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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bless and do not curse them, but....
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
'....by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.'
Here Paul says that it's OK to want your enemies to suffer for what they've done, but that love for them should be genuine and we should bless them and be kind to them and leave God to carry out the vengeance.
This is for Purg, not for Keryg:
I struggle with the whole 'just war' debate. I would love to think that I could turn the other cheek, but then when people carry out atrocities I want them to be stopped, somehow, from continuing to do so. It's not easy to love them. I don't ever think that I should look for excuses for their evil behaviour. I do want them to face up to it.
Is this teaching too hard to carry out in real life? Is it enough to pray for and be kind to those who persecute us, to trust in God? Does it come down to war and violence being necessary so that God's will can be done, in the end?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
I think Walter Wink covers this well in The Powers that Be. Wink identifies this universal, persistent theme-- the notion that violence is necessary to end evil-- what he calls "the myth of redemptive violence"-- as the essence of original sin. And Wink I think correctly notes that there is no way out of that self-perpectuating, endless, fruitless way of life w/o the cross. Only when we are willing to die are we able to find the freedom of the life God has for us-- a life free from that endless cycle of violence and retribution.
Reading (and rereading) Wink's work, I am always struck with how exhilerating the early chapters are-- when he's describing this way of life in theory, in generalities, there is something so true, so life-giving, so powerful in the words. Then when he switches to start talking about it in practical realities and examples-- what it looks like in everyday terms to live that out-- it suddenly becomes, well hard. Daunting. Impossible. All of which I think speaks to the truth of the "mythology"-- the imbedded worldview that rules our lives until slowly, painfully, reluctantly we begin to trust Christ and live the way of the cross.
Not easy stuff.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think this particular teaching is intended personally, rather than at a national level. It is about not retaliating when someone is rude to you, or hurts you, as an individual.
The arguments for a war are different, in that they claim it is worth killing a number of people so that many more do not die, as I understand it.
I struggle with this idea, from all sides. I most recently came across it while reading Unapologetic by Frank Spufford ( My post on the book as a whole ) - where he talks about a general who was plagued by guilt for one particular engagement, where many soldiers had died.
The point made is that if he had not sent these soldiers to die, many more would have died. If he had sent in less, many more would have died. He sacrificed as few as he could.
Which makes no difference to the individuals who died. They died whatever the result. I cannot find a way of accepting deliberate deaths, but then there are situations where people are going to die. In that situation, I would be stuck.
I don't think you can argue the "bless not curse" mean that it is NEVER right to go to war. In principle, the attacks on IS in Afghanistan are intended to reduce overall death and suffering. But that is not any actual heal to a soldier - of either side - who dies in the conflict.
It is the impersonal nature of war that, for me, means it is harder to use the same scriptural arguments. The person making the decisions is not the same person who is getting killed. The person benefiting is not the same person who is dying.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think this particular teaching is intended personally, rather than at a national level. It is about not retaliating when someone is rude to you, or hurts you, as an individual...
It is the impersonal nature of war that, for me, means it is harder to use the same scriptural arguments. The person making the decisions is not the same person who is getting killed. The person benefiting is not the same person who is dying.
At the individual level some people face horrible situations, like neighborhood gangs including people you had been in school with threatening to maim or kill your children if you don't give the gang your house.
War these days isn't just state against state, it's failed states, various non-state militias, rioters who live on your block smashing store windows and burning houses.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you for your thoughts. I can see that what we do as individuals isn't the same as what we do collectively. Should it be? The herd mentality tells others to go where we wouldn't tread ourselves. Is that right?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Thank you for your thoughts. I can see that what we do as individuals isn't the same as what we do collectively. Should it be? The herd mentality tells others to go where we wouldn't tread ourselves. Is that right?
I agree. The same Kingdom principles that should guide our individual ethics should guide our corporate ethics. The same arguments used to justify "the myth of redemptive violence" when we're talking int'l relations are the principles we use individually to rationalize our urge for retaliation. It's all coming from the same lie, the same myth that drives our endless and fruitless cycle of violence. It needs to be addressed both individually AND corporately. And yet, to do either perfectly will require the return of Christ to rule us in justice and mercy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
"Blessed are the peacemakers"
Why is it so difficult for us to focus on peace - instead of constantly digging up accounts of violence? One of the diagnostic traits of traumatisation is the tendency to constantly seek out similar circumstances to the one that caused the original trauma, hoping, unconsciously and hopelessly, that the next time we come across it we will get that bit more information that will help us to solve it and emerge victorious. Injstead we just doig a deeper and deeper hole.
What would happen if we only focussed on what is wholesome in the world? Could that be another interpretation of "turning the other cheek"?
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
'....by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.'
Here Paul says that it's OK to want your enemies to suffer for what they've done, but that love for them should be genuine and we should bless them and be kind to them and leave God to carry out the vengeance.
This is for Purg, not for Keryg
[Tangent]There is a good possibility that Paul is not here talking about your enemies suffering for what they've done, but rather either (1) by your good conduct you make them ashamed; or (2) your actions are such that you make it easier for them to repent. Unfortunately the figure of speech he uses (from Proverbs 25.22) is now obscure to us.[/Tangent]
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I puttered around on google, and basically people were saying either the coals indicate them feeling ashamed how they treated you, burning with shame, blushing hot with embarrassment;
or a reference to cultural carrying containers of coals on your head if you are taking hot coals somewhere - many cultures use the head to carry things, coals are very valuable in a culture dependent on household fires - so the image suggests you are heaping valuable good on them.
None of the pages I ran into saw any sense of the other suffering from your doing them good that heaps coals on their heads.
I keep noticing that God's idea of vengeance may be different from ours. What is the proper vengeance for example against someone who goes house to house pulling men and women out and throwing them in prison just for being Christian? God's approach was to make the evil-doer an apostle. Hmm. Best revenge on enemies is to turn them into friends?
Not easy. Not on a personal level, nor on a large group level. Maybe more possible than we realize if we would seriously give a try to praying for our enemies?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Surely we do suffer when we become conscious of the harm we've done, and recognise our need to repent? I think that's the only suffering I desire.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, how do we bless the Satanically evil IS?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
'....by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.'
Here Paul says that it's OK to want your enemies to suffer for what they've done, but that love for them should be genuine and we should bless them and be kind to them and leave God to carry out the vengeance.
This is for Purg, not for Keryg
[Tangent]There is a good possibility that Paul is not here talking about your enemies suffering for what they've done, but rather either (1) by your good conduct you make them ashamed; or (2) your actions are such that you make it easier for them to repent. Unfortunately the figure of speech he uses (from Proverbs 25.22) is now obscure to us.[/Tangent]
Indeed. The full two verses are:
quote:
If your enemies are hungry, give them bread to eat; and if they are thirsty, give them water to drink; for you will heap coals of fire on their heads, and the Lord will reward you. ~Proverbs 25:21-22
How one cam apply this to ISIS, however, I can't imagine. Perhaps eventually some of the younger ISIS fighters might become amenable to love and repentance as some young fighters have in East Africa when Christian charities have served them.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye, how do we bless the Satanically evil IS?
Obviously You don't (or I don't) "pray for my enemies" in the materialistic sense of "God, bless them by helping them achieve their goal of killing lots of people."
I have no problem asking God to bless the ISIS fighters in the sense of turning their hearts to God and helping them find the internal peace that relieves them of need to act out pain or fear by killing.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye, how do we bless the Satanically evil IS?
Obviously You don't (or I don't) "pray for my enemies" in the materialistic sense of "God, bless them by helping them achieve their goal of killing lots of people."
I have no problem asking God to bless the ISIS fighters in the sense of turning their hearts to God and helping them find the internal peace that relieves them of need to act out pain or fear by killing.
Well, exactly - labelling them en mass as evil is the exact means by which the Sunni members of ISIS justify to themselves the slaughter of non-Sunnis.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I would think that we may fight them, even fight to kill them, but resist the temptation to hate them and to enjoy sadistically thinking about making them suffer, etc.--and if any are captured, we must treat them humanely according to the Geneva Convention and such.
The US has been particularly lacking in some of this in recent wars, with things like torture being used with impunity. This must not be allowed to happen again.
We are also commanded to pray for our enemies. Certainly to pray that, whether here or in the world to come, God will forgive them and help them grow in grace (which would of course include them seeing that their harmful acts were wrong).
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
The Aloha Spirit is worth looking at...
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I'm always wary of schemes in which it's suggested that we can control or 'invoke' God, so that our actions give us the results that we want and God is a kind of benevolent powerful puppet, or that we have the power in ourselves to manipulate desired results.
It may be what's on our minds and in our hopes when we pray, however. If it 'worked' we wouldn't need to take any other action.
I don't see how we can kill an enemy if we love him, but how else will we stop him from killing others? It must be that we trust in God and serve God, so that God's will is done as we co-operate under the guidance we're given by Christ. We will only get what we want if we want God's will to be done. It doesn't necessarily mean a happy life for us.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
While we wait for God to change the hearts and minds of these innocent barbarians (you and me but for the 'grace of God': time and chance), what do we do? Blast them off the Mosul dam? We - that's Christendom - created this nightmare with our money, our trade, our foreign policy since 1914-17-2014, our religion, so yes it's impossible to just stop our juggernaut and its effects. President Obama is doing a remarkably nuanced, restrained, minimal, positive, engaged job in undoing the damage of his predecessor. He's still killing killers. Causing them to kill more. Because, as usual, Christianity does, says, thinks NOTHING.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
We need some sort of non-lethal sleeping gas and make that our focus in warfare. Then you just go tiptoeing around the snoozing foes, plucking rifles out of their hands, and then restraining them with zip-ties, and so on.
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I'm not entirely joking! Seriously, why not? If people can use horrible lethal gas, why not something like this? Maybe guns that shoot tranquilizer darts?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
We need some sort of non-lethal sleeping gas and make that our focus in warfare. Then you just go tiptoeing around the snoozing foes, plucking rifles out of their hands, and then restraining them with zip-ties, and so on.
Sleeping gas, zip ties -- and jobs. Isn't that part of the problem? Lot of young men with no sense of a future?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
We need some sort of non-lethal sleeping gas and make that our focus in warfare.
One problem with this is that people vary tremendously in their reactions to medication. A dose that would put the average person peacefully to sleep might have very little effect on some and might almost kill others.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
We need some sort of non-lethal sleeping gas and make that our focus in warfare. Then you just go tiptoeing around the snoozing foes, plucking rifles out of their hands, and then restraining them with zip-ties, and so on.
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I'm not entirely joking! Seriously, why not? If people can use horrible lethal gas, why not something like this? Maybe guns that shoot tranquilizer darts?
Didn't this idea come up in one of the Bond movies? I like the idea of innovation. Sport has been tried. 'Champions' to represent sides has been tried (David & Goliath anyone?) It always seems to end up with slaughter, rape & pillage. Shudders. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You can't counter computer guided artillery with chloroform.
The Bishop of Manchester is right, WE are responsible for the minorities and must get them out, negotiating with the IS to pay ransom. The sinews of peace must be the same as those of war: infinite money.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
You can't counter computer guided artillery with chloroform.
The Bishop of Manchester is right, WE are responsible for the minorities and must get them out, negotiating with the IS to pay ransom. The sinews of peace must be the same as those of war: infinite money.
And in a world with little unsettled space the question becomes - and put them where? Create another artificial state for the original inhabitants to resent? Or scatter a people who are used to having their own communities? Populations have always migrated, but where is there to migrate to?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Bring them to Britain. As Pope Frank said, whatever the poor need, they need it more than we do. We CAUSED this, we owe them. Any country in Europe including Andorra could far more easily take them than Kurdistan, Iraq 'proper' or Syria, ALL of which we are responsible for.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Bring them to Britain. As Pope Frank said, whatever the poor need, they need it more than we do. We CAUSED this, we owe them. Any country in Europe including Andorra could far more easily take them than Kurdistan, Iraq 'proper' or Syria, ALL of which we are responsible for.
We should not assume that people want to come to Britain, nor that it's the best thing to do for them. It's hard enough for people to adjust to a new life where the culture is similar to what they're familiar with. A whole new culture is something else.
It may also feed into the idea that certain religions may be successfully banished from whole areas, and give impetus to the violence of those intolerant of any other than their own narrow brand.
There are no easy answers.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Of course they'd want to come to Britain. If they stay in the Middle East we have to pay either way.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Of course they'd want to come to Britain. If they stay in the Middle East we have to pay either way.
They might want to go home, Martin. Fine, if we pay either way. As you said, we probably owe them. We certainly owe them our best efforts to help them to build tolerant societies with sufficient stable government and law and order to give them a feeling of relative safety. How do we do that without bloodshed? Please God, guide us into knowing and doing the right thing, this time!
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We certainly owe them our duty of care for waging war on and around them for 30 years.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
I won't say all, but most people from middle eastern countries I've talked to - even if they have been here 20 or 30 years - really long for their original homelands, and if there was safety and the opportunity for them to prosper, they would be there, not here. Refugees are not looking for someone else's idea of a nice place to live. Yes people love to come to the UK because despite my/our awareness of the shortcomings of our system and the beurocracy and how perilously close we are to being a police state, it is actually a place where (compared to most other places in the world) you are free to do what you please for most intents and purposes.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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