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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Debt, Debt, Debt
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Next month I will graduate with my MDiv.
Like many students who did their studies full-time, I took out student loans. I won't write how much, but let's say I took out a substantive amount and I see myself paying my loans for at least the next 10 years.
Spiritually, how does one deal with being in debt? My friends/mentors tell me that most people in society are indebted and there is nothing to feel guilty about. Still, there is the lingering feeling that if I could have budgeted better or delayed my education, I could have took out less debt.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
As one who has acquired too much debt, both student loans and others, the repayment of such feels like penance enough. All told, not including the mortgage, I'm repaying about £500-600 a month and there will be a definite sense of relief in about 4 years time when the bulk of that is paid off.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I paid off my student loans quickly and we no longer have a mortgage on my house having paid it off. Credit card balances are paid monthly. I often think that debt must be an awful burden on some. I know the absence of it feels quite good.
[ 28. April 2014, 18:23: Message edited by: Caissa ]
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I would say that if you can pay off your educational debts in 10 years, you're not doing too badly. In the United States we've hit the situation where people are getting their Social Security (Old Age Pension) attached to pay for outstanding student loans they took out for themselves or cosigned for their children.
Part of this is realizing that the fact you have debt and how much there is, is in part due to your decisions and in part due to the society you live in deciding how expensive school should be.
As for timing and being less extravagant, it doesn't do too much good to berate yourself for past behavior. Learn what you can about mistakes to avoid in the future and let the rest go.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
it's also true that there are situations in which you have no choice. Around here, a college degree is de rigeur for anything more than burger flipping, yet it is virtually impossible to gain without debt, regardless of how you scrimp or work. And I'm looking at what will probably be a nasty medical debt for a crisis that happened when I was (and am) unemployed.
I think that if you can look back and say that you reasonably did what you could (you weren't extravagant, you were dealing with basics), then you need not feel guilty. You certainly can pray for help. Remember the prophet who died in Elisha's day and left a huge load of debt to his wife and young sons? Elisha did a miracle to prevent the children being sold as slaves, but there is no suggestion that the prophet (most likely similar to a seminarian) should have somehow avoided the debt trap in the first place.
Shit happens. God is merciful
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Mainline denominations are content to have second career clergy but then wonder where the young people are. I would have never been able to earn enough money to put myself through seminary. Working was not allowed. We felt called to be priests. We did what it took to become priests. Simple as that.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I am a consumer bankruptcy attorney with a little less than five years to go on my student loans, so I get to experience this from a number of angles. How you deal with it varies from person to person. Some people lose sleep over a little debt, some people owe millions of dollars all around town and sleep like babies.
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. I find that writing down your known income and expenses for each month or week helps to give you a sense of control over your finances and lessens the stress which leads to lost sleep. You get good at doing strategic grocery shopping trips, and making enough to not have to eat out for lunch. You may have to turn down brunch with friends sometimes, but don't forget to budget it in from time to time. Some people have a hard time living mindfully. It's your only option.
Your budget will probably not leave you with much to give to the church, so stewardship season sermons can be a bit painful to listen to. As someone with a job that requires a graduate degree, you feel like people expect you to contribute generously, but you just can't. So find ways of giving time and talent. And every once in a while, you get the opportunity to really give sacrificially. They always talk about it in those sermons, but when you look at a weekly budget and say that you are going to forgo a few pleasures for a few weeks so that you can contribute to the food shelter, you get a real concrete sense of what it means to give sacrificially.
You don't need the fancy phone that everyone has. You don't need cable. Ignore your Facebook friends who seem to go on vacation about once a month (or ignore Facebook altogether- probably a good idea).
And to avoid what I think is a common problem suffered by people who get graduate degrees, remember that even with a graduate degree you start on the bottom of the totem poll and have to work your way up. I see too many people who are unhappy because they thought the degree was a work around- it isn't.
And remember the blessings that you do have. For one thing, how many people actually get to go to graduate school? You have an advantage that will help you get out of this debt. Take charge, don't get stressed out, work hard, and get it paid off. You can do it.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
A fellow newly ordained priest saddled with student loan debt said he felt like his student loan payments were a part of his tithe. Made sense to Mother Beeswax Altar and me. We've adopted that policy ever since.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I am a consumer bankruptcy attorney with a little less than five years to go on my student loans, so I get to experience this from a number of angles. How you deal with it varies from person to person. Some people lose sleep over a little debt, some people owe millions of dollars all around town and sleep like babies.
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible. I find that writing down your known income and expenses for each month or week helps to give you a sense of control over your finances and lessens the stress which leads to lost sleep. You get good at doing strategic grocery shopping trips, and making enough to not have to eat out for lunch. You may have to turn down brunch with friends sometimes, but don't forget to budget it in from time to time. Some people have a hard time living mindfully. It's your only option.
Your budget will probably not leave you with much to give to the church, so stewardship season sermons can be a bit painful to listen to. As someone with a job that requires a graduate degree, you feel like people expect you to contribute generously, but you just can't. So find ways of giving time and talent. And every once in a while, you get the opportunity to really give sacrificially. They always talk about it in those sermons, but when you look at a weekly budget and say that you are going to forgo a few pleasures for a few weeks so that you can contribute to the food shelter, you get a real concrete sense of what it means to give sacrificially.
You don't need the fancy phone that everyone has. You don't need cable. Ignore your Facebook friends who seem to go on vacation about once a month (or ignore Facebook altogether- probably a good idea).
And to avoid what I think is a common problem suffered by people who get graduate degrees, remember that even with a graduate degree you start on the bottom of the totem poll and have to work your way up. I see too many people who are unhappy because they thought the degree was a work around- it isn't.
And remember the blessings that you do have. For one thing, how many people actually get to go to graduate school? You have an advantage that will help you get out of this debt. Take charge, don't get stressed out, work hard, and get it paid off. You can do it.
Great post. Useful advice for everyone.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
Anglican Brat,
Where do you owe the money, US or Canada?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Anglican Brat,
Where do you owe the money, US or Canada?
Canada
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
A fellow newly ordained priest saddled with student loan debt said he felt like his student loan payments were a part of his tithe. Made sense to Mother Beeswax Altar and me. We've adopted that policy ever since.
Rarely agree with you - but on this I agree 100%
Additionally, the C of E had a rule that no debt could be ordained until he paid off all his debts. That changed when self-supporting ministers were appointed while still paying off their mortgages.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
I heard Dave Ramsey say once 'common sense is now a marketable commodity' (paraphrase).
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
@OP
Student debt is a real problem. 40 years ago, students didn't have debts. Why? What changed?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
What changed was the relationship between summer earning power and the cost of tuition fees.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think the problem is more complicated but not much. Governments decided that 'user pay' was the Way. Corporations received the money instead, and they still are.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Could this be a place where the Church could find relevance to young adults?
Not just pushing for policy change in terms of loan forgiveness, dischargeability of loans in bankruptcy, or cost of education. I'm thinking about reaching out to those of us out here who are dealing with student debt right now. Helping people to find peace in stress. Helping us to find spiritual discipline in budgeting. Helping us to find ways to contribute to the church through service when we can't afford to give money.
A few years back, the local Cathedral offered a class for parents and kids called "save spend share." It was about teaching kids how to look at money and how to make responsible and spiritually-conscious decisions with money. Maybe similar programming for young adults is in order.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The church could stop acting as if it believed God only calls the rich and retired to ordained ministry. OK...that would help only a few people. I'm not bitter. Maybe a little. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I think the problem is more complicated but not much. Governments decided that 'user pay' was the Way. Corporations received the money instead, and they still are.
The federal government is the one making the dough off of education debt.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
There are plenty of private lenders out there as well.
But I'm telling you that you could do a lot by leaving behind the causes of the problem for a bit (not forever) and asking how you can help the people around you dealing with the problem. The Church offers support groups for people dealing with aging parents, for people dealing with loss, for people dealing with clutter in their lives. Why not do something more for your young adults than let them organize their own events and hope that they start making babies for that Sunday School you really want? Reach out to them and give them support and concrete ideas for making it through the debt.
We tell people that money problems are big, money problems are serious, money problems are scary, and money problems can seem overwhelming, but that if you take charge of them, money problems are solvable. The Church is in a good place to tell people the same thing, and I think it might find that the kind of life that you live while living on a student-loan-payment budget is quite mindful and spiritual.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
There are plenty of private lenders out there as well.
Yes, but they own a very small portion of the total education debt when compared to the federal government. My PLUS loans are at 7.9-8.5%.
quote:
But I'm telling you that you could do a lot by leaving behind the causes of the problem for a bit (not forever) and asking how you can help the people around you dealing with the problem.
There are several folks I'm helping out with this and there are websites, such as askheatherjarvis.com where folks go with their problems for creative solutions.
quote:
The Church offers support groups for people dealing with aging parents, for people dealing with loss, for people dealing with clutter in their lives. Why not do something more for your young adults than let them organize their own events and hope that they start making babies for that Sunday School you really want? Reach out to them and give them support and concrete ideas for making it through the debt.
We tell people that money problems are big, money problems are serious, money problems are scary, and money problems can seem overwhelming, but that if you take charge of them, money problems are solvable. The Church is in a good place to tell people the same thing, and I think it might find that the kind of life that you live while living on a student-loan-payment budget is quite mindful and spiritual.
It seems that most people in our congregation know what everyone does for a living and many folks find it hard to bring up the subject about what they can do for others because, well, I don't bring up my work to others because I don't want to run the risk of being perceived as going to church to drum up business. They know what I do. If they need my services, they approach me, and some do.
Those support groups you mentioned all deal with issues other than money. People get funny about money and a struggle in that area can be very embarrassing to admit and is often very complicated. If you know of ways a congregation can have such a support group with out it being, or being perceived as being, a place for financial pros to drum up business, I'd love to hear about them.
I hope you do visit the Heather Jarvis website and if you know of similar or better ones, I'd appreciate you letting me know of them.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
@OP
Student debt is a real problem. 40 years ago, students didn't have debts. Why? What changed?
Cost of education. I paid my way through my bachelor's degree. That's impossible now at the state university I graduated from. A student cannot possibly earn enough to pay their tuition as they go the way I did.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Cost of education. I paid my way through my bachelor's degree. That's impossible now at the state university I graduated from. A student cannot possibly earn enough to pay their tuition as they go the way I did.
The economics of universities are rather opaque.
In real terms, the cost of a year at a 4-year college has doubled in the last 25 years (source: here. The effective cost to students has risen more, because we no longer have high inflation to inflate the debt away.
Some of the cost increase is due to the withdrawal of government subsidies from universities, but this cannot be the major cost driver. A chunk of it has gone to produce bloated administrations - part of this is to do with compliance with federal regulations, part is to do with the fact that today's undergraduates seem to need much more hand-holding than those of a generation ago, and part is just nonsense. Oh, and then there's college sports, which are a big money sink for basically every institution, but somehow everyone has to have the shiny new stadium anyway.
But perhaps the real answer is that prices increased because they can. Students keep on taking out big loans and going to college, so there's no incentive for colleges to control costs. Add in the student aid shell game that does a much better job at extracting the maximum possible amount of money from each individual student than a generation ago, and you have the current system.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Some of the cost increase is due to the withdrawal of government subsidies from universities, but this cannot be the major cost driver. A chunk of it has gone to produce bloated administrations - part of this is to do with compliance with federal regulations, part is to do with the fact that today's undergraduates seem to need much more hand-holding than those of a generation ago, and part is just nonsense.
I work for a University in the UK, and have stayed out of this thread thus far because our circumstances are somewhat different to those in the US.
I would, however, agree with what you say about governmental regulations and the support expectations of modern students (both undergraduates and postgraduates). There are so many extra requirements being placed on us by people who seem to think we should be able to do more and more without it costing them any extra.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think makes up the "nonsense" part of university administration though - I can't think of much that my university administration is doing that we don't really need to do. Could you expand on what you mean by that?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
@OP
Student debt is a real problem. 40 years ago, students didn't have debts. Why? What changed?
What has changed in the UK is the number of students; when I was at University 25 years ago, my local authority paid my tuition fees and would have given me a grant for my living expenses if my parents had not been able to. Back then, however, only about 10-12% of each cohort went to college. Now it is 50% and the state cannot afford to pay for that many students without raising taxes or cutting other services. Student loans for living expenses came in while I was still at college but undergraduate tuition fees were still paid for by the student's local council.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Tuition fees at the university I started as a student at in 1981 are now more than 6 times higher than what I paid in first year.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
What has changed in the UK is the number of students; when I was at University 25 years ago, my local authority paid my tuition fees and would have given me a grant for my living expenses if my parents had not been able to. Back then, however, only about 10-12% of each cohort went to college. Now it is 50% and the state cannot afford to pay for that many students without raising taxes or cutting other services.
Related to increasing student numbers is the number of graduates in the job market. Which means that employers that used to take direct from school can now have their pick of graduates. Which means those jobs now "need" a degree (in many cases they don't ... but if you had the choice between someone with and without a degree which one appears more qualified?). Which means that to get on the employment ladder kids go to university, which means the number of students increases further. A vicious spiral, which cuts those unable to go to university consigned to the most menial of jobs.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
And of course means graduate earnings are lower, so many graduates never pay off their student loans...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And of course means graduate earnings are lower, so many graduates never pay off their student loans...
...which means the government is effectively paying a portion of the tuition fees for those students anyway.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
... but rather than paying them directly, wastes several decades and rather a lot of money trying to get the student loans back.
Still, it does help to grow the economy. All those extra admin jobs, for a start...
[ 01. May 2014, 13:05: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
... but rather than paying them directly, wastes several decades and rather a lot of money trying to get the student loans back.
Not so. The student loan system as currently set up requires no more effort than would a graduate tax, so it's not wasting any time or money in that sense. And it means that the governmt can recoup at least some of the costs from the graduates, even if that's not always all of the costs.
Of course, all the administration of student loans is done by the Student Loans Company and thus does not impact on the admin costs of universities themselves - which means the fee per student would have to stay the same regardless of how the government chose to fund it.
And because it's impossible to predict which students will become higher- or lower-earning graduates in advance, it's not like the government can offer up-front discounts to the latter.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Part of the additional administration no doubt consists of applying for research funding. Although the time spent on that seems to come out of already existing person-hours that would previously be spent on research rather than out of increased person-hours.
I feel somewhere about the problem is a shift in the public justification for universities and tertiary education. These days university research is funded on the grounds that it produces economic benefits (impact) to society. Tertiary education is a service whose benefit to the student is their ability to get a better job, and whose benefit to society is the increased supply of students who can do better jobs. A university whose justification is along those lines is going to have a more profit-oriented attitude to money than one that sees itself as pursuing the liberal arts.
There is also a general belief throughout the managerial parts of society that the measure of a manager's success is the amount of money that flows through his (sic) fingers and sticks. There being no such thing as an unearned bonus.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Part of the additional administration no doubt consists of applying for research funding. Although the time spent on that seems to come out of already existing person-hours that would previously be spent on research rather than out of increased person-hours.
Apply for research income always has been part of doing research. I'm not sure that the time spent applying for research rather than doing research has increased significantly over the last few decades. And, even if it has, done properly the leg work for a research proposal is part of what's done within the previous research project which just means the costs of a few extra days work preparing proposals is slipped into the costs of another (related) research project. That income stream operates independently of income from teaching students. In most cases it'll probably work the other way round - RAs employed to do research with their salaries from research grants end up doing teaching, thus reducing the costs the university needs to recoup from fees.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
My wife who is a professor would disagree Allen. It is necessary to collaborate more, with more from within institution and from others. So quite a bit more time
Re debt for students. Loans in Canada are managed by banks, not the gov't. Student loans were direct with gov't in the 1970s and were not needed in the 60s. I could work in the summer and earn enough for tuition, books and expenses.
Wealth has exceeded the importance of income in our countries, ie, making money via investments. According to an article I read on the boat to Greenwich today, while spending some of my wealth. With the breakdown of things that formerly assured better opportunity such as unions, taxes on capital gains, and regulation, we have more financial inequality than we did when I was young.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
My wife who is a professor would disagree Allen. It is necessary to collaborate more, with more from within institution and from others. So quite a bit more time
It may depend on discipline and research area. My doctoral work two decades ago was multi-institutional (infact, international) involving scientists from 4-5, sometimes more, universities/labs. The papers I read from the decade or more before that were multi-authored with several research groups.
What has changed over the last 20 years is the internet. When I was doing my PhD it was new, we had email but didn't use it as much as I do now. Papers were printed out and sent to journals in envelopes, and papers were received for review the same way. Likewise for research grant applications. Much of the correspondence with collaborators, including grant applications, was done by phone and fax, often needing a face to face meeting (which when your collaborators are the other side of an ocean isn't that easy). Now we send everything via email or dedicated web portals. It cuts down on the time it takes to organise things collaboratively.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And of course means graduate earnings are lower, so many graduates never pay off their student loans...
...which means the government is effectively paying a portion of the tuition fees for those students anyway.
That was never the intention. Taxpayers, graduates and non-graduates alike, will have to pay for this error. They are like PFIs in that respect.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That was never the intention. Taxpayers, graduates and non-graduates alike, will have to pay for this error. They are like PFIs in that respect.
Granted. But when the people arguing against the system are saying that the government should pay all of the fees, they can't really complain about it on the grounds that the system results in the government having to pay some of them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What has changed over the last 20 years is the internet. When I was doing my PhD it was new, we had email but didn't use it as much as I do now. Papers were printed out and sent to journals in envelopes, and papers were received for review the same way. Likewise for research grant applications. Much of the correspondence with collaborators, including grant applications, was done by phone and fax, often needing a face to face meeting (which when your collaborators are the other side of an ocean isn't that easy). Now we send everything via email or dedicated web portals. It cuts down on the time it takes to organise things collaboratively.
The internet didn't exist when I did my PhD 30 years ago (we did have NetNorth, at 300 baud via telephone modem). Did when wife did her's this decade. Certainly having to take manuscripts and reports to a typist was more cumbersome, and dictated text can be typed by someone living and working anywhere. Professionally, we're finding in my office that compliance issues, with technology enabling more checking up on us and furthet audit, takes lots more time. Though being in in business means we simply charge more for services. Which doesn't seem nice.
Here's a link to the issues: http://phys.org/news318177329.html
(Sorry to continue the tangent. )
[code]
[ 02. May 2014, 16:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I've spent my life around universities, and I can comment on some of this.
One part of the problem is that students are expected (or think they are) to buy laptops, tablets, Kindle devices, etc. This contributes to the start-up cost of going to college. We also find (at least at my school) many students who commute; they must have cars and buy gas. People may not think of that as part of the cost of going to college, but it's more common than it was.
Another part of the problem is that the universities themselves have money troubles. In some fields, they compete with private industry to hire good people. Professors in law or medicine may be the highest-paid employees at a school, to match the income they could otherwise earn in private practice. In other fields, technological advances cost money. If you want to teach XBox programming, you presumably have to buy some XBoxes. To stay competitive, you may have to spend a lot on gadgets. This applies to fields in science, medicine, engineering, TV/film studies, etc.
Of course, in some fields, costs may be more or less the same as ever. If you want to learn philosophy, you spend your time reading and listening and talking, and many of the classics are available in cheap editions. For some reason, schools do not charge less tuition for these less expensive fields. (To suggest that would be provocative and perhaps belongs in a new thread).
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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