detective to be able to expose the guilty, but hate my favourite tactic of the town playing for a 'weight of metal' win not by finding the mafia but by clearing as many people as possible).

Experience shows that as a general rule, it's easy for the mafia players to spot the detective than for the detective to spot the mafia. I don't know why this should be. It doesn't seem to matter much how experienced the particular players are, the detective is killed on night 1 or 2 much more frequently than random chance might predict.

For the Ypres game, I had a large number of special roles that weren't linked to allegience - everyone got two die rolls: one to say whether they were Innocent/Mafia/Detective/Traitor and one to say whether they had the special abilities of Airman/Sapper/Artillerist/etc. I thought that worked well, and that the roles were sufficiently low-powered that it gave lots more players secret abilities but didn't distort the game.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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An die Freude
Shipmate
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Joostein boows hæd befoore wise woords oof Oodin, oor whätever Being oof Poower be. He knew too spoot when soomeoone wielded bigger Bloont Oobjectimoom thän he woould ever doo, äs wäs seldoom cäse but noow moore thän ever. Mäy Oosloo tremble ät thoought of mässive Däfyd-being!

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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH

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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153

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Should add that if you a town traitor, their win condition should be considered carefully. In the game I ran, the traitor could not share in a town win, so had to find the mafia and defect. A role that allows the traitor to choose which side to join once, and potentially win with either, risks making that player a kingmaker. Which can be fun if that's what you want, of course.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

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Thoughts
(a)
Banner Lady made an interesting post on sexism in mafia, noting that the villains had targetted 2 females.
I don't think it was vastly significant in terms of who died (at that point) this game
but combined with other games may add up to a trend.
It wouldn't be inconceivable for there to be some tendencies (though whether real life or character gender dominates)
and how the effects go...? Anyone else have any thoughts.

(b)
To lynch or not to lynch.
When I was desperately trying to find a loophole in the 2 detectives power
I was desperately drawing tables.
The recursive formulae is shorter and prettier, but you'll either find it trivial or hard to make use of.
So heres a description of an excel sheet for mafia and innocents playing a very simple stragety.
quote:

The top row (C2:Z2) lists the number of mafia alive it ranges from 0 to 23
The left column (B3:B50) lists the number of innocents alive, it ranges from -1 to 46
The second row (D3:Z3) contains 0 this represents the probaility of a innocent win if there are no mafia alive
The second column (C5:C50) contains 1 this represents the probaility of a innocent win if there are no mafia alive
The intersection (C4) also contains 1 as this actually represents a villager who didn't die because the mafia are dead
The other intersection (C3) doesn't matter
In cell C5 is this formulae =$B5/($B5+D$2)*D3+D$2/($B5+D$2)*C4
It is dragged out to fill the rest of the space

The stragety of the innocents is to role a shared dice with everyones name on it, they lynch whoever comes up, without question.
The stragety of the mafia is to kill an innocent. Due to these strageties the history is irrelevant.

The innocents have a chance of killing an innocent. If that occurs the game is the same as one with the same number of mafia but 2 less innocents
The innocents have a chance of killing a mafia. If that occurs the game is the same as one with one less mafia but also one less innocent
(the cases with one mafia or one innocents are different but the same formulae works as all victories are the same, if we include the -1 row)
The formulae given represents the chance of each of those events combined with the chance of winning if they occur

It has some interesting features. Notably a massive zig-zap pattern.
This suggests that there may be a strong incentive to miss a turn if on the wrong phase.

Also as there were 14 of us and 4 baddies the innocents ought to have won (20%) of the time playing randomly
This is with them ignoring the fact that they have a doctor and detectives on their side.
I wonder how this compares to actual play.

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