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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Every Woman is a little bit Lezzy AKA the Sliding Scale of Sexual Attraction
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
On the Huntington Post, Cameron Diaz has said all women have been sexually attracted to another woman at some point.
This would imply, to me, that attraction is fluid.
Though I do agree this is the case for some, I would argue against this is the case for all.
And I would allow that women, in general are more open to exploration than men. If only that it is not seen to be as threatening.
So, are there fixed point on the scale for some?
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
When did Cameron Diaz become omniscient? Is there a pill you can take?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not saying she is, but I have heard this claim before. It is a common male fantasy as well. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And on this site, people speak of fluidity of gender attraction in humans. Just want to hear what people think.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Starlight
Shipmate
# 12651
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Posted
This is a matter of ongoing research and debate. But based on some of the existing scientific evidence, some researchers do indeed hold the view that all (or nearly all) women are bisexual. Women are vastly more likely than men to report that their self-identified sexuality has changed over time, and that at some point in their lives they regarded themselves as straight and that at some other point they were attracted to another woman.
Meanwhile there is ongoing debate over whether bisexuality actually exists for men. Some researchers have found that men can be pretty clearly divided into heterosexual and homosexual categories (without the need for a bisexual category), and that those identities for men are extremely fixed and permanent. Apparent instances of bisexuality are usually explained, by those with this view, as either being homosexual men who are partially in the closet, or being homosexual men whose sex drive is so high that they have sex with women who they are not attracted to in addition to sex with men who they are attracted to.
Those findings have not been robustly replicated by other studies...
Posts: 745 | From: NZ | Registered: May 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Since we're all, male, female, choose-your-label, products of our culture, and since the wider culture aggressively markets women as sex objects all over the landscape, it would hardly be surprising if many women grew up "educated" to respond sexually at least a bit to images of women and perhaps flesh-and-blood women. We're practically trained from birth to see women that way.
I've certainly found myself feeling faint stirrings in response to other women (in erotic movie scenes, for example; don't think I've felt this toward someone in the flesh). It's a rather confused response, though; it seems to be a mix of attraction to as well as identification with that Other. It's at least as much, perhaps more, imagining myself in her shoes (and on the receiving end of the sexual attention) as it is wishing to pay some sort of sexual attention to her myself.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Flip side of that is that all lesbians must therefore have been sexually attracted to a man at some point. I know I'm only a sample of one, but it isn't true for me. I know plenty of previously married (to a man) lesbians, so I know its true for some.
My best friends (apart from my spouse) are all men so I can say (from my sample of one) there's a big difference between liking and being attracted.
I'm with Mousethief though, Cameron Diaz???
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When did Cameron Diaz become omniscient? Is there a pill you can take?
Or at least a poll.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When did Cameron Diaz become omniscient? Is there a pill you can take?
Or at least a poll.
A poll couldn't tell you that ALL women were anything. That would require omniscience.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When did Cameron Diaz become omniscient? Is there a pill you can take?
Or at least a poll.
A poll couldn't tell you that ALL women were anything. That would require omniscience.
No, I know. I was just quipping to the effect that she doesn't even meet THAT standard for finding out people's views.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I was just quipping to the effect that she doesn't even meet THAT standard for finding out people's views.
Gotcha.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Oy! The Cameron Diaz article was the trigger for this post, not the basis. I should not have included it, perhaps.
However as I have said, this is not merely her opinion, but one I hear relatively often. It is not really my experience either. My friends mostly identify straight or gay.*
But I associate with people, not communities, so I don't claim to be an expert.
*Well, and a couple that will shag anything that doesn't run fast enough.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think Porridge could be closer to the truth than Cameron Diaz here...
Starlight, the "research" you quote that claimed bisexuality did not exist in men sounds more like special pleading to me.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
There was a recent article in the New York Times about theovement to prove that male bisexuality does in fact exist. Since the stigma to male same-sex sexual behavior is greater than that for women, it makes sense that many male bisexuals would not be public with their attraction to men, especially if they are in a relationship with a woman. I think that the number of self-identifying male bisexuals will increase as social attitudes change. The sad thing is that all surveys and studies trying to identify how much of the population is a given sexual orientation are plagued by so many difficulties that it is hard to treat them as reliable. If a man says he is bi, but doesn't have the expected response on the erection-o-meter when they show him straight or lesbian porn - but he still has and enjoys sex with women as well as men - does that really mean that he is just a very horny gay man? What business do we have labeling people in this way? I think the point coming out of the closet is letting people know that people like me are not straight - so we won't be afraid to talk about our same sex partners just like straight people talk about their opposite sex partners. If someone isn't straight, that does not mean that having sex or a relationship with someone of the opposite sex is any less pleasurable or meaningful than with someone of the same sex. Gays are so worried of other people thinking that they can become straight ( justifiedly so) that they contribute to biphobia and bisexual invisibility - especially for men, but bi women are often assumed to be straight girls who experiment, too. I think if everyone who has sex with men is assumed to be "girly" and therefore having sex with a woman is a fluke for them rather than the norm, it is less threatening to the patriarchal culture. True bisexuality, which I think really exists for both sexes, is threatening to traditional norms in a way that homosexuality is not - a person can be attracted to both sexes and yet still fall in love with and have a long term relationship with someone if the same sex despite the social stigma. This "threat" is why bisexuals are still portrayed in fiction as unstable nymphomaniacs who are often villains.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
*Well, and a couple that will shag anything that doesn't run fast enough.
This sounds rather uncomfortably like you're describing rapists.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If a man says he is bi, but doesn't have the expected response on the erection-o-meter when they show him straight or lesbian porn - but he still has and enjoys sex with women as well as men - does that really mean that he is just a very horny gay man? What business do we have labeling people in this way?
Yes. This. Thank you. The article mentioned seems the very essence of Procrustes' Bed.
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
It is probably relatively obvious, but we should probably note also that most of us were trained from childhood to assume we were straight. By the time I realized I was also attracted to women, I was in a very happy relationship with a man whom I eventually married. So I am one of the many women who no one will ever think of as bi unless they happen to ask us, and generally one doesn't ever need to.
I suspect that if I had stayed in the very conservative circles where I went through high school, I would have repressed that I've ever been attracted to a woman. How many people are similar?
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have little to contribute to this discussion but to simply refer that a friend of mine declared herself to be omnisexual. When this was announced at the table, a male guest (whom I had always assumed to be gay) informed us that his current partner was so, but he could never understand that approach. Looking for something harmless to say, I just quoted Marguereite Yourcenar who, in her With Open Eyes (les Yeux Overts, interviews with Mathieu Gaily) said that the quality of the relationship was the important factor and that the plumbing (much more elegant in French) was irrelevant.
I would also suggest that the goalposts (as it were) of western society are shifting rather more rapidly than we think on this. The sentiments of my women friends, twenty years ago only hinted at through vague references and the shifting of eyes, are now openly discussed and received.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It is probably relatively obvious, but we should probably note also that most of us were trained from childhood to assume we were straight.
Default behaviours are difficult to separate out, yes. But how does attraction go completely unnoticed? I can understand once in a relationship. But outside of that?
I am not doubting you, and observation shows few people truly examine their lives, but regarding something so fundamental?
Just difficult to fathom, for me.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
*Well, and a couple that will shag anything that doesn't run fast enough.
This sounds rather uncomfortably like you're describing rapists.
Eewww, no. It was hyperbole to say they are not particular and they are very randy. They are actually very respectful, though. It is that if one encounters them in a social setting they will very likely ask or hint. But they do understand and accept No.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It is probably relatively obvious, but we should probably note also that most of us were trained from childhood to assume we were straight.
Default behaviours are difficult to separate out, yes. But how does attraction go completely unnoticed? I can understand once in a relationship. But outside of that?
I am not doubting you, and observation shows few people truly examine their lives, but regarding something so fundamental?
Just difficult to fathom, for me.
I can say that for myself I only finally figured it out (after spending years at a particularly liberal college with many LGBT and Q people) when a particular person (and her physical attributes) kept entering my mind when I didn't expect them to. Believe it or not I whenever I happened to notice that, I was puzzled about it for weeks before it occurred to me that perhaps she was in my head because I was attracted to her. I think it just wasn't a possibility to me anymore than arial swine.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
There was a recent article in the New York Times about theovement to prove that male bisexuality does in fact exist. Since the stigma to male same-sex sexual behavior is greater than that for women, it makes sense that many male bisexuals would not be public with their attraction to men, especially if they are in a relationship with a woman.
That is almost exactly what I was going to say.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
Boy, oh boy. I could live a hundred lifetimes and never, ever want to hear that term, "Lezzie". I absolutely despise that term. Just thought I'd throw that into the discussion... carry on.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Despisement noted.
Meanwhile, back at the ol' who's-attracted-to-whom-and-how ranch, somebody remind me why this matters?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Well, a sliding scale would imply a binary which doesn't actually exist. Those (like myself) who are attracted to those of all genders, including those outside of the male-female binary, are not really accurately described as being on a sliding scale.
As has been noted, there is deep stigma against bisexuality even in the LGBTQ community, more against bisexual men but also just in general. And female same-gender relationships have been more objectified and the subject of the male gaze than male same-gender relationships, but that does not mean 'more accepted'. LGBTQ women who do not conform to heterosexual male fantasy standards (eg butch lesbian women) are definitely not any more accepted.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Response to Porridge
Why does it matter? Well, never said it did.
I guess you could say I am why-curious.
My sexual preference is fixed to one part of the scale. I have examined this and an as confident as I can be that it will not likely change. I do not go both ways, in other words and have no desire to do so, repressed or otherwise. I do not truly care if I am an exception or the rule, but that does not inhibit my curiosity.
My general rule is whatever floats the little man in the boat is fine, as long as it hurts no one.
Oh, hey, The5thMary, the term bothers me a bit as well, but I wrote the title to provoke discussion.
[ 31. March 2014, 22:01: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
LGBTQ women who do not conform to heterosexual male fantasy standards (eg butch lesbian women) are definitely not any more accepted.
Not any more accepted than what?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Well, a sliding scale would imply a binary which doesn't actually exist.
Oy! pick a metaphor you like, then. The basic point is how fixed is orientation? And is such generalisation as in the OP example anywhere near true?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Gwai's story is rather like my own. Having grown up in a very conservative Christian household, where I was not allowed access to any media (including newspapers) except the classical music radio station, I had never heard of homosexuality, nor did I understand it as a possibility for myself.
Thus, by the time I left school, I had decided I was going to be single for the rest of my life, having not met any boys or men I found attractive. I had noticed I liked some women, but I had no framework for that attraction. I just really liked them.
It took about 2 minutes of being away from home and starting to read the news for me to drop to the reality!
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
LGBTQ women who do not conform to heterosexual male fantasy standards (eg butch lesbian women) are definitely not any more accepted.
Not any more accepted than what?
Sorry, not any more accepted than male homosexuality.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
My best friends (apart from my spouse) are all men so I can say (from my sample of one) there's a big difference between liking and being attracted.
I find that a very interesting observation as I was only last week talking to someone about how I don't really have any men friends, at least of my own. The men I would count as friends are primarily Mr Nen's friends who I also get along with. I'm still getting my head round why that's the case.
Regarding the OP, in recent years I've realised that sexuality and attraction are far more fluid than I'd given them credit for and when someone who identifies as bisexual (I didn't realise there was a stigma attached to this and wonder why that is?) suggested that it seemed to her to be the only sensible way because you fall in love with the person regardless of the bits they keep in their underwear, it made perfect sense to me. Mr Nen doesn't understand that at all, and nor does a lesbian friend of mine - but her partner, who previous to that relationship had a number of successful relationships with men, does.
My experience is of course limited but I'd say more straight women can relate to attraction to other women than straight men can relate to attraction to other men.
And, Jade, I do want to acknowledge and honour that some people don't fall into any of these categories but everyone I know does fall into them (as far as I'm aware) so I can only speak from limited personal experience.
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Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I generally give the distinct side-eye to ANYONE who likes to start sentences with "all women have -" or "all men like -" etc. I dislike gender essentialism. I dislike the idea that you can use someone's gender (or gender presentation for that matter, because who actually knows what might be going on in their brains?) to tell you anything meaningful about them. It may very well be that women, on average, do experience a greater level of fluidity in their sexual orientation. But there are plenty of people out there who'll say that their sexual orientation very much only comes down on one side. How do we deal with these people? Do we really want to step in and say "my generalisation trumps your lived experience"? And if we do go for that argument, how is it any different from arguments like "But all women want kids! It's basic biological fact!" or "Of course men can't be faithful! EVOLUTION!"
I'm also amazed that there is any debate that male bisexuality exists. Are there men who identify as bisexual? Yes. Then it exists. It may be more or less prevalent than female bisexuality but once you start on the "he SAYS he's bi, but he clearly isn't, because men aren't so he must be mistaken" line of things you're being both unscientific and patronising as hell.
Quite aside from the fact that gender identity is itself massively complicated. It's not a binary; it's not even a spectrum really - it's more of a kind of gender soup.
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Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
attraction are far more fluid than I'd given them credit for and when someone who identifies as bisexual (I didn't realise there was a stigma attached to this and wonder why that is?)
Insecurity for one, I think. For another, there appears to be a belief that bisexuals are more likely to cheat. And some gay people believe there is no such thing as bisexual and those who claim to be so are deluded or trying to game the system, somehow. And lend ammunition to the gay can be changed brigade. IME, anyway.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Very well said, Liopleurodon.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
People suck.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
It makes some sort of basal-identity, Neanderthal, subconscious sense, that's why.
If MY sexual identity / orientation is the RIGHT (read REAL or ONLY) one, then the rest of the sexual world must naturally line up with it (or UN-naturally fail to do so) accordingly (because that maximizes my potential sexual options).
IOW, the "ideal" sexuality for humanity is clearly gay or lesbian for gays / lesbians; heterosexual for heterosexuals; bisexual for bisexuals (not seeing, at the mo, how this works for transsexual folks).
I suspect, that at the same primal, basal. subconscious level, bisexual people pose a real threat to all those who aren't; they have more potential options. Those who lack (or at least perceive themselves as lacking) the "extra" option(s) will therefore regard bi-sexuals with a sort of cell-level hostility.
I've said it before, & I'll say it again: most of us are pretty much baboons about one cell down from the epidermis. It takes precious little to bring our baboon-hood to the surface.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
You can also see that as a boundary transgression. I mean that bisexuals may be seen as threatening, as they straddle the boundary, which people might accept, between hetero and homo.
Maybe the same thing happens with trans people, that they upset some people because they just won't be fixed in one category, but want to shift.
But this can also be expressed in terms of essentialism, as others have said; if you believe in an essential gay identity or woman identity, you might not like interlopers.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
It makes some sort of basal-identity, Neanderthal, subconscious sense, that's why.
If MY sexual identity / orientation is the RIGHT (read REAL or ONLY) one, then the rest of the sexual world must naturally line up with it (or UN-naturally fail to do so) accordingly (because that maximizes my potential sexual options).
IOW, the "ideal" sexuality for humanity is clearly gay or lesbian for gays / lesbians; heterosexual for heterosexuals; bisexual for bisexuals (not seeing, at the mo, how this works for transsexual folks).
I suspect, that at the same primal, basal. subconscious level, bisexual people pose a real threat to all those who aren't; they have more potential options. Those who lack (or at least perceive themselves as lacking) the "extra" option(s) will therefore regard bi-sexuals with a sort of cell-level hostility.
I've said it before, & I'll say it again: most of us are pretty much baboons about one cell down from the epidermis. It takes precious little to bring our baboon-hood to the surface.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'how it works' for transgender people (transsexual is considered out of date since you have gender reassignment not a sex change). Being a transgender person is a matter of gender identity, not sexual orientation, and transgender people identify as all sexual orientations - some straight, some gay, some bi, some pansexual, some queer or another outside-the-binary sexuality. Transgender people are, generally, within the gender binary.
Re bisexual stigma, it's about bisexual invisibility too - it's just not acknowledged half the time, it's just 'gay' or 'straight'. Bisexual is the term I use when I'm not given another option (fairly frequently!) on forms etc. Lots of dating sites, for instance (even very mainstream ones like Match or eHarmony) only let you date as a straight person or a gay person.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Popular culture has been dabbling with this theme for a while .
There was an episode of Vicar of Dibley where Geraldine and Alice were musing over which women they'd sleep with if all men suddenly vanished , (because 'watching football turned out to be poisonous' ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
Only the other day on a popular radio station I heard a female DJ positively promoting bi-sexuality (BS) as if it could be the panacea to all humanity's ills . I think it came about after they were joking about all giraffes being bi-sexual, or something like that.
I suppose it's nothing new , D. H. Lawrence seemed to keep touching on this theme in some of his novels.
Also didn't the Ancient Greeks regard BS ,(among males anyway), as perfectly acceptable and part of a well established cultural norm ?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Popular culture has been dabbling with this theme for a while .
There was an episode of Vicar of Dibley where Geraldine and Alice were musing over which women they'd sleep with if all men suddenly vanished , (because 'watching football turned out to be poisonous' )
Only the other day on a popular radio station I heard a female DJ positively promoting bi-sexuality (BS) as if it could be the panacea to all humanity's ills . I think it came about after they were joking about all giraffes being bi-sexual, or something like that.
I suppose it's nothing new , D. H. Lawrence seemed to keep touching on this theme in some of his novels.
Also didn't the Ancient Greeks regard BS ,(among males anyway), as perfectly acceptable and part of a well established cultural norm ?
Why the use of 'BS'? Bisexuality is one word ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
As for the Ancient Greeks, socially acceptable sexual activity between men was about establishing social dominance and was nothing to do with actual bisexuality - it was behaviour only, not orientation. People are bisexual, not behaviour. Conflating sexual orientation and identity with sexual activity is part of the problem - it limits bisexuality to being seen as sexual experimentation, rather than a legitimate identity of its own. A self-identified straight person having a sexual or romantic encounter with someone of a different gender doesn't make them bisexual - bisexuality is an identity.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Conflating love, beauty and sex is another problem. Because I love my dog. She's very cute.
Ms Diaz is hardly and authority on things other than herself and acting. Does she have an upcoming movie on the subject?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
And where are asexuals in this world of Ms Diaz's? I suppose it could be argued I fancy women as much as men, i.e. not at all.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Asexuals tend not to figure into the vast majority of discussions on sexuality. You are* the really, really, really invisible sexual minority. It's like if one isn't straight or LGBTQ, one doesn't exist. I'm not asexual, but I have friends who are (they told me), and it chaps my sympathetic hide that they are non-entities in roughly 99% (margin of error: big) of conversations on sexuality.
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*as I have no doubt you already know
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
Exactly. We really aren't on anyone's radar. [Url=http://yrieithydd.livejournal.com/130105.html"] The CofE managed to declare we didn't exist, except it wasn't even talking about us[\url] which just shows how invisible we are. I will say this for the Bishop of Birkenhead's minority report in Pilling report: he does actually acknowledge the existence of asexual people.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Ms Diaz is hardly and authority on things other than herself and acting. Does she have an upcoming movie on the subject?
A whole different thread, but yes: since when do celebs get to pontificate on anything and everything, and also get taken seriously by at least some significant percentage of the populace? Frankly, most "artists" I hear interviewed about their art sound like they've got packing-peanuts in their skulls where the brains were meant to go.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
since when do celebs get to pontificate on anything and everything, and also get taken seriously by at least some significant percentage of the populace?
The bigger the box office, the more important it is to listen to them, duh!
The article popped up and it triggered the post. Could have been the ABC, could have been a random person on the street, it just happened to be her.
I was curious as to the Ship response.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
People are bisexual, not behaviour. Conflating sexual orientation and identity with sexual activity is part of the problem - it limits bisexuality to being seen as sexual experimentation, rather than a legitimate identity of its own. A self-identified straight person having a sexual or romantic encounter with someone of a different gender doesn't make them bisexual - bisexuality is an identity.
Is that supposed to read "of the same gender" ?
I kinda thought this debate was about the possibility that all straight people have a low level, or even subconscious attraction to their own gender . Albeit most are unaware of it, and a similar number no doubt would not wish to own up to it , (not on a public forum that is).
Anyone who identifies him/herself as bisexual , which I take to mean as being attracted to both genders equally ? That's fine . I've got no problem with that.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
People are bisexual, not behaviour. Conflating sexual orientation and identity with sexual activity is part of the problem - it limits bisexuality to being seen as sexual experimentation, rather than a legitimate identity of its own. A self-identified straight person having a sexual or romantic encounter with someone of a different gender doesn't make them bisexual - bisexuality is an identity.
Is that supposed to read "of the same gender" ?
I kinda thought this debate was about the possibility that all straight people have a low level, or even subconscious attraction to their own gender . Albeit most are unaware of it, and a similar number no doubt would not wish to own up to it , (not on a public forum that is).
Anyone who identifies him/herself as bisexual , which I take to mean as being attracted to both genders equally ? That's fine . I've got no problem with that.
Well I'm glad to see that you at least now realise that bisexual is one word.
And no, I meant what I wrote - I meant it in the context of being attracted to a different gender to the gender one is usually attracted to, sorry for any confusion. And no, bisexual doesn't only mean being attracted to two genders equally (there are more than two genders). Some bisexual people are, but not all. Many are attracted to two genders but one more than the other. Many are also attracted to people of more than one gender, and those outside the gender binary/spectrum. A more accurate definition of bisexuality is attracted to genders similar to and different to one's own gender.
And you're still missing the point of what I wrote - that sexual orientation is not purely about sexual activity, but is an identity issue. Many men only have sex with other men but do not identify as gay, for instance, so it's inappropriate to say that they have 'gay sex' (which is an unhelpful term anyway).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Exactly. We really aren't on anyone's radar. [Url=http://yrieithydd.livejournal.com/130105.html"] The CofE managed to declare we didn't exist, except it wasn't even talking about us[\url] which just shows how invisible we are. I will say this for the Bishop of Birkenhead's minority report in Pilling report: he does actually acknowledge the existence of asexual people.
Carys
That attitude is also very harmful to intersex people, many of whom are literally neither male nor female in terms of biological sex. Biological sex is a spectrum too.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I kinda thought this debate was about the possibility that all straight people have a low level, or even subconscious attraction to their own gender .
My intent was to question the fluidity of attraction, not necessarily its broadness.
My attractions are limited. it has always been so and I have examined this thoroughly. For many people this is not so, I've no question as to that.
My broader question is about change and its prevalence.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And you're still missing the point of what I wrote - that sexual orientation is not purely about sexual activity, but is an identity issue. Many men only have sex with other men but do not identify as gay, for instance, so it's inappropriate to say that they have 'gay sex' (which is an unhelpful term anyway).
OK. Please forgive me for being a bit slow on the uptake .
Sexual orientation does not seem to be a clear-cut a thing as many would have had us believe . I accept what you say that some may wish to seek a definite identity for themselves whereas others may not.
Just to throw in some more confusion on my part . Are we talking about emotional as well as sexual attraction ? A long time ago, as a young child at primary school, I recall feelings towards an individual of my own gender which were indeed ,looking back, those of love .
However, it wasn't long before there was no escaping the fact that the female gender was where my real affections lay, and have done ever since.
The need to identify oneself is an interesting one though . The vast majority of folk are given the identity of being 'straight' - devotedly having their attractions focused entirely on the opposite sex . Once the concept of sliding scales etc. is introduced I wonder if an element of doubt doesn't encroach on even the straightest of identities .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It is necessary to sexualise all attractions is it? Can you not find someone, of any age, of any persuasion, affiliation, sexuality, genderality attractive and also avoid wanting to screw them? At one point in time it was thought a good idea to restrain such impulses, perhaps acknowledging them, but not to act all of them out. We thought restraint of self was a consequence of growing up and maturing.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Why are human beings capable of being such shits to each other?
