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Source: (consider it) Thread: Companies that conspire to limit hiring and wages
no prophet's flag is set so...

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This includes most of the big technology companies, like the one named for a fruit, another named for a 1 followed by 100 zeros, a maker of computer chips, computer manufacturers....

Wage fixing cartel affecting dozens of companies

And people wonder why corporations are not trusted. An internet search will turn up links about this from pretty near everywhere, e.g., India

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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No, I am not surprised in the least. I worked at an "Apple Vendor" five years ago. Not a vendor of parts by a supplier of services. There were two departments, both of which were trained to Apple standards. In the second department (not mine) you were perfectly qualified to go work in the Apple Store in Toronto. But the Apple Store, as employees knew, would not take your resume if you worked at that vendor. It was their policy not to "poach".

BTW I was paid 50% of the wage rate that Apple paid it in-house technicians to do the same work.

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Porridge
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I'm gobsmacked. Why with the minimum wage what it is in the U.S. (hovering about two quartiles below what it takes to live on) is there any need for the a**holes to fix wages?

[Mad]

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Dave W.
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Because the employees in question don't earn the minimum wage - they're highly compensated executives or managers.
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mousethief

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Yank their corporate charters. Liquidate their assets.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
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The State of Delaware is already bought and paid for.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Hm.

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Beeswax Altar
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The employees in question probably already make an absurd amount of money. A bidding war would allow them to negotiate an even larger salary. Usually hell threads are started to lament the fact people get paid such lavish salaries in the first place.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Your point about salaries is actually not the point. The point is about the allegedly free market as allegedly capitalistic companies allegedly want it to be. It shows that there is an absence of sense, an absence of ethics, a profit before anything mentality, a using of people, and if they can, a bending of laws, an up to the pig trough, bunch of BS.

Of course the outcome of the court case will be endless appeals and a soft decision that requires them to pay a minimal amount, and no impact on anything related to their enterprises.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Hm.

Companies have economic power. Remember the golden rule: those who have the gold, make the rules.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Your point about salaries is actually not the point. The point is about the allegedly free market as allegedly capitalistic companies allegedly want it to be. It shows that there is an absence of sense, an absence of ethics, a profit before anything mentality, a using of people, and if they can, a bending of laws, an up to the pig trough, bunch of BS.

Of course the outcome of the court case will be endless appeals and a soft decision that requires them to pay a minimal amount, and no impact on anything related to their enterprises.

Shareholders benefit from profit. You are complaining that these tech companies are making decisions that improve the retirement accounts of their investors instead of making top employees filthy rich instead of just rich. Of course this is collusion and should be illegal. However, I agree with Marvin that it makes no sense to say employees have a right to collude to raise salaries but corporations do not. This is especially true if you favor limits on how much people should be allowed to make in the first place.

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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
ken
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# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Yes, pretty much.

Someone has too, governments don't, if it wasn't for organised trade unions then bosses would have everything their own way all the time and everyone else would be helpless. As is the case in most of the world right now.

Its why, after free speech and freedom of movement, but maybe even before the right to a democratic vote, organised trade unions are just about the most important thing we can have to defend our liberties.

And where people don't have those freedoms, sooner or later there will be bloodshed.

[ 31. March 2014, 14:52: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Its why, after free speech and freedom of movement, but maybe even before the right to a democratic vote, organised trade unions are just about the most important thing we can have to defend our liberties.

Let me make sure I understand that correctly (it's been a long afternoon). Are you saying that there are circumstances where a trade union is more important than the right to vote? If so, what circumstances are they?

And if a trade union is more important than the vote, do you mean a union in which members have a vote*?


*I mean a proper one, with a secret ballot, etc. rather than a show of hands that's open to intimidation.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Except BA and Marvin, the history of employment, employers, employees and labour is of those with money and power to do whatever they can to suppress wages, control people and make profit.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
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Yes, employers try to suppress wages and make profit. Employees try to make as much money as possible for doing the least amount of work. The third party in all of that is the consumer. To paraphrase Shakespeare, a person in his or her time plays many parts.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

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I don't actually know what these software people make nor what the cost of living is there, but what galls me is that many employers (I am an employer) fail to apply what they pretend to know, whether by knowledge of morality and ethical behaviour, knowledge of laws, or via their profession of faith. The history of labour has been of workers progressively asserting and gaining some rights, with the strenuous efforts of their more powerful employers, often allied with gov't, to prevent any gains. There a balance, but flagrant violation of law is nowhere near the balance is it?

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Hm.

Yes - because the employers have the power to exploit employees.

The only power employees have it to withdraw their labour. And successive tory governments have tried to taker even that way with them.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't actually know what these software people make nor what the cost of living is there, but what galls me is that many employers (I am an employer) fail to apply what they pretend to know, whether by knowledge of morality and ethical behaviour, knowledge of laws, or via their profession of faith. The history of labour has been of workers progressively asserting and gaining some rights, with the strenuous efforts of their more powerful employers, often allied with gov't, to prevent any gains. There a balance, but flagrant violation of law is nowhere near the balance is it?

Silicon Valley types aren't known for professing any faith. The "workers" important enough to warrant emails among the CEO's of companies like Apple and Google already make 6 figure salaries. Perhaps, Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt didn't want to make it even harder for their employees to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Hm.

Yes - because the employers have the power to exploit employees.

The only power employees have it to withdraw their labour. And successive tory governments have tried to taker even that way with them.

The power to withdraw labor is the power to exploit employers and consumers for that matter.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Exploit consumers? How is this accomplished by workers? As an employer I hold all the cards.

Thinks about the Pullman Strike in the USA, the Winnipeg Strike in Canada, and wonders.

Thinks about how far the minimum wage of ~$10/hr goes here, which is not far enough.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Companies work together to fix wages - that's terrible.

Employees work together to fix wages - that's right and proper.

Hm.

Yes - because the employers have the power to exploit employees.

The only power employees have it to withdraw their labour. And successive tory governments have tried to taker even that way with them.

The power to withdraw labor is the power to exploit employers and consumers for that matter.
The world is just full of exploited, weeping corporate giants.

Some comments are completely auto-parodic.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

Let me make sure I understand that correctly (it's been a long afternoon). Are you saying that there are circumstances where a trade union is more important than the right to vote? If so, what circumstances are they?

The circumstances called "capitalism!".

quote:

And if a trade union is more important than the vote, do you mean a union in which members have a vote*?

Of course. Its not a proper union elsewise, just a gang.

As it happens most unions are a damn sight more democratic than most governments.

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The power to withdraw labor is the power to exploit employers and consumers for that matter.

"Consumers" are by and large the same people as workers.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"Consumers" are by and large the same people as workers.

This.

I wish someone could knock this extremely salient point into the heads of any number of Congresscritters and state legislators, who seem to view these categories as living on a "never-the-twain-shall-meet" basis.

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Beeswax Altar
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Voters would need to be convinced of that first.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Voters would need to be convinced of that first.

Stop the 24/7 anti-union propaganda for a while and people would soon figure it out.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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The tragedy about unions is that they dug their own graves and now are complaining that they can't climb out of them.

Unions achieved many sorely needed gains for exploited workers during the first half of the 20th century, but then they let their power get the better of them.

I remember, for example, in the New York City school system, that custodians (janitors) were not allowed by their union to apply paint to a wall more than six feet up the wall. And so, if a wall was defaced by graffiti that extended higher than six feet, it took two workers to cover it up: the janitor, who painted over the first six feet of it, and a painter, who covered the rest.

Ridiculous.

"How many union members does it take to change a light bulb?"

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The tragedy about unions is that they dug their own graves and now are complaining that they can't climb out of them.

Unions achieved many sorely needed gains for exploited workers during the first half of the 20th century, but then they let their power get the better of them.

I remember, for example, in the New York City school system, that custodians (janitors) were not allowed by their union to apply paint to a wall more than six feet up the wall. And so, if a wall was defaced by graffiti that extended higher than six feet, it took two workers to cover it up: the janitor, who painted over the first six feet of it, and a painter, who covered the rest.

Ridiculous.

"How many union members does it take to change a light bulb?"

See the post previous to this which is an example of the 24/7 anti-union propaganda that was mentioned in that.

I wonder how many people are sacked every year? Every one of them represents a household less able to buy goods and services, which adversely affects the entire economy: What is good for a single enterprise usually acts against the interests of the economy as a whole!

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
See the post previous to this which is an example of the 24/7 anti-union propaganda that was mentioned in that.

Sure, it's propaganda, but some of the demarcation nonsense makes it so easy. It doesn't take too many pre-Wapping print unions or Bob Crows to tar the whole union movement with the loony brush.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
See the post previous to this which is an example of the 24/7 anti-union propaganda that was mentioned in that.

Sure, it's propaganda, but some of the demarcation nonsense makes it so easy. It doesn't take too many pre-Wapping print unions or Bob Crows to tar the whole union movement with the loony brush.
The Wapping print union dispute was damn near thirty years ago and the print unions are dead. Bob Crow did no more than get a fair deal for his member which their employers could easily afford.

I wonder how much harm is actually done to business by demarcation disputes, compared to that done to "hard-working families"* by zero-hours contracts, just to give one example of the many outcomes of deregulated employment law.

The workplace is rigged in the interest of shareholders and managers, against those of workers and customers; ie the few over the many.

*This is one of the Tories' favourite terms, so I thought I'd use it here.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Bob Crow did no more than get a fair deal for his member which their employers could easily afford.

But what about the travelling public?

Bob Crow's 'fair deal' included giving tube drivers a bonus for not going on strike during the Olympics (i.e. for just doing what they're paid to do in the first place).

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Bob Crow did no more than get a fair deal for his member which their employers could easily afford.

But what about the travelling public?

Bob Crow's 'fair deal' included giving tube drivers a bonus for not going on strike during the Olympics (i.e. for just doing what they're paid to do in the first place).

i) Fares have gone up by a good deal more than railway wages have; it takes two sides to make an industrial dispute.
ii) Plenty of commercial concerns make a fortune out of the Olympics. Are you suggesting the tube crews should lose their share?

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
ii) Plenty of commercial concerns make a fortune out of the Olympics. Are you suggesting the tube crews should lose their share?

Tube drivers weren't going to lose anything! They did a job that they got paid for. No-one else in London got a bonus for doing their usual day job just because the Olympics happened to be on.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
ii) Plenty of commercial concerns make a fortune out of the Olympics. Are you suggesting the tube crews should lose their share?

Tube drivers weren't going to lose anything! They did a job that they got paid for. No-one else in London got a bonus for doing their usual day job just because the Olympics happened to be on.
Bollocks! Almost every company and trader that was involved in the Olympics made a fortune! Why not the people who actually did the work? Isn't this government's policy all about rewarding "hard work"?

The Olympics is a money-making event. I've no doubt that TfL expected to make stacks of money, so why shouldn't tube drivers?

I really wonder at your understanding of the economy.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Almost every company and trader that was involved in the Olympics made a fortune!

If a company or a trader made a fortune during the Olympics it was presumably due to doing extra business? Not for doing whatever they usually do?

quote:
Why not the people who actually did the work? Isn't this government's policy all about rewarding "hard work"?


If someone did extra work that was particularly onerous, then a bonus might be in order.

The RMT's threats about strikes took place against a background of general talk of 'civil disobedience' by, I think, Unite during the run up to and during the Olympics. When it was clear that the Olympics were going to be a success the unions shut up about the 'civil disobedience' talk.

quote:
I really wonder at your understanding of the economy.
Not really sure how 'objecting to Union threats' = 'not understanding the economy', but there you go.
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Almost every company and trader that was involved in the Olympics made a fortune!

If a company or a trader made a fortune during the Olympics it was presumably due to doing extra business? Not for doing whatever they usually do?

The main reasons companies did so well at the Olympics was the high prices charged there. In line with the best practices of free-market capitalism people couldn't bring their own food in, so they had to buy the overpriced food and drink in the park.

Here are a few examples which show high prices, even for sporting venues in London.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Almost every company and trader that was involved in the Olympics made a fortune!

If a company or a trader made a fortune during the Olympics it was presumably due to doing extra business? Not for doing whatever they usually do?

The main reasons companies did so well at the Olympics was the high prices charged there. In line with the best practices of free-market capitalism people couldn't bring their own food in, so they had to buy the overpriced food and drink in the park.

Here are a few examples which show high prices, even for sporting venues in London.

I expect liquids would've been banned anyway, as part of the airport-style security that was in place.

As for the costs, yes they are on the dearer side* but the only companies that would've profited from this are those that had a licence to trade within the competition venues. That is a very small number of companies compared to, say, the number of catering outlets in London generally that were operating as usual during the Games.

The fish and chips at the Olympic Park were lovely, though.

*I don't know how these prices compare to food prices at other major events. As the LOCOG spokesman said, I think they're pretty comparable. Probably cheaper than food at a cinema, actually.

[ 27. April 2014, 20:13: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I expect liquids would've been banned anyway, as part of the airport-style security that was in place.

As for the costs, yes they are on the dearer side* but the only companies that would've profited from this are those that had a licence to trade within the competition venues. That is a very small number of companies compared to, say, the number of catering outlets in London generally that were operating as usual during the Games.

What difference does that make?
quote:


The fish and chips at the Olympic Park were lovely, though.

At £8 and up they should have been! I wonder what eight pounds would buy: a fishburger and a handful of chips.
quote:


*I don't know how these prices compare to food prices at other major events. As the LOCOG spokesman said, I think they're pretty comparable. Probably cheaper than food at a cinema, actually.

I would hesitate to describe anything sold at cinemas as food! My daughter works at one and I wouldn't touch anything other than ice cream and popcorn (which are a part of going to the cinema).

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I expect liquids would've been banned anyway, as part of the airport-style security that was in place.

As for the costs, yes they are on the dearer side* but the only companies that would've profited from this are those that had a licence to trade within the competition venues. That is a very small number of companies compared to, say, the number of catering outlets in London generally that were operating as usual during the Games.

What difference does that make?



Well put it this way: there is a McDonald's on the Strand in central London. Across the road is a ice cream vendor. Should a McDonald's employee* working shifts at the Strand branch have been entitled to a higher wage than usual for working between July - September 2012 just because five miles away a McDonald's restaurant was open in the Olympic Park? (Assuming the duration of shifts, etc. are as usual.)

Should an employee of the ice cream vendor been entitled to a higher wage?

If the answer is 'no', why should a tube driver be entitled to a higher salary?

*Of course, McDonald's runs on a franchise model, so they're not strictly speaking 'McDonald's employees' I suppose.

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Sioni Sais
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If McD's or the ice cream shop are taking more then the burger flippers and ice cream vendors will be serving more customers and taking more money.

On that basis then yes, they should be better paid, but unlike the Tube which is unionised, I doubt they got a penny over minimum wage.

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Anglican't
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The point I'm getting at is that a tube driver is employed to drive a train from Point A to Point E via Points B, C and D. Doing that job in July 2012 was no different from doing it in July 2011. On that basis, why have an uplift?

The fact that you say that a ice cream vendor ought to be paid more if he's dispensing more ice creams per hour* suggests that you admit that, if he isn't, then he isn't entitled to any more money. On this basis, a tube driver isn't entitled to a bonus for working during the Olympics.

*Of course, ice cream vendors and burger bar employees are paid on a hourly rate, not on the number of items they manage to sell. But that's besides the point here.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The point I'm getting at is that a tube driver is employed to drive a train from Point A to Point E via Points B, C and D. Doing that job in July 2012 was no different from doing it in July 2011. On that basis, why have an uplift?

The fact that you say that a ice cream vendor ought to be paid more if he's dispensing more ice creams per hour* suggests that you admit that, if he isn't, then he isn't entitled to any more money. On this basis, a tube driver isn't entitled to a bonus for working during the Olympics.

*Of course, ice cream vendors and burger bar employees are paid on a hourly rate, not on the number of items they manage to sell. But that's besides the point here.

Which is exactly the point! They, and the tube drivers, are all earning more (for the company they work for) so they should, IMNSHO, be rewarded for this.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Which is exactly the point! They, and the tube drivers, are all earning more (for the company they work for) so they should, IMNSHO, be rewarded for this.

So I take it you're happy for drivers of mostly empty trains to take home 50p, then?
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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The point I'm getting at is that a tube driver is employed to drive a train from Point A to Point E via Points B, C and D. Doing that job in July 2012 was no different from doing it in July 2011. On that basis, why have an uplift?

Or, for a slightly different take on it, if the Tube enjoys a windfall because there are more passengers than usual, why shouldn't the drivers have a share in it?
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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The point I'm getting at is that a tube driver is employed to drive a train from Point A to Point E via Points B, C and D. Doing that job in July 2012 was no different from doing it in July 2011. On that basis, why have an uplift?

No different? Really? When there are enormous numbers of visitors and it's extremely important that they get to specific locations on time - not just for them, but for the reputation of the city?

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Which is exactly the point! They, and the tube drivers, are all earning more (for the company they work for) so they should, IMNSHO, be rewarded for this.

So I take it you're happy for drivers of mostly empty trains to take home 50p, then?
Nope – if the tube bosses have half a brain between them, then their business model will include nearly empty trains, and the drivers’ wages will be worked out on that basis.
A large influx of passengers over and above the norm caused by eg the Olympics, will make substantially more money for the business. No doubt their business model for that year will include that as part of the profit they intend to pay themselves / shareholders.

Can anyone justify why the drivers etc shouldn’t share in that substantial extra income?

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:


Can anyone justify why the drivers etc shouldn’t share in that substantial extra income?

Isn't market capitalism based on that very basis? It exists so that the owners make money, not the workforce or customers.

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Voters would need to be convinced of that first.

Stop the 24/7 anti-union propaganda for a while and people would soon figure it out.
No, they wouldn't. All of the men in my family were union members at one time. Most of them don't like unions at all. The ones who appreciate the benefits of unions (including a cousin who is a union steward) recognize the problems they cause as well.

I'll give you an example not family related. My last parish needed some masonry work done. The junior warden was a professional carpenter well acquainted with the tradesman in the area. He solicited three bids. The first was from a big restoration company that was a bit higher than the others. The second bid was from a union mason using all union labor. It was about $4,000 more than the third bid from a non-union mason using non-union contractors. I asked the junior warden, who was very good friends with both men, if the guy offering the cheaper bid was truly as good at his job. The junior warden replied that the guy offering the cheaper bid actually had more experience because the union guy spent more time doing work for the union than actual masonry. Again, the union guy was a friend of the junior warden and several of the other vestry members. He even came to church events on some occasions. We went with the cheaper bid. The work was excellent and on time.

At best, a union of skilled tradespeople can assure the public that they are paying extra money for better work. However, experienced tradesman don't find union membership worth the costs. If unions can't guarantee unionized skilled laborers are better than non-union skilled laborers, what do they have to offer in the way of low skilled workers? Not much of anything. They can only force employers to pay above market wage for a job that they employers could train anybody to do. As for the general public, why would they want to pay more money when a product of equal quality can be produced cheaper just because unions are driving up the cost of production?

It would be different if unions owned and ran their own shops. A guild that encompassed both management and labor would have something to offer all involved. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Personally, I favor raising the minimum wage to a living wage indexed to inflation, economic nationalism, and limits on immigration amongst other things.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Which is exactly the point! They, and the tube drivers, are all earning more (for the company they work for) so they should, IMNSHO, be rewarded for this.

So I take it you're happy for drivers of mostly empty trains to take home 50p, then?
Nope – if the tube bosses have half a brain between them, then their business model will include nearly empty trains, and the drivers’ wages will be worked out on that basis.
A large influx of passengers over and above the norm caused by eg the Olympics, will make substantially more money for the business. No doubt their business model for that year will include that as part of the profit they intend to pay themselves / shareholders.

Can anyone justify why the drivers etc shouldn’t share in that substantial extra income?

Sounds like you want to keep your cake and eat it too. Tube workers are paid a set salary for doing a job. If the tube workers want an increase in pay when the trains are full, then it is only fair they receive less when the trains are empty.

quote:
originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The workplace is rigged in the interest of shareholders and managers, against those of workers and customers; ie the few over the many.

Problem is managers are also customers and shareholders are both workers and customers.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
[Sounds like you want to keep your cake and eat it too. Tube workers are paid a set salary for doing a job. If the tube workers want an increase in pay when the trains are full, then it is only fair they receive less when the trains are empty.

Tube workers are paid* for the balance of load for a typical year, not for the massive influx caused by a once in a career event.

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Really? Is that what their contract says? I've never seen the guy driving the tube/subway. What difference does it make how many people are on the train? Either the workers want to be paid based on the number of people riding the train or a stable salary.

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