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Source: (consider it) Thread: What next, Lap Dances?
lilBuddha
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A new app approved by the NFL will allow one to order a cheerleader to one's seat. How is this not a harassment-suit-in-waiting?

[ 28. March 2014, 22:01: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Og, King of Bashan

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You'd have to ask the risk management department that approved the program. Something tells me that they only send seasoned cheerleaders who have lots of public appearances under their belts, that they come to the seat with security personnel with power to eject the patron from the game, that the fan gets a short chat and a chance to take a picture with the cheerleader, and that it is priced so that someone who just wants to be an asshole would decide to go to the strip club instead.

These NFL owners are pretty seasoned business people, in general. They didn't get there by being complete idiots.

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The Silent Acolyte

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Dunno about you, lilBuddha, but this sounds All American to me.

What could be more wholesome than a father taking his lil man to a sporting contest and having his son learn correct gender roles? I mean, it's all there. The bulked steroid manly men neatly contrasted with the vixen cheerleaders with legs up to you-know-where.

What's not to like?

[ 29. March 2014, 02:30: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

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Og, King of Bashan

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That's funny, TSA.

My wife was in a dance troupe when she was young. A number of the members of that troupe became NFL cheerleaders. My wife takes dance classes at one of the studios where people who might want to try out for the Broncos cheerleading troupe train. She actually sat in on the class which prepares you for the try-out, and it was hard as hell. She really admires the women who have the skills and stamina to be on the dance team. So when I saw the OP, I thought, "well, if I ever have a daughter who dances, maybe I would pay to have her meet someone who has stuck with dance beyond middle school. You know, some one to look up to."

I admit that not everyone thinks this way. But give the women some credit. They work very hard to get where they are, and they don't need a bunch of folks on the internet clutching at their pearls on their behalf.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

I admit that not everyone thinks this way. But give the women some credit. They work very hard to get where they are, and they don't need a bunch of folks on the internet clutching at their pearls on their behalf.

Don't own pearls, so nothing to clutch.

Cheerleaders at professional sports exist for the purpose of titillation. But it is their choice. Calling up to the seats is a little beyond, IMO. I may be a bit of a cynic, but I belive it will be abused.

BTW,I am raising a question on a discussion board, not setting the blogosphere alight, nor trolling comments sections.

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ExclamationMark
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It's sexism and as such, wrong.
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Kitten
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I never really got the whole concept of cheerleaders anyway

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Boogie

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Yep - sounds very like lap dancers to me. Do the punters pay?

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yep - sounds very like lap dancers to me. Do the punters pay?

I'd have thought so. Else you'd get too many requests. (if nothing else I know enough people who'd order for an unsuspecting 'friend').

To be honest if you wanted to cater for the daughter meeting a role model there'd be better ways, ways where you took daughter to meet them rather than summoning a dancer.
You'd have the ability to talk to more than one for some of the time and saving the limited resources time walking.

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deano
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I suppose you get the crappy end of the deal and get a young George Bush, who I believe was a cheerleader in his younger days.

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Lyda*Rose

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Love it. Another responsibility in earning their enormous salaries. [Projectile]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

I admit that not everyone thinks this way. But give the women some credit. They work very hard to get where they are, and they don't need a bunch of folks on the internet clutching at their pearls on their behalf.

Don't own pearls, so nothing to clutch.

Cheerleaders at professional sports exist for the purpose of titillation. But it is their choice. Calling up to the seats is a little beyond, IMO. I may be a bit of a cynic, but I belive it will be abused.

BTW,I am raising a question on a discussion board, not setting the blogosphere alight, nor trolling comments sections.

Actually, cheerleading is a professional sport in its own right and can be extremely athletic (though I suspect the kind at these games is not the athletic sort).

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ken
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A few English football teams have started having cheerleaders. A much lower-key theming than in the US, much more downmarket and amateur, and well, a bit tacky.

The only ones I've seen are at Crystal Palace. They look as if they are in their mid teens, I guess still at school (I mean school, not college - maybe aged 15-18 or so?)

It was embarrassing. Partly because I was there as a Millwall away supporter and trust me, you do not want to be doing a half-baked failure of a cheerleading performance in front of a Millwall away crowd who are mainly there for three main things, watching the football, getting pissed, and illegally smoking in front of the police daring them to intervene (they didn't, any of the times I was there. Or at Charlton)

Its not so much that it they made crude sexist comments (though a few did) as that they treated it all as a waste of time. "Start the bloody match!" "Get them off!" (Spot the innuendo). It was all a bit embarrassing. Had I been the father of one of those girls I would not have wanted her to be there.

Cheerleading just doesn't go with real football. It would be like eating fairy cakes with chips. Cognitive dissonance.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... I was there as a Millwall away supporter ...

Transatlantic shipmates will have no idea what levels of bravery are involved in making that admission in a public forum. [Mad]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually, cheerleading is a professional sport in its own right and can be extremely athletic (though I suspect the kind at these games is not the athletic sort).

The NFL cheerleaders are athletic as well. But the real point is wearing skimpy clothes whilst waving their pom poms. And those fully, multi-coloured balls.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Yep - sounds very like lap dancers to me. Do the punters pay?

No...the punters get paid. Not much but they get something. Chances are a cheerleader wouldn't be caught dead with a punter. QB, yes,punter, no

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Anglican't
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Putting aside the icky-ness of it, how would this actually work in practice? In my experience, seating at sports venues, like any other entertainment venue, tends to be rather cramped. I suspect the same is true at US venues.

Cheerleading, from what little I've seen of it, requires space: you have to move around to perform your routine and have room to shake your pom-pom, or whatever it is called.

So how can one do a cheer-leading routine in the seating area at a sports venue, especially if the 'client' is in the middle of the row of seats? I can't picture in my own mind how this physically works.

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Beeswax Altar
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The cheerleaders aren't going to dance. It is a meet and greet with a photo. In other words, they'll do what cheerleaders do all the time.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The cheerleaders aren't going to dance. It is a meet and greet with a photo. In other words, they'll do what cheerleaders do all the time.

Or indeed players?
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Beeswax Altar
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Yes, the players have those obligations as well. You wouldn't want some of the players as ambassadors for your team. But yeah...

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Soror Magna
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Many so-called "professional" cheerleaders are paid practically nothing.

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Beeswax Altar
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All professional cheerleaders are paid next to nothing. Being a college cheerleader is a better paying gig. I don't know how the NFL gets away with it. I don't know why women try out for the squads in the first place when they know the time commitment and salary.

Prestige? Resume building? Like the attention? Want to meet a rich athlete? Just for fun?

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

Prestige? Resume building? Like the attention? Want to meet a rich athlete? Just for fun?

Empirical evidence suggests that "marrying a rich athlete" is the goal for at least some. And yes, NFL cheerleaders are talented gymnasts, but it all seems a bit pointless to me. If I want to watch a game of football, why is my experience improved by a bunch of young ladies prancing around in their undies?
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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I don't know why women try out for the squads in the first place when they know the time commitment and salary.

Prestige? Resume building? Like the attention? Want to meet a rich athlete? Just for fun?

I sing in my church choir because I always enjoyed singing in school. We have some folks who get paid a part-time salary to sing with us. Like me, they liked singing, only they are lucky enough to be able to supplement their income by doing something they love.

Honestly, from what I know from being married to a former dancer, dancing is pretty similar. It is fun, and if you love it, you try to keep up with it. NFL cheerleader is how you supplement your income by dancing.

I don't know why everyone is convinced that being an NFL cheerleader is like being one step away from being a sex worker. Most of those women have danced for their whole lives, enjoyed being on the dance team in high school and college, and found a way to keep it up. If you keep up with your own preferred art form, you should get it.

Naw, they're just there to meet a man.

[ 31. March 2014, 03:17: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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I am reluctant to join in this thread as I have no idea why anyone would watch a football game, but I am on the fringes of our local modern dance world and know several dancers and former dancers socially. Dance is a drug for them; they love to dance, they live to dance, they will dance. Women dancers embrace the comradeship of women dancers-- they get an extraordinary elevation of spirit from this. Their sense of focus is supernatural. Some of them will gravitate to cheerleading for want of something better and being paid peanuts or mountains is not a relevant consideration.
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Taliesin
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I think cheerleading is great... But it needs to lose its gender bias. Until young men equally gather and organise themselves into cheerleading (encouragement) squads, it's not helping. I didn't know George Bush was a cheerleader... are there many mixed squads?
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seekingsister
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There seems to be some confusion between NFL cheerleaders and competitive cheerleaders.

NFL cheerleaders are basically dancers. They are usually adult women who perhaps are or used to be professional dancers in other capacities. Why would they do it? They love to dance and they love football. It might be hard for non-Americans to understand but football is extremely popular across both genders and all ages. Women can't play but if they can dance that's the closest they can get.

Traditional cheerleading is a sport in most schools and universities, extremely athletic and acrobatic. I've never seen this represented at any mainstream professional sports leagues. They have their own events, and the national championship is usually aired on ESPN in its own right. At these shows cheerleading is the main event.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think cheerleading is great... But it needs to lose its gender bias. Until young men equally gather and organise themselves into cheerleading (encouragement) squads, it's not helping. I didn't know George Bush was a cheerleader... are there many mixed squads?

Major colleges have male cheerleaders. The cheerleaders at Texas A&M, called yell leaders, are all male. Being a yell leader at TAMU is a big deal in some parts of Texas.

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ken
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Let's be honest. Cheerleading may or may not be about the joy of dancing, or competitive sport, or companionship, or whatever, from the point of view of the cheerleeaders.

But for men in the audience its about watchign fit young women in tight shiny costumes jumping up and down and bending themselves into unlikely positions and we know what most of them are thinking and its nothing to do with sport or comradeship. Its just plain sexual fantasy, soft porn. No question.

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Beeswax Altar
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Sure enough

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Let's be honest. Cheerleading may or may not be about the joy of dancing, or competitive sport, or companionship, or whatever, from the point of view of the cheerleeaders.

But for men in the audience its about watchign fit young women in tight shiny costumes jumping up and down and bending themselves into unlikely positions and we know what most of them are thinking and its nothing to do with sport or comradeship. Its just plain sexual fantasy, soft porn. No question.

Tell me why the cheerleader should care what the man in the audience thinks.

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Augustine the Aleut
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As far as Og's comment goes, my women friends in the experimental and interpretive dance world would likely support him. When put to them that there are those in the audience who are there to scope out the dancers in their brief (and occasionally non-existent) costumes, they simply shrug their shoulders. They don't seem to care particularly-- by their comments over the years, they are in it to express themselves, and to convey emotion and sentiment and meaning through movement (and have fun).

I suspect that, for most (only a fool would speak for all women in a category), this would be the case.

[ 31. March 2014, 16:48: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... I was there as a Millwall away supporter ...

Transatlantic shipmates will have no idea what levels of bravery are involved in making that admission in a public forum. [Mad]
No one liked him. He didn't care.

But I have to ask this... if cheerleading was abolished in all American football games, who would complain the loudest? The fans, the players, or the young ladies themselves?

[ 31. March 2014, 22:52: Message edited by: deano ]

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I sing in my church choir because I always enjoyed singing in school. We have some folks who get paid a part-time salary to sing with us. Like me, they liked singing, only they are lucky enough to be able to supplement their income by doing something they love. ...

And if those choristers were paid $500,000 per year, and the minister at your church was paid $1 million per year, and the congregation consisted entirely of millionaires, your church choir might be comparable to an NFL team.

That's the part that's so outrageous. There are off-off-off-Broadway dance companies that pay more than some of those cheerleaders get. The NFL and its franchises make zillions of dollars. They could easily afford to have proper professional contracts and fees for their cheerleaders, just as professional dancers do. Which, let's face it, isn't great, but it's still better than $150 a gig.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
That's the part that's so outrageous. There are off-off-off-Broadway dance companies that pay more than some of those cheerleaders get.

So every dancer in New Orleans, Dallas, Denver, should move to NYC?

In a lot of NFL cities there is not a huge artistic dance scene.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Let's be honest. Cheerleading may or may not be about the joy of dancing, or competitive sport, or companionship, or whatever, from the point of view of the cheerleeaders.

But for men in the audience its about watchign fit young women in tight shiny costumes jumping up and down and bending themselves into unlikely positions and we know what most of them are thinking and its nothing to do with sport or comradeship. Its just plain sexual fantasy, soft porn. No question.

A few years ago I went to see a performance of Swan Lake with my wife and daughter. One of my young mums commented that I must be a truly noble person to sit through that little lot at my daughters behest. I very nearly responded that watching fit young women with good legs twirl around on a stage was considerably less dull than some of the things I have gone along with in the name of marriage and fatherhood. I didn't, partly because I didn't want her to think that I was some kind of letch but also because her oldest was trying out for the English Youth Ballet or some such and didn't want to come across as being disparaging.

Any form of art which involves attractive young women and heterosexual men is going to have some sexual implications but unless the form of dance involves twirling round a pole wearing nothing but a thong it's a fairly safe bet that the dance is done for its own sake and not to provide you with something to think about when it's u and ur hand tonight.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
That's the part that's so outrageous. There are off-off-off-Broadway dance companies that pay more than some of those cheerleaders get.

So every dancer in New Orleans, Dallas, Denver, should move to NYC?

In a lot of NFL cities there is not a huge artistic dance scene.

Without knowing what cash levels are being discussed in pay from off-off-off-Broadway dance companies in comparison with cheerleaders, anything I say might be totally useless. However, having prepared tax returns for dance friends in Ottawa and Montreal, I am surprised that they can afford enough calories to perform. Try living on $19,000 /annum in an urban area in North America.

I had the impression, and this may simply show my ignorance of the lives of cheerleaders that for most of them this was a part-time or weekend avocation, albeit a demanding one, rather than a full-time job. I am open to correction on this.

Talking with my USian fiends, few have modern dance on their radar, although it is one of the most innovative forms of artistic expression in the US, and there's lots of it, even if there is little coverage on television and I suspect even less money. South of the world's longest undefended border™, places such as Minneapolis have amazing facilities for artistic dance (I am not sure if there is an NFL team, but there is roller derby).

Up in the frozen north, I would also note that some (relatively) smaller centres have quite competent dance scenes-- I discovered to my surprise that Winnipeg has several companies and two major schools, owing to artistic refugees from the last century's European turmoil, and their mitteleuropa heritage now being passed on to filipinos and cree. I do not know if they have a football team. But Winnipeg does have roller derby (Murder City Maidens and the Backseat Betties).

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Any form of art which involves attractive young women and heterosexual men is going to have some sexual implications but unless the form of dance involves twirling round a pole wearing nothing but a thong it's a fairly safe bet that the dance is done for its own sake and not to provide you with something to think about when it's u and ur hand tonight.

Exactly, one could just as easily point to gymnastics, figure skating, and athletics and say that because there are women in tight and revealing clothing, their main purpose is to serve the male gaze. However most people would disagree.

NFL dancers are extremely tame compared to many other things people could watch on TV or on the internet, if they wished to see some skin.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I had the impression, and this may simply show my ignorance of the lives of cheerleaders that for most of them this was a part-time or weekend avocation, albeit a demanding one, rather than a full-time job. I am open to correction on this.

Indeed. So comparing their salaries to that of a full-time dancer in New York makes even less sense. A lot of them are teachers, work at dance studios, coach cheerleading, etc. Maybe they prefer the quality of life in Kansas City or Houston, who knows. They are not equivalent career paths.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Talking with my USian fiends, few have modern dance on their radar, although it is one of the most innovative forms of artistic expression in the US, and there's lots of it, even if there is little coverage on television and I suspect even less money. South of the world's longest undefended border™, places such as Minneapolis have amazing facilities for artistic dance (I am not sure if there is an NFL team, but there is roller derby).

The type of dancing NFL dancers do is jazz and some (although more common in the NBA) hip-hop. Modern dance at whatever Minneapolis arts center is probably outside of their oeuvre. The type of dancing we're talking about is most commonly found in music videos (so NYC/LA, maybe Atlanta and Chicago) or on tour with musical artists (possibly nationwide casting but very tough gigs to get).
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Gwai
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I had the impression, and this may simply show my ignorance of the lives of cheerleaders that for most of them this was a part-time or weekend avocation, albeit a demanding one, rather than a full-time job. I am open to correction on this.

Indeed. So comparing their salaries to that of a full-time dancer in New York makes even less sense. A lot of them are teachers, work at dance studios, coach cheerleading, etc.
And to add on to what you have said, probably many of them are more successful in their full time jobs because of their cheerleading. I bet many people are eager to take dance or cheerleading from a professional cheerleader!

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If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
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Augustine the Aleut
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Seekingsister posts:
quote:
The type of dancing NFL dancers do is jazz and some (although more common in the NBA) hip-hop. Modern dance at whatever Minneapolis arts center is probably outside of their oeuvre. The type of dancing we're talking about is most commonly found in music videos (so NYC/LA, maybe Atlanta and Chicago) or on tour with musical artists (possibly nationwide casting but very tough gigs to get).
There is much more crossover in these areas than one would think. I don't know the details of US dance as much as I do that of Canada, but I know that our local artistic dance troupe has done hiphop pieces (which I really don't like, but chacun a son gout and all that) and certainly most modern dancers I know have done jazz and jazz ballet as part of their training. My artsie-fartsie dance friends (their phrase!) in Montréal and Vancouver pick up a fair bit of cash doing music videos-- they like these gigs as the buffet is really very richly stacked and hungry dancers are notorious for wolfing down frightening amounts of protein (I recall taking a svelte and lean 5'2" friend out for her birthday dinner, who horrified the waitress as she cheerfully munched through two steaks).

There are several modern dance pieces which incorporate baseball games, but I don't think that they make it much to the stadium.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
[QUOTE]South of the world's longest undefended border™, places such as Minneapolis have amazing facilities for artistic dance (I am not sure if there is an NFL team, but there is roller derby).

Minneapolis has a group of individuals playing under a dome that masquerade as an NFL team. [Snigger]
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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I had the impression, and this may simply show my ignorance of the lives of cheerleaders that for most of them this was a part-time or weekend avocation, albeit a demanding one, rather than a full-time job. I am open to correction on this.

This is my understanding, and the point of my comparison to the staff singer in a choir. Very few people can make a full time living from artistic gigs. Most of us work for free, and a lucky few get some supplemental income, but still have to hold down day jobs. It's the reality of keeping up with art after you graduate from school. You love what you do, and good for you if you can make some money, but for all but a very few, you aren't going to make a living at it.

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lilBuddha
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Special pleading, that is.
The reason most entertainment gigs pay little or nothing is that there is little to no money available.
Not true of the NFL.
The reason cheerleaders exist in the NFL is titillation, dress it up how you like. Absolutely no judgement made on the women who choose to participate, mind you.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I would have thought that the entire point of the NFL is titillation, of one sort or the other. If players and coaches are to be grossly overpaid for helping advertisers sell things, why should we leave the cheerleaders out?
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Beeswax Altar
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Because the owners can. Only so many men in the world have the size and athletic ability to play in the NFL. Many young women can dance well enough to be an NFL cheerleader and are even willing to do it for what the NFL pays. Could they try and unionize and demand more money? I suppose. The NFL would then decide to do without cheerleaders. Titillation is nice and all but not necessary.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I would have thought that the entire point of the NFL is titillation, of one sort or the other. If players and coaches are to be grossly overpaid for helping advertisers sell things, why should we leave the cheerleaders out?

Do the cheerleaders appear on television as a main feature? Or are they there for the stadium goers?
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Beeswax Altar
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Cheerleaders are there for the live audience. You don't see them much on television. The casual fan might purchase a cheerleader calender as a way of showing support for their team.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Anglican't
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If that's the case, then the pay disparity between players and cheerleaders would appear to be justified.
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If that's the case, then the pay disparity between players and cheerleaders would appear to be justified.

Perhaps a pay disparity, but this pay disparity?
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