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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Europe 1914/2014 spot the difference
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Happily there are many .
Although having woken up to the news this morning that popular Nationalism is on the rise within Europe I am reminded of one mildly alarming similarity.
Is this the beginning of the end for the dream of European Unity ? Personally I hope not . The trouble is , as it was in 1914 , one person holding their hand up in the face of a mudslide won't make any impact whatsoever on the course of future events.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think the problem is one of poor communication about the EU.
I watched the usual politicians' debate here in France last night. If I heard correctly, one contributor pointed out that a majority of Front National voters were in favour of a European defence policy despite voting for an opt-out party, which suggests a certain degree of confusion about just what is being proposed.
During the broadcast an acquaintance phoned rejoicing in the FN win and the expectation that "things would change now" in France, which suggests a degree of confusion too.
The first politician to comment accurately (from my perspective) on what the elections were actually all about (the EU) was José Bové, the Green party's moustachio'd Astérix-like figure more usually in the news for trashing McDonalds outlets or destroying Monsanto crops. Until the mainstream becomes as clear as him in communicating about the EU, we can expect more extremist votes.
Similarly, on this morning's national news, the actual result of the elections in terms of the European parliament was mentioned almost as an afterthought, right at the end of a much longer piece along the lines of "!!oh noes! the FN has a quarter of the vote" and the usual bout of navel-gazing from the mainstream politicians.
I'm convinced the media have a distorting and magnifying effect on the rise of extremist parties, because it makes for sexier "news" coverage.
[ 26. May 2014, 08:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I for one do hope that this marks the end of political and economic intergration. It was a bad idea from the start. I voted for the nationalist party (Perussuomalaiset) here in Finland. I'm not convinced that there are many comparisons one can make with 1914.
[ 26. May 2014, 09:05: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
This party ?
The one where:
quote:
In December 2011, an opinion poll revealed 51% of True Finn voters agreed with the statement, "People of certain races are unsuited for life in a modern society."
Do you share that view ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I don't think that's a view shared by the party and neither do I share it. They are a moderate nationalist party, believing that Finland should decide its own affairs.
[ 26. May 2014, 09:53: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It does look like they need to screen their MPs a little more carefully.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chas of the Dicker
Apprentice
# 12769
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Posted
Who is doing the thinking about a Christian future in (not for ) Europe?
[code]
[ 26. May 2014, 15:30: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 35 | From: Hastings, East Sussex, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chas of the Dicker:
Who is doing the thinking about a Christian future in (not for ) Europe?
[code]
Why should anyone?
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm convinced the media have a distorting and magnifying effect on the rise of extremist parties, because it makes for sexier "news" coverage.
Yes there is indeed a large element of that . I usually avoid news and newspapers , other than than regular bout of radio trivia in the work place . I have however caught myself up in this business of the rise in the extremist vote.
Comparisons with 1914 are of course a little off the wall. Suppose I just got thinking about National fervour, and how it has a habit of getting swept along with it's own momentum.
No sane person would ever want to see a major conflict on European soil again . Yet one slightly interesting thought I had was that, if you reckon in the Cold war , Europe has only really had 25 years whereby it hasn't either been planning for the event of home-soil conflict or actually undergoing one.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
While it is easy to classify all of the far-right parties together, there are two very distinct groups, which is hopeful.
1. There is the FN from France, who are eurosceptic, but wanting to change and destroy within.
2. There is UKIP from the UK who will not, apparently, talk to FN, because they do not want to work within the EU (just to take their paychecks, not to actually do anything).
While the far right are divided, they represent less of a danger. TBH, I doubt that UKIP could organise a proverbial brewery drinking session, they are so argumentative. I suspect that other groups who are united simply by their dislike of the EU will struggle to do much of significance.
Should they find someone to unite them who is as charismatic as Hitler to unite them, they would be a danger. I believe when people see just how incapable of actually doing anything UKIP are, their vote will drop.
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take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I'm watching Belgium. Carefully.
They had their national elections as well as the European one, and the result is not good.
The Dutch speakers have elected the right wingers and the French speakers the left. In a country where there has recently been an attack on the Jewish museum there is neo fascism about too.
If it all kicks off it could start in Belgium.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There is UKIP from the UK who will not, apparently, talk to FN, because they do not want to work within the EU (just to take their paychecks, not to actually do anything).
I think UKIP won't talk to the FN because UKIP has invested a considerable amount of time and effort in trying to persuade people they aren't a racist party, and allying themselves with the FN would undo all of that.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
While it is easy to classify all of the far-right parties together, there are two very distinct groups, which is hopeful.
I think there are quite a few groups ...
There are the scarily freaking insane neo-Nazi groups in Eastern Europe, of which I think only Jobbik (Hungary) and Golden Dawn (Greece) have got seats in Strasbourg. Most of these hate each other. Hungarian nationalism, for example, is defined as much in opposition to Slovak nationalism as it is by anti-Semitism. The rest of the far-right won't i think touch them with a bargepole because there are degrees of nationalism just like everything else,
Conversely you could probably build up a coalition between the French National Front, the Austrian and Dutch Freedom Parties, and the Danish People's Party, because all of those agree that European Values are Good and Islam is Bad and must be curbed.
UKIP are perhaps an oddity in that although many of their members would undoubtedly like to join such a group, I think their leadership would prefer to bolster the party's mainstream appeal.
Also, a lot of the surge in Euroscepticism has come from the left, especially in the Mediterranean - Syriza in Greece, Five Star Movement in Italy, Podemos in Spain. On the European level, Euroscepticism should not be confused with nationalism.
[ 27. May 2014, 17:53: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
There is UKIP from the UK who will not, apparently, talk to FN, because they do not want to work within the EU (just to take their paychecks, not to actually do anything).
I think UKIP won't talk to the FN because UKIP has invested a considerable amount of time and effort in trying to persuade people they aren't a racist party, and allying themselves with the FN would undo all of that.
Conversely, the FN has been going for years with solid support and this is the first time UKIP has led anything. The FN leaders probably see UKIP as a bunch of upstarts. And English to boot.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The FN leaders probably see UKIP as a bunch of upstarts. And English to boot.
All of which shows just how easily Europe can be reduced to discord if countries go there own way and sucumb to non-moderate leadership.
We all tend to think that a return to European neighbour disharmony can never happen . Just as, 100 years ago, a major conflict right at the heart of Europe was unthinkable to most.
Recent election results hints the 'never', in terms of future discord, has inched towards the 'could' . Those at the helm of our EU dreamboat are taking a risk if they remain deaf to mutterings below deck.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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